On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT), windcrest
wrote:

Edison (who was more of an inventor than a scientist) would not
let go of his prejudice for DC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Idiot. It is prejudice AGAINST AC.

It is a derogatory term, so there is no prejudice FOR anything.

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 21:39:47 +0100, Stuart wrote:

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Have you had any experience with high frequency AC power systems?
I've come across 400hz AC power in some old computer installations
and seen a lot of military surplus aircraft power equipment that
used 400hz AC power. My assumption has always been that higher the
frequency, the smaller the mass of the transformers not only making
equipment smaller but lighter.

Very common (standard?) in aircraft.

Yes, silly. 400Hz is still the standard for aviation.

Use some sense. Why would they *downgrade* to a heavier system with
zero co-compatibility?

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.

On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:49:52 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Don Kelly wrote:

"windcrest" wrote in message
...
On Oct 6, 7:11 pm, "Don Kelly" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
...



Tom Horne wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:04 am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
James Sweet wrote:

My suggestion would be for a 48 volt DC system. Plain
old telephone service uses 48 volts DC for battery and
PoE, power over Ethernet is usually 48 volts DC. The
wire size could be smaller than that for a lower voltage
system and the 78xx type regulators are very inexpensive
and come in a variety of wattage ratings for stepping
down the voltages. The technology to pull it off is not
exotic and can be done with all off the shelf parts.
Solar and wind power could integrate quite easily with
such a system.
TDD
And what would be the advantage? The 78xx series are linear
regulators,
they are in effect a regulated resistor that burns up the excess
voltage
in the form of heat. On top of that, they max out at 37V input at
which
point a substantial heatsink is required to dissipate the heat.
The end
result is FAR less efficient than even the lousy iron class II
transformers found in most wall warts and small appliances.
You could use a switchmode regulator to get decent efficiency,
but once
you've gone that route, you may as well just use 120V or 240VAC
since
the additional components required are trivial.
Solar and wind power can easily integrate with the existing grid,
with
the additional advantage of being able to sell excess capacity
back to
the utility. The cost of the special inverter is low compared to
what
the panels cost, and dropping all the time. This proposed DC
system is
just reinventing the wheel with something inferior to what we
already
have.
I was thinking about it as an off the grid system. I would
imagine that a single high current DC to AC converter in the
battery room putting out standard AC power to a home would
be more practical than trying to reinvent all the appliances
and gadgetry. Tesla won the battle for the power distribution
system and I'm glad of it. There are those very high voltage
DC power transmission lines. I'm going to have to read up on
them and find out why they're using DC. It's been 20 years
since I worked on any high voltage power distribution systems.
Have you ever used a wooden hot stick? Make sure it's dry.

TDD

DC Power transmission lines are used to rid the line of skin effect
and allow the entire cross section of the conductor to carry current.
They are as yet only practical for long haul point to point
circuits.

--
Tom Horne

That's what I read. My only experience with high voltage power
transmission has been installing buried conduit, setting transformers,
making connections and splices on 15kv coaxial underground cable.
Of course there was all of the other wiring on the low voltage side
of the transformer including the facilities wiring. What I find
fascinating about the long haul high voltage DC power transmission
systems
has to do with the changes in technology over the years to handle the
conversion of AC to DC then back again. The early mercury arc
valve systems have got to be a sight to behold. I can imagine a mad
scientist wearing super thick lensed glasses cackling in the
background.

TDD

Even a 5Kw 6 phase converter was a sight to see- looked like an octopus
with glowing arms and a bright spot dancing on a dish of mercury.
Seriously the advantages of DC transmission has relatively little to
do with
skin effect as conductors are typically ACSR with aluminum on the outside
and steel inside- and, at these voltages are grouped in bundles. The size
of the conductor has more to do with mechanical than electrical
properties.
DC transmission at high voltages is economical for long lines where the
reduced cost of the line exceeds the added cost of the terminal
equipment.
There are also some other technical advantages . This breakeven point
is at
a much shorter distance for underground or underwater cable. DC back
to back
terminals are often used where frequency differences (e.g. in Japan with
both 50 and 60 Hz systems) or stability concerns arise. They do have the
disadvantage that reasonable and economic circuit breakers for DC don't
exist and this means that the system is essentially point to point rather
than through an interconnected grid. In addition, conversion from one
voltage level to the next is bloody expensive, awkward and inefficient
compared to the use of AC transformers.
At low voltages, even for relatively short distances, DC is not a viable
option.

--
Don Kelly

cross out to reply- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Thats why Westinghouse beat Edison in the early days of deciding what
electical distribution system to use, Westinghouse (scientist) wanted
AC, Edison (who was more of an inventor than a scientist) would not
let go of his prejudice for DC. I still have an old AC/DC radio from
those days, when radios were sold to work on either distribution
system.

Westinghouse was an inventor, and entrepreneur (as was Edison) - who
recognized good ideas when he saw them and a way to get around Edison's
stranglehold on the electrical "lighting" systems. This was weakened
before Tesla, by Gaulard and Gibbs who invented the transformer (1886
or thereabouts for the first AC transmission). - making long distance
transmission possible. polyphase machines invented by Tesla were the
icing on the cake, and 3 phase systems followed soon after. Edison
wanted to hang onto his empire- so fought tooth and nail against AC- he
had a good thing going. Tesla once worked for him but got shafted.
As for the radio- If I recall correctly, until the late 1920's all
radios were battery powered. Then AC/DC units came into use. Better
ones used transformers to get the various voltages, filament and plate
(replacing the old A and B batteries).
The typical smaller radios that were sold in the 40's and 50's would
work on DC as they did not have a transformer, and tubes operated on the
rectified line voltage, with tube filaments in series. This was done,
not with intent to use them on DC supplies but because they were
considerably cheaper to build but could have a hot chassis (safety?
what's that?).

