I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 15:21:37 -0500, Bert Byfield
wrote:

I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?



Maybe. When I need to feed two appliances, I use 3/4", otherwise it
is 1/2".

Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?





It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant faucet
before Hot water arrives. That may be trivial or it may be a
real pain in the neck.

On Mar 15, 3:14*pm, Speedy Jim wrote:
Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?

It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant faucet
before Hot water arrives. *That may be trivial or it may be a
real pain in the neck.

OP-
Speedy Jim is on the right track about 3/4" vs 1/2" (both nominal
size copper tube) but unless my calcs are wrong...the 3/4" tube will
have closer to twice as much cold water volume to clear. This will
double your hot water wait time.

Why does the copper need replacing? acidic water? leaks?

I dont see why varying pipe size would otherwise cause problems.

cheers
Bob

I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some
of it needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe
but I'm wondering if that will cause problems with the water
changing pipe sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?

It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant faucet
before Hot water arrives. *That may be trivial or it may be a
real pain in the neck.

OP-
Speedy Jim is on the right track about 3/4" vs 1/2" (both nominal
size copper tube) but unless my calcs are wrong...the 3/4" tube
will have closer to twice as much cold water volume to clear.
This will double your hot water wait time.

Why does the copper need replacing? acidic water? leaks?

There is white crud coming out of some of the copper joints. What is
that? I expected green corosion instead. Should I replace all those
joints?

But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been touching
the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or so, and the
contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons a day. I'm
looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp" between the pipe
and the conduit, before I think about replacing sections of pipe.

I dont see why varying pipe size would otherwise cause problems.
cheers Bob

Thanks both of you. I'll have to look at how long the hot water runs
are.

"Van Chocstraw" wrote in message
...
Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm wondering
if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe sizes on its way
to an outlet. Can I do this?




How do you know it 'needs' replacement? Looks tarnished?

--
//--------------------\\
Van Chocstraw
\\--------------------//

I used to replace mine every two years because of tarnish. Now I have a
cleaning service come in twice a year to polish it. save money in the long
run.

In article , Speedy Jim wrote:

3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2"

No, it has approximately 125% more area. The exact difference depends on
whether you're talking about type K, L, or M pipe.

One of the women at my church complains there is "never any
hot water". I timed it one night, something like 4 1/2
minutes for the hot water to arrive. I'm wondering if they
used 3/4 copper. I think they have water saver aerators,
which I ought to drill out.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
...

It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot
side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant
faucet
before Hot water arrives. That may be trivial or it may be
a
real pain in the neck.

Sounds like a good idea, to replace the white edged joints.
Use solder made for drinking water.

As to the pinhole. If it's what I think the patch thing
(rubber and a clamp) will also separate the pipe from the
girder, so it doesn't continue to wear.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bert Byfield" wrote in message
. 97.131...

There is white crud coming out of some of the copper joints.
What is
that? I expected green corosion instead. Should I replace
all those
joints?

But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been
touching
the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or so,
and the
contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons a day.
I'm
looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp" between
the pipe
and the conduit, before I think about replacing sections of
pipe.

Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?





It's not a bad idea to take 3/4 to the last "T" in the system , then
take the last two branchs on in 1/2" . BUT do keep in mind, that on
the hot side, you'll be slowing down the hot getting to the fixture.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
One of the women at my church complains there is "never any
hot water". I timed it one night, something like 4 1/2
minutes for the hot water to arrive. I'm wondering if they
used 3/4 copper. I think they have water saver aerators,
which I ought to drill out.


Christopher, you may want to check into putting one of these in at the
farthest away point.

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

steve

"Bert Byfield" wrote in message
. 97.131...

There is white crud coming out of some of the copper joints.
What is
that? I expected green corosion instead. Should I replace
all those
joints?

But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been
touching
the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or so,
and the
contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons a day.
I'm
looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp" between
the pipe
and the conduit, before I think about replacing sections of
pipe.

The white crud may just be surface corrosion. Clean it off, put a coating
like petroleum jelly on it and see if it comes right back. Or it may be
minerals from the water if in fact there is a tiny leak. If a leak, it will
start in one spot and spread, If corrosion, it usually goes around the
exposed solder.

