Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit



" wrote in message
ps.com...
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ps.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William

You could be correct. I'm seeing this as something of a temporary setup. I
would assume that when your done with it, you'd simply reconnect the outlet
as it was.


" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit
with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to
three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then
from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet
using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ps.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William

On 8 Oct, 14:12, " wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:





Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In your first post you said "third floor". In your second you said
"attic".

Since you seem to be concerned about safety, I'm curious about your
use of the attic. Will your proposed use meet codes as far as egress,
other electrical wiring, etc? While I commend you for tying to hook up
the UPS in a complaint manner, will it be the only code compliant item
in the space?

wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

On Oct 8, 2:49 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 8 Oct, 14:12, " wrote:



On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In your first post you said "third floor". In your second you said
"attic".

Since you seem to be concerned about safety, I'm curious about your
use of the attic. Will your proposed use meet codes as far as egress,
other electrical wiring, etc? While I commend you for tying to hook up
the UPS in a complaint manner, will it be the only code compliant item
in the space?

The third floor is a converted attic. There is a full staircase,
drywall, tile floor, recessed lights, two dormers, 7' ceiling (with
sloped side walls) etc.

On Oct 8, 3:16 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

UPS was $800-- it's all rack mount equipment.

HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.


A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400, consume additional
electricity, and take up space. Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one. The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime. If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100. The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third
floor, which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS
(expensive, so I don't want to purchase another one). There is
already conduit going up to the third floor. What do I need to
properly (to-code) install a UPS protected outlet on the third
floor which shares the plug-in UPS in the basement? Is there a
code-compliant solution? Are you allowed to plug a cord into a
UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced to THHN, and then
into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet.
The outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to
support an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the
stars than the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are
more practical.


A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400, consume additional
electricity, and take up space. Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one. The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime. If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100. The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

Yes it is.

wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,
I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?
Thank you for your time,
William
PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.
It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.
I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.


A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400, consume additional
electricity, and take up space. Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one. The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime. If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100. The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

Just how much UPS capacity do you need up in the attic? If it is just
one or two PCs to control the server farm you seem to be keeping in the
basement, one of the $200 baby UPS units will be fine.

I'm no UPS expert, but IIRC, there is a limit to how far the load can be
from the electronics, and still be considered protected.

aem sends...

wrote:
On Oct 8, 2:49 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On 8 Oct, 14:12, " wrote:




On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

groups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In your first post you said "third floor". In your second you said
"attic".

Since you seem to be concerned about safety, I'm curious about your
use of the attic. Will your proposed use meet codes as far as egress,
other electrical wiring, etc? While I commend you for tying to hook up
the UPS in a complaint manner, will it be the only code compliant item
in the space?


The third floor is a converted attic. There is a full staircase,
drywall, tile floor, recessed lights, two dormers, 7' ceiling (with
sloped side walls) etc.

Hmmm,
For all the trouble, I'd just get another UPS box. UPS is good when
power failure ocurs, as a protector it won't do much if lightning
strikes. I have seen it many time in my working days(~40 years in the
field)

On 8 Oct, 16:00, " wrote:
On Oct 8, 2:49 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On 8 Oct, 14:12, " wrote:

On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In your first post you said "third floor". In your second you said
"attic".

Since you seem to be concerned about safety, I'm curious about your
use of the attic. Will your proposed use meet codes as far as egress,
other electrical wiring, etc? While I commend you for tying to hook up
the UPS in a complaint manner, will it be the only code compliant item
in the space?

The third floor is a converted attic. There is a full staircase,
drywall, tile floor, recessed lights, two dormers, 7' ceiling (with
sloped side walls) etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nothing in your list of amenities tells us anything about whether it
meets the applicable codes for the space. I'm not saying it does or
doesn't...only you can tell us that. I was merely pointing out that
you are be very diligent as per the running of this particular
circuit, which made me curious about how compliant the rest of the
space was.

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400,

Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS
anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these
days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are
you???

consume additional
electricity,

Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.

and take up space.

The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and
shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.

Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one.

Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10
years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of
any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a
couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes
on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20
minutes of battery remaining.

The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime.

Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30
years and even then it's probably a high estimate.

If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100.

What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a
dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are
building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant
UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors,
etc.

The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some
fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.

Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in
upstairs and get on with your life.

(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW
total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)

You should also check to see that he gets enough fiber!!




"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 8 Oct, 16:00, " wrote:
On Oct 8, 2:49 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On 8 Oct, 14:12, " wrote:

On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on
the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing
conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires
to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor,
then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC
outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is
all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third
floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so
I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit
going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code)
install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in
UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you
allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is
spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet.
The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to
support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such
things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In your first post you said "third floor". In your second you said
"attic".

Since you seem to be concerned about safety, I'm curious about your
use of the attic. Will your proposed use meet codes as far as egress,
other electrical wiring, etc? While I commend you for tying to hook up
the UPS in a complaint manner, will it be the only code compliant item
in the space?

The third floor is a converted attic. There is a full staircase,
drywall, tile floor, recessed lights, two dormers, 7' ceiling (with
sloped side walls) etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nothing in your list of amenities tells us anything about whether it
meets the applicable codes for the space. I'm not saying it does or
doesn't...only you can tell us that. I was merely pointing out that
you are be very diligent as per the running of this particular
circuit, which made me curious about how compliant the rest of the
space was.

Pete C. wrote:

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:


wrote:

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400,


Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS
anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these
days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are
you???


consume additional
electricity,


Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.


and take up space.


The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and
shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.


Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one.


Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10
years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of
any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a
couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes
on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20
minutes of battery remaining.


The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime.


Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30
years and even then it's probably a high estimate.


If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100.


What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a
dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are
building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant
UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors,
etc.