The history of those times is very interesting. An often ignored
inventor who thought things out before trying them (as opposed to the
Edison approach) , was Elihu Thompson.


When I was a kid, I got hold of an old tube type record player
that had a metal chassis, for some reason when I was playing
around with it on the back porch of our house, I got lit up.
DANG!! This was long before two wire cords had a wide bladed
neutral. With all the electrical devices I played with when
I was a kid, I'm surprised I ever survived.

TDD


Somehow my hand ended up between the poles of a 10kV Jacob's ladder on
day, while sitting indian style in front of it.

It shot me back about seven feet (my legs). I am sure I clamped the
supply down to near nothing, since it was only a 10mA furnace ignition
transformer.

That one was phase independent. Surprised I survived my youth as well.
I made a shock box "lie detector" as a science project, and was
shocking parents with it... mostly. Back then, a kid could get away
with that stuff.

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.

I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

TDD

James Sweet wrote:


Have you had any experience with high frequency AC power systems?
I've come across 400hz AC power in some old computer installations
and seen a lot of military surplus aircraft power equipment that
used 400hz AC power. My assumption has always been that higher the
frequency, the smaller the mass of the transformers not only making
equipment smaller but lighter.

TDD


That's exactly it. 400Hz power has been standard in aircraft for many
decades. Not only are the transformers smaller and lighter, but the
generators and motors too, and the filter capacitors in power supplies.

It's the reason switchmode power supplies run in the tens of kHz, and
some small ones are running as high as 1MHz. As the frequency increases,
switching losses in the semiconductors increase, but the size of the
energy storage components (inductors, transformers, capacitors)
decreases. A 60Hz transformer capable of supplying 300W might 15 lbs,
but a 20kHz transformer capable of the same power is less than a pound
and far more compact.

The foreign 50hz stuff I've seen is a lot more massive than
my home grown 60hz equipment. I've worked on all sorts of
switching power supplies but I've never seen a 1Mhz unit.
Is it something that would be an aerospace/military item?

TDD

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:49:52 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Don Kelly wrote:
"windcrest" wrote in message
...
On Oct 6, 7:11 pm, "Don Kelly" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
...



Tom Horne wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:04 am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
James Sweet wrote:
My suggestion would be for a 48 volt DC system. Plain
old telephone service uses 48 volts DC for battery and
PoE, power over Ethernet is usually 48 volts DC. The
wire size could be smaller than that for a lower voltage
system and the 78xx type regulators are very inexpensive
and come in a variety of wattage ratings for stepping
down the voltages. The technology to pull it off is not
exotic and can be done with all off the shelf parts.
Solar and wind power could integrate quite easily with
such a system.
TDD
And what would be the advantage? The 78xx series are linear
regulators,
they are in effect a regulated resistor that burns up the excess
voltage
in the form of heat. On top of that, they max out at 37V input at
which
point a substantial heatsink is required to dissipate the heat.
The end
result is FAR less efficient than even the lousy iron class II
transformers found in most wall warts and small appliances.
You could use a switchmode regulator to get decent efficiency,
but once
you've gone that route, you may as well just use 120V or 240VAC
since
the additional components required are trivial.
Solar and wind power can easily integrate with the existing grid,
with
the additional advantage of being able to sell excess capacity
back to
the utility. The cost of the special inverter is low compared to
what
the panels cost, and dropping all the time. This proposed DC
system is
just reinventing the wheel with something inferior to what we
already
have.
I was thinking about it as an off the grid system. I would
imagine that a single high current DC to AC converter in the
battery room putting out standard AC power to a home would
be more practical than trying to reinvent all the appliances
and gadgetry. Tesla won the battle for the power distribution
system and I'm glad of it. There are those very high voltage
DC power transmission lines. I'm going to have to read up on
them and find out why they're using DC. It's been 20 years
since I worked on any high voltage power distribution systems.
Have you ever used a wooden hot stick? Make sure it's dry.
TDD
DC Power transmission lines are used to rid the line of skin effect
and allow the entire cross section of the conductor to carry current.
They are as yet only practical for long haul point to point
circuits.
--
Tom Horne
That's what I read. My only experience with high voltage power
transmission has been installing buried conduit, setting transformers,
making connections and splices on 15kv coaxial underground cable.
Of course there was all of the other wiring on the low voltage side
of the transformer including the facilities wiring. What I find
fascinating about the long haul high voltage DC power transmission
systems
has to do with the changes in technology over the years to handle the
conversion of AC to DC then back again. The early mercury arc
valve systems have got to be a sight to behold. I can imagine a mad
scientist wearing super thick lensed glasses cackling in the
background.

TDD
Even a 5Kw 6 phase converter was a sight to see- looked like an octopus
with glowing arms and a bright spot dancing on a dish of mercury.
Seriously the advantages of DC transmission has relatively little to
do with
skin effect as conductors are typically ACSR with aluminum on the outside
and steel inside- and, at these voltages are grouped in bundles. The size
of the conductor has more to do with mechanical than electrical
properties.
DC transmission at high voltages is economical for long lines where the
reduced cost of the line exceeds the added cost of the terminal
equipment.
There are also some other technical advantages . This breakeven point
is at
a much shorter distance for underground or underwater cable. DC back
to back
terminals are often used where frequency differences (e.g. in Japan with
both 50 and 60 Hz systems) or stability concerns arise. They do have the
disadvantage that reasonable and economic circuit breakers for DC don't
exist and this means that the system is essentially point to point rather
than through an interconnected grid. In addition, conversion from one
voltage level to the next is bloody expensive, awkward and inefficient
compared to the use of AC transformers.
At low voltages, even for relatively short distances, DC is not a viable
option.