As for the pin hole, fix it properly by cutting out a section and sweating
in a new one. Then be sure it does not contact the hanger again. Any sort
of rubber will do the job.

wrote:
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:14:08 -0500, Speedy Jim
wrote:

Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of
it needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?





It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant faucet
before Hot water arrives. That may be trivial or it may be a
real pain in the neck.

That's why they sell foam pipe insulation !!!!!!

It would take a lot more than standard pipe insulation to prevent "the wait for
hot water" problem you are responding to.

On Mar 16, 11:28*am, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:14:08 -0500, Speedy Jim



wrote:
Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?

It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant faucet
before Hot water arrives. *That may be trivial or it may be a
real pain in the neck.

That's why they sell foam pipe insulation !!!!!!

Foam pipe insulation will only cut the hot water wait time by an
insignificant fraction of the current wait time.

Wait time is driven by hot water flow rate to the fixture and volume
of cold water sitting in the hot water piping to the fixture. Volume
of cold water in the hot water piping to the fixture is determined by
run length & pipe size.

Typical hot water pipe insulation will reduce heat loss while the
water is being delivered but it wont keep it hot forever (overnight)

cheers
Bob

On Mar 16, 6:58*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Bert Byfield" wrote in message
.97.131...

There is white crud coming out of some of the copper joints.
What is
that? I expected green corrosion instead. Should I replace
all those
joints?

But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been
touching
the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or so,
and the
contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons a day.
I'm
looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp" between
the pipe
and the conduit, before I think about replacing sections of
pipe.

The white crud may just be surface corrosion. Clean it off, put a coating
like petroleum jelly on it and see if it comes right back. *Or it may be
minerals from the water if in fact there is a tiny leak. If a leak, it will
start in one spot and spread, *If corrosion, it usually goes around the
exposed solder.

As for the pin hole, fix it properly by cutting out a section and sweating
in a new one. *Then be sure it does not contact the hanger again. Any sort
of rubber will do the job.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Respectfully suggest that the reason for the pipe leak at the point of
abrasion with the conduit is and could be due to two factors.
(Possibly three!).
1) There is slight movement between the two. Possibly aggravated by
copper pipe expansion/contraction with temp of water, also vibration?
2) The conduit and pipe are two different metals. With the least of
moisture and/or condensation over a long period of time, a small point
of electrolytic corrosion between the two metals may have occurred?
3) There is remote possibility of very, very small voltages on the
grounded? conduit, which possibly could also lead to electrolytic
corrosion. In our house the water and electrical grounds and the
incoming conduit are not close together; however we have bonded the
cold water pipe to the main ground with a #2 AWG wire and marked it
with green tape. It is also bonded to another ground which happens to
be a loop of #6 AWG buried in the ground long ago when the house was
being built.Separate the pipe and the conduit. But suggest that id f
this only problem after 50 years do not start wholesale replacement of
half inch copper pipe. However if you ARE doing some renovations; e.g
bathroom then install new copper in that area only as you do the
renovation.
We have all half inch water plumbing, installed by myself nearly 40
years ago. Fairly acidic water, but no leaks.And when we renovated
bathroom some years ago did replace inaccessible copper, for that area
only, at that time. We initially used a well/septic system. But have
had municipal water for some 30 years; no problems with either.
If you do any replacements recommend use 'ball valves' and section
each part of the house system. They are more reliable since do not use
washers and turn on/off with a quarter turn!

Bert Byfield wrote:
....
But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been touching
the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or so, and the
contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons a day. I'm
looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp" between the pipe
and the conduit, before I think about replacing sections of pipe.

All you need is a slip over coupling (one w/o the ridge in the middle)
expressly for the purpose.

Cut the pipe at the location of the pinhole, clean the ends (remember to
also ream the inside of the cut to get rid of burs), then slip the
fitting over, flux and solder. Done.

Then, as somebody else noted, fix the contact point so the two don't
touch in some fashion and it'll probably outlast you.

I'd not worry about the rest until actually had a demonstrable problem.
Like the above, unless you have something very corrosive in the water
or other problems, likely it will no longer be your problem when it
actually requires replacement.

