Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Thanks

On Feb 15, 12:07*am, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

It's heat transfer and not irrigation. The water will give up it's
heat wherever it can.

R

Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Thanks

Heat rises?

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:07:09 -0800, Aaron Fude wrote:

Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves on
the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Thanks

Are you asking about whole home heating using a hot water boiler using an
electric circulating pump with piping for 180 degree (F) water and cold
water return?

Are you asking about a whole home heat system that uses a boiler with
steam heat and gravity cold water return to the boiler during "off" cycle
of the steam heat?

Your link looks like it could just be using potable (drinking) hot faucet
water to warm the towels. The hot water for your shower passes through
the towel warmer warming your towels (and cooling your shower water.) It
is just plumbing water in, water out. Complex "S" pattern of piping
makes the device circulate the water (water pressure and flow from city)
in, up, around and back down. The heat transfer baffles just get warm
from your shower water, cooling the water, and then the heat transfer
baffles warm your towel.

Just a guess, the labor cost for running the piping to that linked device
has *GOT* to cost more than those towel warmers by themselves.

(left wing rant....)
If I knew who to send it to, I would submit a nomination of that device
for the most un-"Green" energy waster and anti-energy conservation device
for the year award. If this towel warmer really does use shower hot water
to heat towels, this would be just flaunting your disrespect for energy
conservation and your part in making an effort to reduce greenhouse
gases. May your children grow up to be environmental warriors who
publicly denounce you (after your kids are properly indoctrinated and
rote taught the catechism of environmentalism in the public schools of
course.)

{hee, hee, hee, the flame wars have begun... Anyone up to starting a
popcorn and peanuts concession for the lurkers? I know I shouldn't taunt
'em, but it is so easy to get them anymore. }

"Phil Again" wrote in message
Are you asking about whole home heating using a hot water boiler using an
electric circulating pump with piping for 180 degree (F) water and cold
water return?

I think he is asking about a standar radiator. Both inlet and outlet are on
the bottom but yet they heat evenly across the entire radiator. I've never
disected one so I don't know if there are baffles inside.





(left wing rant....)
If I knew who to send it to, I would submit a nomination of that device
for the most un-"Green" energy waster and anti-energy conservation device
for the year award. If this towel warmer really does use shower hot water
to heat towels, this would be just flaunting your disrespect for energy
conservation and your part in making an effort to reduce greenhouse
gases. May your children grow up to be environmental warriors who
publicly denounce you (after your kids are properly indoctrinated and
rote taught the catechism of environmentalism in the public schools of
course.)

(right wing reply)
Rather than go off on a silly rant, it makes much more sense to find out how
things work and why. In Europe especailly, those towel warmers you see as
wasteful are the only source of heat in the bathrhoom. They are only on
when the house boiler is heated the house. They are very utilitarian and
sensible as they take a necessity and at no additonal cost or energy and
make it into a luxury.

Many years ago when radiators were common, I know of people that would put
ther towels on them, or even the pants they wre going to wear the next
morning. This just limits it to towels, but the same idea. Smart eh?





{hee, hee, hee, the flame wars have begun... Anyone up to starting a
popcorn and peanuts concession for the lurkers? I know I shouldn't taunt
'em, but it is so easy to get them anymore. }


And so silly now that you know the facts.

On Feb 14, 11:07*pm, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Thanks

Id guess hot water and heat rises, the metal quickly conducts, warms
through out from the water, water cools fairly fast, cools mixes and
falls.

On Feb 15, 10:16*am, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Phil Again" wrote in message
Are you asking about whole home heating using a hot water boiler using an
electric circulating pump with piping for 180 degree (F) water and cold
water return?

I think he is asking about a standard radiator. *Both inlet and outlet are on
the bottom but yet they heat evenly across the entire radiator. *I've never
dissected one so I don't know if there are baffles inside.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Judging by this link http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/to...omnipanel.html


There are two types of 'Solea' towel warmers which otherwise are just
like any other radiators?

a) Electric in sizes up to 700 watts.

b) Hot water (hydronic) in sizes up to 7,920 BTU* which would be fed
from a normal house hot water heating system.

