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#41
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article
, DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. |
#42
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 16, 12:57*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? |
#43
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 16, 9:19*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 16, 12:22*am, harry k wrote: On Jul 15, 11:05*am, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 14, 11:20*pm, harry k wrote: On Jul 14, 3:41*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: On Jul 13, 10:22*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: Nope. *It is strobing. *In some of the old films you can see a wheel go backwards, slow, forwards. *That is caused by the wheel speed changing. Harry K Have you actually seen the commercials, Harry? I'd be surprised if you saw them and stuck by your wagon wheel effect hypothesis. In the screwdriver commercial, it doesn't matter whether you look at the chuck, the driver bit, or the screw, it's rotating the wrong way, quite clearly and a very stable rate. Of course it is an so is every part of it, they are all fixed and therefore rotate together. *Vary the speed of the drill and you would see the rotation slow, speed up or even reverse direction. You must have missed that demonstration in the HS physics course. Harry K No, I didn't miss it. HAVE YOU SEEN THE COMMERCIAL? IF SO, do you STILL think it is the wagon wheel effect ???????- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - One more time and I am done. *I DO NOT HAVE TO SEE THE COMMERCIAL.. You have described an everyday, common effect of strobing. *I don't need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened when some kook tries to explain daylight by some other method. Try doing a google on 'stroboscopic effect' - I would be surprised if you don't find a lot of sources explaining it and even some clips showing it. You have been told by several people what it is, that you don't want to accept it... Harry K- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "I don't need to see the sun come up to know that is what happened when some kook tries to explain daylight by some other method." That's because there is no other explanation for daylight. However, regardless of the existance of the "common effect of strobing" there also exists a number of other reasons for the bit to appear to be rotating backwards, the obvious one being that it actually is rotating backwards. There's also the possibility of the film being a "mirror image" of the actual event. I'm not claiming that the cause *isn't* the "common effect of strobing" - although I seriously doubt that in this case it is - I'm simply pointing out that your argument for not needing to see the commercial based on the fact that the sun causes daylight is flawed.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - True it is "possible" but Occam's razor comes into effect. *So fare Smitty hasn't produced anything that would obviate the simple solution. Harry K- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - "Occam's razor comes into effect." If you're going to play the Occam's Razor card, then the strobing explanation should be the one that is thrown out. "When you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better." What's simpler: That the drill is actually running in reverse or that the strobing effect is the cause? I submit that the drill actually running in reverse is the simpler explanation - IFF we are ranking the possible reasons for what we see in terms of their complexity. What's simpler: "Press this button and the drill spins one way or the other." or "The *'stroboscopic effect' *is explained as follows..." BTW: Smitty Two is not talking about the same commercial - or at least not the same segment - as I am. The clip I saw was a wood boring bit, not a drywall screw. I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. BTW-2: I'm not sure if one of my earlier questions has been answered, so I'll ask it in a slightly different manner. First, I know that the stroboscopic effect exists; I've seen wheels "turning backwards", so I'm not questioning the existance of the "wagon wheel" effect. That said, let's assume that the perception of the drill turning backwards *is* caused by the stroboscopic effect. Is the effect actually captured on film/digital storage or is it just preceived by the viewer when watching the clip? The reason I ask is that, as I have mentioned before, when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. If the effect is captured on film, then obviously we would see it while watching the commercial. However, if the effect is really just a "perception", whether in real life or while viewing a commercial, then wouldn't one have to assume that the fact that it is seen even when viewed frame by frame means that there is some other explanation?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Good point on Occam's razor. Good questions. Answer is Yes it is captured on _film_. I have been wondering all day about digital recording though. Frame by frame, assuming it is captured that way, would of course show the strobe effect. It is a capture of one instant in a sequence and thus does not have to played at any given speed to shwo the effect. Harry K |
