Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam

On Mar 16, 11:18*am, Elam wrote:
Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpghttp...rch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. *Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam

I'd call that a front step, not a porch. It's impossible to evaluate
the whole thing from the couple of pics. But from what I see, it
looks so deteriorated that from a practical standpoint you are
probably going to be better off demolishing what is there and starting
over. You need to find out if there are adequate footers to support
it. If so, you can get rid of eveything above that and rebuild. If
not, start with proper footers

You may want to consider putting in slate, stone, or maybe stamped
concrete for the top surface to give it a nicer look.

On Mar 16, 11:56*am, wrote:
On Mar 16, 11:18*am, Elam wrote:



Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpghttp...rch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. *Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam

I'd call that a front step, not a porch. *It's impossible to evaluate
the whole thing from the couple of pics. * But from what I see, it
looks so deteriorated that from a practical standpoint you are
probably going to be better off demolishing what is there and starting
over. * You need to find out if there are adequate footers to support
it. *If so, you can get rid of eveything above that and rebuild. *If
not, start with proper footers

You may want to consider putting in slate, stone, or maybe stamped
concrete for the top surface to give it a nicer look.

Hi. Thanks for replying.

The front step is actually pulled away, revealing the decay.

The base foundation looks good(from what I can see), no crumbling and
the slab cap is in fine condition. It's really only the individual
cinder blocks. T. I've had a couple of contractors out to look at it
and they've both said its simply a matter of replacing the
cinderblocks. I can't really afford to demolish the whole thing right
now, anyway.

I am planning on putting a slate veneer on it when it's done, although
with Michigan winters, it may not last too long.

On Mar 16, 10:18*am, Elam wrote:
Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpghttp...rch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. *Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam

Is that a mini porch with no steps, if so it seems useless. Slate gets
very slippery when old and wet and bonding morter to old concrete
requires alot of work. Didnt you ever see road machines gouge the old
road. If its not prepped right you will have a bigger mess in a few
years.

On Mar 16, 12:41*pm, Elam wrote:
On Mar 16, 11:56*am, wrote:





On Mar 16, 11:18*am, Elam wrote:

Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpghttp...rch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. *Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam

I'd call that a front step, not a porch. *It's impossible to evaluate
the whole thing from the couple of pics. * But from what I see, it
looks so deteriorated that from a practical standpoint you are
probably going to be better off demolishing what is there and starting
over. * You need to find out if there are adequate footers to support
it. *If so, you can get rid of eveything above that and rebuild. *If
not, start with proper footers

You may want to consider putting in slate, stone, or maybe stamped
concrete for the top surface to give it a nicer look.

Hi. *Thanks for replying.

The front step is actually pulled away, revealing the decay.

The base foundation looks good(from what I can see), no crumbling and
the slab cap is in fine condition. *It's really only the individual
cinder blocks. *T. *I've had a couple of contractors out to look at it
and they've both said its simply a matter of replacing the
cinderblocks. *I can't really afford to demolish the whole thing right
now, anyway.

The question is, how many blocks? If it's most of them all the way
around, it would seem to me it's less work to demo the whole thing and
start over. The top slab is of no great value or complexity, it's
just a simple small concrete pour. Plus, if you do it right it will
last a very long time. If you fix/replace say 1/3 of the blocks,
which isn't trivial, you still have what's left and that may not be in
that great shape or last much longer either.






I am planning on putting a slate veneer on it when it's done, although
with Michigan winters, it may not last too long.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Elam" wrote

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch2.jpg

This one worries me but couldnt tell for sure. It looks like damp damage to
under the house there?

The slab itself is ok. With some buddies, I'm pull it out in one piece
(looks like it slides out and lifts off) then just knock out the whole base
and start over. Put some blueboard (I think thats the right name) at the
back where the house crawspace is.

Run a level and make sure there is a slight slope to the slab so it drains
away from the house. when you put it back on. Then, you can add some sort
of prettier looking top layer over it all. I like wood but that may not
suit your climate well.

Grin, BTW, we dont call little things like that 'porches' here in the south.
Thats just a landing. A porch holds a rocking chair or 3 at least.

On Mar 16, 1:12*pm, wrote:
On Mar 16, 12:41*pm, Elam wrote:



On Mar 16, 11:56*am, wrote:

On Mar 16, 11:18*am, Elam wrote:

Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpghttp...rch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks..
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. *Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam

I'd call that a front step, not a porch. *It's impossible to evaluate
the whole thing from the couple of pics. * But from what I see, it
looks so deteriorated that from a practical standpoint you are
probably going to be better off demolishing what is there and starting
over. * You need to find out if there are adequate footers to support
it. *If so, you can get rid of eveything above that and rebuild. *If
not, start with proper footers

You may want to consider putting in slate, stone, or maybe stamped
concrete for the top surface to give it a nicer look.

Hi. *Thanks for replying.

The front step is actually pulled away, revealing the decay.

The base foundation looks good(from what I can see), no crumbling and
the slab cap is in fine condition. *It's really only the individual
cinder blocks. *T. *I've had a couple of contractors out to look at it
and they've both said its simply a matter of replacing the
cinderblocks. *I can't really afford to demolish the whole thing right
now, anyway.