(Which normally involves an electrical pump to 'push' the water around
the heating system; including, if fitted one of these towel warmers.
The internal construction of the towel warmer is not shown but
presumably, within the hot water version there is baffling etc. to
direct the water flow evenly through the different sections.

There is as far as one can see; not a steam/condensing version?

So If one were fitting new heating I guess you could use one of these
to heat your bathroom; it is after all a device to radiate warmth and
heat the air surrounding it. For example our small bathroom is heated
by a 500 watt baseboard, with it's own thermostat, and also a row of
six 40 watt bulbs (Total 240 watts) above the vanity mirror. When the
bulbs are on the 500 watt heater rarely cuts in!

Note: * 3920 BTU per hour is roughly equivalent to to a 2000 watt (2
kilowatt) electric radiator or baseboard heater.

There is no reference AFIK in the original post about routing the
shower water through the towel warmer????? Also it does not appear to
be a heat recovery device; e.g. warm shower water out heating colder
water going in????????

What was that all about?

As a personal comment about the Solea product; not sure I'd want all
that 'piping' hanging on the wall! Not from a weight point of view but
just the complexity and appearance/cleaning! We do very well with an
approx 40 inch single bar fastened above the 500 watt baseboard. Dead
simple, easy to clean and maintain!

BTW see my post about "Worth leaving shower/bath water to cool down?"

On Feb 15, 7:16*am, Phil Again wrote:
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:07:09 -0800, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves on
the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Thanks

Are you asking about whole home heating using a hot water boiler using an
electric circulating pump with piping for 180 degree (F) water and cold
water return?

Are you asking about a whole home heat system that uses a boiler with
steam heat and gravity cold water return to the boiler during "off" cycle
of the steam heat?

Your link looks like it could just be using potable (drinking) hot faucet
water to warm the towels. *The hot water for your shower passes through
the towel warmer warming your towels (and cooling your shower water.) *It
is just plumbing water in, water out. *Complex "S" pattern of piping
makes the device circulate the water (water pressure and flow from city)
in, up, around and back down. *The heat transfer baffles just get warm
from your shower water, cooling the water, and then the heat transfer
baffles warm your towel. *

Just a guess, the labor cost for running the piping to that linked device
has *GOT* to cost more than those towel warmers by themselves.

(left wing rant....)
If I knew who to send it to, I would submit a nomination of that device
for the most un-"Green" energy waster and anti-energy conservation device
for the year award. If this towel warmer really does use shower hot water
to heat towels, this would be just flaunting your disrespect for energy
conservation and your part in making an effort to reduce greenhouse
gases. *May your children grow up to be environmental warriors who
publicly denounce you (after your kids are properly indoctrinated and
rote taught the catechism of environmentalism in the public schools of
course.)

{hee, hee, hee, the flame wars have begun... Anyone up to starting a
popcorn and peanuts concession for the lurkers? *I know I shouldn't taunt
'em, but it is so easy to get them anymore. }

No flame wars. I'd just point out that normally you'd only want the
towels heated in the winter. In which case, the heat is not lost, it
goes to heating the house.. And all the ones I've seen that use hot
water, appear to use water in the heating system loop. So, it's more
like having a additonal small radiator or putting your towels on the
existing one, etc.

On Feb 15, 8:54*am, wrote:
On Feb 15, 7:16*am, Phil Again wrote:





On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:07:09 -0800, Aaron Fude wrote:
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves on
the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Thanks

Are you asking about whole home heating using a hot water boiler using an
electric circulating pump with piping for 180 degree (F) water and cold
water return?

Are you asking about a whole home heat system that uses a boiler with
steam heat and gravity cold water return to the boiler during "off" cycle
of the steam heat?