--
Don Kelly

cross out to reply- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thats why Westinghouse beat Edison in the early days of deciding what
electical distribution system to use, Westinghouse (scientist) wanted
AC, Edison (who was more of an inventor than a scientist) would not
let go of his prejudice for DC. I still have an old AC/DC radio from
those days, when radios were sold to work on either distribution
system.

Westinghouse was an inventor, and entrepreneur (as was Edison) - who
recognized good ideas when he saw them and a way to get around Edison's
stranglehold on the electrical "lighting" systems. This was weakened
before Tesla, by Gaulard and Gibbs who invented the transformer (1886
or thereabouts for the first AC transmission). - making long distance
transmission possible. polyphase machines invented by Tesla were the
icing on the cake, and 3 phase systems followed soon after. Edison
wanted to hang onto his empire- so fought tooth and nail against AC- he
had a good thing going. Tesla once worked for him but got shafted.
As for the radio- If I recall correctly, until the late 1920's all
radios were battery powered. Then AC/DC units came into use. Better
ones used transformers to get the various voltages, filament and plate
(replacing the old A and B batteries).
The typical smaller radios that were sold in the 40's and 50's would
work on DC as they did not have a transformer, and tubes operated on the
rectified line voltage, with tube filaments in series. This was done,
not with intent to use them on DC supplies but because they were
considerably cheaper to build but could have a hot chassis (safety?
what's that?).

The history of those times is very interesting. An often ignored
inventor who thought things out before trying them (as opposed to the
Edison approach) , was Elihu Thompson.

When I was a kid, I got hold of an old tube type record player
that had a metal chassis, for some reason when I was playing
around with it on the back porch of our house, I got lit up.
DANG!! This was long before two wire cords had a wide bladed
neutral. With all the electrical devices I played with when
I was a kid, I'm surprised I ever survived.

TDD


Somehow my hand ended up between the poles of a 10kV Jacob's ladder on
day, while sitting indian style in front of it.

It shot me back about seven feet (my legs). I am sure I clamped the
supply down to near nothing, since it was only a 10mA furnace ignition
transformer.

That one was phase independent. Surprised I survived my youth as well.
I made a shock box "lie detector" as a science project, and was
shocking parents with it... mostly. Back then, a kid could get away
with that stuff.

I've been told that when I was an infant crawling around the house
back in the middle of the last century, I unplugged the power cord
from the bottom of my mother's Singer sewing machine. The other end
of the cord was still plugged into the wall outlet and being the
curious little brat that I was, decided to determine what a power
cord tasted like. I've been told that I turned blue and my diaper
had to be changed. Ever since then I've been getting in trouble for
things I've done with electricity. When I was a bit older, I would
build Frankenstein like machines in the basement and being no fool,
I would get one of my little brothers to plug it in while I took
cover behind something. It made my butt hurt for some reason.

TDD

On Mon, 5 Oct 2009 10:58:38 -0700 (PDT), windcrest
wrote:

The centralized system described will be drawing several amp-hours a
day just to keep the storage battery charged and it would have no
local control to actually save transformer idle consumption when
things are switched off or unplugged.


Use a satellite system then. Instead of a central DC battery "park".

Place a "Battery Station" on each branch, and charge each only at
night, when you are on off-peak rates. Rare daytime occasions are needed
where the charging circuit needs to be on during a particular device's
load duty. Run the fridge and the Air on AC still, and run the low
consumption branches on their respective DC satellites, where the battery
capacity for that branch relates to the loading your have set up on that
branch.
Adding loads may mean increasing a given satellite's battery station
capacity and a change to the charge/run software (of course).

This is an extension of my Hot Water On Demand system for only charging
the battery packs at night during off-peak hours, which do get monitored
on industrial customers. Far more efficient than AC Burns Watts On
Demand system that uses the most expensive AC power there is...
Peak Hour Usage.

Such a system would work in a household, but it would require
acceptance and implementation across a few industries to get the maximum
possible benefit from the idea. Otherwise, it ends up being a high cost
personal hobby.

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:00:01 -0500, krw wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:20:38 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:11:30 -0500, Jules
wrote:

There may still be a few tucked away in buildings with really old DC
elevators, although there can't be many left now that haven't been
updated.

cheers

Jules

I do not think there have been DC elevators in the US since the late
Thirties.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

http://science.slashdot.org/article....7/11/16/225213
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...thomas-edison/


"Still in use", and "Still being manufactured" are two different things,
dip****. Show me a modern nameplate date. Case closed.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:49:27 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:49:52 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Don Kelly wrote:
"windcrest" wrote in message
...
On Oct 6, 7:11 pm, "Don Kelly" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
...