The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.


It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some
fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.

Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in
upstairs and get on with your life.

(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW
total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)
Hi,
Let me guess, OP'er came here to argue because he does not have real
something to do himself. If he has a wish list, dive in and do it
instead of wasting time arguing with everyone. Military installations
I used to work on went out some times with all that high tech redundancy.
As far as I remember no system has 100% up time. Maybe 99.9999%

HeyBub wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,
I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third
floor, which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS
(expensive, so I don't want to purchase another one). There is
already conduit going up to the third floor. What do I need to
properly (to-code) install a UPS protected outlet on the third
floor which shares the plug-in UPS in the basement? Is there a
code-compliant solution? Are you allowed to plug a cord into a
UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced to THHN, and then
into the house wiring?
Thank you for your time,
William
PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet.
The outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to
support an additional device and wiring.
It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the
stars than the $75 for a UPS.
I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are
more practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400, consume additional
electricity, and take up space. Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one. The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime. If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100. The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

Yes it is.

I was going to ask for the math on that but that would be feeding a troll.
--
Tom Horne

Tony Hwang wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:


wrote:

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400,


Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS
anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these
days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are
you???


consume additional
electricity,


Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.


and take up space.


The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and
shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.


Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one.


Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10
years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of
any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a
couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes
on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20
minutes of battery remaining.


The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime.


Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30
years and even then it's probably a high estimate.


If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100.


What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a
dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are
building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant
UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors,
etc.


The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.


It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some
fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.

Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in
upstairs and get on with your life.

(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW
total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)
Hi,
Let me guess, OP'er came here to argue because he does not have real
something to do himself. If he has a wish list, dive in and do it
instead of wasting time arguing with everyone. Military installations
I used to work on went out some times with all that high tech redundancy.
As far as I remember no system has 100% up time. Maybe 99.9999%

The "five 9s" i.e. 99.999% is the gold standard used most places.
Perhaps the military adds an extra decimal place. But that 0.001% is why
you also mirror / RAID all disks, do daily backups and send them off
site, have redundant power supplies on all your CPUs and storage,
redundant network links, etc. Perhaps the OP is planning on hosting a
pay net porn site that will loose money if it's down, in which case it
should be hosted at a real data center anyway.

deans,

I'm guessing that you know how to run wire, install outlet boxes and wire
outlets so my advice is to be sure that the attic outlet has a "red" cover
plate. Red is used to indicate the likelihood of electrical current when the
"power" is off.
I'd put an duplex outlet in the basement and one in the attic with wire
(14 ga.?) running between them via the conduit. Put red cover plates on both
outlets and plug the output of the UPS into the basement outlet. Voila, you
now have UPS available at both outlets.
Since you are interested in code, run this idea by the boys in town hall
before you do it. I bet red cover plates is all you need.

Dave M.

" wrote in message
ps.com...
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.



Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give
you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire
size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight
blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use,
you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to
your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular
receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's
special.

"David Martel" wrote in message
...
deans,

I'm guessing that you know how to run wire, install outlet boxes and
wire outlets so my advice is to be sure that the attic outlet has a "red"
cover plate. Red is used to indicate the likelihood of electrical current
when the "power" is off.
I'd put an duplex outlet in the basement and one in the attic with wire
(14 ga.?) running between them via the conduit. Put red cover plates on
both outlets "and plug the output of the UPS into the basement outlet."

You don't want to have a male plug to male plug extension. Instead of a
duplex in the basement, you'd use a motor plug, which is an outlet(inlet),
that has male prongs to receive the female end of your extension cord




Voila, you
now have UPS available at both outlets.
Since you are interested in code, run this idea by the boys in town hall
before you do it. I bet red cover plates is all you need.

Dave M.

On Oct 8, 6:44 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

wrote:

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400,

Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS
anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these
days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are
you???

consume additional
electricity,

Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.

and take up space.

The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and
shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.

Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one.

Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10
years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of
any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a
couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes
on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20
minutes of battery remaining.

The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime.

Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30
years and even then it's probably a high estimate.

If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100.

What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a
dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are
building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant
UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors,
etc.

The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some
fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.

Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in
upstairs and get on with your life.

(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW
total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)
Hi,
Let me guess, OP'er came here to argue because he does not have real
something to do himself. If he has a wish list, dive in and do it
instead of wasting time arguing with everyone. Military installations
I used to work on went out some times with all that high tech redundancy.
As far as I remember no system has 100% up time. Maybe 99.9999%

The "five 9s" i.e. 99.999% is the gold standard used most places.
Perhaps the military adds an extra decimal place. But that 0.001% is why
you also mirror / RAID all disks, do daily backups and send them off
site, have redundant power supplies on all your CPUs and storage,
redundant network links, etc. Perhaps the OP is planning on hosting a
pay net porn site that will loose money if it's down, in which case it
should be hosted at a real data center anyway.


"What planet do I come from?" Let's try a planet where people use
numbers instead of emotions to make decisions.

A search for "rack mount ups" at froogle.com sorted by relevance
prices the five most relevant at:
$825, $440, $490, $504 and $650

I clicked on the first one and it has a "670W Nominal Output Power",
and provides about 20 minutes of standby time at half load (325W)
which hardly seems excessive. My "kill-a-watt" meter puts my power
usage at just under 400W so I would get a little less than 20 minutes
with new batteries in the unit and less once the batteries age.

If you take the cheapest unit at $440 and pretend the wiring cost was
$140 you come to a $300 initial savings. If your discount rate is 8%
and the project life span is 10 years $300*1.08^10=$647.58.

$647.58 saved based on initial cost alone

Then take a look at batteries:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ription=42-101
Notice the manufacturer states that they are good from 3-5 years.
This makes since because it matches the life expectancy of lead-acid
car batteries and also matches my personal experience.