#44
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 16, 11:26*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Jul 16, 12:57*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? Now I wonder too. It used to be common, especially in westerns. I can't recall seeing an example from other than old films. Harry K |
#45
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 16, 9:34*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , *harry k wrote: On Jul 15, 9:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: Think about it for a minute: *All the parts are rotating together.. Right? All the parts of a wheel rotate together. *Right? *So just what is prepsterous about it? Let's say there's 4 repeating features on the screwdriver bit (the square sides), 3 chuck fingers, and 10 grooves around the outer diameter of the chuck. The strobe couldn't make them all appear to turn backwards at the same RPM. Oh, yeah, there's also the threads on the drywall type screw that are turning backwards. Well of course they all rotate at the same speed, they are fixed to one another. In real life they are also rotating *at the same speed so why wouldn't they in strobe effect? *The fact that some of them are farther out from the axis does not effect their position when the strobe hits. Somehow you seem to think that everything is rotating at different rates You could build a wheel 6' in diameter and tie rags aroudn the spokes at diffent distances from the axle and they would all show the same effect. . Harry K It's an RPM (revolutions per minute) vs. RPM (repetitions per minute) thing. Yes all the parts rotate at the same actual RPM. But it is the repetition of a regular feature (spokes) that causes the wagon wheel illusion. If the drill is really turning at 100 RPM, then in my example above, the frequency of the features going by your eye will be 400, 300, and 1000 repetitions per minute. So as far as the wagon wheel effect is concerned, the various parts of the drill are turning at different RPMs, i.e. they couldn't all exhibit the effect at the same actual RPM.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The number of each feature doesn't matter. Look at a bicycle wheel again. Many spokes (one would do) but only 1 valve stem. The drill and all parts are all turning the same _rpm_. The features all appear at the same time because they all come around together. The ones being illuminated repeat all at the same repetition rate, I have been puzzling all day how to explain that better but can't come up with a way. Okay. Now I see what you are doing. 4 sides to bit, 3 chuck fingers, etc. It doesn't matter how many of anything shows up as the strobe will light them all 'features' at the same time and they will all be in the same physical relationship. It will, My example of rags tied to spokes shows that. It doesn't matter how many spokes you tie them to, the effect still operates. I wonder if there is a cheap strobe light out there. They were fun to play with back in HS physics. Still wondering about digital recording. Harry K |
#46
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 16, 8:55*pm, harry k wrote:
On Jul 16, 9:34*am, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: On Jul 15, 9:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: Think about it for a minute: *All the parts are rotating together. Right? All the parts of a wheel rotate together. *Right? *So just what is prepsterous about it? Let's say there's 4 repeating features on the screwdriver bit (the square sides), 3 chuck fingers, and 10 grooves around the outer diameter of the chuck. The strobe couldn't make them all appear to turn backwards at the same RPM. Oh, yeah, there's also the threads on the drywall type screw that are turning backwards. Well of course they all rotate at the same speed, they are fixed to one another. In real life they are also rotating *at the same speed so why wouldn't they in strobe effect? *The fact that some of them are farther out from the axis does not effect their position when the strobe hits. Somehow you seem to think that everything is rotating at different rates You could build a wheel 6' in diameter and tie rags aroudn the spokes at diffent distances from the axle and they would all show the same effect. . Harry K It's an RPM (revolutions per minute) vs. RPM (repetitions per minute) thing. Yes all the parts rotate at the same actual RPM. But it is the repetition of a regular feature (spokes) that causes the wagon wheel illusion. If the drill is really turning at 100 RPM, then in my example above, the frequency of the features going by your eye will be 400, 300, and 1000 repetitions per minute. So as far as the wagon wheel effect is concerned, the various parts of the drill are turning at different RPMs, i.e. they couldn't all exhibit the effect at the same actual RPM.