Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3 burners.
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience: anyone
can read the warnings.

Willie

Willie The Wimp wrote:
Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide
(CO2), water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless
CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be
produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3
burners.
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer
motor worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should
I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience:
anyone can read the warnings.

I would think any CO would go up the chimney, unless the heat exchanger is shot.

"Willie The Wimp" wrote in message
...

Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide
(CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be
produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3 burners.
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience:
anyone
can read the warnings.

Willie
Maybe I don't fully understand your question. I don't see how you can have
sufficient oxygen and ventilation without the inducer running, since
producing a proper draft is what it does. If you provide proper draft
without an inducer motor you either have basically the same thing as the
older furnaces which depended on natural thermal draft or you have some
other type of fan produced draft. Proper combustion of a given volume of gas
requires a given volume of air regardless of how it is produced.
Insufficient air produces increased CO along with other effects. I am sure
others will have comments which may help more.

Don Young

"Willie The Wimp" wrote in message

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

I'll give you a theoretical answer to your theoretical question.

Theoretically, you re-wire the furnace to run without the induction motor.
It is not in perfect condition, so it gives off some CO. Your CO detector
malfunctions and your theoretical wife and six kids die. Then you call
1-800-sleazylaw and sue the guy on the newsgroup that said it would be OK to
run that way. Theoretically, you can get him put in jail and you are
awarded all his worldly possessions.

While I have my own theories as to how well it would run, I'm not going to
publicly state them. The manufacturers have more lawyers and engineers than
me.

On Feb 7, 9:53*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Willie The Wimp" wrote in message



Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

I'll give you a theoretical answer to your theoretical question.

Theoretically, you re-wire the furnace to run without the induction motor..
It is not in perfect condition, so it gives off some CO. *Your CO detector
malfunctions and your theoretical wife and six kids die. *Then you call
1-800-sleazylaw and sue the guy on the newsgroup that said it would be OK to
run that way. *Theoretically, you can get him put in jail and you are
awarded all his worldly possessions.

While I have my own theories as to how well it would run, I'm not going to
publicly state them. The manufacturers have more lawyers and engineers than
me.

Have you submitted the poster for a future Darwin award ? :-)

On Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:11:37 -0600, Willie The Wimp
wrote:


Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3 burners.
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience: anyone
can read the warnings.

Willie
If the furnace is properly set up, none of the Co produced will get
into the house, it will all go out the stack. More likely to get Co
from natural gas than methane, if anything.
If the inducer fan is not working, Co COULD leak into the house
because stack temperature alone may not be adequate to produce the
required draft in the stack, particularly on startup (which is why
inductor motors generally run on "high" for a short time at ignition,
then slow down when the stack temperature comes up.

On Feb 7, 5:11*pm, Willie The Wimp
wrote:
Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3 burners.
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience: anyone
can read the warnings.

Willie

Are you planning on tapping a garbage dump, where do you plan on
getting Methane. I bet the house will smell real real good with
unpurified land fill methane and possibly have dangerous impurities.

ransley wrote:

Are you planning on tapping a garbage dump, where do you plan on
getting Methane. I bet the house will smell real real good with
unpurified land fill methane and possibly have dangerous impurities.

Methane itself is odorless. Harvesting Methane from raw sources will, of
course, include various organic compounds from decomposing opossums,
methamphetamine lab waste, and an occassional Mafia success.

Maybe he farts a lot.

On Feb 8, 7:48*am, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 03:22:33 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Feb 7, 5:11*pm, Willie The Wimp
wrote:
Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2..

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3 burners..
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience: anyone
can read the warnings.

Willie

Are you planning on tapping a garbage dump, where do you plan on
getting Methane. I bet the house will smell real real good with
unpurified land fill methane and possibly have dangerous impurities.

ransley, did you miss the part where the op said, "Would appreciate
responses from those who FULLY understand the process of methand
oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience"
That is what leaves you out as you dont seem to fully understand
anything. Always flapping your yapper.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you re-tard understand my question

On Feb 8, 7:48*am, Bubba wrote:
On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 03:22:33 -0800 (PST), ransley





wrote:
On Feb 7, 5:11*pm, Willie The Wimp
wrote:
Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2..

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

I have a garden-variety 3-yr-old updraft 80% furnace. It has 3 burners..
As near as I can tell, the heat-exchanger consists of 1 unit with 3
tubular chambers which wind around and around, finally exhausting
to a standard roof-vent.

Following is just a theoretical question:
If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

Would appreciate responses from those who fully understand the process
of methane oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience: anyone
can read the warnings.