If the cost of the batteries+shipping for the unit is $50+ (and it is
more) two replacements over a 10 year life expectancy will add another
$100 or so to the total cost.

We are up to $747.58. If the additional UPS uses only 20W and 10W for
cooling 30W at $0.10 per kWh over 10 years comes to $263 which brings
us to about $1010 difference. If the space is free and somehow I have
overestimated by $260 we are still talking about a $750 difference.

If my math is wrong, please show me. Otherwise please help with my
ORIGINAL question. ... and NO ... I am not switching from rack mount
equipment to non-rack mount for a whole variety of reasons that are
even more off the topic of home repair than I have been drawn to by
the erroneous responses about UPS system TCO. Please answer the
original electrical question!

PS: I do have systems at a hosting facility. These systems do not
need to be at a colocation facility or they would be. JEEESH!!!!

On Oct 8, 7:27 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
" wrote in message

ps.com...



Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give
you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire
size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight
blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use,
you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to
your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular
receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's
special.

Thank you very much David, John, and RMB for attempting to help me
create a NEC complaint installation. I am going to proceed with
project "central UPS" as one poster put it. I am going to use a red
plate and a label from a labeling machine which states the receptacle
is connected to the basement UPS. I will use twist lock flanged
connectors (in the basement) and 12 AWG wire throughout.

One line explanations for hecklers:
=====================================
Anti-rackmount coalition: I have clients because I give them what they
want.
People who don't believe in discount rates: The miracle of compound
interest is real and I don't actually mind your disbelief because
someone has to pay all that interest.
UPS TCO math: I elaborated in my Pete C. reply post.
Derby Dad: I'll be sure and eat the high-fiber box to after consuming
the cereal contained therein.

On Oct 8, 9:07 pm, " wrote:
On Oct 8, 7:27 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give
you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire
size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight
blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use,
you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to
your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular
receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's
special.

Thank you very much David, John, and RMB for attempting to help me
create a NEC complaint installation. I am going to proceed with
project "central UPS" as one poster put it. I am going to use a red
plate and a label from a labeling machine which states the receptacle
is connected to the basement UPS. I will use twist lock flanged
connectors (in the basement) and 12 AWG wire throughout.

One line explanations for hecklers:
=====================================
Anti-rackmount coalition: I have clients because I give them what they
want.
People who don't believe in discount rates: The miracle of compound
interest is real and I don't actually mind your disbelief because
someone has to pay all that interest.
UPS TCO math: I elaborated in my Pete C. reply post.
Derby Dad: I'll be sure and eat the high-fiber box to after consuming
the cereal contained therein.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Oct 8, 9:07 pm, " wrote:
On Oct 8, 7:27 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give
you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire
size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight
blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use,
you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to
your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular
receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's
special.

Thank you very much David, John, and RMB for attempting to help me
create a NEC complaint installation. I am going to proceed with
project "central UPS" as one poster put it. I am going to use a red
plate and a label from a labeling machine which states the receptacle
is connected to the basement UPS. I will use twist lock flanged
connectors (in the basement) and 12 AWG wire throughout.

One line explanations for hecklers:
=====================================
Anti-rackmount coalition: I have clients because I give them what they
want.
People who don't believe in discount rates: The miracle of compound
interest is real and I don't actually mind your disbelief because
someone has to pay all that interest.
UPS TCO math: I elaborated in my Pete C. reply post.
Derby Dad: I'll be sure and eat the high-fiber box to after consuming
the cereal contained therein.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't recall saying anything about your fiber intake. I did,
however, ask a question about the code compliancy of your beautifully
finished attic.

Simpler than any of the above:

buy another damn $39 ups. jeeeeeeze...



steve


" wrote in message
ps.com...
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 6:44 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

wrote:

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400,

Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS
anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these
days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are
you???

consume additional
electricity,

Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.

and take up space.

The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and
shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.

Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one.

Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10
years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of
any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a
couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes
on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20
minutes of battery remaining.

The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime.

Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30
years and even then it's probably a high estimate.

If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100.

What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a
dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are
building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant
UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors,
etc.

The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some
fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.

Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in
upstairs and get on with your life.

(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW
total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)
Hi,
Let me guess, OP'er came here to argue because he does not have real
something to do himself. If he has a wish list, dive in and do it
instead of wasting time arguing with everyone. Military installations
I used to work on went out some times with all that high tech redundancy.
As far as I remember no system has 100% up time. Maybe 99.9999%

The "five 9s" i.e. 99.999% is the gold standard used most places.
Perhaps the military adds an extra decimal place. But that 0.001% is why
you also mirror / RAID all disks, do daily backups and send them off
site, have redundant power supplies on all your CPUs and storage,
redundant network links, etc. Perhaps the OP is planning on hosting a
pay net porn site that will loose money if it's down, in which case it
should be hosted at a real data center anyway.

"What planet do I come from?" Let's try a planet where people use
numbers instead of emotions to make decisions.

I use numbers as well, not emotions.


A search for "rack mount ups" at froogle.com sorted by relevance
prices the five most relevant at:
$825, $440, $490, $504 and $650

Rack mount UPS = same guts as non rack mount UPS in a rack mount case
for 2X the price. Try a non rack mount UPS on a $20 rack shelf, that's
what I've used for years and it performs perfectly.


I clicked on the first one and it has a "670W Nominal Output Power",
and provides about 20 minutes of standby time at half load (325W)
which hardly seems excessive. My "kill-a-watt" meter puts my power
usage at just under 400W so I would get a little less than 20 minutes
with new batteries in the unit and less once the batteries age.

