I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?


If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The film image is a mirror image of
the actual event.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit www.househomerepair.com

DerbyDad03 wrote:

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

Yep- On "Wagon Train" in the 50's. Might be why they call it the
'Wagon wheel' effect.

In a nutshell it has to do with permanence of vision, frames of film,
and optical tricks our mind plays on us.

A more lengthy explanation is here;
http://www.crystalinks.com/wagonwheeleffect.html

Jim

DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

Did you consider the fact that the guy is an actor.
The drill may actually be turning backwards because
the actors and directors don't have a clue. I know,
I'm being fecesious (sic).

TDD

On Jul 13, 10:49*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

Did you consider the fact that the guy is an actor.
The drill may actually be turning backwards because
the actors and directors don't have a clue. I know,
I'm being fecesious (sic).

TDD

Yup facetious. Happens often with films and TV because the picture we
see is actually some 25 to 30 snapshots (or frames) per second.
For example, with TV, older TV anyway not necessarily digital and HD,
it it is presented to us so that alternate lines are scanned and
viewed first each frame and then during the same frame it goes back
and does the intervening lines.
In fact any thing rotating may appear to be either going forwards or
backwards. Doesn't mean a thing.
But maybe the hole had been drilled by the fifth take and they are now
on their 15th and the actor is basically instructed to "Here; hold
this and pretend you are drilling. And oh, by the way look happy about
it ......"! :-)

Ah, the strobe light "stroboscopic" thing. When the
frequency of the camera shutter is a little different than
the frequency of the drill (in RPM) the drill can appear to
be going slowly forward.... or slowly backward.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Colbyt" wrote in message
...

If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing
with cars wheels in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with
the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The film image is a
mirror image of
the actual event.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit www.househomerepair.com

stan wrote:
On Jul 13, 10:49 am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.
They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.
Has anybody else seen this?
Did you consider the fact that the guy is an actor.
The drill may actually be turning backwards because
the actors and directors don't have a clue. I know,
I'm being fecesious (sic).

TDD

Yup facetious. Happens often with films and TV because the picture we
see is actually some 25 to 30 snapshots (or frames) per second.
For example, with TV, older TV anyway not necessarily digital and HD,
it it is presented to us so that alternate lines are scanned and
viewed first each frame and then during the same frame it goes back
and does the intervening lines.
In fact any thing rotating may appear to be either going forwards or
backwards. Doesn't mean a thing.
But maybe the hole had been drilled by the fifth take and they are now
on their 15th and the actor is basically instructed to "Here; hold
this and pretend you are drilling. And oh, by the way look happy about
it ......"! :-)

I love the old Ridgid Tool calendars that are no
longer politically correct. What's that gal in
the hot pants doing with that pipe wrench? That's
not the way you hold it! *snicker*

TDD

On Jul 13, 8:03*am, Hipupchuck wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

You eventually have to come out of the hole.

If you follow the sequence of the clip, he inserts the battery and
then begins to drill into the wood.

On Jul 13, 8:23*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

Yep- On "Wagon Train" in the 50's. * Might be why they call it the
'Wagon wheel' effect.

In a nutshell it has to do with permanence of vision, frames of film,
and optical tricks our mind plays on us.

A more lengthy explanation is here;http://www.crystalinks.com/wagonwheeleffect.html

Jim

I'd agree except for one issue. When I run the commercial in slow
motion, it appears that the 3/8" marking on the bit is rotating away
from the viewer. Would the wagon wheel effect still be present in a
slow motion viewing of the object?

On Jul 13, 8:16*am, "Colbyt" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The *film image is a mirror image of
the actual event.

--
Colbyt
Please come visit *www.househomerepair.com

The film image is a mirror image of the actual event.

Then why isn't *everything*, including any text, backwards?

On Jul 13, 11:22*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 13, 8:16*am, "Colbyt" wrote:





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

....

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The *film image is a mirror image of
the actual event.

--
Colbyt
Please come visit *www.househomerepair.com

The *film image is a mirror image of the actual event.