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - The number of each feature doesn't matter. *Look at a bicycle wheel again. *Many spokes (one would do) but only 1 valve stem. * The drill and all parts are all turning the same _rpm_. *The features all appear at the same time because they all come around together. * The ones being illuminated *repeat all at the same repetition rate, I have been puzzling all day how to explain that better but can't come up with a way. Okay. *Now I see what you are doing. *4 sides to bit, 3 chuck fingers, etc. *It doesn't matter how many of anything shows up as the strobe will light them all 'features' at the same time and they will all be in the same physical relationship. It will, * My example of rags tied to spokes shows that. *It doesn't matter how many spokes you tie them to, the effect still operates. I wonder if there is a cheap strobe light out there. *They were fun to play with back in HS physics. Still wondering about digital recording. Harry K- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Another add on. Looking at it another way. The 'strobe' is in effect a flashbulb. It shows what is there at the given instant, thus you are looking at 1/2 (approximately) of the features (the ones facing the strobe) all at the same time, not individually. Harry K |
#47
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:27:23 -0700 (PDT), harry k
wrote: On Jul 16, 11:26*am, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? Now I wonder too. It used to be common, especially in westerns. I can't recall seeing an example from other than old films. Harry K Once again... The film frame rate was different than the 60 cycle timing used as the basis for television video. If something is recorded originally on video rather than film, it won't exhibit the effect, because the original recording will have used the same 60 cycle standard as the TV used to reproduce it. The reason it used to be more common is that today, less TV production work is done using photographic film as the media. |
#48
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article
, harry k wrote: The number of each feature doesn't matter. Look at a bicycle wheel again. Many spokes (one would do) but only 1 valve stem. The drill and all parts are all turning the same rpm . The features all appear at the same time because they all come around together. The ones being illuminated repeat all at the same repetition rate, I have been puzzling all day how to explain that better but can't come up with a way. Of course the number of features matter. This is the way the illusion works: In your mind, superimpose a four-spoke wheel on a clock face, with spokes pointing to 12,3,6, and 9. Label the spokes A,B,C, and D, respectively. Now, turn the wheel clockwise. Let's say you turn it 1/6 revolution, a.k.a. 60 degrees, a.k.a. "two hours" of rotation. So A is pointing to 2, B to 5, C to 8, and D to 11. But during the rotation, turn off the light, close your eyes, whatever. Now what happens in the mind is that it misinterprets what the eye sees. It makes more sense to the mind that the spokes have each moved backwards one hour, rather than forwards two hours. So you think that A moved from 12 to 11, rather than from 12 to 2. Of course, it isn't A that you're seeing at 11, it's D. But A and D look the same, because they're identical spokes. The mind wants to believe that while the lights were out, things moved as little as possible. So it sees the rotation slowly in reverse, rather than more quickly in forwards. Now superimpose another set of different features, but say there's six of them instead of four. Call them A2, B2, C2, D2, E2, F2. Now with each 60 degree rotational increment, each of those features also moves "two hours." But they were already at 2 hour increments from one another (as opposed to 3 hour increments for the 4-feature set.) So now, A2 takes the exact place of B2, B2 takes the place of C2, etc. Result is that this feature set will appear to stand still. Finally let's look at a ten feature set, A3 through J3. Now they don't all start out lined up with clockface numerals. A3 is lined up with 12 o'clock, and F3 is lined up with 6 o'clock, but the rest of them are some fractional hours. So it will be easier to consider degrees of rotation instead of clock readings. 360 degrees / 10 = 36 degrees. The last "spoke" (J3) in this feature set is located at 360 - 36 = 324 degrees. After one 60 degree incremental movement, A3 will be at 60 degrees, and J3 will be at 24 degrees. The mind wants to see minimal change of position, so it now sees J3 as A3, and believes that the wheel is rotating slowly clockwise (24 degrees per increment instead of 60) So, if you've followed this along, I hope you can see that the number of features is critical to whether the mind sees forward motion, backward motion, or a standstill, and that the apparent motion, either forwards of backwards, is also slower than what's actually happening. In the commercial, the different parts of the drill have different numbers of features, so can't exhibit the same illusion at the same RPM. |