If you take the cheapest unit at $440 and pretend the wiring cost was
$140 you come to a $300 initial savings. If your discount rate is 8%
and the project life span is 10 years $300*1.08^10=$647.58.

$647.58 saved based on initial cost alone

Again, you are not making rational choices for the UPS, you're going on
cosmetics. You can get a perfectly acceptable Trip-Lite brand 1KVA UPS
at Costco for $100 add a rack shelf from another source for $20 and
you're done.


Then take a look at batteries:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ription=42-101

First off, *never* buy replacement UPS batteries from the UPS
manufacturer, they are severely overpriced. Get replacement UPS
batteries from a local wholesale battery distributor, where they are
much cheaper for the same battery. I've used Mid State Battery in the
past and a set for a UPS rarely exceeded $40 with tax. The UPS is out of
warranty at that point so it's not like you have to use the "branded"
batteries to maintain warranty.

Notice the manufacturer states that they are good from 3-5 years.
This makes since because it matches the life expectancy of lead-acid
car batteries and also matches my personal experience.

Car batteries operate under very different conditions from UPS
batteries. Car batteries cycle from freezing temperatures to 150 degree
temperatures and back in the winter. Car batteries don't sit on a float
charger most of their life. Car batteries are called upon to produce
several hundred amps for 30 seconds and then recharge. There is pretty
much no valid comparison between UPS battery life and car battery life.


If the cost of the batteries+shipping for the unit is $50+ (and it is
more) two replacements over a 10 year life expectancy will add another
$100 or so to the total cost.

Again the life expectancy you are going by is not correct. It may be a
good number for a large corporation to use when replacing batteries in
hundreds of UPSes, but it's silly for a home user where you have a
couple UPSes and can easily load / runtime test them annually. As I
noted, the batteries in my big (1.42KVA) UPS are a decade old and still
performing perfectly under load.


We are up to $747.58. If the additional UPS uses only 20W and 10W for
cooling 30W at $0.10 per kWh over 10 years comes to $263 which brings
us to about $1010 difference. If the space is free and somehow I have
overestimated by $260 we are still talking about a $750 difference.

The standby consumption is the only place you're even close to reality,
and the $2.19/mo is pretty insignificant.


If my math is wrong, please show me. Otherwise please help with my
ORIGINAL question. ... and NO ... I am not switching from rack mount
equipment to non-rack mount for a whole variety of reasons that are
even more off the topic of home repair than I have been drawn to by
the erroneous responses about UPS system TCO. Please answer the
original electrical question!

If you want to waste money for some sort of ego / cosmetic reasons, by
all means feel free to do so, certainly people waste money of far more
silly things. Don't try to "cook the books" to try to justify the extra
cost for cosmetics as some sort of savings though.

My central server, network gear and a few other extraneous items along
with the big UPS are in a standard equipment rack in my garage. The rack
is used and was free, most of the equipment in it is not rack mount and
is on rack mount shelves, though the main ethernet switch is rack mount.

As for the original question:

NEC Article 645.10 "Disconnecting means" indicates that a means of
disconnecting power to all electronic equipment in the information
technology room must be provided as well as similar disconnecting means
for HVAC and closing smoke / fire dampers, and the controls must be
grouped and located at the principle exit doors.

NEC Article 645.11 indicates that a UPS of 750VA or lower capacity
installed within the information technology room is exempt from article
645.10 disconnecting means requirements.

These are the sections of the NEC that reference UPS systems, and
clearly aren't intended to be applied to a residential environment.
There are other articles for separately derived systems and multiple
power sources, none of which are directly applicable.

Ultimately it comes down to the discretion of your local building
official (AHJ) to interpret and apply the code and their own expertise
to determine what they will require / accept. Since there is no directly
applicable NEC code you are entirely at their mercy as to what they'll
let you do.

The AHJ may simply insist you use a separate UPS so that the
disconnecting means are clearly recognizable to the local fire
department responding to your server fire. They may accept the remote
outlets if the connections are entirely isolated in separate conduit
from the regular household circuits. It's entirely up to the AHJ and
nobody on the 'net can give you the precise answer.

The NEC is available online for your review, someone posted the link
here recently I believe.


PS: I do have systems at a hosting facility. These systems do not
need to be at a colocation facility or they would be. JEEESH!!!!

That's nice. Do you have a backup generator to keep things online for
more than the ~20 minutes of the UPS(es)? If not, that's a better place
to spend money than purty racks.

wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.


The use of flexible cord as part of the permanent wiring system of a
building is tightly constrained by the US NEC. Connecting alternative
power sources to circuits is not a use the code writers permitted and in
the absence of a specific permitted use it may not be used as permanent
wiring. Here is how you do what you want to do and still be code
compliant. This is the same connection scheme that will pass inspection
for supplying hard wired appliances such as heating equipment from a
portable generator.

You install a box that is equipped with a double pole double throw
(DPDT) switch that has a center off position. The switch should be
rated for the ampacity of the circuit. The two center terminals on each
side of the switch are the commons of each pole. Those common terminals
will supply the circuit to the third floor which will terminate in an
appropriate receptacle outlet. The two terminals that are connected to
the common when the switch is in it's up position will be connected to
the circuits normal source of supply. The other two terminals will be
connected to a flanged inlet which is a recessed male plug that you will
install beside the DPDT switch either in the same J-box or one
immediately adjacent to it. A regular cord of the same configuration as
the UPS receptacle outlet will connect between the receptacle on the UPS
and the flanged inlet on the junction box. In that way the flexible
cord is not part of the permanent wiring and you can transfer the
circuit to it's regular supply when the UPS needs servicing.