Then why isn't *everything*, including any text, backwards?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's a digression.
..
What we have been discussing is 'timing'; as each part of something
rotating (in the case of wheels it could be identical-looking spokes
for example) comes into each frame of a film or TV picture. It may
then appear to be ahead of or behind the one seen in the preceding
frame. So the item my 'appear' to rotate either forwards or backwards.

Mirror or not; viewing film is a matter of the optics used and how the
film is then projected onto either a screen or into a TV transmitter.

It was possible in some film installations, for example, to adjust the
focal length etc. of the projector so that the picture could be seen
reversed and/or perhaps upside down!

On Jul 13, 5:16*am, "Colbyt" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The *film image is a mirror image of
the actual event.

--
Colbyt
Please come visit *www.househomerepair.com

Almost right. It is _not_ a mirror image, it is a simple strobe
effect. Were it a "mirror image" every rotating object would appear
to run backward as would everyting in the movie.

Harry K

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

I haven't seen that one here, but I have seen, several times, the one
where they're driving a screw into a piece of wood. It also appears to
be rotating CCW.

I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.

I think someone in the editing room flipped the thing intentionally, for
aesthetic reasons, without realizing that the drill would appear to be
in reverse.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Jul 13, 8:16 am, "Colbyt" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels
in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The film image is a mirror image
of
the actual event.

--
Colbyt
Please come visit www.househomerepair.com

The film image is a mirror image of the actual event.

Then why isn't *everything*, including any text, backwards?

I was wrong about the cause but the effect is real. I never bothered to
look up the correct answer before.

On Jul 13, 8:09*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
stan wrote:
On Jul 13, 10:49 am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.
They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.
Has anybody else seen this?
Did you consider the fact that the guy is an actor.
The drill may actually be turning backwards because
the actors and directors don't have a clue. I know,
I'm being fecesious (sic).

TDD

Yup facetious. Happens often with films and TV because the picture we
see is actually some 25 to 30 snapshots (or frames) per second.
For example, with TV, older TV anyway not necessarily digital and HD,
it it is presented to us so that alternate lines are scanned and
viewed first each frame and then during the same frame it goes back
and does the intervening lines.
In fact any thing rotating may appear to be either going forwards or
backwards. Doesn't mean a thing.
But maybe the hole had been drilled by the fifth take and they are now
on their 15th and the actor is basically instructed to "Here; hold
this and pretend you are drilling. And oh, by the way look happy about
it ......"! :-)

I love the old Ridgid Tool calendars that are no
longer politically correct. What's that gal in
the hot pants doing with that pipe wrench? That's
not the way you hold it! *snicker*

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Makita had good pin ups too. Some are still available.

On Jul 13, 11:35*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.

Have you seen it outside, in sunlight? It happens indoors and at night
under street lights becuase many artificial lights strobe at 60Hz (in
the US).

Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

I haven't seen that one here, but I have seen, several times, the one
where they're driving a screw into a piece of wood. It also appears to
be rotating CCW.

I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.

I think someone in the editing room flipped the thing intentionally, for
aesthetic reasons, without realizing that the drill would appear to be
in reverse.

A lot of what you're referring to happens quite often
in print advertising. The editor or layout person will
flip things around to make it fit the ad space or the
packaging. Something in the back of your mind screams,
WRONG! Until you finally figure it out.

TDD

On Jul 13, 11:54*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*DerbyDad03 wrote:

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

I haven't seen that one here, but I have seen, several times, the one
where they're driving a screw into a piece of wood. It also appears to
be rotating CCW.

I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.

I think someone in the editing room flipped the thing intentionally, for
aesthetic reasons, without realizing that the drill would appear to be
in reverse.

A lot of what you're referring to happens quite often
in print advertising. The editor or layout person will
flip things around to make it fit the ad space or the
packaging. Something in the back of your mind screams,
WRONG! Until you finally figure it out.

TDD

The editor or layout person will flip things around to make it fit
the ad space or the packaging.

What possible advantage would it be for the editor or layout person to
"flip" the drill direction around?