The question is, how many blocks? * If it's most of them all the way
around, it would seem to me it's less work to demo the whole thing and
start over. * The top slab is of no great value or complexity, it's
just a simple small concrete pour. * Plus, if you do it right it will
last a very long time. *If you fix/replace say 1/3 of the blocks,
which isn't trivial, you still have what's left and that may not be in
that great shape or last much longer either.



I am planning on putting a slate veneer on it when it's done, although
with Michigan winters, it may not last too long.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

One reason i don't want to do the whole thing from scratch is the city
ordinance process, which is a pain. But on further inspection today
at lunch, your probably right.

One thing i don't understand is how the porch cap is poured on top of
the cinder blocks? Is that something I can do, or should I use a
professional?

Thanks,
- Elam

"This one worries me but couldnt tell for sure. It looks like damp
damage to
under the house there? "

Do you mean that crack that's showing underneath the door?

Elam wrote:
Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.


I wouldn't fool with rebuilding the steps. You can get ready-made concrete
steps - in almost any size and shape - from lawn dealers and others.

Simply move out the old and set the new product in place.

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 08:18:42 -0700 (PDT), Elam
wrote:

Hi all,

I have a crumbing porch. First, a couple of pictures:

http://param.us/porch/porch1.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch2.jpg

Now, I have zero experience with concrete, hence the question marks.
I'm assuming that I need to chisel/remove the damaged cinder blocks
( pretty much all of them ), one at a time, fit a new one in, and slap
mortar in between the top slab and the porch cap. Or, instead of
mortaring the gap, find a suitable replacement cinder block. Is this
correct? If so, is there a preferred method? ie do I start from
foundation base and work my way around counter/clockwise?

And should what about stability? The mortar is pretty deteriorated
around the entire porch. Is there a way to support the porch(stakes
etc) while I complete repairs?

Any advice is much appreciated.

- Elam


I have to agree witht he other posters about demolition and start
over. There may be a water or freeze/heaving issue that needs to be
addressed or incorporated into the new stoop. Or, consider a small
wooden deck instead of concrete.

"Elam" wrote

"This one worries me but couldnt tell for sure. It looks like damp
damage to
under the house there? "

Do you mean that crack that's showing underneath the door?

No, what looks like grill work below? Definition of the picture isnt enough
to tell what it is really. 3 post looking things at the bottom back.

On Mar 16, 3:39*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"Elam" wrote

"This one worries me but couldnt tell for sure. *It looks like damp
damage to
under the house there? "

Do you mean that crack that's showing underneath the door?

No, what looks like grill work below? *Definition of the picture isnt enough
to tell what it is really. *3 post looking things at the bottom back.

Oh, those are cinder blocks. in fact, the whole base where the porch
meets the ground is cinder blocks, it just looks continuous in one
place and spaced out on the left and right(posts) because of decay and
what looks increasingly likely to be a bad job.

I called the city inspector, and in Dearborn, the porch foundation
extends to 42 inches below the ground, I'm assuming it's 42 inches of
cinder blocks, in varying condition. Also, I could demo the porch and
find out the concrete foundation at the bottom is in poor condition
too and have to rebuild that. But the porch is in such bad shape that
all this is going to have to be done anyway(well, maybe not the
foundation, we'll see)

"Elam" wrote

No, what looks like grill work below? Definition of the picture isnt
enough
to tell what it is really. 3 post looking things at the bottom back.

Oh, those are cinder blocks. in fact, the whole base where the porch
meets the ground is cinder blocks, it just looks continuous in one

Ok, hard to to tell from the picture.

I called the city inspector, and in Dearborn, the porch foundation
extends to 42 inches below the ground, I'm assuming it's 42 inches of
cinder blocks, in varying condition. Also, I could demo the porch and
find out the concrete foundation at the bottom is in poor condition
too and have to rebuild that. But the porch is in such bad shape that
all this is going to have to be done anyway(well, maybe not the
foundation, we'll see)

I understand. The depth is due to the frost level depth of the ground where
you are.

I can envision several solutions, some better looking than others. Some
longer lasting. Here's my best shot.

I take it having it professionally done really 'pretty' is not a financial
option so you need something you can reasonably do yourself at least for
now, with not too much time to spend on it? Later you can have it spiffied
up?

1) Best, take out the whole thing to the ground level then build a box of
wood and cement fill it even and smooth about 6 inches up. Put the current
top slab on this after it's dry. Get either cement steps to place on top of
this, or a metal step to reach the rest of the way.

2) Take it down as above and pour a slab, then build a wood deck above it.
This takes a bit more time but will look nicer. You can solid base most of
it from the looks of the height you need, with PT 'road ties' then put flat
wood panels on top.

3) Least likely to work, but may. Use several bits of wood and such as well
as some car jacks to hold the slab in place, and replace the existing
cinderblocks. This will not be easy and very likely you will crack the top
block. If it can lift off like it looks it might, get some buddies (a 6
pack will do for this in my area for a bribe) to move it to the side. Take
down what has to come down and rebuild. Pay close attention to the center
core area as that's apt to be what was empty to start with (or not properly
filled) that made it go bad over time.

#3 is cheapest but least likely to work. It's advantage is if it doesnt,
you can skip to #2 or #1.

#2 is next cheapest and wont take long if you have the right tools to cut
the wood or can borrow them from a buddy.