It will be argued that the flanged inlet and the use of the double pole
switch is overkill and that the same function can be accomplished by
just terminating the flexible cord into the j-box and using a common
three way switch. That is not true however because the three way switch
will bypass the TVSS protection that is built into the UPS because the
circuits neutral will not pass through the UPS under UPS operation.

A common three way switch will also allow the transfer of the load from
regular power to UPS too quickly. If it is a continuous duty UPS it may
have an output waveform that is out of phase with the utility power.
Being only an electrician myself I can only tell you that we were taught
during apprenticeship training that could be harmful to some loads.
That information may not be up to date because modern computers may be
more tolerant of such power fluctuations then the ones in service when I
was in training low these many years ago.
--
Tom Horne

wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

ps.com...

Greetings,
I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?
Thank you for your time,
William
PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William


The additional rules are that the receptacle outlet and the equipment
served should be labeled as having more than one source of supply.

The cord may be of any length you find convenient but cords longer then
six feet are generally frowned on for permanent use.

If you do what I suggested in my other reply you will simply throw the
switch to the non alternate power position and walk away.
--
Tom Horne

On Oct 8, 9:24 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 8, 9:07 pm, " wrote:



On Oct 8, 7:27 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give
you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire
size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight
blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use,
you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to
your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular
receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's
special.

Thank you very much David, John, and RMB for attempting to help me
create a NEC complaint installation. I am going to proceed with
project "central UPS" as one poster put it. I am going to use a red
plate and a label from a labeling machine which states the receptacle
is connected to the basement UPS. I will use twist lock flanged
connectors (in the basement) and 12 AWG wire throughout.

One line explanations for hecklers:
=====================================
Anti-rackmount coalition: I have clients because I give them what they
want.
People who don't believe in discount rates: The miracle of compound
interest is real and I don't actually mind your disbelief because
someone has to pay all that interest.
UPS TCO math: I elaborated in my Pete C. reply post.
Derby Dad: I'll be sure and eat the high-fiber box to after consuming
the cereal contained therein.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't recall saying anything about your fiber intake. I did,
however, ask a question about the code compliancy of your beautifully
finished attic.

Fair enough.

To the best of my knowledge it is electrical code complaint so long as
it is not considered a bedroom (it doesn't have arc-fault
protection.) There may also be more than 5% voltage drop if you fully
loaded the existing circuit (but that is a FPN).

On Oct 9, 12:35 am, Tom Horne wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 8, 1:59 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Assuming you only want the UPS to attach to one dedicated outlet on the
third floor. You could install a junction box on the existing conduit with
a three wire cord set to plug into the UPS, then attach those wires to three
conductors going through the existing conduit to the third floor, then from
another junction box up there, run those conductors to the PC outlet using
whatever wiring method is acceptable in your jurisdiction. This is all
contingent on having spare room in the conduit

" wrote in message

oups.com...

Greetings,
I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?
Thank you for your time,
William
PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Greetings,

Thank you but there are other issues?:
When someone turns off the main breaker there will still be a live
outlet in the attic. Aren't there additional rules about such things?

Does the three wire cord set have to have special properties?
a) Wire must be no more than X feet long?
b) Wire must be of special type?

When I am done using the setup (years from now) can I simply plug the
cord set into a basement receptacle?

Thanks again,
William

The additional rules are that the receptacle outlet and the equipment
served should be labeled as having more than one source of supply.

The cord may be of any length you find convenient but cords longer then
six feet are generally frowned on for permanent use.

If you do what I suggested in my other reply you will simply throw the
switch to the non alternate power position and walk away.
--
Tom Horne

This is a great way to "clean up" after the project concludes. I will
reply in your other post.

On Oct 9, 12:29 am, Tom Horne wrote:
wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

The use of flexible cord as part of the permanent wiring system of a
building is tightly constrained by the US NEC. Connecting alternative
power sources to circuits is not a use the code writers permitted and in
the absence of a specific permitted use it may not be used as permanent
wiring. Here is how you do what you want to do and still be code
compliant. This is the same connection scheme that will pass inspection
for supplying hard wired appliances such as heating equipment from a
portable generator.

You install a box that is equipped with a double pole double throw
(DPDT) switch that has a center off position. The switch should be
rated for the ampacity of the circuit. The two center terminals on each
side of the switch are the commons of each pole. Those common terminals
will supply the circuit to the third floor which will terminate in an
appropriate receptacle outlet. The two terminals that are connected to
the common when the switch is in it's up position will be connected to
the circuits normal source of supply. The other two terminals will be
connected to a flanged inlet which is a recessed male plug that you will
install beside the DPDT switch either in the same J-box or one
immediately adjacent to it. A regular cord of the same configuration as
the UPS receptacle outlet will connect between the receptacle on the UPS
and the flanged inlet on the junction box. In that way the flexible
cord is not part of the permanent wiring and you can transfer the
circuit to it's regular supply when the UPS needs servicing.

It will be argued that the flanged inlet and the use of the double pole
switch is overkill and that the same function can be accomplished by
just terminating the flexible cord into the j-box and using a common
three way switch. That is not true however because the three way switch
will bypass the TVSS protection that is built into the UPS because the
circuits neutral will not pass through the UPS under UPS operation.

A common three way switch will also allow the transfer of the load from
regular power to UPS too quickly. If it is a continuous duty UPS it may
have an output waveform that is out of phase with the utility power.
Being only an electrician myself I can only tell you that we were taught
during apprenticeship training that could be harmful to some loads.
That information may not be up to date because modern computers may be
more tolerant of such power fluctuations then the ones in service when I
was in training low these many years ago.
--
Tom Horne

Greetings Mr Horne:

a) I will try to limit the flexible cord length to 6 ft and run more
conduit if necessary.
b) I like the DPDT idea very much!

