It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to learn how
to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the proper tools to
do the job. The thing being either you pay someone else to do it, or you do
it yourself the correct way and with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn about how
to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask on the internet
and seem to want someone to do all the work for them and tell them exactly
what to do. And they think they can do ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me
how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things require
learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if you are not
willing to take the time to learn about something. And that some things can
take years to learn about...

Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to learn how
to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the proper tools to
do the job. The thing being either you pay someone else to do it, or you do
it yourself the correct way and with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn about how
to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask on the internet
and seem to want someone to do all the work for them and tell them exactly
what to do. And they think they can do ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me
how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things require
learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if you are not
willing to take the time to learn about something. And that some things can
take years to learn about...


When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

TDD

The Daring Dufas wondered in message
...
[snip]
When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

In the local districts to me the middle schools still have sewing, wood and
metal, cooking, and art classes. The local high school systems still offer
woods and metals but sewing and art (I believe) were removed because of
insurane issues -- needles can be used as weapons and someone might burn the
school down with the kiln or some such stupidity. Cooking is still offered,
too, but it's probably going to go the way of auto shop soon. Trade and
vocational schools just didn't make a large enough profit. The local
community college is having greater difficulty meeting OSHA regulations so
their nationally recognized (and hugely popular) auto shop is looking to get
closed down.

Vocational and trade schools just don't make a super-profit and we are a
white-collar society, truly afraid of any blue-collar work... shrug

The Ranger

The Ranger wrote:
The Daring Dufas wondered in message
...
[snip]
When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

In the local districts to me the middle schools still have sewing, wood and
metal, cooking, and art classes. The local high school systems still offer
woods and metals but sewing and art (I believe) were removed because of
insurane issues -- needles can be used as weapons and someone might burn the
school down with the kiln or some such stupidity. Cooking is still offered,
too, but it's probably going to go the way of auto shop soon. Trade and
vocational schools just didn't make a large enough profit. The local
community college is having greater difficulty meeting OSHA regulations so
their nationally recognized (and hugely popular) auto shop is looking to get
closed down.

Vocational and trade schools just don't make a super-profit and we are a
white-collar society, truly afraid of any blue-collar work... shrug

The Ranger



It's a shame because kids are hungry for knowledge
despite what some pessimistic news reports may say.
I you feed them crap, well you are what you eat.
I'd like to see a good old apprenticeship program
added to the educational structure of the United
States. If a kid wants to learn, make it profitable
for private industry to help them do so. I know a
lot of guys like me who would be glad to pass on
our skill set to a younger generation but can not
afford to do so because we're too small as companies
and don't have the resources.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to
learn how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the
proper tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay someone
else to do it, or you do it yourself the correct way and with the
proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn
about how to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask on
the internet and seem to want someone to do all the work for them and
tell them exactly what to do. And they think they can do ANYTHING
themselves! ("Just tell me how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things
require learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if you
are not willing to take the time to learn about something. And that
some things can take years to learn about...


When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same time.
I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and Girl's
Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room. Something to do
with lawyers.

Patrick Karl wrote:

I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same
time. I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and
Girl's Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room. Something to
do with lawyers.

That sounds about right, and if any kid every feels bad about his art not
being appreciated enough it will be converted to a Self-esteem and Personal
Expression Encouragement Module, staffed by mimes.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to
learn how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the
proper tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay someone
else to do it, or you do it yourself the correct way and with the
proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn
about how to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask on
the internet and seem to want someone to do all the work for them and
tell them exactly what to do. And they think they can do ANYTHING
themselves! ("Just tell me how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things
require learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if you
are not willing to take the time to learn about something. And that
some things can take years to learn about...


When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

TDD

Town I grew up in, shop class was a junior high thing, and did not teach
anything actually useful. Who has a lathe at home, or a casting furnace?
An artifact of an era when 2/3 of the HS graduates would be getting jobs
in places like that, but still taught several years too early to be useful.

I learned most of what I know about construction from hanging out on job
sites from single-digit age. First few years, pushing a broom and
wielding a scoop shovel, but still educational. Didn't even realize I
was learning, at the time. Ended up driving a desk for a living after
college, because I realized I liked having Heat and A/C, instead of
whatever mother nature provided, not to mention a regular reliable
paycheck. (Things that are rather iffy at times in the trades.) But I do
miss it sometimes, aside from the part about dealing with clueless
silly-ass customers.

--
aem sends...

On Apr 26, 9:06*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to learn how
to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the proper tools to
do the job. The thing being either you pay someone else to do it, or you do
it yourself the correct way and with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn about how
to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask on the internet
and seem to want someone to do all the work for them and tell them exactly
what to do. And they think they can do ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me
how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things require
learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if you are not
willing to take the time to learn about something. And that some things can
take years to learn about...