#49
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article
, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out. |
#50
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
"Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57 pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out. if you look at video camera specs, they all have a "shutter speed" even though there is no real shutter. that's the rate the computer can poll the video chip, as it has to poll almost every location at very close to the same time or you'd get smearing of the video picture. thus, a video or film camera would still show the same phenomon of strobing on rotating parts. regards, charlie cave creek, az |
#51
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
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#52
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
wrote in message ... On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:14:20 -0700, "charlie" wrote: "Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57 pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out. if you look at video camera specs, they all have a "shutter speed" even though there is no real shutter. that's the rate the computer can poll the video chip, as it has to poll almost every location at very close to the same time or you'd get smearing of the video picture. thus, a video or film camera would still show the same phenomon of strobing on rotating parts. regards, charlie cave creek, az Incorrect. The strobing on rotating parts is visible due to the difference in frame rate (shutter speed) and the timing standard frequency of the video equipment. IOW film played back on a TV set. please reread for comprehension. you basically restated what i said. the question was whether a video camera rather than a film camera would cause the problem, and the answer is yes, as they both have "shutters" |
#53
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
wrote in message ... On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:41:04 -0700, "charlie" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:14:20 -0700, "charlie" wrote: "Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57 pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out. if you look at video camera specs, they all have a "shutter speed" even though there is no real shutter. that's the rate the computer can poll the video chip, as it has to poll almost every location at very close to the same time or you'd get smearing of the video picture. thus, a video or film camera would still show the same phenomon of strobing on rotating parts. regards, charlie cave creek, az Incorrect. The strobing on rotating parts is visible due to the difference in frame rate (shutter speed) and the timing standard frequency of the video equipment. IOW film played back on a TV set. please reread for comprehension. you basically restated what i said. the question was whether a video camera rather than a film camera would cause the problem, and the answer is yes, as they both have "shutters" No, you are missing a vital piece of the puzzle. All faux shutter speeds in a video camera are based on the 60 cycle standard. Film cameras do not use that standard for shutter speeds. If you use a film camera to film the screen of a TV, the screen on the TV will appear to roll for this reason. why would a digital video camera, running on dc internally, have a standard based on 60 cycles? http://www.mediacollege.com/video/camera/shutter/ http://www.videomaker.com/article/10418/ in reality, it doesn't. typical video shutter speeds are between 1/1000 to 1/2000 second. the display on a tv is based upon 1/2 of the ac line current. that has nothing to do with the shutter speed of the camera. |
#54
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 17, 11:00*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... *seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one Except that Charlie has now joined the discussion! g In any case, I'm gonna step out 'cuz I'm going on vacation next week and won't have too much access to a computer. It was fun getting this thread started and I'll catch up when I get back. |
#55
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 17, 8:24*am, bud-- wrote:
