Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things easy, we
did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really regretting it due to high
heating and cooling costs. My original plans were to stucco the outside
of the block. It looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to
put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. Besides the
obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and do
something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to
allow room for the foam panels. I know the foam panels aren't the best
insulation, but it would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8"
block (about 1.11 r-value).

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
the block walls. Or maybe the foam panels outside with something else
besides stucco covering it? I suppose it doesn't have to look as nice
as I had hoped since only the front with 2 garage doors will really
show. With the garage doors covering most of the square footage of the
front wall, I could still just stucco that part right over the block.
What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam on the inside and
cover it with drywall. But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like
fun? What if the drywall was glued onto the foam panels which is also
glued to the block, and just had a few screws to hold until the glue set
up. I'm picturing blue screws with fender washers, not a pretty sight,
but it is just a garage/workshop.

Open to all... well, MOST suggestions.

On Nov 2, 12:03*pm, Tony wrote:
Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things easy, we
did the whole 1st floor block. *Now I'm really regretting it due to high
heating and cooling costs. *My original plans were to stucco the outside
of the block. *It looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to
put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. *Besides the
obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and do
something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to
allow room for the foam panels. *I know the foam panels aren't the best
insulation, but it would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8"
block (about 1.11 r-value).

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
the block walls.

Really your most cost effective option.

snip

Given your problem I would contact an Icynene installer and price out
2 x 4 framing with 3 1/2" foam filling behind drywall (INSIDE). The
way higher insulating value of such an installation will definitely
have a reasonable payback period compared with the limited options you
could do other wise. Your personal tax expert could also advise you of
energy tax credits available to sweeten the project cost.
Once the framing is in place you can add electrical outlets, water
lines, air lines, whatever, prior to the foam operation. From an
appearance standpoint this is also a win-win situation as no external
changes will be obvious to your tax assessor.
Forget about the attitude that it is 'only' a garage/workshop'. For
the hours you will spend there, there is no common sense reason not to
have heat and AC. My little 26' x 26' shop is heated/cooled and there
is no way I would do otherwise. Projects get done more quickly, tools
don't rust from excess humidity and list goes on. The shop is a major
utility at our house, like laundry. And a money saver to boot.

snip

Joe

On Nov 2, 10:03*am, Tony wrote:
Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things easy, we
did the whole 1st floor block. *Now I'm really regretting it due to high
heating and cooling costs. *My original plans were to stucco the outside
of the block. *It looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to
put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. *Besides the
obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and do
something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to
allow room for the foam panels. *I know the foam panels aren't the best
insulation, but it would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8"
block (about 1.11 r-value).

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
the block walls. *Or maybe the foam panels outside with something else
besides stucco covering it? *I suppose it doesn't have to look as nice
as I had hoped since only the front with 2 garage doors will really
show. *With the garage doors covering most of the square footage of the
front wall, I could still just stucco that part right over the block.
What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam on the inside and
cover it with drywall. *But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like
fun? *What if the drywall was glued onto the foam panels which is also
glued to the block, and just had a few screws to hold until the glue set
up. *I'm picturing blue screws with fender washers, not a pretty sight,
but it is just a garage/workshop.

Open to all... well, MOST suggestions.

The "fix" (or fixes) at this point depend heavily on environmental
conditions where the garage is located.
AZ or OR...(I'm too lazy to look up your IP address)

Who did the design & who signed off on the plans? Did the designer
know the garage was to be heated & cooled?
How much of the garage is actually below grade?

The key to how successful the fix you choose is............. how well
it handles the local moisture conditions. Just throwing up some
insulation & drywall may cause more problems.

btw are the blocks filled or hollow? If currently hollow, filling
with perlite "might" be an alternative but I doubt it will improve
the situation a great deal.

Just a SWAG but I think (if unfilled) you'll go from an R of about
1.5 to maybe 5 by adding perlite.

If the blocks are filled (grouted) you've got an R of about .6
and no way to add cavity insulation.


good luck

cheers
Bob

Tony wrote:

What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam
on the inside and cover it with drywall.

That's the norm where I live.

But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like fun?

Uhhh...one attaches 3/4 x 1 1/2 PT to the block wall. Air nailer works
nice.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:56:50 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote:

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
the block walls.