--

Bert Byfield wrote:
But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been
touching the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or
so, and the contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons
a day. I'm looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp"
between the pipe and the conduit, before I think about replacing
sections of pipe.

All you need is a slip over coupling (one w/o the ridge in the
middle) expressly for the purpose.
Cut the pipe at the location of the pinhole, clean the ends
(remember to also ream the inside of the cut to get rid of burs),
then slip the fitting over, flux and solder. Done.
Then, as somebody else noted, fix the contact point so the two
don't touch in some fashion and it'll probably outlast you.

I had never before understood why some of the couplings had ridges and
some did not. But also this pipe is only half an inch from the ceiling
so I can't get a regular pipe cutter to roll around it, and would have
to use that saw like a hacksaw blade with a handle at only one end.
I've had trouble doing this before, because the soft copper bends a bit
and is then hard to fit to the coupling. Is there a better way to cut
this pipe, or do I just have to go slowly and ream out the result?

On Mar 16, 7:55*pm, dpb wrote:
Bert Byfield wrote:

...

But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been touching
the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or so, and the
contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons a day. I'm
looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp" between the pipe
and the conduit, before I think about replacing sections of pipe.

All you need is a slip over coupling (one w/o the ridge in the middle)
expressly for the purpose.

Cut the pipe at the location of the pinhole, clean the ends (remember to
also ream the inside of the cut to get rid of burs), then slip the
fitting over, flux and solder. * Done.

Then, as somebody else noted, fix the contact point so the two don't
touch in some fashion and it'll probably outlast you.

I'd not worry about the rest until actually had a demonstrable problem.
* Like the above, unless you have something very corrosive in the water
or other problems, likely it will no longer be your problem when it
actually requires replacement.

--

Most of the couplings I see just have a little dimple that keeps the
pipe from sliding through. Needing a repair coupling I have just
hammered the little dimple out. This usually saves me a trip and I
dont have some salesperson asking me what the heck am I talking about.

Jimmie

You might have to call the public services department in
your town, and get 3/4 inch water instead.

More seriously, it will make little difference, except....
if there is a long run of pipe, or lots of elbows and shut
offs, the 3/4 has lower resistance to flow. And it will take
longer for the hot water to arrive.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bert Byfield" wrote in message
. 97.131...
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and
some of it
needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but
I'm
wondering if that will cause problems with the water
changing pipe
sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?

Now, that looks like a useful gadget. I doubt I could "sell"
it to the powers that be. But, it looks useful.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve Barker" wrote in
message
...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
One of the women at my church complains there is "never
any
hot water". I timed it one night, something like 4 1/2
minutes for the hot water to arrive. I'm wondering if they
used 3/4 copper. I think they have water saver aerators,
which I ought to drill out.


Christopher, you may want to check into putting one of these
in at the
farthest away point.

http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

steve

Something I've done with more or less success. Cut the
coupling length wise (think hot dog bun) with a pair of tin
shears. Pry it open (think clam on the beach opening its
mouth). Sand and flux the pipe, where it's leaking. Turn off
the water, of course. Drain the pipe if possible. Sand the
inside of the fitting. Squeeze the fitting around the pipe.
Might need pliers. More flux. Heat the fitting, and be
generous with the solder. If you're lucky, you just soldered
copper over the pinhole, and you won't have a leak for the
next umpteen years.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bert Byfield" wrote in message
. 97.131...
Bert Byfield wrote:
But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has
been
touching the conduit for the main house power for fifty
years or
so, and the contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6
gallons
a day. I'm looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair
clamp"
between the pipe and the conduit, before I think about
replacing
sections of pipe.

All you need is a slip over coupling (one w/o the ridge in
the
middle) expressly for the purpose.
Cut the pipe at the location of the pinhole, clean the
ends
(remember to also ream the inside of the cut to get rid of
burs),
then slip the fitting over, flux and solder. Done.
Then, as somebody else noted, fix the contact point so the
two
don't touch in some fashion and it'll probably outlast
you.