When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

TDD

Drama classes have replaced them, the metal shop was turned into a
mini-stage.


cheers
Bob

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 08:54:17 -0700, Bill wrote:

It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to learn
how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the proper
tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay someone else to do
it, or you do it yourself the correct way and with the proper tools...

Nah, it was never like that. Sure, *some* people did that and some still
do. You're just more exposed now to some of those who don't.

Just like it is not any more dangerous to be a kid now than it was 30
years ago. We just didn't have all the bad possibilities thrust into our
face via the media like we do now.

evodawg wrote in
:

Patrick Karl wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to
learn how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase
the proper tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay
someone else to do it, or you do it yourself the correct way and
with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn
about how to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask
on the internet and seem to want someone to do all the work for
them and tell them exactly what to do. And they think they can do
ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things
require learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if
you are not willing to take the time to learn about something. And
that some things can take years to learn about...


When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same
time.
I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and
Girl's
Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room. Something to
do with lawyers.
Yeah Lawyers have a tendency to ruin everything. I wonder how we got
along without them 30-40 years ago??? Better put on my helmet I'm
going down stairs now.


I picked up one of those magnetic trays yesterday for small parts sold
for auto work. On the box it actually said to wear safety glasses when
using it.

"DGDevin" wrote in
:

Patrick Karl wrote:

I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same
time. I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and
Girl's Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room.
Something to do with lawyers.

That sounds about right, and if any kid every feels bad about his art
not being appreciated enough it will be converted to a Self-esteem and
Personal Expression Encouragement Module, staffed by mimes.



I can just see it today where a shop teacher can't tell a kid he's not
doing it right because it might hurt his feelings. "That's a fine stool son
for a room with a 15° slope."

Ol' Mr. Ampagoomia from HS wood shop wouldn't have fared well with is
"Green you ****ing asshole! You tryin' to kill somebody?!"

Red Green wrote:
evodawg wrote in
:

Patrick Karl wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to
learn how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase
the proper tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay
someone else to do it, or you do it yourself the correct way and
with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn
about how to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask
on the internet and seem to want someone to do all the work for
them and tell them exactly what to do. And they think they can do
ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things
require learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if
you are not willing to take the time to learn about something. And
that some things can take years to learn about...

When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?
I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same
time.
I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and
Girl's
Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room. Something to
do with lawyers.
Yeah Lawyers have a tendency to ruin everything. I wonder how we got
along without them 30-40 years ago??? Better put on my helmet I'm
going down stairs now.


I picked up one of those magnetic trays yesterday for small parts sold
for auto work. On the box it actually said to wear safety glasses when
using it.

Hell, it says that on a package of condoms. *snicker*

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Red Green wrote:
evodawg wrote in
:
Patrick Karl wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to
learn how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase
the proper tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay
someone else to do it, or you do it yourself the correct way and
with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn
about how to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask
on the internet and seem to want someone to do all the work for
them and tell them exactly what to do. And they think they can do
ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things
require learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if
you are not willing to take the time to learn about something. And
that some things can take years to learn about...

When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?
I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same
time. I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and
Girl's Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room.
Something to
do with lawyers.
Yeah Lawyers have a tendency to ruin everything. I wonder how we got
along without them 30-40 years ago??? Better put on my helmet I'm
going down stairs now.


I picked up one of those magnetic trays yesterday for small parts sold
for auto work. On the box it actually said to wear safety glasses when
using it.

Hell, it says that on a package of condoms. *snicker*

TDD

you'll shoot your eye out!

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Red Green wrote:
evodawg wrote in
:
Patrick Karl wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Bill wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to
learn how to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase
the proper tools to do the job. The thing being either you pay
someone else to do it, or you do it yourself the correct way and
with the proper tools...

These days I'm seeing a lot of people who don't even TRY to learn
about how to do something and don't want to buy the tools. They ask
on the internet and seem to want someone to do all the work for
them and tell them exactly what to do. And they think they can do
ANYTHING themselves! ("Just tell me how to fix this!")

I think this is because of all of those DIY shows on TV.

They need a new set of shows on TV which explain that some things
require learning and proper tools. Or that you need to call pro if
you are not willing to take the time to learn about something. And
that some things can take years to learn about...

When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?
I first learned about woodworking at the Boy's Club about the same
time. I recently toured the same facility, now called the Boy's and
Girl's Club. The old shop has been replaced by an Art Room.
Something to
do with lawyers.
Yeah Lawyers have a tendency to ruin everything. I wonder how we got
along without them 30-40 years ago??? Better put on my helmet I'm
going down stairs now.


I picked up one of those magnetic trays yesterday for small parts
sold for auto work. On the box it actually said to wear safety
glasses when using it.

Hell, it says that on a package of condoms. *snicker*

TDD

you'll shoot your eye out!


This is my weapon, this is my gun.
This is for fighting, this is for fun.

TDD

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:51:28 -0500, Red Green
wrote:

-snip-

Ol' Mr. Ampagoomia from HS wood shop wouldn't have fared well with is
"Green you ****ing asshole! You tryin' to kill somebody?!"