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 13, 11:54 pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.
They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.
Has anybody else seen this?
I haven't seen that one here, but I have seen, several times, the one
where they're driving a screw into a piece of wood. It also appears to
be rotating CCW.
I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.
I think someone in the editing room flipped the thing intentionally, for
aesthetic reasons, without realizing that the drill would appear to be
in reverse.
A lot of what you're referring to happens quite often
in print advertising. The editor or layout person will
flip things around to make it fit the ad space or the
packaging. Something in the back of your mind screams,
WRONG! Until you finally figure it out.

TDD

The editor or layout person will flip things around to make it fit
the ad space or the packaging.

What possible advantage would it be for the editor or layout person to
"flip" the drill direction around?

I'm sorry, I was musing about print ads in general, not
video.

TDD

On Jul 13, 2:34*pm, Larry The Snake Guy wrote:
On Jul 13, 11:35*am, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.

Have you seen it outside, in sunlight? It happens indoors and at night
under street lights becuase many artificial lights strobe at 60Hz (in
the US).

I haven't seen it but heard that it will do the same in flourescent
lights.

Harry K

On Jul 13, 8:35*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*DerbyDad03 wrote:
I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

I haven't seen that one here, but I have seen, several times, the one
where they're driving a screw into a piece of wood. It also appears to
be rotating CCW.

I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel
effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel
effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per
second" issue.

I think someone in the editing room flipped the thing intentionally, for
aesthetic reasons, without realizing that the drill would appear to be
in reverse.

Nope. It is strobing. In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

In article
,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

What possible advantage would it be for the editor or layout person to
"flip" the drill direction around?

The reversal of the drill direction would be an *unintended* consequence
of reversing the picture so that, for example, the person is on the left
and the drill is on the right.

In article
,
harry k wrote:

Nope. It is strobing. In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

On Jul 14, 12:22*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Between camera scan rate, 60 Hz strobing (they use lights outside in
bright sunlight)...as you go through a speed range...the rotating
object may "appear" to go forward and then backwards (even frame by
frame).
bob_v

DerbyDad03 wrote:

-snip-
I'd agree except for one issue. When I run the commercial in slow
motion, it appears that the 3/8" marking on the bit is rotating away
from the viewer. Would the wagon wheel effect still be present in a
slow motion viewing of the object?

I don't know-- but I was playing with my new toy [Bosch impact driver
as recommended by John in another thread] today and in full sun, at
just the right speed, if you stare at the bit it looks like it
reverses direction. I know it didn't because the screw kept going
in.

Jim

On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and
therefore rotate together. Vary the speed of the drill and you would
see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction.

You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course.

Harry K

On Jul 13, 8:15*am, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:12:10 -0700 (PDT), harry k





wrote:
On Jul 13, 5:16*am, "Colbyt" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

....

I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by
Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their
cordless tool lines.

They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood
attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring
bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is
running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of
times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom
of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not
coming towards the viewer.

Has anybody else seen this?

If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels in
close-ups.
I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon
wheels.

It is a function of the filming process.The *film image is a mirror image of
the actual event.

--
Colbyt
Please come visit *www.househomerepair.com

Almost right. *It is _not_ a mirror image, it is a simple strobe
effect. *Were it a "mirror image" every rotating object would appear
to run backward as would everyting in the movie.

Harry K

The stroboscopic wagon wheel effect of old TV shows was the result of
the frame rate of the film being different than the 60hz standard of
television timing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Okay, so what does the 60hz timeing of TV have to do with the strobing
in the movie theaters? Answer: Nothing. In the theater is it due to
the frame rate of the projector and/or the camera that did the
filming.

The strobe effect is well known and is (or used to be) a standard
demonstration in HS physics.

Harry K

In article
,
harry k wrote:

On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and
therefore rotate together. Vary the speed of the drill and you would
see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction.

You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course.

Harry K

No, I didn't miss it. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMERCIAL? IF SO, do you STILL
think it is the wagon wheel effect ???????

On Jul 14, 3:41*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:





On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and
therefore rotate together. *Vary the speed of the drill and you would
see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction.