Thanks again Tom!
--William

PS: At first glance this is an expensive switch: http://tinyurl.com/3altke
.... but I am sure I can find a cheaper version. The appliance control
DPDT switches are very reasonable.

My assumption is that one uses a UPS to avoid power interruptions, giving
you a short time to safely save data and shut down. How is a system that you
have to manually throw a switch, assuming you are even there at the time,
going to help?



" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 9, 12:29 am, Tom Horne wrote:
wrote:
Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

The use of flexible cord as part of the permanent wiring system of a
building is tightly constrained by the US NEC. Connecting alternative
power sources to circuits is not a use the code writers permitted and in
the absence of a specific permitted use it may not be used as permanent
wiring. Here is how you do what you want to do and still be code
compliant. This is the same connection scheme that will pass inspection
for supplying hard wired appliances such as heating equipment from a
portable generator.

You install a box that is equipped with a double pole double throw
(DPDT) switch that has a center off position. The switch should be
rated for the ampacity of the circuit. The two center terminals on each
side of the switch are the commons of each pole. Those common terminals
will supply the circuit to the third floor which will terminate in an
appropriate receptacle outlet. The two terminals that are connected to
the common when the switch is in it's up position will be connected to
the circuits normal source of supply. The other two terminals will be
connected to a flanged inlet which is a recessed male plug that you will
install beside the DPDT switch either in the same J-box or one
immediately adjacent to it. A regular cord of the same configuration as
the UPS receptacle outlet will connect between the receptacle on the UPS
and the flanged inlet on the junction box. In that way the flexible
cord is not part of the permanent wiring and you can transfer the
circuit to it's regular supply when the UPS needs servicing.

It will be argued that the flanged inlet and the use of the double pole
switch is overkill and that the same function can be accomplished by
just terminating the flexible cord into the j-box and using a common
three way switch. That is not true however because the three way switch
will bypass the TVSS protection that is built into the UPS because the
circuits neutral will not pass through the UPS under UPS operation.

A common three way switch will also allow the transfer of the load from
regular power to UPS too quickly. If it is a continuous duty UPS it may
have an output waveform that is out of phase with the utility power.
Being only an electrician myself I can only tell you that we were taught
during apprenticeship training that could be harmful to some loads.
That information may not be up to date because modern computers may be
more tolerant of such power fluctuations then the ones in service when I
was in training low these many years ago.
--
Tom Horne

Greetings Mr Horne:

a) I will try to limit the flexible cord length to 6 ft and run more
conduit if necessary.
b) I like the DPDT idea very much!

Thanks again Tom!
--William

PS: At first glance this is an expensive switch:
http://tinyurl.com/3altke
... but I am sure I can find a cheaper version. The appliance control
DPDT switches are very reasonable.

On 9 Oct, 02:13, " wrote:
On Oct 8, 9:24 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Oct 8, 9:07 pm, " wrote:

On Oct 8, 7:27 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

" wrote in message

ups.com...

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

Perhaps the installation of a flanged inlet at the UPS location would give
you the ability to use permanent wiring in the wall. I'm not sure what wire
size you need, but they come in 15 and 20 amp and perhaps 30 amp straight
blade and twistlock.. Depending on the inlet configuration that you use,
you might need to make your own cord set-up to connect the flanged inlet to
your UPS. At the third floor location you could just have a regular
receptacle or something different like a twistlock to indicate that it's
special.

Thank you very much David, John, and RMB for attempting to help me
create a NEC complaint installation. I am going to proceed with
project "central UPS" as one poster put it. I am going to use a red
plate and a label from a labeling machine which states the receptacle
is connected to the basement UPS. I will use twist lock flanged
connectors (in the basement) and 12 AWG wire throughout.

One line explanations for hecklers:
=====================================
Anti-rackmount coalition: I have clients because I give them what they
want.
People who don't believe in discount rates: The miracle of compound
interest is real and I don't actually mind your disbelief because
someone has to pay all that interest.
UPS TCO math: I elaborated in my Pete C. reply post.
Derby Dad: I'll be sure and eat the high-fiber box to after consuming
the cereal contained therein.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't recall saying anything about your fiber intake. I did,
however, ask a question about the code compliancy of your beautifully
finished attic.

Fair enough.

To the best of my knowledge it is electrical code complaint so long as
it is not considered a bedroom (it doesn't have arc-fault
protection.) There may also be more than 5% voltage drop if you fully
loaded the existing circuit (but that is a FPN).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Once again, I am feeling misunderstood.

My original question was not limited to NEC compliancy. I also asked
about egress and any other codes that might be applicable to the
intended use of the space: height of sloped walls, joist sizing for
live loads plus furniture, ventilation, etc.

I don't really care if it's code compliant in all areas - that's your
choice - and as I've said before, making it NEC compliant is
commendable, especially from a safety perspective. I'm just curious as
to whether or not you've put as much effort into all the other codes
that might apply as you seem to be to putting into the UPS
connections.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

Maybe, but you won'thave two ups's using electricity all the time.
OTOH, I turn off my UPS when I'm not at the computer. If I don't the
thing gets pretty hot, all wasted energy.

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:04:25 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
HeyBub wrote:

wrote:
Greetings,
I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?
Thank you for your time,
William
PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.
It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.
I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.


A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400, consume additional
electricity, and take up space. Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one. The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime. If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100. The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

Just how much UPS capacity do you need up in the attic? If it is just
one or two PCs to control the server farm you seem to be keeping in the
basement, one of the $200 baby UPS units will be fine.

I'm no UPS expert, but IIRC, there is a limit to how far the load can be
from the electronics, and still be considered protected.\\

I don't know. I"ve heard that electricity travels at the speed of
light.