Really your most cost effective option.

snip

Given your problem I would contact an Icynene installer and price out
2 x 4 framing with 3 1/2" foam filling behind drywall (INSIDE). The
way higher insulating value of such an installation will definitely
have a reasonable payback period compared with the limited options you
could do other wise. Your personal tax expert could also advise you of
energy tax credits available to sweeten the project cost.

Inside " Icynene" was my first thought. DAGS images for walls.

Forget all the outside stucco stuff -

Joe wrote:
On Nov 2, 12:03 pm, Tony wrote:
Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things
easy, we did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really regretting
it due to high heating and cooling costs. My original plans were
to stucco the outside of the block. It looks like 10 times the
work and a lot more money to put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then
wire lath, then stucco. Besides the obvious I'd have to tear out
and redo 3 windows, one door, and do something up top were the
stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to allow room for the foam
panels. I know the foam panels aren't the best insulation, but it
would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8" block (about
1.11 r-value).

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the
inside of the block walls.

Really your most cost effective option.

snip

Given your problem I would contact an Icynene installer and price out
2 x 4 framing with 3 1/2" foam filling behind drywall (INSIDE). The
way higher insulating value of such an installation will definitely
have a reasonable payback period compared with the limited options
you could do other wise. Your personal tax expert could also advise
you of energy tax credits available to sweeten the project cost. Once
the framing is in place you can add electrical outlets, water lines,
air lines, whatever, prior to the foam operation. From an appearance
standpoint this is also a win-win situation as no external changes
will be obvious to your tax assessor. Forget about the attitude that
it is 'only' a garage/workshop'. For the hours you will spend there,
there is no common sense reason not to have heat and AC. My little
26' x 26' shop is heated/cooled and there is no way I would do
otherwise. Projects get done more quickly, tools don't rust from
excess humidity and list goes on. The shop is a major utility at our
house, like laundry. And a money saver to boot.

By saying that it is "only" a garage/workshop was referring to the looks
of tapcons and fender washers. My last garage/workshop had heat and A/C
also and I don't consider it a luxury.

I called the 2 closest Icynene dealers (43 and 44 miles away) and I am
waiting for rough over the phone estimates, then next would be an on
site estimate, or maybe a price quote?

I understand the reasoning why the Icynene is so much better because it
fills in cracks and stops air infiltration, but in my last stick built
garage I believe I insulated it better than 99.9% of contractors, paying
very much attention and detail for the fiberglass to expand properly and
sealing off air infiltration and air convection currents on both sides
of the insulation. That was 24x32 sq', up in PA, and heat cost me $100
to $175 per winter. That was with a oil/hot air furnace from a mobile
home. It was left at 50-55F unoccupied and about 65 or more when
working in there. What I'm trying to say is that if I do fiberglass
myself, it will be far better than in the fiberglass/Icynene comparisons.

I'm still looking for an affordable heater that is approved for garage
use. In the old one I suppose I was lucky the place never burnt or the
insurance company could have blamed the non code heater. I have a
mobile home LP heater sitting in there, trying to find out if the
insurance company will approve its use. (like my other posts, there is
no building code to follow, I only have to go by what my insurance
company says.

DD_BobK wrote:
On Nov 2, 10:03 am, Tony wrote:
Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things easy, we
did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really regretting it due to high
heating and cooling costs. My original plans were to stucco the outside
of the block. It looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to
put 1/2" or 3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. Besides the
obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and do
something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl soffit to
allow room for the foam panels. I know the foam panels aren't the best
insulation, but it would triple or quadruple the current r-value of 8"
block (about 1.11 r-value).

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
the block walls. Or maybe the foam panels outside with something else
besides stucco covering it? I suppose it doesn't have to look as nice
as I had hoped since only the front with 2 garage doors will really
show. With the garage doors covering most of the square footage of the
front wall, I could still just stucco that part right over the block.
What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam on the inside and
cover it with drywall. But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like
fun? What if the drywall was glued onto the foam panels which is also
glued to the block, and just had a few screws to hold until the glue set
up. I'm picturing blue screws with fender washers, not a pretty sight,
but it is just a garage/workshop.

Open to all... well, MOST suggestions.

The "fix" (or fixes) at this point depend heavily on environmental
conditions where the garage is located.
AZ or OR...(I'm too lazy to look up your IP address)

East Tennessee.


Who did the design & who signed off on the plans?

I did. We have no building code.