#1 will work but may cost more due to purchase of steps, but it's also the
fastest one if you have time constraints.

On Mar 16, 4:41*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"Elam" wrote

No, what looks like grill work below? Definition of the picture isnt
enough
to tell what it is really. 3 post looking things at the bottom back.
Oh, those are cinder blocks. *in fact, the whole base where the porch
meets the ground is cinder blocks, it just looks continuous in one

Ok, hard to to tell from the picture.

I called the city inspector, and in Dearborn, the porch foundation
extends to 42 inches below the ground, I'm assuming it's 42 inches of
cinder blocks, in varying condition. *Also, I could demo the porch and
find out the concrete foundation at the bottom is in poor condition
too and have to rebuild that. *But the porch is in such bad shape that
all this is going to have to be done anyway(well, maybe not the
foundation, we'll see)

I understand. *The depth is due to the frost level depth of the ground where
you are.

I can envision several solutions, some better looking than others. *Some
longer lasting. *Here's my best shot.

I take it having it professionally done really 'pretty' is not a financial
option so you need something you can reasonably do yourself at least for
now, with not too much time to spend on it? *Later you can have it spiffied
up?

1) Best, take out the whole thing to the ground level then build a box of
wood and cement fill it even and smooth about 6 inches up. *Put the current
top slab on this after it's dry. *Get either cement steps to place on top of
this, or a metal step to reach the rest of the way.

2) Take it down as above and pour a slab, then build a wood deck above it..
This takes a bit more time but will look nicer. *You can solid base most of
it from the looks of the height you need, with PT 'road ties' then put flat
wood panels on top.

3) Least likely to work, but may. *Use several bits of wood and such as well
as some car jacks to hold the slab in place, and replace the existing
cinderblocks. *This will not be easy and very likely you will crack the top
block. *If it can lift off like it looks it might, get some buddies (a 6
pack will do for this in my area for a bribe) to move it to the side. *Take
down what has to come down and rebuild. *Pay close attention to the center
core area as that's apt to be what was empty to start with (or not properly
filled) that made it go bad over time.

#3 is cheapest but least likely to work. *It's advantage is if it doesnt,
you can skip to #2 or #1.

#2 is next cheapest and wont take long if you have the right tools to cut
the wood or can borrow them from a buddy.

#1 will work but may cost more due to purchase of steps, but it's also the
fastest one if you have time constraints.

Well, I was able to peer back into the hole between the slab and the
cinder block: http://param.us/porch/porch3.jpg. It turns out the
porch is two cinder blocks deep. One below ground level, one at
ground level, about 4 inches of Quick Crete, and then the slab. The
interior of the porch is simply filled with dirt. It's quite ghetto.
This house was built in 1951 and the porch was probably rebuilt at
least once, but this is the kicker: If I demo it and rebuild, I have
to build it to 2009 code, which means I have to dig 42 x 87 x 48 cubic
inches of dirt, pour foundation slabs for the cinder blocks, build the
wall, fill the interior, then pour the slab. That's way beyond my
expertise and my budget.

#1 isn't really an option as the risk it entails with the city and
their friggin ordinances. If they caught me, I'd have to rebuild it
to 2009 code, and that would cost thousands of dollars. Not sure
about #2. I don't know if I have to lay a slab if I build a wooden
porch. I should call and find out.

Do you really think #3 will damage the slab? Let's say I remove 2 to
3 blocks at a time, repair those, and repeat? When you say it's not
easy, do you mean the effort of placing/removing the cinder blocks?
Or making it look decent? I tend to underestimate, but this doesn't
seem like it would be difficult. Tedious, maybe.

Another picture, just cuz: http://param.us/porch/porch4.jpg

Thanks for your feedback.

Elam wrote in
:

On Mar 16, 4:41*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"Elam" wrote

No, what looks like grill work below? Definition of the picture
isnt enough
to tell what it is really. 3 post looking things at the bottom
back.
Oh, those are cinder blocks. *in fact, the whole base where the
porch meets the ground is cinder blocks, it just looks continuous in
one

Ok, hard to to tell from the picture.

I called the city inspector, and in Dearborn, the porch foundation
extends to 42 inches below the ground, I'm assuming it's 42 inches
of cinder blocks, in varying condition. *Also, I could demo the
porch an
d
find out the concrete foundation at the bottom is in poor condition
too and have to rebuild that. *But the porch is in such bad shape
tha
t
all this is going to have to be done anyway(well, maybe not the
foundation, we'll see)

I understand. *The depth is due to the frost level depth of the
ground
where
you are.

I can envision several solutions, some better looking than others.
*Som
e
longer lasting. *Here's my best shot.

I take it having it professionally done really 'pretty' is not a
financia
l
option so you need something you can reasonably do yourself at least
for now, with not too much time to spend on it? *Later you can have
it spif
fied
up?

1) Best, take out the whole thing to the ground level then build a
box of wood and cement fill it even and smooth about 6 inches up.
*Put the cur
rent
top slab on this after it's dry. *Get either cement steps to place on
t
op of
this, or a metal step to reach the rest of the way.

2) Take it down as above and pour a slab, then build a wood deck
above it
.
This takes a bit more time but will look nicer. *You can solid base
mos
t of
it from the looks of the height you need, with PT 'road ties' then
put fl
at
wood panels on top.