Of course that would be the speed of light in copper. I held a lamp
up to; one side of a copper sheet, and it hasn't gotten through to the
other side yet. Should I wait another hour?

aem sends...

On Mon, 08 Oct 2007 22:14:14 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.

Then why is my one-computer UPS so hot if I leave it on while not
using the computer. Not just in one spot, but over the entire top
surface and some of the sides.

On Oct 8, 10:10 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
" wrote:

On Oct 8, 6:44 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

" wrote:

On Oct 8, 4:11 pm, "Pete C." wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

wrote:

Greetings,

I have two computers, one in the basement and one on the third floor,
which I would like to run off the same plug-in UPS (expensive, so I
don't want to purchase another one). There is already conduit going
up to the third floor. What do I need to properly (to-code) install a
UPS protected outlet on the third floor which shares the plug-in UPS
in the basement? Is there a code-compliant solution? Are you allowed
to plug a cord into a UPS which goes into a junction box, is spliced
to THHN, and then into the house wiring?

Thank you for your time,
William

PS: I am not asking for instructions on how to install an outlet. The
outlet that the UPS plugs into in the basement is already GFI
protected. There are enough spare cubic inches in the box to support
an additional device and wiring.

It will cost more to run another wire from the basement to the stars than
the $75 for a UPS.

I'm pretty sure copper prices aren't that high yet, but yes, while a
central UPS is nice, with today's UPS prices distributed UPSes are more
practical.

A new UPS for the third floor would cost $300-400,

Exactly what UPS are you looking at? You certainly don't need a UPS
anywhere near that cost to run a single computer, particularly these
days with LCD monitors. You're not trying to UPS a laser printer are
you???

consume additional
electricity,

Unless it's a hybrid UPS with ferroresonant line conditioner, it's
standby / float charging power consumption is pretty negligible.

and take up space.

The UPS to handle one computer will be about the size of a shoe box, and
shouldn't be any issue to position along with the computer itself.

Then I would have to replace the
batteries in both of them every few years at an increased cost instead
of just the one.

Not likely. My big UPS with my server rack in my garage is now about 10
years old, on it's original set of batteries and is showing no sign of
any problems. The server rack loads it to about 15% capacity and just a
couple weeks ago there was a power failure where it ran some 60 minutes
on battery until I switched to generator power when the UPS reported 20
minutes of battery remaining.

The upstairs UPS, replacement batteries, and power
consumption (including cooling power) would probably come to $750 or
more over its lifetime.

Wildly exaggerated estimate, unless you're counting it's lifetime as 30
years and even then it's probably a high estimate.

If a 42U rack costs $1000 delivered then just
the space in the rack the new UPS would take up could be considered to
cost $100.

What planet are you on buying new racks delivered? Racks are a dime a
dozen used, often free and there is no reason to buy new unless you are
building a showcase data center at which point you still need redundant
UPSes, redundant generators, redundant air conditioning, access floors,
etc.

The dual-UPS solution is NOT the most economical solution.

It is by far, once you open your eyes to the real world and not some
fantasy idea of a shiny enterprise data center.

Spend the $100 of a decent UPS at Fry's, Costco, etc., plug it in
upstairs and get on with your life.

(The data centers I deal with have UPSes and generators rated in MW
total capacity, and $250K/month electric bills)
Hi,
Let me guess, OP'er came here to argue because he does not have real
something to do himself. If he has a wish list, dive in and do it
instead of wasting time arguing with everyone. Military installations
I used to work on went out some times with all that high tech redundancy.
As far as I remember no system has 100% up time. Maybe 99.9999%

The "five 9s" i.e. 99.999% is the gold standard used most places.
Perhaps the military adds an extra decimal place. But that 0.001% is why
you also mirror / RAID all disks, do daily backups and send them off
site, have redundant power supplies on all your CPUs and storage,
redundant network links, etc. Perhaps the OP is planning on hosting a
pay net porn site that will loose money if it's down, in which case it
should be hosted at a real data center anyway.

"What planet do I come from?" Let's try a planet where people use
numbers instead of emotions to make decisions.

I use numbers as well, not emotions.



A search for "rack mount ups" at froogle.com sorted by relevance
prices the five most relevant at:
$825, $440, $490, $504 and $650

Rack mount UPS = same guts as non rack mount UPS in a rack mount case
for 2X the price. Try a non rack mount UPS on a $20 rack shelf, that's
what I've used for years and it performs perfectly.



I clicked on the first one and it has a "670W Nominal Output Power",
and provides about 20 minutes of standby time at half load (325W)
which hardly seems excessive. My "kill-a-watt" meter puts my power
usage at just under 400W so I would get a little less than 20 minutes
with new batteries in the unit and less once the batteries age.

If you take the cheapest unit at $440 and pretend the wiring cost was
$140 you come to a $300 initial savings. If your discount rate is 8%
and the project life span is 10 years $300*1.08^10=$647.58.

$647.58 saved based on initial cost alone

Again, you are not making rational choices for the UPS, you're going on
cosmetics. You can get a perfectly acceptable Trip-Lite brand 1KVA UPS
at Costco for $100 add a rack shelf from another source for $20 and
you're done.



Then take a look at batteries:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...ggested&Descri...

First off, *never* buy replacement UPS batteries from the UPS
manufacturer, they are severely overpriced. Get replacement UPS
batteries from a local wholesale battery distributor, where they are
much cheaper for the same battery. I've used Mid State Battery in the
past and a set for a UPS rarely exceeded $40 with tax. The UPS is out of
warranty at that point so it's not like you have to use the "branded"
batteries to maintain warranty.

Notice the manufacturer states that they are good from 3-5 years.
This makes since because it matches the life expectancy of lead-acid
car batteries and also matches my personal experience.