Did the designer
know the garage was to be heated & cooled?

He was a numb nuts and didn't think ahead.

How much of the garage is actually below grade?

Less then 1/4... about 1/6th.

The key to how successful the fix you choose is............. how well
it handles the local moisture conditions. Just throwing up some
insulation & drywall may cause more problems.

Before the soil was graded, after some very heavy rains, 3 blocks showed
moisture. Since the grading was finished, and still no gutter it hasn't
got wet and we had some very heavy rains. It will have gutters soon anyway.

btw are the blocks filled or hollow? If currently hollow, filling
with perlite "might" be an alternative but I doubt it will improve
the situation a great deal.

Every 4' is rebar and filled with concrete. On the side that is about
1/2 under grade is 12" block. I had some extra concrete and rebar so
that wall is filled every 2'.


Just a SWAG but I think (if unfilled) you'll go from an R of about
1.5 to maybe 5 by adding perlite.

I was looking for this figure on a web page and couldn't find it. Even
if all of it was filled with perlite, it's hard to believe it making
that much difference, but that's just my guess.

dadiOH wrote:
Tony wrote:

What about not framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam
on the inside and cover it with drywall.

That's the norm where I live.

But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound like fun?

Uhhh...one attaches 3/4 x 1 1/2 PT to the block wall. Air nailer works
nice.

That makes sense, can you tell I'm not a builder? ;-)

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:56:50 -0800 (PST), Joe wrote:

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the inside of
the block walls.
Really your most cost effective option.

snip
Given your problem I would contact an Icynene installer and price out
2 x 4 framing with 3 1/2" foam filling behind drywall (INSIDE). The
way higher insulating value of such an installation will definitely
have a reasonable payback period compared with the limited options you
could do other wise. Your personal tax expert could also advise you of
energy tax credits available to sweeten the project cost.

Inside " Icynene" was my first thought. DAGS images for walls.

I'm waiting for estimates

Forget all the outside stucco stuff -

The only reason I considered outside stuff was from some posts here
regaurding different insuating technics for heavy mass wall. Forgetting
that idea and putting stucco directly on the block will be much easier
and less expensive then having to deal with wire lath.

Ah, I got some info now. For Icynene brand foam on 2x4 walls, with 1/2"
gap between the 2x4 wall and the block wall.

A) $1.35 square foot
B) $1.20 square foot

"A" was a guestimate from the secretary, she wasn't quite sure.

I talked shop with "B" and he also stated that they don't subtract
square feet for windows and doors except for the front where there is
more garage door square footage then wall square footage. The time they
spend taping windows and doors evens out with the extra labor. Sounds
like a good family owned and run business.

Does anyone here know what they charge in your area? Maybe other brands?

Contact a local foam insulation contractor to get a quote on
injecting expanding foam into the block cells. This is a normal
installation on commercial work. It involves drilling small holes
above and below any trough blocks in every block cell line. The
foam looks strange as it oozes out of the holes, but once cured
and cut off flush with the block face it is undetectable, ready
for paint.

Very cost effective.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"Tony" wrote in message
...
Part of my garage was going to be below grade so to make things
easy, we did the whole 1st floor block. Now I'm really
regretting it due to high heating and cooling costs. My
original plans were to stucco the outside of the block. It
looks like 10 times the work and a lot more money to put 1/2" or
3/4" foam panels, then wire lath, then stucco. Besides the
obvious I'd have to tear out and redo 3 windows, one door, and
do something up top were the stucco would now meet the vinyl
soffit to allow room for the foam panels. I know the foam
panels aren't the best insulation, but it would triple or
quadruple the current r-value of 8" block (about 1.11 r-value).

My other choices of course include framing and insulation the
inside of the block walls. Or maybe the foam panels outside
with something else besides stucco covering it? I suppose it
doesn't have to look as nice as I had hoped since only the front
with 2 garage doors will really show. With the garage doors
covering most of the square footage of the front wall, I could
still just stucco that part right over the block. What about not
framing out the inside, gluing 1" foam on the inside and cover
it with drywall. But screwing drywall to block doesn't sound
like fun? What if the drywall was glued onto the foam panels
which is also glued to the block, and just had a few screws to
hold until the glue set up. I'm picturing blue screws with
fender washers, not a pretty sight, but it is just a
garage/workshop.

Open to all... well, MOST suggestions.