I had never before understood why some of the couplings had
ridges and
some did not. But also this pipe is only half an inch from
the ceiling
so I can't get a regular pipe cutter to roll around it, and
would have
to use that saw like a hacksaw blade with a handle at only
one end.
I've had trouble doing this before, because the soft copper
bends a bit
and is then hard to fit to the coupling. Is there a better
way to cut
this pipe, or do I just have to go slowly and ream out the
result?

Bert Byfield wrote:
....
I had never before understood why some of the couplings had ridges and
some did not.

And now you do...

But also this pipe is only half an inch from the ceiling
so I can't get a regular pipe cutter to roll around it, ...

It should be possible to get a miniature tubing cutter around it if it's
1/2". If it's 3/4, they're pricey enough you may not want to spend the
money for a single use. But, generally there's enough flex in copper to
be able to make sufficient clearance unless there's a vertical also too
close.

But, if need to, the hacksaw will work. As you say, be sorta slow and
shouldn't have any problem.

And, of course, if it is just a pinhole, in all likelihood you could
simply clean and flux around it and fill the hole w/ solder and it'll
last indefinitely that way w/o the connector at all.

--

On Mar 16, 6:46*pm, Bert Byfield wrote:
Bert Byfield wrote:
But my primary leak right now is where a water pipe has been
touching the conduit for the main house power for fifty years or
so, and the contact has caused a pinhole leak, of 5 or 6 gallons
a day. I'm looking at inserting a "universal pipe repair clamp"
between the pipe and the conduit, before I think about replacing
sections of pipe.
All you need is a slip over coupling (one w/o the ridge in the
middle) expressly for the purpose.
Cut the pipe at the location of the pinhole, clean the ends
(remember to also ream the inside of the cut to get rid of burs),
then slip the fitting over, flux and solder. * Done.
Then, as somebody else noted, fix the contact point so the two
don't touch in some fashion and it'll probably outlast you.

I had never before understood why some of the couplings had ridges and
some did not. But also this pipe is only half an inch from the ceiling
so I can't get a regular pipe cutter to roll around it, and would have
to use that saw like a hacksaw blade with a handle at only one end.
I've had trouble doing this before, because the soft copper bends a bit
and is then hard to fit to the coupling. Is there a better way to cut
this pipe, or do I just have to go slowly and ream out the result?

Get a close quarters tubing cutter....Ridgid makes a couple different
size ranges.

Up to 15/16 od and up to 1 1/8" both available on line for less
than $20.

but you'll need about an 1 1/2" clearance to get them to work but
most installations have enough play to make the cut.

Otherwise you could make the first cut with a hack saw & then clean
them up with a tube cutter.

You could make up the lost length difference with a new piece of tube
or if its not much just span it with couplings.

cheers
Bob

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:07:29 -0700 (PDT), fftt
wrote:

On Mar 16, 11:28 am, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:14:08 -0500, Speedy Jim



wrote:
Bert Byfield wrote:
I've got a basement full of old half-inch copper pipe, and some
of it needs to be replaced. I want to do repairs in 3/4" pipe but
I'm wondering if that will cause problems with the water changing
pipe sizes on its way to an outlet. Can I do this?

It will cause a problem if there are long runs on the Hot side.
3/4" pipe has roughly 50% more area than 1/2", meaning that
50% more volume of water has to be drawn from a distant faucet
before Hot water arrives. That may be trivial or it may be a
real pain in the neck.

That's why they sell foam pipe insulation !!!!!!

Foam pipe insulation will only cut the hot water wait time by an
insignificant fraction of the current wait time.

Wait time is driven by hot water flow rate to the fixture and volume
of cold water sitting in the hot water piping to the fixture.
Volume of cold water in the hot water piping to the fixture is
determined by run length & pipe size.

Typical hot water pipe insulation will reduce heat loss while the
water is being delivered but it wont keep it hot forever (overnight)

cheers
Bob

Guess it depends on the length of the pipes. I have never lived in a
house with hot water pipes that are much longer than 25 feet or so.
Most builders place the water heater in a central location. Of course
these rediculously large homes they build these days are probably
another story.

The only way insulation could solve the problem is if the pipes are VERY short,
and the water heater has no heat trap at all.