Chuckle-- He was called Mr. Farone in my HS. [his prep for teaching
shop - which included wood and autos- was 4 yrs as a USMC Drill Sgt. ]

Jim

On Apr 26, 12:06*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-
wrote:
When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

I don't know what shop class you went to, but the mandatory shop
classes I took in high school didn't teach you a thing about home
improvement. They tought you things like how to use ridiculously
expensive shop tools like you see on New Yankee Workshop, that an
average homeowner would never need. We learned how to injection mold
plastic. We learned how to pound sand molds for casting aluminum. We
learned resin molding and vacuum forming. We got a taste of lots of
"trade" skills.

We never touched a circular saw. We never worked with 2x4s, plumbing,
or electrical. That was a special course for delinquents to take in
their senior year so their grade point average would be high enough to
graduate, where they built a tool shed.

On Apr 26, 8:54*am, "Bill" wrote:
It used to be that people with DIY projects would take the time to learn how
to do something (buy and read books) and would purchase the proper tools to
do the job.

snip

I agree with lots of that. However, I also beleive the Internet is a
viable replacement for buying books on a subject, just as I beleive
asking for and sharing knowledge is a voluntary exchange of info -
along with the caveats that have to be assumed when dealing with
people whose expertise may be imaginary. People who base their own
projects on DIY shows soon learn some very valuable lessons. So, do
you learn your lesson from screwing up, or from doing all the research
up front? I'd say it's about 50/50.

About 5 years ago I purchased a remote, run-down cabin. With the
occassional assistance of pros, I managed to replace all the plumbing,
upgrade the electrical, remove and replace rotten floors, deck,
windows, doors, paint, woodstove, the list goes on. I had the
advantage of not needing things to be done all that quickly or with
perfect results. In other words, with a few reference materials I had
the luxury of being able to self-teach. This reduced my screw-ups to
maybe 25% from 50 ;-)

I think anyone with a desire to create would get a lot of enjoyment
out of the type of improvements I did. Certainly after my week of
city work, getting to a remote location to build a deck seems like a
vacation. Substitute your own creative outlet for my remodel
project...

The other advantage of my project environment is that there is no TV
and no computer, until last year, no phone. There is time to assess,
think through options and make the best decision you can. There is
time enough during the week to research approaches and codes, etc.

If I had it to do over again, I would certainly change a few things.
Due to money contraints I certainly did NOT get good quality tools -
at least at first. That is truly a mistake if you are going to use a
tool a lot - the OP was dead right about that one.

Jim Elbrecht wrote in
:

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:51:28 -0500, Red Green
wrote:

-snip-

Ol' Mr. Ampagoomia from HS wood shop wouldn't have fared well with is
"Green you ****ing asshole! You tryin' to kill somebody?!"

Chuckle-- He was called Mr. Farone in my HS. [his prep for teaching
shop - which included wood and autos- was 4 yrs as a USMC Drill Sgt. ]

Jim

We remember their names. That's gotta say something. Either a prick or
someone you felt made a difference to you.

Red Green wrote:

Jim Elbrecht wrote in
:

On Sun, 26 Apr 2009 17:51:28 -0500, Red Green
wrote:

-snip-

Ol' Mr. Ampagoomia from HS wood shop wouldn't have fared well with is
"Green you ****ing asshole! You tryin' to kill somebody?!"

Chuckle-- He was called Mr. Farone in my HS. [his prep for teaching
shop - which included wood and autos- was 4 yrs as a USMC Drill Sgt. ]

Jim

We remember their names. That's gotta say something. Either a prick or
someone you felt made a difference to you.

Both-- It's been 40-some yrs and his voice still reminds me when I'm
doing something stupid in the shop.

As I think about it, it is quite often the prick who made positive
differences in my life. The real nice-guy bosses I've had are, for
the most part, forgettable. The few gen-u-ine A-holes I''ve had have
taught me valuable lessons. [including officers and NCOs I butted
heads with in the marines]

Jim

wrote:
On Apr 26, 12:06 pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-
wrote:
When I was a kid back in the middle of the last
century, "shop" was a class taught in the schools.
I wonder if there is anything like that in schools
today?

I don't know what shop class you went to, but the mandatory shop
classes I took in high school didn't teach you a thing about home
improvement. They tought you things like how to use ridiculously
expensive shop tools like you see on New Yankee Workshop, that an
average homeowner would never need. We learned how to injection mold
plastic. We learned how to pound sand molds for casting aluminum. We
learned resin molding and vacuum forming. We got a taste of lots of
"trade" skills.

We never touched a circular saw. We never worked with 2x4s, plumbing,
or electrical. That was a special course for delinquents to take in
their senior year so their grade point average would be high enough to
graduate, where they built a tool shed.

DANG! We didn't have cool stuff like that!

TDD