wrote: On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:27:23 -0700 (PDT), harry k wrote: On Jul 16, 11:26 am, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57 pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? If it is "wagon wheel" effect it would be on your DVR. If it were mirror image it would be on your DVR and you would have to have a reference, like text, to tell the difference. If it were video played in reverse direction it would be on your DVR and you would have to have a reference, like unreasonable sequence, to tell the difference. TV and film motion is "perception" from still pictures. Now I wonder too. *It used to be common, especially in westerns. *I can't recall seeing an example from other than old films. Wagon wheels are large with a very visible pattern. Car hub caps are small and don't have near as much pattern, if any. And anyone who shoots now should be aware of the effect so they can avoid it. I have seen modern car commercials with the wheels going backwards, or forwards at the wrong speed. And I suspect we are aware of the effect and ignore it. Once again... The film frame rate was different than the 60 cycle timing used as the basis for television video. If something is recorded originally on video rather than film, it won't exhibit the effect, because the original recording will have used the same 60 cycle standard as the TV used to reproduce it. The reason it used to be more common is that today, less TV production work is done using photographic film as the media. It can certainly be picked up in video recording. If a wagon wheel is rotating clockwise and the 1st frame/field has a spoke at 12:00, the next frame has a spoke at 11:30, the next frame has a spoke at 11:00... the wheel will appear to go backwards. You are not viewing a rotating wagon wheel. You are viewing a series of still pictures that are perceived as rotation. It is a strobe effect. -- bud--- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Exactly! Some of thed posters seem to think they are view 'moving pictures' rather than a series of still shots. Harry K |
#56
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 17, 8:14*am, "charlie" wrote:
"Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57 pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... *seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out. if you look at video camera specs, they all have a "shutter speed" even though there is no real shutter. that's the rate the computer can poll the video chip, as it has to poll almost every location at very close to the same time or you'd get smearing of the video picture. thus, a video or film camera would still show the same phenomon of strobing on rotating parts. regards, charlie cave creek, az- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks, I was wonderig about the video "shutter". Harry K |
#57
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 17, 7:53*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , *harry k wrote: The number of each feature doesn't matter. *Look at a bicycle wheel again. *Many spokes (one would do) but only 1 valve stem. * The drill and all parts are all turning the same *rpm . *The features all appear at the same time because they all come around together. * The ones being illuminated *repeat all at the same repetition rate, I have been puzzling all day how to explain that better but can't come up with a way. Of course the number of features matter. This is the way the illusion works: In your mind, superimpose a four-spoke wheel on a clock face, with spokes pointing to 12,3,6, and 9. Label the spokes A,B,C, and D, respectively. Now, turn the wheel clockwise. Let's say you turn it 1/6 revolution, a.k.a. 60 degrees, a.k.a. "two hours" of rotation. So A is pointing to 2, B to 5, C to 8, and D to 11. But during the rotation, turn off the light, close your eyes, whatever. Now what happens in the mind is that it misinterprets what the eye sees. It makes more sense to the mind that the spokes have each moved backwards one hour, rather than forwards two hours. So you think that A moved from 12 to 11, rather than from 12 to 2. Of course, it isn't A that you're seeing at 11, it's D. But A and D look the same, because they're identical spokes. The mind wants to believe that while the lights were out, things moved as little as possible. So it sees the rotation slowly in reverse, rather than more quickly in forwards. Now superimpose another set of different features, but say there's six of them instead of four. Call them A2, B2, C2, D2, E2, F2. Now with each * 60 degree rotational increment, each of those features also moves "two hours." But they were already at 2 hour increments from one another (as opposed to 3 hour increments for the 4-feature set.) So now, A2 takes the exact place of B2, B2 takes the place of C2, etc. Result is that this feature set will appear to stand still. Finally let's look at a ten feature set, A3 through J3. Now they don't all start out lined up with clockface numerals. A3 is lined up with 12 o'clock, and F3 is lined up with 6 o'clock, but the rest of them are some fractional hours. So it will be easier to consider degrees of rotation instead of clock readings. 360 degrees / 10 = 36 degrees. The last "spoke" (J3) in this feature set is located at 360 - 36 = 324 degrees. After one 60 degree incremental movement, A3 will be at 60 degrees, and J3 will be at 24 degrees. The mind wants to see minimal change of position, so it now sees J3 as A3, and believes that the wheel is rotating slowly clockwise (24 degrees per increment instead of 60) So, if you've followed this along, I hope you can see that the number of features is critical to whether the mind sees forward motion, backward motion, or a standstill, and that the apparent motion, either forwards of backwards, is also slower than what's actually happening. In the commercial, the different parts of the drill have different numbers of features, so can't exhibit the same illusion at the same RPM. I repeat. Teh strobe takes a "still picture" not a moving picture. If it is timed to show reverse rotation then the same features _all_ of them visible will be in the right location each time the strobe fires. You can keep fighting it but you are wrong. Visit your local HS and talke to the physics teacher, I have resorted to that in the past and found out I was wrong on a point once. Harry K |