3) Least likely to work, but may. *Use several bits of wood and such
as
well
as some car jacks to hold the slab in place, and replace the existing
cinderblocks. *This will not be easy and very likely you will crack
the
top
block. *If it can lift off like it looks it might, get some buddies
(a
6
pack will do for this in my area for a bribe) to move it to the side.
*
Take
down what has to come down and rebuild. *Pay close attention to the
cen
ter
core area as that's apt to be what was empty to start with (or not
proper
ly
filled) that made it go bad over time.

#3 is cheapest but least likely to work. *It's advantage is if it
doesn
t,
you can skip to #2 or #1.

#2 is next cheapest and wont take long if you have the right tools to
cut the wood or can borrow them from a buddy.

#1 will work but may cost more due to purchase of steps, but it's
also th
e
fastest one if you have time constraints.

Well, I was able to peer back into the hole between the slab and the
cinder block: http://param.us/porch/porch3.jpg. It turns out the
porch is two cinder blocks deep. One below ground level, one at
ground level, about 4 inches of Quick Crete, and then the slab. The
interior of the porch is simply filled with dirt. It's quite ghetto.
This house was built in 1951 and the porch was probably rebuilt at
least once, but this is the kicker: If I demo it and rebuild, I have
to build it to 2009 code, which means I have to dig 42 x 87 x 48 cubic
inches of dirt, pour foundation slabs for the cinder blocks, build the
wall, fill the interior, then pour the slab. That's way beyond my
expertise and my budget.

#1 isn't really an option as the risk it entails with the city and
their friggin ordinances. If they caught me, I'd have to rebuild it
to 2009 code, and that would cost thousands of dollars. Not sure
about #2. I don't know if I have to lay a slab if I build a wooden
porch. I should call and find out.

Do you really think #3 will damage the slab? Let's say I remove 2 to
3 blocks at a time, repair those, and repeat? When you say it's not
easy, do you mean the effort of placing/removing the cinder blocks?
Or making it look decent? I tend to underestimate, but this doesn't
seem like it would be difficult. Tedious, maybe.

Another picture, just cuz: http://param.us/porch/porch4.jpg

Thanks for your feedback.


I'd have to rebuild it
to 2009 code

Park some vehicles blocking view from the street. Do the work. Move the
vehicles.

On Mar 16, 9:50*pm, Elam wrote:
On Mar 16, 4:41*pm, "cshenk" wrote:





"Elam" wrote

No, what looks like grill work below? Definition of the picture isnt
enough
to tell what it is really. 3 post looking things at the bottom back.
Oh, those are cinder blocks. *in fact, the whole base where the porch
meets the ground is cinder blocks, it just looks continuous in one

Ok, hard to to tell from the picture.

I called the city inspector, and in Dearborn, the porch foundation
extends to 42 inches below the ground, I'm assuming it's 42 inches of
cinder blocks, in varying condition. *Also, I could demo the porch and
find out the concrete foundation at the bottom is in poor condition
too and have to rebuild that. *But the porch is in such bad shape that
all this is going to have to be done anyway(well, maybe not the
foundation, we'll see)

I understand. *The depth is due to the frost level depth of the ground where
you are.

I can envision several solutions, some better looking than others. *Some
longer lasting. *Here's my best shot.

I take it having it professionally done really 'pretty' is not a financial
option so you need something you can reasonably do yourself at least for
now, with not too much time to spend on it? *Later you can have it spiffied
up?

1) Best, take out the whole thing to the ground level then build a box of
wood and cement fill it even and smooth about 6 inches up. *Put the current
top slab on this after it's dry. *Get either cement steps to place on top of
this, or a metal step to reach the rest of the way.

2) Take it down as above and pour a slab, then build a wood deck above it.
This takes a bit more time but will look nicer. *You can solid base most of
it from the looks of the height you need, with PT 'road ties' then put flat
wood panels on top.

3) Least likely to work, but may. *Use several bits of wood and such as well
as some car jacks to hold the slab in place, and replace the existing
cinderblocks. *This will not be easy and very likely you will crack the top
block. *If it can lift off like it looks it might, get some buddies (a 6
pack will do for this in my area for a bribe) to move it to the side. *Take
down what has to come down and rebuild. *Pay close attention to the center
core area as that's apt to be what was empty to start with (or not properly
filled) that made it go bad over time.

#3 is cheapest but least likely to work. *It's advantage is if it doesnt,
you can skip to #2 or #1.

#2 is next cheapest and wont take long if you have the right tools to cut
the wood or can borrow them from a buddy.

#1 will work but may cost more due to purchase of steps, but it's also the
fastest one if you have time constraints.

Well, I was able to peer back into the hole between the slab and the
cinder block:http://param.us/porch/porch3.jpg. *It turns out the
porch is two cinder blocks deep. *One below ground level, one at
ground level, about 4 inches of Quick Crete, and then the slab. *The
interior of the porch is simply filled with dirt. *It's quite ghetto.
This house was built in 1951 and the porch was probably rebuilt at
least once, but this is the kicker: *If I demo it and rebuild, I have
to build it to 2009 code, which means I have to dig 42 x 87 x 48 cubic
inches of dirt, pour foundation slabs for the cinder blocks, build the
wall, fill the interior, then pour the slab. *That's way beyond my
expertise and my budget.