You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course.

Harry K

No, I didn't miss it. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMERCIAL? IF SO, do you STILL
think it is the wagon wheel effect ???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One more time and I am done. I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.
You have described an everyday, common effect of strobing. I don't
need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened when some
kook tries to explain daylight by some other method.

Try doing a google on 'stroboscopic effect' - I would be surprised if
you don't find a lot of sources explaining it and even some clips
showing it.

You have been told by several people what it is, that you don't want
to accept it...

Harry K

In article
,
harry k wrote:


One more time and I am done. I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.

OK, and this will be me being done: BULL****. I know what the wagon
wheel effect is, and this is NOT it. And you know what? IF YOU DO SEE
THE COMMERCIAL, YOU WILL AGREE.

On Jul 14, 9:17*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:



One more time and I am done. *I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.

OK, and this will be me being done: BULL****. I know what the wagon
wheel effect is, and this is NOT it. And you know what? IF YOU DO SEE
THE COMMERCIAL, YOU WILL AGREE.

Getting a bit tired of shouting are you? You obviously do _not_ know
what strobing is or you wouldn't be going on this way.

I notice you make no reference to do any google on it. I did and
found pages of it including clips. True most of the clips do involve
wheels. Your example of the screw, the chuck etc. all have 'wheel
spoke' like things, the screw, the chuck key fingers (if it has them),
any knicks, burrs, chips, etc on the bit.

Harry K

In article
,
harry k wrote:


You obviously do not know
what strobing is or you wouldn't be going on this way.



Oh, I thought you were done telling us that you KNOW the explanation for
something that you admit to NOT HAVING SEEN.

Yes, the various parts of the drill mechanism have regular features that
could be analogous to the spokes of a wheel. But to suggest they could
all exhibit the "strobing" at the *same RPM* is nothing short of
preposterous.

There is absolutely nothing blurry about the commercial. The drill is
operating at a very low RPM and the moving parts are in crisp focus the
whole time.

The video is shown in mirror image, and that's all there is to it.
*Anyone* who has ACTUALLY SEEN the commercial would agree.

On Jul 14, 11:20*pm, harry k wrote:
On Jul 14, 3:41*pm, Smitty Two wrote:





In article
,
*harry k wrote:

On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and
therefore rotate together. *Vary the speed of the drill and you would
see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction.

You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course.

Harry K

No, I didn't miss it. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMERCIAL? IF SO, do you STILL
think it is the wagon wheel effect ???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One more time and I am done. *I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.
You have described an everyday, common effect of strobing. *I don't
need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened when some
kook tries to explain daylight by some other method.

Try doing a google on 'stroboscopic effect' - I would be surprised if
you don't find a lot of sources explaining it and even some clips
showing it.

You have been told by several people what it is, that you don't want
to accept it...

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"I don't need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened
when some kook tries to explain daylight by some other method."

That's because there is no other explanation for daylight.

However, regardless of the existance of the "common effect of
strobing" there also exists a number of other reasons for the bit to
appear to be rotating backwards, the obvious one being that it
actually is rotating backwards.

There's also the possibility of the film being a "mirror image" of the
actual event.

I'm not claiming that the cause *isn't* the "common effect of
strobing" - although I seriously doubt that in this case it is - I'm
simply pointing out that your argument for not needing to see the
commercial based on the fact that the sun causes daylight is flawed.

On Jul 15, 10:08*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

You obviously do *not *know
what strobing is or you wouldn't be going on this way.

Oh, I thought you were done telling us that you KNOW the explanation for
something that you admit to NOT HAVING SEEN.

Yes, the various parts of the drill mechanism have regular features that
could be analogous to the spokes of a wheel. But to suggest they could
all exhibit the "strobing" at the *same RPM* is nothing short of
preposterous.

There is absolutely nothing blurry about the commercial. The drill is
operating at a very low RPM and the moving parts are in crisp focus the
whole time.

The video is shown in mirror image, and that's all there is to it.
*Anyone* who has ACTUALLY SEEN the commercial would agree.