#58
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article
, harry k wrote: I repeat. Teh strobe takes a "still picture" not a moving picture. Exactly. You can keep fighting it but you are wrong. Sorry, but I'm sure you either didn't read my post, or didn't comprehend it. I admit it's lengthy and a bit tedious to think through, but it accurately explains the phenomenon, and details why the number of features does matter. But I really am done with this one now. Let us know if you ever actually see the commercial. |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
charlie wrote:
wrote in message ... On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:41:04 -0700, "charlie" wrote: wrote in message ... On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:14:20 -0700, "charlie" wrote: "Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 16, 12:57 pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: I have not been able to find an on-line copy of the commercial. snip when I run my DVR in frame-by-frame mode, it still appears that the drill and bit is rotating in reverse. Step up to the plate in the name of science, and be the first to post your clip online. I don't have a "clip". I rewound the DVR while watching the show and stepped through the commercial to see what it looked like in slow motion. I did not record the show. Ah, sorry, I'm DVR impaired. That said, I'm still looking for an answer to my question: Would the wagon wheel effect be captured while filming the commercial and thus be captured by my DVR or is the wagon wheel effect "perception" in all cases? I'm not sure that I understand your question, and I'm not sure that I could answer it if I did ... seems we're down to you, me, and harry on this one so we'll see whether we all have enough interest in the topic to keep ferreting things out. if you look at video camera specs, they all have a "shutter speed" even though there is no real shutter. that's the rate the computer can poll the video chip, as it has to poll almost every location at very close to the same time or you'd get smearing of the video picture. thus, a video or film camera would still show the same phenomon of strobing on rotating parts. regards, charlie cave creek, az Incorrect. The strobing on rotating parts is visible due to the difference in frame rate (shutter speed) and the timing standard frequency of the video equipment. IOW film played back on a TV set. please reread for comprehension. you basically restated what i said. the question was whether a video camera rather than a film camera would cause the problem, and the answer is yes, as they both have "shutters" No, you are missing a vital piece of the puzzle. All faux shutter speeds in a video camera are based on the 60 cycle standard. Film cameras do not use that standard for shutter speeds. If you use a film camera to film the screen of a TV, the screen on the TV will appear to roll for this reason. why would a digital video camera, running on dc internally, have a standard based on 60 cycles? http://www.mediacollege.com/video/camera/shutter/ http://www.videomaker.com/article/10418/ in reality, it doesn't. typical video shutter speeds are between 1/1000 to 1/2000 second. the display on a tv is based upon 1/2 of the ac line current. that has nothing to do with the shutter speed of the camera. salty is talking about frame rate. It is a few posts above - "frame rate (shutter speed)". The frame rate is standardized at 60Hz. (Actually I am not sure for digital TV. Analog TV had a frame rate of 30 per sec - near the film frame rate of 24 per sec - and a 1/2 frame interlaced line field rate of 60 per sec.) -- bud-- -- bud-- |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
On Jul 17, 10:36*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , *harry k wrote: I repeat. *Teh strobe takes a "still picture" not a moving picture. Exactly. You can keep fighting it but you are wrong. * Sorry, but I'm sure you either didn't read my post, or didn't comprehend it. I admit it's lengthy and a bit tedious to think through, but it accurately explains the phenomenon, and details why the number of features does matter. But I really am done with this one now. Let us know if you ever actually see the commercial. Okay, one last (I hope) try. Mentally draw a line through the screw, the flat of the bit, the chuck 'finger'. Snap - one frame. Advance to the next frame and you will see the same line through the same flat and the same 'finger' just advanced a bit. Next frame and you get the same thing. You are seeing the _same_ features just advanced a bit each frame. Using your logic, the 'wheel effect' is impossible as there are always more than one feature. Harry K |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