You don't have to dig anywhere near that much. You just need 48"
footers around the perimeter. There is no need to remove the earth in
the middle.



#1 isn't really an option as the risk it entails with the city and
their friggin ordinances. *If they caught me, I'd have to rebuild it
to 2009 code, and that would cost thousands of dollars. *

I'd get some estimates. There is nothing here that is all that
expensive. It's mostly labor, some blocks and and a small amount of
concrete.


Not sure
about #2. *I don't know if I have to lay a slab if I build a wooden
porch. *I should call and find out.

I've never seen a reqt for a slab to build a wooden landing or deck.
Generally, they are supported on footers and bolted to the house.
You'd use those cyliderical cardboard tubes 48" deep to pour the
footers where you need them. But, I don;t see this as being less
expensive than rebuilding with concrete. This kind of project may be
about the same either way.



Do you really think #3 will damage the slab?

It looks like it's solid. So, you probably can support it or with
enough guys, move it out of there which would be better. That's
assuming it wasn't poured into anything connected to the house on the
far side or underneath.


*Let's say I remove 2 to
3 blocks at a time, repair those, *and repeat? *When you say it's not
easy, do you mean the effort of placing/removing the cinder blocks?
Or making it look decent? *I tend to underestimate, but this doesn't
seem like it would be difficult. *Tedious, maybe.

To do that all the way around with the landing slab removed isn't that
hard. With the slab in place it's harder because you don't have free
access. The only problem is code doesn't call for footers just for
the hell of it. They are there so it doesn't heave when it freezes,
go lopsided, crack apart again, etc.

So, you have to evaluate how much work you want to put into doing
something half-assed again. I also don't know what the whole thing
looks like, ie front step? how does that get integrated? , how it
fits in with the rest of the house, etc. If it fits in with the rest
of the condition of the house, the neighborhood has similar front
landings, etc, then it's different then if nearby homes have nice
landings, etc. You also should consider when you plan to sell the
house and what will happen. For example, if you want to sell it next
year and do a half-ass repair, then an inspector for the buyer may
quickly spot it and flag it. Meaning you'll have to address it again.







Another picture, just cuz: *http://param.us/porch/porch4.jpg

Thanks for your feedback.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Elam" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

I called the city inspector, and in Dearborn, the porch foundation
extends to 42 inches below the ground, I'm assuming it's 42 inches of
cinder blocks, in varying condition. Also, I could demo the porch and

Sad smile, I see later this is the specs, not what you actually have.
Bummer.

1) Best, take out the whole thing to the ground level then build a box of
wood and cement fill it even and smooth about 6 inches up. Put the current
top slab on this after it's dry. Get either cement steps to place on top
of
this, or a metal step to reach the rest of the way.

2) Take it down as above and pour a slab, then build a wood deck above it.
This takes a bit more time but will look nicer. You can solid base most of
it from the looks of the height you need, with PT 'road ties' then put
flat
wood panels on top.

3) Least likely to work, but may. Use several bits of wood and such as
well
as some car jacks to hold the slab in place, and replace the existing
cinderblocks. This will not be easy and very likely you will crack the top
block. If it can lift off like it looks it might, get some buddies (a 6
pack will do for this in my area for a bribe) to move it to the side. Take
down what has to come down and rebuild. Pay close attention to the center
core area as that's apt to be what was empty to start with (or not
properly
filled) that made it go bad over time.

#3 is cheapest but least likely to work. It's advantage is if it doesnt,
you can skip to #2 or #1.

#2 is next cheapest and wont take long if you have the right tools to cut
the wood or can borrow them from a buddy.

#1 will work but may cost more due to purchase of steps, but it's also the
fastest one if you have time constraints.

Well, I was able to peer back into the hole between the slab and the
cinder block: http://param.us/porch/porch3.jpg. It turns out the
porch is two cinder blocks deep. One below ground level, one at
ground level, about 4 inches of Quick Crete, and then the slab. The
interior of the porch is simply filled with dirt. It's quite ghetto.

Thats what I was afraid of. Basically no real center core. That's likely
why it fell apart too.

This house was built in 1951 and the porch was probably rebuilt at
least once, but this is the kicker: If I demo it and rebuild, I have
to build it to 2009 code, which means I have to dig 42 x 87 x 48 cubic
inches of dirt, pour foundation slabs for the cinder blocks, build the
wall, fill the interior, then pour the slab. That's way beyond my
expertise and my budget.

Check again? There is often a difference in a 'repair of existing
grandfathered code' and a new build. A *contractor* probably would have no
choice but the new code. DIY may allow for you to build to the old code.

#1 isn't really an option as the risk it entails with the city and
their friggin ordinances. If they caught me, I'd have to rebuild it
to 2009 code, and that would cost thousands of dollars. Not sure
about #2. I don't know if I have to lay a slab if I build a wooden
porch. I should call and find out.

That would be a worthwhile call. Local code may not even require any slab
under a wood porch. Might be able to just even up the base, set the
existing top slab down on the ground, then build wood above. I *think* in
that case you leave the new porch 'free floating' from the house so as it
shifts a bit with freeze/thaw of ground in your area (reason for that 42
inch depth there) it wont damage your siding.