Your link looks like it could just be using potable (drinking) hot faucet
water to warm the towels. *The hot water for your shower passes through
the towel warmer warming your towels (and cooling your shower water.) *It
is just plumbing water in, water out. *Complex "S" pattern of piping
makes the device circulate the water (water pressure and flow from city)
in, up, around and back down. *The heat transfer baffles just get warm
from your shower water, cooling the water, and then the heat transfer
baffles warm your towel. *

Just a guess, the labor cost for running the piping to that linked device
has *GOT* to cost more than those towel warmers by themselves.

(left wing rant....)
If I knew who to send it to, I would submit a nomination of that device
for the most un-"Green" energy waster and anti-energy conservation device
for the year award. If this towel warmer really does use shower hot water
to heat towels, this would be just flaunting your disrespect for energy
conservation and your part in making an effort to reduce greenhouse
gases. *May your children grow up to be environmental warriors who
publicly denounce you (after your kids are properly indoctrinated and
rote taught the catechism of environmentalism in the public schools of
course.)

{hee, hee, hee, the flame wars have begun... Anyone up to starting a
popcorn and peanuts concession for the lurkers? *I know I shouldn't taunt
'em, but it is so easy to get them anymore. }

No flame wars. * I'd just point out that normally you'd only want the
towels heated in the winter. *In which case, the heat is not lost, it
goes to heating the house.. * And all the ones I've seen that use hot
water, appear to use water in the heating system loop. * So, it's more
like having a additonal small radiator or putting your towels on the
existing one, etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Oh and as to how radiators work, I believe the old cast iron water
heaters were connected in sections with openings for water flow at
both top and bottom. Hot water went in at bottom end, out the other,
and relied on convection to move the water around as well as
conduction via the cast iron.

Obviously there could be different flow designs for diff radiators.
The baseboard style just use a pipe with fins. Not sure how the
towel warmer works. It looks like it might just have hot water going
up one side and then back down that same side, then rely on conduction
to warm the bars?

Water heater, and radiator are two totally different things.
Would you please choose one or the other?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water
heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an
old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as
this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom
left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the
top.

Thanks

I'm sure that the radiator completely fills up with hot water. It's
not convection an it's not conduction. It's some kind of flow trick
that I am trying to figure out. So does anyone know?

Aaron

On Feb 15, 11:46*am, Aaron Fude wrote:
I'm sure that the radiator completely fills up with hot water. It's
not convection an it's not conduction. It's some kind of flow trick
that I am trying to figure out. So does anyone know?

Yes, I do know and it has already been explained by me and others.

Why would you assume it's not conduction? There is, of course,
turbulence in the water stream which mixes up the water to some
degree. If it's not conduction at work, then the pot of water you put
on the stove would only get hot on the bottom "layer" of water. You
shouldn't look for tricky explanations when simple ones are the right
ones.

BTW, how do you "trick" heat flow? Please let me know as I am keen on
stopping entropy (the heat death of the universe) in its tracks before
it is too late.

R

Aaron Fude wrote:
I'm sure that the radiator completely fills up with hot water. It's
not convection an it's not conduction. It's some kind of flow trick
that I am trying to figure out. So does anyone know?

Aaron
Hi,
One thing if it is not filled with water 100%(if there is air pocket)
it won't heat at all. Take this as a clue.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:48:56 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Water heater, and radiator are two totally different things.
Would you please choose one or the other?

I think he actually said (and meant) "hot water heater"... not one of
those things that heats water to make it hot, but something that heats
surrounding air using hot water. It's the first time I have seen
someone use "hot water heater" in this NG without it being wrong ;-)

"Aaron Fude" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.



*This might help:
http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/to...olea-hydro.pdf

Brochu
http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/to.../2007Towel.pdf

Instructions:
http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/to...on%20Sheet.pdf

wrote:
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009 09:48:56 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Water heater, and radiator are two totally different things.
Would you please choose one or the other?