harry k wrote:
-snip- I went googling for the commercial. I'm not very good at specifying search words. Found lots of hits, but no videos. I'm pretty good at finding stuff. No luck. I even recorded 3 hours of Ice Road Truckers yesterday so I could scan through and find the commercial. Not a single Craftsman commercial in the bunch. [I was weird fast forwarding through the show to see the commercials. Thought it was superbowl sunday all over again] If anyone knows where the video of that commercial might be-- or another Craftsman supported show- please post. Jim |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
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#63
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
stan wrote: On Jul 13, 11:22*am, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Jul 13, 8:16*am, "Colbyt" wrote: "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ... I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their cordless tool lines. They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not coming towards the viewer. Has anybody else seen this? If you watch TV films closely you can see the same thing with cars wheels in close-ups. I recall seeing this a lot on the old Bonanza TV series with the wagon wheels. It is a function of the filming process.The *film image is a mirror image of the actual event. -- Colbyt Please come visit *www.househomerepair.com The *film image is a mirror image of the actual event. Then why isn't *everything*, including any text, backwards?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - That's a digression. . What we have been discussing is 'timing'; as each part of something rotating (in the case of wheels it could be identical-looking spokes for example) comes into each frame of a film or TV picture. It may then appear to be ahead of or behind the one seen in the preceding frame. So the item my 'appear' to rotate either forwards or backwards. Mirror or not; viewing film is a matter of the optics used and how the film is then projected onto either a screen or into a TV transmitter. It was possible in some film installations, for example, to adjust the focal length etc. of the projector so that the picture could be seen reversed and/or perhaps upside down! WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!? (Hmmm. The date -- nope, not 1apr09.) Either one early suggestion is what's happening, he's coming OUT of the hole (or maybe he's just TESTING the gears in the drill?, or even knowing it'll be on a tv series, watched by people from HERE, sabototaging us by planting a flame-war seed?), or it's that old cowboy-movie-effect of wagon-wheels APPEARING to be turning BACKWARDS (while in full flight from the indians). Easy demonstration. Look at the TV. Now, either spread out your fingers and WITH ALL POSSIBLE SPEED wave your hand back and forth between your eyes and the tv. Better, put a FAN between you and the tv, and look THROUGH the fan at the tv. Better yet, no tv, put TWO fans together, and through both look out the window or somewhere bright enough -- unless the fans are going at the EXACT same speed (in which case you're looking at ONE fan with WIDER blades), you'll see a slow movement of an "artifact" (someone please say it with a bit more care and accuracy) invented (as is everything visual, I guess) by your brain. Or, get two not-so-well-tuned pianos and simultaneously hit the same key on each. Here that warbling sound? Similar effect. Maybe. Maybe I've gone way too far off on a tanget from wagon-wheels. Someone can surely improve on what I'm saying. David |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote: because the screw kept going in. AH HA! David |
#65
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
stan wrote: On Jul 13, 10:49*am, The Daring Dufas wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: I was watching Ice Road Truckers last night, which is sponsored by Craftsman, so they kept running this commercial for one of their cordless tool lines. They show one clip where the guy is drilling into a piece of wood attached to a tree - steps to a tree house maybe - with a wood boring bit. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but I'd swear the drill is running backwards - *counter clockwise. I rewound my DVR a bunch of times, and ran it it slow motion. It sure looked to me like the bottom of the bit was coming up and the 3/8" marking was going away from, not coming towards the viewer. Has anybody else seen this? Did you consider the fact that the guy is an actor. The drill may actually be turning backwards because the actors and directors don't have a clue. I know, I'm being fecesious (sic). TDD Yup facetious. Happens often with films and TV because the picture we see is actually some 25 to 30 snapshots (or frames) per second. For example, with TV, older TV anyway not necessarily digital and HD, it it is presented to us so that alternate lines are scanned and viewed first each frame and then during the same frame it goes back and does the intervening lines. In fact any thing rotating may appear to be either going forwards or backwards. Doesn't mean a thing. But maybe the hole had been drilled by the fifth take and they are now on their 15th and the actor is basically instructed to "Here; hold this and pretend you are drilling. And oh, by the way look happy about it ......"! :-) NOW we're talkin! David |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