Do you really think #3 will damage the slab? Let's say I remove 2 to
3 blocks at a time, repair those, and repeat? When you say it's not
easy, do you mean the effort of placing/removing the cinder blocks?
Or making it look decent? I tend to underestimate, but this doesn't
seem like it would be difficult. Tedious, maybe.

It will be very hard to do without some decently hefty help. That top slab
looks to weigh several hundred pounds right? It looks like the easiest way
will be to lift it off to the side, fill the core properly with gravel and
sand, replace whatever cinderblocks need to be (cement fill the center
holes), then level it and put the top back on.

Got anyone to help you? If not, it will be hard to do alone. Car jacks
will be very handy even if you have help.

I once had to work on a porch a bit like that one (I do lots of charity work
on weekends and habitat for humanity etc). I think the upper slab piece was
a bit smaller and it took 4 guys to lift it away and put it to the side.

We also had to dig a deeper base and repour the bottom slab which was
cracked beyond use. (in fact we pulverized it and used most for the center
core later). The guys used a jackhammer to soften the dirt and I shoveled
it out til we hit about 12 inches (all code required in this area) then wood
framed and poured the base with quikcrete. Came back next weekend to finish
and the rest was easy. Just new blocks, mortor, fill core, once settled,
put cap stone back on.

Another picture, just cuz: http://param.us/porch/porch4.jpg

Thanks! That one really clarified the situation.

My best take now with better understanding, is *try* what you are thinking
of and see if you can get 3 buddies willing to help you. It will be *much*
easier if you can lift the top slab off. If not, jack it with car jacks so
you can raise it *carefully* just enough to get the bad blocks out and slide
new ones in. While it is in place and jacked, the stress points on the top
slab will be high and this is where it may crack. Using 4 or more jacks in
tandem will provide better support and lessen the chance of that.

Oh, I am sure you can find a few neighbors willing to loan their jar jacks
so you have enough (grin).

Now, lets take worst case. You do not have any one to help and it cracks.
All is not lost. Pull the upper slab out in pieces and if you can break it
up, do so and use as core filling. Replace cinders as needed then in the
center, fill with the broken slab. Get it all nice and even. Fill in with
quickcrete then when it dries, use some nice outdoor decking wood to make a
top laid right on there. Keep the boards together by front to back runners
at the sides. You will then have an easy base to even nail some side
enclosure railing wich in ice and snow will be rather good to have. Use the
existing pulled away solid cement step, just where it used to be. When you
have time, paint it all in something that will look nicely contrasting to
your house. (Dark brown seems right from what I can see).

Possible?

Possible?

Well, I'm going to try replacing the individual blocks. Removing the
slab isn't really an option for me at this point.

Total space is from the ground level cinder block to the slab is 12
inches, so that's plenty of room to pull out/repair a standard 8x8x16
cinder block. I'm going to put cinder bricks in the remaing 4 inch
gap, although I'll have to squeeze the mortar on the top of the brick
and the slab somehow. When/if it's done, I'm going to cover it with
stucco or something decorative.

My stepfather has done quite a bit of this kind of work and he wasn't
too worried about the slab cracking as long as I don't remove too many
blocks at one time. We'll see. I'll post some pics of my progress.

"Elam" wrote

My stepfather has done quite a bit of this kind of work and he wasn't
too worried about the slab cracking as long as I don't remove too many
blocks at one time. We'll see. I'll post some pics of my progress.

Ok! I'll be hoping all is well and interested in the progress!

On Mar 19, 3:39*pm, "cshenk" wrote:
"Elam" wrote

My stepfather has done quite a bit of this kind of work and he wasn't
too worried about the slab cracking as long as I don't remove too many
blocks at one time. *We'll see. *I'll post some pics of my progress..

Ok! *I'll be hoping all is well and interested in the progress!

I yanked my bushes up today, and you can see the full extent of the
decay.

The right front corner isn't even resting on anything. I'm surprised
it hasn't cracked already. I think I can do the whole job tomorrow.
We'll see.

http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_one.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_two.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_three.jpg

"Elam" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

I yanked my bushes up today, and you can see the full extent of the
decay.

The right front corner isn't even resting on anything. I'm surprised
it hasn't cracked already. I think I can do the whole job tomorrow.
We'll see.

http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_one.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_two.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_three.jpg

LOL! Looks like the hardest part was getting the bushes out! I hadnt
realized you had that much around it.

Ideas for later after you do the base structure. It looks like a simple
bricked siding applied around it would be a good addition come next year if
you feel like it.

cshenk wrote:
"Elam" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

I yanked my bushes up today, and you can see the full extent of the
decay.

The right front corner isn't even resting on anything. I'm surprised
it hasn't cracked already. I think I can do the whole job tomorrow.
We'll see.

http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_one.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_two.jpg
http://param.us/porch/porch_no_bushes_three.jpg

LOL! Looks like the hardest part was getting the bushes out! I hadnt
realized you had that much around it.

Ideas for later after you do the base structure. It looks like a simple
bricked siding applied around it would be a good addition come next year if
you feel like it.