Think about it for a minute: All the parts are rotating together.
Right?
All the parts of a wheel rotate together. Right? So just what is
prepsterous about it?

Harry K

On Jul 15, 11:05*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 14, 11:20*pm, harry k wrote:





On Jul 14, 3:41*pm, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
*harry k wrote:

On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and
therefore rotate together. *Vary the speed of the drill and you would
see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction.

You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course.

Harry K

No, I didn't miss it. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMERCIAL? IF SO, do you STILL
think it is the wagon wheel effect ???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One more time and I am done. *I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.
You have described an everyday, common effect of strobing. *I don't
need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened when some
kook tries to explain daylight by some other method.

Try doing a google on 'stroboscopic effect' - I would be surprised if
you don't find a lot of sources explaining it and even some clips
showing it.

You have been told by several people what it is, that you don't want
to accept it...

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"I don't need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened
when some kook tries to explain daylight by some other method."

That's because there is no other explanation for daylight.

However, regardless of the existance of the "common effect of
strobing" there also exists a number of other reasons for the bit to
appear to be rotating backwards, the obvious one being that it
actually is rotating backwards.

There's also the possibility of the film being a "mirror image" of the
actual event.

I'm not claiming that the cause *isn't* the "common effect of
strobing" - although I seriously doubt that in this case it is - I'm
simply pointing out that your argument for not needing to see the
commercial based on the fact that the sun causes daylight is flawed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True it is "possible" but Occam's razor comes into effect. So fare
Smitty hasn't produced anything that would obviate the simple
solution.

Harry K

In article
,
harry k wrote:



Think about it for a minute: All the parts are rotating together.
Right?
All the parts of a wheel rotate together. Right? So just what is
prepsterous about it?



Let's say there's 4 repeating features on the screwdriver bit (the
square sides), 3 chuck fingers, and 10 grooves around the outer diameter
of the chuck. The strobe couldn't make them all appear to turn backwards
at the same RPM. Oh, yeah, there's also the threads on the drywall type
screw that are turning backwards.

On Jul 15, 9:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:



Think about it for a minute: *All the parts are rotating together.
Right?
All the parts of a wheel rotate together. *Right? *So just what is
prepsterous about it?

Let's say there's 4 repeating features on the screwdriver bit (the
square sides), 3 chuck fingers, and 10 grooves around the outer diameter
of the chuck. The strobe couldn't make them all appear to turn backwards
at the same RPM. Oh, yeah, there's also the threads on the drywall type
screw that are turning backwards.

Well of course they all rotate at the same speed, they are fixed to
one another. In real life they are also rotating at the same speed so
why wouldn't they in strobe effect? The fact that some of them are
farther out from the axis does not effect their position when the
strobe hits. Somehow you seem to think that everything is rotating at
different rates

You could build a wheel 6' in diameter and tie rags aroudn the spokes
at diffent distances from the axle and they would all show the same
effect.
..
Harry K

On Jul 15, 9:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:



Think about it for a minute: *All the parts are rotating together.
Right?
All the parts of a wheel rotate together. *Right? *So just what is
prepsterous about it?

Let's say there's 4 repeating features on the screwdriver bit (the
square sides), 3 chuck fingers, and 10 grooves around the outer diameter
of the chuck. The strobe couldn't make them all appear to turn backwards
at the same RPM. Oh, yeah, there's also the threads on the drywall type
screw that are turning backwards.

I forgot to add: If you have a cite for the add clip, I would really
like to see it.

On Jul 16, 12:22*am, harry k wrote:
On Jul 15, 11:05*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Jul 14, 11:20*pm, harry k wrote:

On Jul 14, 3:41*pm, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
*harry k wrote:

On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:

Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel
go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed
changing.

Harry K

Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you
saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the
screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck,
the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly
and a very stable rate.

Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and
therefore rotate together. *Vary the speed of the drill and you would
see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction.

You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course.