Tom Horne wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:04 am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
James Sweet wrote:
My suggestion would be for a 48 volt DC system. Plain
old telephone service uses 48 volts DC for battery and
PoE, power over Ethernet is usually 48 volts DC. The
wire size could be smaller than that for a lower voltage
system and the 78xx type regulators are very inexpensive
and come in a variety of wattage ratings for stepping
down the voltages. The technology to pull it off is not
exotic and can be done with all off the shelf parts.
Solar and wind power could integrate quite easily with
such a system.
TDD
And what would be the advantage? The 78xx series are linear
regulators,
they are in effect a regulated resistor that burns up the excess
voltage
in the form of heat. On top of that, they max out at 37V input at
which
point a substantial heatsink is required to dissipate the heat.
The end
result is FAR less efficient than even the lousy iron class II
transformers found in most wall warts and small appliances.
You could use a switchmode regulator to get decent efficiency,
but once
you've gone that route, you may as well just use 120V or 240VAC
since
the additional components required are trivial.
Solar and wind power can easily integrate with the existing grid,
with
the additional advantage of being able to sell excess capacity
back to
the utility. The cost of the special inverter is low compared to
what
the panels cost, and dropping all the time. This proposed DC
system is
just reinventing the wheel with something inferior to what we
already
have.
I was thinking about it as an off the grid system. I would
imagine that a single high current DC to AC converter in the
battery room putting out standard AC power to a home would
be more practical than trying to reinvent all the appliances
and gadgetry. Tesla won the battle for the power distribution
system and I'm glad of it. There are those very high voltage
DC power transmission lines. I'm going to have to read up on
them and find out why they're using DC. It's been 20 years
since I worked on any high voltage power distribution systems.
Have you ever used a wooden hot stick? Make sure it's dry.
TDD
DC Power transmission lines are used to rid the line of skin effect
and allow the entire cross section of the conductor to carry current.
They are as yet only practical for long haul point to point
circuits.
--
Tom Horne
That's what I read. My only experience with high voltage power
transmission has been installing buried conduit, setting transformers,
making connections and splices on 15kv coaxial underground cable.
Of course there was all of the other wiring on the low voltage side
of the transformer including the facilities wiring. What I find
fascinating about the long haul high voltage DC power transmission
systems
has to do with the changes in technology over the years to handle the
conversion of AC to DC then back again. The early mercury arc
valve systems have got to be a sight to behold. I can imagine a mad
scientist wearing super thick lensed glasses cackling in the
background.

TDD
Even a 5Kw 6 phase converter was a sight to see- looked like an octopus
with glowing arms and a bright spot dancing on a dish of mercury.
Seriously the advantages of DC transmission has relatively little to
do with
skin effect as conductors are typically ACSR with aluminum on the outside
and steel inside- and, at these voltages are grouped in bundles. The size
of the conductor has more to do with mechanical than electrical
properties.
DC transmission at high voltages is economical for long lines where the
reduced cost of the line exceeds the added cost of the terminal
equipment.
There are also some other technical advantages . This breakeven point
is at
a much shorter distance for underground or underwater cable. DC back
to back
terminals are often used where frequency differences (e.g. in Japan with
both 50 and 60 Hz systems) or stability concerns arise. They do have the
disadvantage that reasonable and economic circuit breakers for DC don't
exist and this means that the system is essentially point to point rather
than through an interconnected grid. In addition, conversion from one
voltage level to the next is bloody expensive, awkward and inefficient
compared to the use of AC transformers.
At low voltages, even for relatively short distances, DC is not a viable
option.

--
Don Kelly

cross out to reply- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thats why Westinghouse beat Edison in the early days of deciding what
electical distribution system to use, Westinghouse (scientist) wanted
AC, Edison (who was more of an inventor than a scientist) would not
let go of his prejudice for DC. I still have an old AC/DC radio from
those days, when radios were sold to work on either distribution
system.

Westinghouse was an inventor, and entrepreneur (as was Edison) - who
recognized good ideas when he saw them and a way to get around Edison's
stranglehold on the electrical "lighting" systems. This was weakened
before Tesla, by Gaulard and Gibbs who invented the transformer (1886
or thereabouts for the first AC transmission). - making long distance
transmission possible. polyphase machines invented by Tesla were the
icing on the cake, and 3 phase systems followed soon after. Edison
wanted to hang onto his empire- so fought tooth and nail against AC- he
had a good thing going. Tesla once worked for him but got shafted.
As for the radio- If I recall correctly, until the late 1920's all
radios were battery powered. Then AC/DC units came into use. Better
ones used transformers to get the various voltages, filament and plate
(replacing the old A and B batteries).
The typical smaller radios that were sold in the 40's and 50's would
work on DC as they did not have a transformer, and tubes operated on the
rectified line voltage, with tube filaments in series. This was done,
not with intent to use them on DC supplies but because they were
considerably cheaper to build but could have a hot chassis (safety?
what's that?).

The history of those times is very interesting. An often ignored
inventor who thought things out before trying them (as opposed to the
Edison approach) , was Elihu Thompson.

When I was a kid, I got hold of an old tube type record player
that had a metal chassis, for some reason when I was playing
around with it on the back porch of our house, I got lit up.
DANG!! This was long before two wire cords had a wide bladed
neutral. With all the electrical devices I played with when
I was a kid, I'm surprised I ever survived.

TDD


Somehow my hand ended up between the poles of a 10kV Jacob's ladder on
day, while sitting indian style in front of it.

It shot me back about seven feet (my legs). I am sure I clamped the
supply down to near nothing, since it was only a 10mA furnace ignition
transformer.

That one was phase independent. Surprised I survived my youth as well.
I made a shock box "lie detector" as a science project, and was
shocking parents with it... mostly. Back then, a kid could get away
with that stuff.

I've been told that when I was an infant crawling around the house
back in the middle of the last century, I unplugged the power cord
from the bottom of my mother's Singer sewing machine. The other end
of the cord was still plugged into the wall outlet and being the
curious little brat that I was, decided to determine what a power
cord tasted like. I've been told that I turned blue and my diaper
had to be changed. Ever since then I've been getting in trouble for
things I've done with electricity. When I was a bit older, I would
build Frankenstein like machines in the basement and being no fool,
I would get one of my little brothers to plug it in while I took
cover behind something. It made my butt hurt for some reason.

TDD

That's your ass on fire because you are going to hell. :-]

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:33:43 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

One example, at random: LTC3555 three buck regulators, each 2.25MHz.

http://www.linear.com/pc/productDeta...C1773,P3 7856

NONE of ours did.

I'd be surprised if yours *worked*, DimBulb.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.