Car batteries operate under very different conditions from UPS
batteries. Car batteries cycle from freezing temperatures to 150 degree
temperatures and back in the winter. Car batteries don't sit on a float
charger most of their life. Car batteries are called upon to produce
several hundred amps for 30 seconds and then recharge. There is pretty
much no valid comparison between UPS battery life and car battery life.



If the cost of the batteries+shipping for the unit is $50+ (and it is
more) two replacements over a 10 year life expectancy will add another
$100 or so to the total cost.

Again the life expectancy you are going by is not correct. It may be a
good number for a large corporation to use when replacing batteries in
hundreds of UPSes, but it's silly for a home user where you have a
couple UPSes and can easily load / runtime test them annually. As I
noted, the batteries in my big (1.42KVA) UPS are a decade old and still
performing perfectly under load.



We are up to $747.58. If the additional UPS uses only 20W and 10W for
cooling 30W at $0.10 per kWh over 10 years comes to $263 which brings
us to about $1010 difference. If the space is free and somehow I have
overestimated by $260 we are still talking about a $750 difference.

The standby consumption is the only place you're even close to reality,
and the $2.19/mo is pretty insignificant.



If my math is wrong, please show me. Otherwise please help with my
ORIGINAL question. ... and NO ... I am not switching from rack mount
equipment to non-rack mount for a whole variety of reasons that are
even more off the topic of home repair than I have been drawn to by
the erroneous responses about UPS system TCO. Please answer the
original electrical question!

If you want to waste money for some sort of ego / cosmetic reasons, by
all means feel free to do so, certainly people waste money of far more
silly things. Don't try to "cook the books" to try to justify the extra
cost for cosmetics as some sort of savings though.

My central server, network gear and a few other extraneous items along
with the big UPS are in a standard equipment rack in my garage. The rack
is used and was free, most of the equipment in it is not rack mount and
is on rack mount shelves, though the main ethernet switch is rack mount.

As for the original question:

NEC Article 645.10 "Disconnecting means" indicates that a means of
disconnecting power to all electronic equipment in the information
technology room must be provided as well as similar disconnecting means
for HVAC and closing smoke / fire dampers, and the controls must be
grouped and located at the principle exit doors.

NEC Article 645.11 indicates that a UPS of 750VA or lower capacity
installed within the information technology room is exempt from article
645.10 disconnecting means requirements.

These are the sections of the NEC that reference UPS systems, and
clearly aren't intended to be applied to a residential environment.
There are other articles for separately derived systems and multiple
power sources, none of which are directly applicable.

Ultimately it comes down to the discretion of your local building
official (AHJ) to interpret and apply the code and their own expertise
to determine what they will require / accept. Since there is no directly
applicable NEC code you are entirely at their mercy as to what they'll
let you do.

The AHJ may simply insist you use a separate UPS so that the
disconnecting means are clearly recognizable to the local fire
department responding to your server fire. They may accept the remote
outlets if the connections are entirely isolated in separate conduit
from the regular household circuits. It's entirely up to the AHJ and
nobody on the 'net can give you the precise answer.

The NEC is available online for your review, someone posted the link
here recently I believe.



PS: I do have systems at a hosting facility. These systems do not
need to be at a colocation facility or they would be. JEEESH!!!!

That's nice. Do you have a backup generator to keep things online for
more than the ~20 minutes of the UPS(es)? If not, that's a better place
to spend money than purty racks.

Greetings Pete,

Your math is wrong. It uses prices for non-rackmount equipment and
generics. This is not the class of equipment which I am using for
this installation. I know you have strong pro-generic anti-rackmount
feelings but please try to put them aside. This is not what all my
clients like to see me use even in the dev environment and they are
right by definition.

Insisting on rack mount / name brand equipment does not equate to
cooking the books. Period. Your entire argument stems from the fact
that I could do it cheaper if I used non-rack mount generics. You
have not pointed out a math error! Lawyers could probably drastically
reduce their clothing / dry cleaning costs if they wore jeans and a
white t-shirt but clients wouldn't like it. When client perception is
taken into account it is cheaper to pay for the suits.

Yes. I have a backup generator and speaking of backup generators with
"central UPS" I can simply plug this generator into the power inlet in
the basement through the basement window (indirectly by plugging the
central UPS into the generator). Without "central UPS" I have to run
the generator cord in through the basement window and then snake it up
three flights of stairs with extension cords!

That said, thank you for your NEC notes.

--William

On Oct 8, 9:25 pm, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:
Simpler than any of the above:

buy another damn $39 ups. jeeeeeeze...

steve



Greetings Steve --- I believe my reply to Pete also addresses your
post:

"
Greetings Pete,

Your math is wrong. It uses prices for non-rackmount equipment and
generics. This is not the class of equipment which I am using for
this installation. I know you have strong pro-generic anti-rackmount
feelings but please try to put them aside. This is not what all my
clients like to see me use even in the dev environment and they are
right by definition.

Insisting on rack mount / name brand equipment does not equate to
cooking the books. Period. Your entire argument stems from the fact
that I could do it cheaper if I used non-rack mount generics. You
have not pointed out a math error! Lawyers could probably drastically
reduce their clothing / dry cleaning costs if they wore jeans and a
white t-shirt but clients wouldn't like it. When client perception is
taken into account it is cheaper to pay for the suits.

Yes. I have a backup generator and speaking of backup generators with
"central UPS" I can simply plug this generator into the power inlet in
the basement through the basement window (indirectly by plugging the
central UPS into the generator). Without "central UPS" I have to run
the generator cord in through the basement window and then snake it up
three flights of stairs with extension cords!

That said, thank you for your NEC notes.

--William
"