Harry K

No, I didn't miss it. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMERCIAL? IF SO, do you STILL
think it is the wagon wheel effect ???????- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One more time and I am done. *I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.
You have described an everyday, common effect of strobing. *I don't
need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened when some
kook tries to explain daylight by some other method.

Try doing a google on 'stroboscopic effect' - I would be surprised if
you don't find a lot of sources explaining it and even some clips
showing it.

You have been told by several people what it is, that you don't want
to accept it...

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"I don't need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened
when some kook tries to explain daylight by some other method."

That's because there is no other explanation for daylight.

However, regardless of the existance of the "common effect of
strobing" there also exists a number of other reasons for the bit to
appear to be rotating backwards, the obvious one being that it
actually is rotating backwards.

There's also the possibility of the film being a "mirror image" of the
actual event.

I'm not claiming that the cause *isn't* the "common effect of
strobing" - although I seriously doubt that in this case it is - I'm
simply pointing out that your argument for not needing to see the
commercial based on the fact that the sun causes daylight is flawed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

True it is "possible" but Occam's razor comes into effect. *So fare
Smitty hasn't produced anything that would obviate the simple
solution.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Occam's razor comes into effect."

If you're going to play the Occam's Razor card, then the strobing
explanation should be the one that is thrown out.

"When you have two competing theories that make exactly the same
predictions, the simpler one is the better."

What's simpler: That the drill is actually running in reverse or that
the strobing effect is the cause?

I submit that the drill actually running in reverse is the simpler
explanation - IFF we are ranking the possible reasons for what we see
in terms of their complexity.

What's simpler: "Press this button and the drill spins one way or the
other." or "The 'stroboscopic effect' is explained as follows..."

BTW: Smitty Two is not talking about the same commercial - or at least
not the same segment - as I am. The clip I saw was a wood boring bit,
not a drywall screw. I have not been able to find an on-line copy of
the commercial.

BTW-2: I'm not sure if one of my earlier questions has been answered,
so I'll ask it in a slightly different manner.

First, I know that the stroboscopic effect exists; I've seen wheels
"turning backwards", so I'm not questioning the existance of the
"wagon wheel" effect.

That said, let's assume that the perception of the drill turning
backwards *is* caused by the stroboscopic effect. Is the effect
actually captured on film/digital storage or is it just preceived by
the viewer when watching the clip? The reason I ask is that, as I have
mentioned before, when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still
appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. If the effect
is captured on film, then obviously we would see it while watching the
commercial. However, if the effect is really just a "perception",
whether in real life or while viewing a commercial, then wouldn't one
have to assume that the fact that it is seen even when viewed frame by
frame means that there is some other explanation?

In article
,
harry k wrote:

On Jul 15, 9:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*harry k wrote:



Think about it for a minute: *All the parts are rotating together.
Right?
All the parts of a wheel rotate together. *Right? *So just what is
prepsterous about it?

Let's say there's 4 repeating features on the screwdriver bit (the
square sides), 3 chuck fingers, and 10 grooves around the outer diameter
of the chuck. The strobe couldn't make them all appear to turn backwards
at the same RPM. Oh, yeah, there's also the threads on the drywall type
screw that are turning backwards.

Well of course they all rotate at the same speed, they are fixed to
one another. In real life they are also rotating at the same speed so
why wouldn't they in strobe effect? The fact that some of them are
farther out from the axis does not effect their position when the
strobe hits. Somehow you seem to think that everything is rotating at
different rates

You could build a wheel 6' in diameter and tie rags aroudn the spokes
at diffent distances from the axle and they would all show the same
effect.
.
Harry K

It's an RPM (revolutions per minute) vs. RPM (repetitions per minute)
thing.

Yes all the parts rotate at the same actual RPM. But it is the
repetition of a regular feature (spokes) that causes the wagon wheel
illusion. If the drill is really turning at 100 RPM, then in my example
above, the frequency of the features going by your eye will be 400, 300,
and 1000 repetitions per minute. So as far as the wagon wheel effect is
concerned, the various parts of the drill are turning at different RPMs,
i.e. they couldn't all exhibit the effect at the same actual RPM.