I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:27:26 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT), windcrest
wrote:

Edison (who was more of an inventor than a scientist) would not
let go of his prejudice for DC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Idiot. It is prejudice AGAINST AC.

It is a derogatory term, so there is no prejudice FOR anything.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice

Definition 2a: preconceived judgment or opinion

It has a negative connotation because it is preconceived, not because
what is preconceived is negative (or even AC).

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:02:34 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:00:01 -0500, krw wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:20:38 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:11:30 -0500, Jules
wrote:

There may still be a few tucked away in buildings with really old DC
elevators, although there can't be many left now that haven't been
updated.

cheers

Jules

I do not think there have been DC elevators in the US since the late
Thirties.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

http://science.slashdot.org/article....7/11/16/225213
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...thomas-edison/


"Still in use", and "Still being manufactured" are two different things,
dip****. Show me a modern nameplate date. Case closed.

Existed = have been. You said nothing about being manufactured,
DimBulb. You implied that they didn't exist.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:37:51 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:33:43 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

One example, at random: LTC3555 three buck regulators, each 2.25MHz.

http://www.linear.com/pc/productDeta...C1773,P3 7856

NONE of ours did.

I'd be surprised if yours *worked*, DimBulb.

Our power supply company survived after 911, a time when several
hundred other companies failed.

Those supplies were and are in a lot of the things you use because we
were OEMers for hundreds of companies as well.

You're an idiot, KeithTard.

Also, regardless of what the max frequency a regulator *can* operate
at, that does not mean that they get designed to operate there.

Folks engineer a supply on the bench, and the final most efficient
frequency a design runs at my not be the original estimation.
I would not expect you to get it though.

No... NONE of our units ran that fast. Magnetics tends to get
inefficient at passing power at too high a frequency. Our HV supplies
may have had switcher front ends, but they typically had a transformer
driven final feeding the multiplier stage. Most all were 100kHz.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:47:26 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 10:27:26 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT), windcrest
wrote:

Edison (who was more of an inventor than a scientist) would not
let go of his prejudice for DC.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Idiot. It is prejudice AGAINST AC.

It is a derogatory term, so there is no prejudice FOR anything.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice

Definition 2a: preconceived judgment or opinion

It has a negative connotation because it is preconceived, not because
what is preconceived is negative (or even AC).

A prejudice is usually something one has against something, not for it.

To be for something is to be "partial to" or "predispositioned for"
something.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:49:20 -0500, krw wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:02:34 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:00:01 -0500, krw wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:20:38 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 08:11:30 -0500, Jules
wrote:

There may still be a few tucked away in buildings with really old DC
elevators, although there can't be many left now that haven't been
updated.

cheers

Jules

I do not think there have been DC elevators in the US since the late
Thirties.

AlwaysWrong strikes again.

http://science.slashdot.org/article....7/11/16/225213
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...thomas-edison/


"Still in use", and "Still being manufactured" are two different things,
dip****. Show me a modern nameplate date. Case closed.

Existed = have been. You said nothing about being manufactured,
DimBulb. You implied that they didn't exist.


Good thing that you are the only one that used the word. I never said
anything about "existed". Though it is a shame that you do.

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.

I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.

My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.

Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.

They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?

Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.

What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.

James Sweet wrote:


My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD


While I don't condone is attitude, he is absolutely correct. MHz
switchers are common, have been in the field for years, and by the
demands for miniaturization are getting more common all the time. If you
don't believe me, pop open your PC, cell phone, PDA, etc and put a scope
on one of the DC-DC converters. Also with many of these chips, the
switching frequency is fixed and is not something the engineer has a
choice of. The duty cycle varies to regulate the output.

This is not something you'll find in the line operated power supply, but
applications like CPU core voltage which may have to supply less than 2V
at 50-80+ Amps (no, that's not a typo) from a 12V source where board
space is a valuable commodity, or applications needing extreme
miniaturization demand this sort of thing.

Thanks, I just looked at the products available from:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/

I've used their other products for years but I was not aware
of their switching regulator chips. The original discussion
concerned "SIMPLE" DC power supplies and some jerk chimed in
calling everyone stupid, etc. My experience has been with the
switching power supplies in computers and test gear which is
what I thought the discussion was about. I've never seen one
of those running at 1Mhz or more. A tiny regulator on a card
or motherboard running at 1Mhz or more is something new to me.
Heck, I learn something new everyday.

TDD

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.

What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.

Kid, I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.
Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF

TDD

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:56:24 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.

What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.

Kid,

See, you're always as wrong as AlwaysWrong.

I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.

Ohh, you must swing a mean mop.

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF

Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:51:14 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:


My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD


While I don't condone is attitude, he is absolutely correct. MHz
switchers are common, have been in the field for years, and by the
demands for miniaturization are getting more common all the time. If you
don't believe me, pop open your PC, cell phone, PDA, etc and put a scope
on one of the DC-DC converters. Also with many of these chips, the
switching frequency is fixed and is not something the engineer has a
choice of. The duty cycle varies to regulate the output.

This is not something you'll find in the line operated power supply, but
applications like CPU core voltage which may have to supply less than 2V
at 50-80+ Amps (no, that's not a typo) from a 12V source where board
space is a valuable commodity, or applications needing extreme
miniaturization demand this sort of thing.

Thanks, I just looked at the products available from:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/

I've used their other products for years but I was not aware
of their switching regulator chips. The original discussion
concerned "SIMPLE" DC power supplies and some jerk chimed in
calling everyone stupid, etc.

Only because you (and DimBulb) *ARE* stupid, stupid.

BTW stupid, you don't get much simpler than a (part of a) chip,
inductor, capacitor, and two resistors.

My experience has been with the
switching power supplies in computers and test gear which is
what I thought the discussion was about.