Willie

Are you planning on tapping a garbage dump, where do you plan on
getting Methane. I bet the house will smell real real good with
unpurified land fill methane and possibly have dangerous impurities.

ransley, did you miss the part where the op said, "Would appreciate
responses from those who FULLY understand the process of methand
oxidation or have non-sensationalized personal experience"
That is what leaves you out as you dont seem to fully understand
anything. Always flapping your yapper.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Your so pathetic, your life is so depressing and empty your only joy
is attacking my every post with stupid rants. Bubba the heat pro, wont
help nobody on alt.home.repair because he dont get a nickle. Get a
life.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2009 14:15:22 GMT, "JohnR66" wrote:

Maybe he farts a lot.

An old college professor friend of mine developed a methane digester
about 40-45 years ago at the University of Waterloo that was installed
at several local farms to make methane from animal manure. It was used
for heating and running a generator and other equipment. The methane
was stored in a floating tank and disolved, under pressure, in
Propane tanks for portable use.

No, or very little, smell from the methane when burned. He had some
sort of a "scrubber" on it to remove sulphur comounds if I remember
correctly. I used to have all the detailed documentation about it, but
lost it in one of several moves over the ensuing decades.

On 2/7/2009 3:11 PM Willie The Wimp spake thus:

Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

Where do you get this from?

So far as I know, methane *always* produces only carbon dioxide and
water vapor under ordinary combustion conditions. If there's a lack of
oxygen, wouldn't it simply result in more unburned fuel?

I think the only things as a result of burning CH4, besides CO2 and H2O,
would be due to the additives (like the mercaptans for odor).


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

On Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:16:33 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 2/7/2009 3:11 PM Willie The Wimp spake thus:

Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

the methane combines with sufficient oxygen, producing carbon dioxide (CO2),
water, and heat.

Carbon monoxide (CO), a poison, is produced as a by-product but, given
sufficient oxygen, is almost instantaneously converted to harmless CO2.

If sufficient oxygen is not present, a certain amount of CO can be produced.

Where do you get this from?

So far as I know, methane *always* produces only carbon dioxide and
water vapor under ordinary combustion conditions. If there's a lack of
oxygen, wouldn't it simply result in more unburned fuel?

Depends. On lots of things.

I think the only things as a result of burning CH4, besides CO2 and H2O,
would be due to the additives (like the mercaptans for odor).

Then why do we spend lots of $ for inducer fans in standard furnaces?

Natural gas is principally methane. Per "Combustion" at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

----------------------------------------------------------------
Combustion
In the combustion of methane, several steps are involved:

Methane is believed to form a formaldehyde (HCHO or H2CO). The formaldehyde
gives a formyl radical (HCO), which then forms carbon monoxide (CO). The
process is called oxidative pyrolysis:

CH4 + O2 --- CO + H2 + H2O ------------ Production of Carbon Monoxide

Following oxidative pyrolysis, the H2 oxidizes, forming H2O, replenishing the
active species,[clarification needed] and releasing heat. This occurs very
quickly, usually in significantly less than a millisecond.

2H2 + O2 ---2H2O

Finally, the CO oxidizes, forming CO2 and releasing more heat. This process is
generally slower than the other chemical steps, and typically requires a few
to several milliseconds to occur.

2CO + O2 ---2CO2

The result of the above is the following total equation:

CH4(g) + 2O2(g) --- CO2(g) + 2H2O(l) + 890 kJ/mol[3]

where bracketed "g" stands for gaseous form and bracketed "l" stands for liquid form.
----------------------------------------------------------------

When we had power outages due to ice storms 2 winters ago, everyone was
warned NOT to run their gas ranges for heat. I believe this is because
they assume that improper venting could lead to CO poisoning. Likely
what they really needed to do is crack windows a little.

There are similar warnings about running space heaters in sealed-off
rooms.

It *is* possible to produce CO with incomplete/choked-off combustion
of nat. gas. I can't tell you the exact circumstances or how much. A chemistry
prof might be able to.

Care to venture an answer to the original question?

Willie

On 2/8/2009 7:47 PM Willie The Wimp spake thus:

Care to venture an answer to the original question?

Sure; the original question being

If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

my answer would be "no".


--
Personally, I like Vista, but I probably won't use it. I like it
because it generates considerable business for me in consulting and
upgrades. As long as there is hardware and software out there that
doesn't work, I stay in business. Incidentally, my company motto is
"If this stuff worked, you wouldn't need me".

- lifted from sci.electronics.repair

On Sun, 08 Feb 2009 19:55:41 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

If I could "wire" my furnace such that everything save the inducer motor
worked fine, given sufficient oxygen, ventilation, etc, should I expect
my CO-detector to issue a warning?

my answer would be "no".

Consistent with my personal estimate.

Willie