Are the houses up and down the street twins to yours, under the various
flavors of siding? Like maybe an early 1950s subdivision? Judging from
how the front walk dives under that precast step, I think this whole
thing is probably an old DIY covering the original front steps. Walk up
and down the street, and I'll bet you see at least one house with just
steps. I'd almost bet they just set the block perimeter in dirt (or on
an original grade-level slab), filled up the middle with more dirt, and
then formed and poured the slab on top. Water got under all this and
froze, hence the blocks popping apart.

I wouldn't invest a lot of time or money in it. At some point, the slab
is going to get wobbly, or frost-heave to the point that it ponds
against house creating ice and basement leaks. (Have you looked in
basement directly under front door for signs of leaks? That J-channel
siding is resting on doesn't look real water-resistant.) At that point,
you will have to demo and start over anyway. Shim it as best you can,
skim coat with cement, and hope for the best. Or you could demo now, and
replace with a wood front porch built with stuff from the deck aisle at
the borg- several like that in this neighborhood. I don't think they
even require a permit, since they are sitting on blocks on the ground,
thereby being 'temporary structures'.

Me, I'd tear it out completely and do it over- some things I don't wanna
mess with twice.

--
aem sends...

"LOL! Looks like the hardest part was getting the bushes out! I
hadnt
realized you had that much around it.
Ideas for later after you do the base structure. It looks like a
simple
bricked siding applied around it would be a good addition come next
year if
you feel like it. "

Yeah, the bushes were a hassle. I did two of em manually and it took
me two hours. Then my buddy came over with a chain and his Trailblazer
and yanked the rest of them out in half an hour, although one caused
his 4x4 to spin on my grass for a bit, so I have a semi-hillbilly
front yard at the moment. I want to put a veneer of some kind on it
when its done. Either stone or slate, although slate would probably
bee too slippery in the winter. I'm also planning on a retaining wall
that's inline with the porch, so I'll have a bit more lawn.

"Aemeijers" wrote,

Heh, you got it. House was built in 1951. Although it's the odd one
out on the block, a one level ranch. All these houses have basements,
mine does not, just a crawl space. The last two months, I've checked
out every porch in the negihhborhood. Most are built like mine,quite
a few are built like mine, but a lot are not. But again, my
experience and eye are pretty limited.

I'm not real worried about having to do the porch twice. When I can
afford it and have more experience, I'll do it right

"Most are built like mine,quite
a few are built like mine, but a lot are not. "

Eh, should have been "quite a few are built like mine, but a lot are
not. "

"cshenk" wrote
"Elam" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:

The right front corner isn't even resting on anything. I'm surprised
it hasn't cracked already. I think I can do the whole job tomorrow.
We'll see.

Just curious but have you been able to work on it since yet? I know here,
it's been rainy last 2 weekends so would have caused a delay if I had that
project going on.

On Mar 30, 9:59*am, "cshenk" wrote:
"cshenk" wrote

"Elam" wrote
"cshenk" wrote:
The right front corner isn't even resting on anything. *I'm surprised
it hasn't cracked already. *I think I can do the whole job tomorrow.
We'll see.

Just curious but have you been able to work on it since yet? *I know here,
it's been rainy last 2 weekends so would have caused a delay if I had that
project going on.

Howdy!

It ended up taking me about two weeks, with the bulk of the work done
on a Saturday, and then a brick a day during the week. I made a lot
of mistakes but learned a lot as well.

http://param.us/porch/104.jpg
http://param.us/porch/105.jpg
http://param.us/porch/106.jpg

I started on the front outside corners first, then the sides(sans the
bricks against the foundation), and then the front. I used this
mortar at first, http://www.ctscement.com/MortarMix_FAQ.asp . Not
knowing anything about mortar I just picked it up, at $17.00/50lbs.
It dries *really* fast and is rock hard. I ran out of that stuff and
ended up buying some Quickcrete Type S mortar, which is way cheaper
and takes a lot longer to dry. I don't know if this is a bad
practice, mixing mortar brands, but hey.

One thing that bugged me was packing in the 4 inches of mortar between
the slab and brick. It tended to bulge out, via gravity I suppose,
when left alone to dry. I'd come back every 15 minutes and smooth it
out again, but I couldn't stop it altogether. So where the mortar
meets the brick is not a smooth transition. I've been going out and
shaving it down with a flat chisel and that kind of works, but I'm
going to cover it all up anyway.

Speaking of which, I spent a couple of hours at Lowes and Home Depot
yesterday looking at tile. Any suggestions in this regard would be
appreciated. Everyone is telling me not to use slate on the surface
of the porch due to the cold weather and ice, but I've found some
pretty rough slate, so I don't know. I certainly don't want the
mailman to slip and fall.

Go Michigan State!

- Elam

"Elam" wrote:
"cshenk" wrote

Just curious but have you been able to work on it since yet? I know here,

Howdy!

Hi back!

It ended up taking me about two weeks, with the bulk of the work done
on a Saturday, and then a brick a day during the week. I made a lot
of mistakes but learned a lot as well.

http://param.us/porch/104.jpg
http://param.us/porch/105.jpg
http://param.us/porch/106.jpg

It looks nicely done there!