Stupid, Sweet just said they're used in the core supplies of PCs.
Though I suppose actually reading what people write is a bit beyond
you.

I've never seen one
of those running at 1Mhz or more. A tiny regulator on a card
or motherboard running at 1Mhz or more is something new to me.
Heck, I learn something new everyday.

Engage brain before mouth, stupid.

On Sep 28, 11:52*am, "Bill" wrote:
How about getting rid of all those batteries in various devices in the home
and connecting the battery connections to one central battery?

That is to run separate wires when wiring a home and these would carry say
12 volts DC. There would be a central large battery and battery charger like
the type used in a computer UPS.

Then at each electronic gizmo which needs a battery, use a "battery
eliminator" along with a voltage regulator to supply it with the correct
voltage. And plug this into a nearby 12 volts DC "outlet".

This could provide battery power to smoke detectors, carbon monoxide
detectors, HVAC thermostat, security system, clocks, digital thermometers,
computer UPS, phone answering machine, etc.

Then only ONE battery to worry about...

A 9 volt battery eliminator picture...http://www.wirelessmicrocolorcam.com....php?pID=47&os...

LIKE THE MAJORITY OF THE TROLLS THAT RESPOND TO THIS THIS IS THE MOST
IDIOTIC IDEA POSTED THESE PAST FEW WEEKS

LET IT GO !


I AM PROTEUS

On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:52:52 -0700, James Sweet
wrote:




I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.

I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

TDD


Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is
not in common use. Here's your citation, note that the article is dated
2002.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/view_press_r...release_id/586


"SMALLEST, 3V INPUT, 1MHz, 92% EFFICIENT DC-DC STEP-DOWN DELIVERS 10A"


So these are not off-line SMPS, but so what? They're still switchmode
power supplies by definition. TI and several others have similar parts.
It is very likely you have one right in front of you supplying the core
voltage to the CPU in your computer.


The chip we used was also capable of switching faster. Again, that
does NOT mean that a designer is going to operate at the max frequency
capability of a chip he is using... EVER!

Get a ****ing clue!

On Oct 11, 2:06*am, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:52:52 -0700, James Sweet
wrote:







* I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

* NONE of ours did.

I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

TDD

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is
not in common use. Here's your citation, note that the article is dated
2002.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/view_press_r...release_id/586

"SMALLEST, 3V INPUT, 1MHz, 92% EFFICIENT DC-DC STEP-DOWN DELIVERS 10A"

So these are not off-line SMPS, but so what? They're still switchmode
power supplies by definition. TI and several others have similar parts.
It is very likely you have one right in front of you supplying the core
voltage to the CPU in your computer.

* The chip we used was also capable of switching faster. *Again, that
does NOT mean that a designer is going to operate at the max frequency
capability of a chip he is using... EVER!

*Get a ****ing clue!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

YES WE SEE

YOU WEAR THE GOD DANGED CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER NOW

FAGGOT GET A LIFE OR LEAVE THIS ONE TO THOSE THAT CAN COPE

I AM PROTEUS

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 02:48:58 -0700 (PDT), Proteus IIV
wrote:

On Oct 11, 2:06*am, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:52:52 -0700, James Sweet
wrote:







* I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

* NONE of ours did.

I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

TDD

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is
not in common use. Here's your citation, note that the article is dated
2002.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/view_press_r...release_id/586

"SMALLEST, 3V INPUT, 1MHz, 92% EFFICIENT DC-DC STEP-DOWN DELIVERS 10A"

So these are not off-line SMPS, but so what? They're still switchmode
power supplies by definition. TI and several others have similar parts.
It is very likely you have one right in front of you supplying the core
voltage to the CPU in your computer.

* The chip we used was also capable of switching faster. *Again, that
does NOT mean that a designer is going to operate at the max frequency
capability of a chip he is using... EVER!

*Get a ****ing clue!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

YES WE SEE

YOU WEAR THE GOD DANGED CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER NOW

FAGGOT GET A LIFE OR LEAVE THIS ONE TO THOSE THAT CAN COPE

I AM PROTEUS

I sure hope they kill your account soon.

And when they do kill your account, which they will... I hope they
also kill the ability for your IP address to load up another account so
that you can abuse this group. You see... I will stop your pathetic
abuse... one way or the other, boy.

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:56:24 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.
What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.
Kid,

See, you're always as wrong as AlwaysWrong.

I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.

Ohh, you must swing a mean mop.

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF

Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.

Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF

TDD

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:51:14 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD

While I don't condone is attitude, he is absolutely correct. MHz
switchers are common, have been in the field for years, and by the
demands for miniaturization are getting more common all the time. If you
don't believe me, pop open your PC, cell phone, PDA, etc and put a scope
on one of the DC-DC converters. Also with many of these chips, the
switching frequency is fixed and is not something the engineer has a
choice of. The duty cycle varies to regulate the output.

This is not something you'll find in the line operated power supply, but
applications like CPU core voltage which may have to supply less than 2V
at 50-80+ Amps (no, that's not a typo) from a 12V source where board
space is a valuable commodity, or applications needing extreme
miniaturization demand this sort of thing.
Thanks, I just looked at the products available from:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/

I've used their other products for years but I was not aware
of their switching regulator chips. The original discussion
concerned "SIMPLE" DC power supplies and some jerk chimed in
calling everyone stupid, etc.

Only because you (and DimBulb) *ARE* stupid, stupid.

BTW stupid, you don't get much simpler than a (part of a) chip,
inductor, capacitor, and two resistors.

My experience has been with the
switching power supplies in computers and test gear which is
what I thought the discussion was about.

Stupid, Sweet just said they're used in the core supplies of PCs.
Though I suppose actually reading what people write is a bit beyond
you.