Larry The Snake Guy wrote: On Jul 13, 11:35*am, Smitty Two wrote: In article I've read the respondents thus far who attribute it to the wagon wheel effect, and I don't think that's what's going on at all. The wagon wheel effect happens in real life, not just TV, so it isn't a "frames per second" issue. Well, ,it's a frames-per-second issue SOMEWHERE. Hmmm. Agent Orange, maybe? Nerve-gas in Iraq? Some delayed effect from DU dust? Very, very sorry, friend (PRIOR poster to snake guy), but your nervous system may be crapping-out -- and THAT's where the intermittent (sp?) visual transmission is coming from. :-( (All in jest, I hope I'm being taken.) BUT -- sure as hell, if you'd gone to the VA to have it checked, Bush & Co. would have closed that hospital as soon as you arrived -- and the next one too, and also the one after that. But that's a whole other EXTREMELY depressing subject. Aboout the "patriots" we elect to rule us. David |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
Smitty Two wrote: In article , DerbyDad03 wrote: What possible advantage would it be for the editor or layout person to "flip" the drill direction around? The reversal of the drill direction would be an *unintended* consequence of reversing the picture so that, for example, the person is on the left and the drill is on the right. I've got the answer! It was done in the U.K.! g David |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
harry k wrote: On Jul 16, 9:34*am, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: On Jul 15, 9:42*pm, Smitty Two wrote: In article , *harry k wrote: .... I wonder if there is a cheap strobe light out there. They were fun to play with back in HS physics. Shine a bright light-BEAM, in a DARK ROOM, through a fan, and have someone swing a yo-yo or something in a circle -- and vary the yoyo-speed, and the fan-speed. MAYBE the effect will show up. AH! Or have the through-the-fan light-beam shine on ANOTHER fan! Try them BOTH. (Dog chasing tail?) David |
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
In article ,
bud-- wrote: .... .... salty is talking about frame rate. It is a few posts above - "frame rate (shutter speed)". ... I know you don't mean that, just mis-written. The SHUTTER-SPEED is how LONG the shutter STAYS OPEN for a SINGLE picture. If you take only one picture a year, your FRAME-RATE -- well, photo-taking rate, maybe -- is ONE per YEAR, the "dimensional units" of that being "photos / amount-of-time-taken-by-your-photo-taking", something like that. A movie or video photographed or "taken" as above would be in VERY "SLOW-MOTION". (That is, if you VIEWED it at eg 50 or 60 or whatever frames (pictures) per second.) Shutter-speed describes a SINGLE picture or frame -- if there's 5000 pictures or frames to be shown rapidly, one after the other, that shutter-speed describes EACH SINGLE ONE (presumably). Frame-rate is "independent" of (some say "orthogonal to") that -- hey, I'm out of words, what else can I say, huh? David |
#70
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Craftsman Commercial - Drilling In Reverse?
David Combs wrote:
In article , bud-- wrote: ... ... salty is talking about frame rate. It is a few posts above - "frame rate (shutter speed)". ... I know you don't mean that, just mis-written. Of course I mean it. salty said "All faux shutter speeds in a video camera are based on the 60 cycle standard." charlie said *shutter speeds* are not based on 60 cycles, which is correct. But salty is clearly referring to a *frame rate*, which is based on "the 60 cycle standard". The SHUTTER-SPEED is how LONG the shutter STAYS OPEN for a SINGLE picture. If you take only one picture a year, your FRAME-RATE -- well, photo-taking rate, maybe -- is ONE per YEAR, the "dimensional units" of that being "photos / amount-of-time-taken-by-your-photo-taking", something like that. A movie or video photographed or "taken" as above would be in VERY "SLOW-MOTION". (That is, if you VIEWED it at eg 50 or 60 or whatever frames (pictures) per second.) Shutter-speed describes a SINGLE picture or frame -- if there's 5000 pictures or frames to be shown rapidly, one after the other, that shutter-speed describes EACH SINGLE ONE (presumably). Frame-rate is "independent" of (some say "orthogonal to") that -- hey, I'm out of words, what else can I say, huh? Most of us know all that. -- bud-- |
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