I think he actually said (and meant) "hot water heater"... not one of
those things that heats water to make it hot, but something that heats
surrounding air using hot water. It's the first time I have seen
someone use "hot water heater" in this NG without it being wrong ;-)

Had he used "hot-water heater" (compounds in attributive use), we'd have all
known what was what.

On Feb 15, 10:46*am, Aaron Fude wrote:
I'm sure that the radiator completely fills up with hot water. It's
not convection an it's not conduction. It's some kind of flow trick
that I am trying to figure out. So does anyone know?

Aaron

What I have experianced is, upright cast iron radiators only fill
completely with water when you manualy remove air with the bleeder
valve, and have enough water pressure to do so. At least all cast
uprights that I have seen must be manualy bled. They will get warm-hot
with air in them, not fully hot, usualy I can feel where air starts as
its cooler where air is trapped.

On 2/15/2009 8:59 AM RicodJour spake thus:

On Feb 15, 11:46 am, Aaron Fude wrote:

I'm sure that the radiator completely fills up with hot water. It's
not convection an it's not conduction. It's some kind of flow trick
that I am trying to figure out. So does anyone know?

Yes, I do know and it has already been explained by me and others.

Why would you assume it's not conduction? There is, of course,
turbulence in the water stream which mixes up the water to some
degree. If it's not conduction at work, then the pot of water you put
on the stove would only get hot on the bottom "layer" of water. You
shouldn't look for tricky explanations when simple ones are the right
ones.

Well, I think it's a valid question too, and especially interesting
since the way an old-fashioned radiator seems to be counterintuitive. I
mean, based on what we all learned about heat in grade school, the inlet
should be at the bottom and the outlet at the top, right? Otherwise, one
would expect at least part of the radiator (the part above the outlet)
to be somewhat starved of heat.

I *think* what he's asking about (correct me if I'm wrong, O.P.) is
whether old radiators were constructed with any type of baffles, flow
directors, etc., to make the hot water or steam flow through the whole
thing.


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

On Feb 15, 7:47*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 2/15/2009 8:59 AM RicodJour spake thus:



On Feb 15, 11:46 am, Aaron Fude wrote:

I'm sure that the radiator completely fills up with hot water. It's
not convection an it's not conduction. It's some kind of flow trick
that I am trying to figure out. So does anyone know?

Yes, I do know and it has already been explained by me and others.

Why would you assume it's not conduction? *There is, of course,
turbulence in the water stream which mixes up the water to some
degree. *If it's not conduction at work, then the pot of water you put
on the stove would only get hot on the bottom "layer" of water. *You
shouldn't look for tricky explanations when simple ones are the right
ones.

Well, I think it's a valid question too, and especially interesting
since the way an old-fashioned radiator seems to be counterintuitive. I
mean, based on what we all learned about heat in grade school, the inlet
should be at the bottom and the outlet at the top, right? Otherwise, one
would expect at least part of the radiator (the part above the outlet)
to be somewhat starved of heat.

I *think* what he's asking about (correct me if I'm wrong, O.P.) is
whether old radiators were constructed with any type of baffles, flow
directors, etc., to make the hot water or steam flow through the whole
thing.

--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

OP here. Yes, that's what I am asking and I am still at a loss.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:07:09 -0800 (PST), Aaron Fude
wrote:

Hi,

I would like to learn how the water flows in a hot water heater. Is
there a description somewhere on the web. I'm thinking of an old
fashioned cast iron radiator or a modern runtal, such as this one:

http://www.eqwip.com/images/upload/items/solea.jpg

I'm basically puzzled how the water enters on the bottom left, leaves
on the bottom right and at the same is able to reach the top.

Each horizontal pipe is too small to take the water from the larger
pipe, which is bigger but more importantly, the water supply is for
all practical purposes, unlimited. So all the horizontal pipes get
filled. Then the right side pipe is big enough to accept all the
water that comes from the horizontal pipes. So there is flow in all
the horizontal pipes.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Thanks