I've never seen one
of those running at 1Mhz or more. A tiny regulator on a card
or motherboard running at 1Mhz or more is something new to me.
Heck, I learn something new everyday.

Engage brain before mouth, stupid.


Oh yea, I forgot, you talk out the other end. FLNF

TDD

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:52:52 -0700, James Sweet
wrote:


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

TDD

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is
not in common use. Here's your citation, note that the article is dated
2002.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/view_press_r...release_id/586


"SMALLEST, 3V INPUT, 1MHz, 92% EFFICIENT DC-DC STEP-DOWN DELIVERS 10A"


So these are not off-line SMPS, but so what? They're still switchmode
power supplies by definition. TI and several others have similar parts.
It is very likely you have one right in front of you supplying the core
voltage to the CPU in your computer.


The chip we used was also capable of switching faster. Again, that
does NOT mean that a designer is going to operate at the max frequency
capability of a chip he is using... EVER!

Get a ****ing clue!

I'm assuming that running your design at a lower frequency would require
less RFI shielding. I've seen some designs that put out so much noise
that it interfered with everything else.

TDD

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:34:45 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:56:24 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.
What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.
Kid,

See, you're always as wrong as AlwaysWrong.

I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.

Ohh, you must swing a mean mop.

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF

Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.

Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF

I already told you ,Darling Dufus, I don't do mops or work inside
septic tanks. In particular, I don't want your job where they go
together.

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:35:31 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:51:14 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD

While I don't condone is attitude, he is absolutely correct. MHz
switchers are common, have been in the field for years, and by the
demands for miniaturization are getting more common all the time. If you
don't believe me, pop open your PC, cell phone, PDA, etc and put a scope
on one of the DC-DC converters. Also with many of these chips, the
switching frequency is fixed and is not something the engineer has a
choice of. The duty cycle varies to regulate the output.

This is not something you'll find in the line operated power supply, but
applications like CPU core voltage which may have to supply less than 2V
at 50-80+ Amps (no, that's not a typo) from a 12V source where board
space is a valuable commodity, or applications needing extreme
miniaturization demand this sort of thing.
Thanks, I just looked at the products available from:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/

I've used their other products for years but I was not aware
of their switching regulator chips. The original discussion
concerned "SIMPLE" DC power supplies and some jerk chimed in
calling everyone stupid, etc.

Only because you (and DimBulb) *ARE* stupid, stupid.

BTW stupid, you don't get much simpler than a (part of a) chip,
inductor, capacitor, and two resistors.

My experience has been with the
switching power supplies in computers and test gear which is
what I thought the discussion was about.

Stupid, Sweet just said they're used in the core supplies of PCs.
Though I suppose actually reading what people write is a bit beyond
you.

I've never seen one
of those running at 1Mhz or more. A tiny regulator on a card
or motherboard running at 1Mhz or more is something new to me.
Heck, I learn something new everyday.

Engage brain before mouth, stupid.


Oh yea, I forgot, you talk out the other end. FLNF

You _are_ always wrong, just like ALwaysWrong. Are you related, just
lovers, or perhaps both?

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:34:45 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:56:24 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.
What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.
Kid,
See, you're always as wrong as AlwaysWrong.

I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.
Ohh, you must swing a mean mop.

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF
Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.
Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF

I already told you ,Darling Dufus, I don't do mops or work inside
septic tanks. In particular, I don't want your job where they go
together.

How nice for you, neither do I. Try harder.

TDD

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:35:31 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:51:14 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD
While I don't condone is attitude, he is absolutely correct. MHz
switchers are common, have been in the field for years, and by the
demands for miniaturization are getting more common all the time. If you
don't believe me, pop open your PC, cell phone, PDA, etc and put a scope
on one of the DC-DC converters. Also with many of these chips, the
switching frequency is fixed and is not something the engineer has a
choice of. The duty cycle varies to regulate the output.

This is not something you'll find in the line operated power supply, but
applications like CPU core voltage which may have to supply less than 2V
at 50-80+ Amps (no, that's not a typo) from a 12V source where board
space is a valuable commodity, or applications needing extreme
miniaturization demand this sort of thing.
Thanks, I just looked at the products available from:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/

I've used their other products for years but I was not aware
of their switching regulator chips. The original discussion
concerned "SIMPLE" DC power supplies and some jerk chimed in
calling everyone stupid, etc.
Only because you (and DimBulb) *ARE* stupid, stupid.

BTW stupid, you don't get much simpler than a (part of a) chip,
inductor, capacitor, and two resistors.

My experience has been with the
switching power supplies in computers and test gear which is
what I thought the discussion was about.
Stupid, Sweet just said they're used in the core supplies of PCs.
Though I suppose actually reading what people write is a bit beyond
you.

I've never seen one
of those running at 1Mhz or more. A tiny regulator on a card
or motherboard running at 1Mhz or more is something new to me.
Heck, I learn something new everyday.
Engage brain before mouth, stupid.

Oh yea, I forgot, you talk out the other end. FLNF

You _are_ always wrong, just like ALwaysWrong. Are you related, just
lovers, or perhaps both?

When are you going to call me a Nazi? You just intimated that
I was a homosexual so go ahead, call me a Nazi. FLNF

TDD

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:51:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:34:45 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:56:24 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.
What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.
Kid,
See, you're always as wrong as AlwaysWrong.

I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.
Ohh, you must swing a mean mop.

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF
Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.
Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF

I already told you ,Darling Dufus, I don't do mops or work inside
septic tanks. In particular, I don't want your job where they go
together.

How nice for you, neither do I. Try harder.

But you have no choice. I understand; it's difficult for the mentally
infirm to find employment.