I started on the front outside corners first, then the sides(sans the
bricks against the foundation), and then the front. I used this
mortar at first, http://www.ctscement.com/MortarMix_FAQ.asp . Not
knowing anything about mortar I just picked it up, at $17.00/50lbs.
It dries *really* fast and is rock hard. I ran out of that stuff and
ended up buying some Quickcrete Type S mortar, which is way cheaper
and takes a lot longer to dry. I don't know if this is a bad
practice, mixing mortar brands, but hey.

I've never mixed types but can't see as it's any real harm. The quicker
setting one doesnt 'bulge' much which is it's charm but you have to work
fast with it.

One thing that bugged me was packing in the 4 inches of mortar between
the slab and brick. It tended to bulge out, via gravity I suppose,
when left alone to dry. I'd come back every 15 minutes and smooth it
out again, but I couldn't stop it altogether. So where the mortar
meets the brick is not a smooth transition. I've been going out and
shaving it down with a flat chisel and that kind of works, but I'm
going to cover it all up anyway.

I'm looking at it and thinking of several ideas, various expenses involved.

Speaking of which, I spent a couple of hours at Lowes and Home Depot
yesterday looking at tile. Any suggestions in this regard would be
appreciated. Everyone is telling me not to use slate on the surface
of the porch due to the cold weather and ice, but I've found some
pretty rough slate, so I don't know. I certainly don't want the
mailman to slip and fall.

The surface of the upper slab looks to be almost 'pebble' sort? If so, it's
a decent one to keep there. Now, if the color doesnt appeal to you but you
do not mind repainting pretty much each spring, paint can do a lot there to
bring it to a mix with the rest of your evidently sand-toned house. I
estimate you can paint it in less than 2 hours including cleanup with a big
nap roller. Next year, add 20 mins more time with a 'greenie weenie' 3M pad
to remove any obvious bubbling and repaint same color. Probably only the
cinderblock will bubble a bit and it won't be much.

I like contrasting colors so would go with either dark brown or a darker
blue. Since i can't see the rest of the house, I dont know if any of your
other trim is on any color other than sand-tone. If there is another color,
replicate it as close as you can to the paint for the porch stump. It will
look nice and make it a feature instead of just a needed step.

If your house is all sand toned, adding a darker base of still sand-tone in
the porch will look nice.

A more expensive but nice looking bit, is to put paving tiles up on the
sides. I'm not quite sure the mechanics of that for your icy area. Here,
we use that fast set mortar and a block of wood to hold it up til it dries
solid. Dunno if that will work in your freeze-thaw as you are obviously
well north of me. Heck, we are cropping tomatoes already here in our back
yards!

As for slipping and falling, what you really need is rails on both sides.
The easiest way to do that with your construction, is to build a tight
fitting wood frame around the existing structure and make rails on that.

Darn, I know in my mind exactly how to do it, but not how to describe it.
I'll try though. This all goes on flat 2 inch or so thick cinderblocks so
settlings isnt a problem.

Take a 4x4 and cut 2 lenghts, each 4 inches longer than the sides of the
porch. Now cut 2 more of same size and lay them 4 inches away so you can
fit a 4x4 inbetween. Cut another 4x4 to fit flush to the front of the porch
and between the 2 parts that stick out. Use angled 'L' metal (galvanized)
joints to hold these in place.

Cut 2x4 or 4x4 posts which will fit in the back near the house, and at front
just where the porch ends. Stand these up in place and add more 'L' joints
or heavy nails. How tall you make these, depends on if you want to make a
little rain shelter roof, or just rails. If rails, make the stand up parts
all the same tallness. Then, cut a runner piece for the rails and nail it
on top. I think with your dimensions, you just need the 4 riser pieces. A
larger porch would need more.

Now, if you want to make a roof, cut the back risers to 1.5 inch below where
your roof ends. You will tuck the new portico roof under this. Cut the
front set away from the house, about 3 inches lower. You will need to angle
these cut so you can lay a piece of heavy plywood to lay flat along it yet
slope. Since I dont have the exact inches of your porch, I can't say what
that is but 30degrees looks about right with a 3 inch drop on the second
front set? The easy way is to angle cut the back set, then a piece of
plywood just a little bigger than the porch (you want some overhang) and
hold it up there then mark with a crayon/pencil where it hits the front wood
so you can cut it there. Nail the plywood to the top posts. Nail matching
tile to your roof to this with tarpaper under it. Seal the outer edges of
the plywood with acrylic caulk to help weatherize it.

If you go the portico roof, you then will 'sister' more 4x4 to the 4 posts
up to the level where you want the rail, then use that to hold the rails up.

You will now have a small section of freespace between the 2 layers of 4x4's
at the bottom. Only some is used up to hold the posts. For the part where
the stone step needs to go, cut more 4x4 til it hits flush with the steps
(may need a smaller piece, thats ok). This should be same size as the
steps and just layered up. It's only so they fit back where they need to
be.

In the gaps, there are a bunch of ways to use that. For long lasting wood,
I suggest not just filling with dirt and putting plants in there. I suggest
instead small 4 inch or so wide plastic longish planters with the holes
sealed at the bottom. Pansies, mint, even morning glory seeds which will
grow over the porch a bit. With the plastic ones, you can lift them out and
shift contents as often as you want to.

Ok, long winded but hope you have the idea.

About ready to take on this exact project. Wondering if you could go into detail on how you removed and replaced your cinder blocks.