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:53:18 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:35:31 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:51:14 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator. Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF

TDD
While I don't condone is attitude, he is absolutely correct. MHz
switchers are common, have been in the field for years, and by the
demands for miniaturization are getting more common all the time. If you
don't believe me, pop open your PC, cell phone, PDA, etc and put a scope
on one of the DC-DC converters. Also with many of these chips, the
switching frequency is fixed and is not something the engineer has a
choice of. The duty cycle varies to regulate the output.

This is not something you'll find in the line operated power supply, but
applications like CPU core voltage which may have to supply less than 2V
at 50-80+ Amps (no, that's not a typo) from a 12V source where board
space is a valuable commodity, or applications needing extreme
miniaturization demand this sort of thing.
Thanks, I just looked at the products available from:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/

I've used their other products for years but I was not aware
of their switching regulator chips. The original discussion
concerned "SIMPLE" DC power supplies and some jerk chimed in
calling everyone stupid, etc.
Only because you (and DimBulb) *ARE* stupid, stupid.

BTW stupid, you don't get much simpler than a (part of a) chip,
inductor, capacitor, and two resistors.

My experience has been with the
switching power supplies in computers and test gear which is
what I thought the discussion was about.
Stupid, Sweet just said they're used in the core supplies of PCs.
Though I suppose actually reading what people write is a bit beyond
you.

I've never seen one
of those running at 1Mhz or more. A tiny regulator on a card
or motherboard running at 1Mhz or more is something new to me.
Heck, I learn something new everyday.
Engage brain before mouth, stupid.

Oh yea, I forgot, you talk out the other end. FLNF

You _are_ always wrong, just like ALwaysWrong. Are you related, just
lovers, or perhaps both?

When are you going to call me a Nazi? You just intimated that
I was a homosexual so go ahead, call me a Nazi.

You're clearly a Demonicrat. That's your style, stupid.

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:51:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
(snip)

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF
Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.
Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF
I already told you ,Darling Dufus, I don't do mops or work inside
septic tanks. In particular, I don't want your job where they go
together.
How nice for you, neither do I. Try harder.

But you have no choice. I understand; it's difficult for the mentally
infirm to find employment.

So what does FLNF stand for? Google was clueless.

--
aem sends, slightly curious....

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:28:25 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:51:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
(snip)

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF
Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.
Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF
I already told you ,Darling Dufus, I don't do mops or work inside
septic tanks. In particular, I don't want your job where they go
together.
How nice for you, neither do I. Try harder.

But you have no choice. I understand; it's difficult for the mentally
infirm to find employment.

So what does FLNF stand for? Google was clueless.

Finger Lakes National Forrest? Who knows with the Darling Dufus.

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:43:23 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 17:52:52 -0700, James Sweet
wrote:


I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.

TDD

Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is
not in common use. Here's your citation, note that the article is dated
2002.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/view_press_r...release_id/586


"SMALLEST, 3V INPUT, 1MHz, 92% EFFICIENT DC-DC STEP-DOWN DELIVERS 10A"


So these are not off-line SMPS, but so what? They're still switchmode
power supplies by definition. TI and several others have similar parts.
It is very likely you have one right in front of you supplying the core
voltage to the CPU in your computer.


The chip we used was also capable of switching faster. Again, that
does NOT mean that a designer is going to operate at the max frequency
capability of a chip he is using... EVER!

Get a ****ing clue!

I'm assuming that running your design at a lower frequency would require
less RFI shielding. I've seen some designs that put out so much noise
that it interfered with everything else.

TDD

Our pot core transformers resonated very nicely at around 56kHz, and
that was regardless of how the windings were configured.

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 15:51:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:34:45 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:56:24 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 19:52:36 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 18:04:29 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:30:57 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Archimedes' Lever wrote:
On Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:33:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Filter capacitors and inductors too. It's not uncommon for switching
power supplies to be above 1MHz, also to keep the size of components
(and costs) small.

...and transformers get *very* big at DC.
I want a citation that switchers are commonly running at and above
1MHz.

NONE of ours did.
I've never seen a switching power supply that ran at 1Mhz.
They're really not uncommon today. LTC has a pile of 'em. Hint:
ignore DimBulb. You won't learn anything from him. He's AlwaysWrong
and dumber than even you are.
My statement still stands. I've never seen a switching regulator
that ran at 1Mhz. Just because the chip is capable of 1Mhz does
not mean that that is the switching speed of the regulator.
Idiot. That is the switching speed of the regulator.

Most
of the design engineers I'm familiar with tend to be conservative.
They don't have a choice, darling dufus. The regulator switches at
2.25MHz, whether they're conservative or commie.

Your opinion is not that important. Opinions are like tailpipes,
everyone has one, except for those like you who have theirs transposed
with their induction system. FLNF
My opinion may not be important to you, but my facts are at least
facts. I do this stuff for a living, you? Clean septic systems?
...with a mop?
Oh my God, a professional actinic sphincter.
What you have your mop out? Looking for work?

I was wrong, you and DimBulb are made for each other.
Kid,
See, you're always as wrong as AlwaysWrong.

I can guarantee that if you and I entered the same industrial
site, I would be able to handle more of the systems than you could.
Ohh, you must swing a mean mop.

Don't get too arrogant, unless you're Superman. FLNF
Don't worry. I don't want your job, dummy.
Sorry Superman, you couldn't handle it. FLNF
I already told you ,Darling Dufus, I don't do mops or work inside
septic tanks. In particular, I don't want your job where they go
together.
How nice for you, neither do I. Try harder.

But you have no choice. I understand; it's difficult for the mentally
infirm to find employment.

It's a shame you're in such bad shape. I'm sure there are some
county or faith based organizations that could help you. Folks
in your condition deserve at the very least a chance and a hand
up.

TDD