On Feb 1, 12:41*pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:16*am, mm wrote:





On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 04:29:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:20:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:05*pm, "Ray" wrote:
Our little cheapo 5" screen TV that we use in the kitchen is doomed whenever
TV makes its conversion -- in June now, I believe. Obviously we won't get a
$100 converter box for a $15 TV set.

But I just noticed one of the discount stores has on sale a Prism digital

If it says digital on it, that should mean that it's digital. * And it
probably does, but read the box carefully, plug it in when you get
home and make sure it gets digital stations.

LCD TV. with a 7" screen. My question is whether this one would also require
a converter box -- or how could I tell.

It does have a retractable antenna, if that means anything.

All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.

Not true. *But they do have to be labeled if they won't receive
digital.

So says you. * The FCC says otherwise:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...mz1b5bray.html

But this isn't the FCC, it's signon sandiego.

It's an article from the March 5, 2005 Boston Globe. * I remember the
reqt to phase-in ATSC tuners very well. *It started with a date, maybe
around 2005 for the largest sets and worked it's way down in size over
time. * I also provided another link here in the thread to a broadcast
engineering site that says the same thing. * Kurt provided another
link. * So, now what? *You want to question the accuracy of the Boston
Globe and the other sources? * And your source, other than your own
opinion would be?







"March 5, 2007

Many Americans don't understand digital TV, but they no longer can buy
the old analog technology it replaces,

Maybe it's even illegal to sell it, but it's still for sale.

thanks to a federal mandate
that recently kicked in.

All new television sets designed to receive over-the-air signals must
now contain a tuner capable of receiving digital broadcasts, not just
the old-style analog signals we have relied on for the past half-
century.

The March 1 mandate covers smaller sets, the last bastion of all-
analog technology. "

Well, somehow it's wrong. * Even if for the sake of argument it is
illegal to sell analog sets, they are still selling them.

So far, the only one that appears to be selling them is Target. *They
are not taking orders online, but do say they have stock in some
stores. *If you have any other examples, I'd like to see them.



So, as I stated, for about 2 years now, ALL TVs manufactured for sale

This might be true, but in the first post you said "All tv's sold in
the US". * A big difference. * Who knows how big the unsold inventory
of analog tv's is. *

Yes, that's true. *I mistated it. * But interestingly, it's beyond
manufactured. *According to the link Kurt provided, the FCC order bans
the importation or interstate shipment of TVs without an ATSC tuner
after Mar 2007.

Knowing how the consumer electronics biz works, would you expect to
find sets that haven't been shipped for 2 years still on the shelf?
Yeah, you might find some exception, which apparently the Target case
is. * IIf you have others that you know of, I'd be happy to see them.



in the USA must have an ATSC tuner. * Yeah, you might find some TV
somewhere that was built prior to Mar 2007, but the chances of that
are small, unless it's some refurbished piece of crap.

He said he was shopping at a discount house. * (And I'm pretty sure
the ones I saw were also at Target, like Salty says. Maybe they bought
a big bunch of them somewhere. *There are loads of seconds, odd-lots,
unsold lots, leftovers, of all sorts of things. Certain stores
specialize in them (although often mixing them with cheap shlock that
isn't a bargain), and others sell them sometimes.)

Stores could buy them, but they couldn't legally ship them interstate
for the last 2 years. *That would seem to severly limit what you might
find in the retail channel.



I don't understand why this question even needs to be asked. *All one
has to do is read the box.

The problem with that is that box writers are very good at being
misleading. *Do you remember when iiuc lots of tvs were called
cable-compatible, even though they still required a cable box to
receive stations. * IIUC, all tvs including the ones from the 1950's
were cable-compatible by that standard.

Nonsense. * The boxes will state if they have an ATSC tuner. * In
fact, another specific reqt of the FCC is that those TV without ATSC
that have been sold in the last 2 years MUST have a specific warning
that they are not DTV compatible. * Besides, a retailer would be
pretty stupid to sell crap that they are going to have to take back.







I wanted some food that didn't need refrigeration and saw that
Bumblebee Tuna had bags like that. One of their 3 similar packages
showed something wrapped up in what looked like baloney, but might
have been made out of tuna. * I thought that might be a "serving
suggestion", so I looked further and the bag said "wraps". *So I
bought it. *I haven't opened the bag yet, but now I see the words are
in a circle, with a big banner in the middlle separating "Good for"
from "Wraps". * So it's just the same chopped tuna fish with a
different flavor from the other two bags. * * And the other two were
just as suitable for wraps. *It's only $1.50, but I have to remember
to bring a fork and not think I can hold it by a wrapper that it
doesnt have.

The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.

Absolutely not. *I've seen non-digital tvs up to 15 inches in the
stores this year. *They were however labeled that they would require a
converter or something to receive digital signals.

Absolutely not what? * *The freaking FCC started this phase-in about 4
years ago. *It's a fact. *It started with the largest TV and worked
it's way down. *Since Mar 2005 all TV's have been included, which
means you can't manufacture them, import them, ship them interstate.

So, you saw some leftovers. *Maybe they were refurbished, so what?
Hmmm, doesn't the fact that they were clearly labeled go completely
opposite to your whine above?



These tvs still work with converters, cable, and satellite. *That's
the vast majority of America. *Let the manufacturers change over their
production as they see fit. *Just don't mislead consumers.- Hide quoted

One more time: *The FCC mandated the changeover. * It was NOT left to
the discretion of the manufacturers. *The FCC did it because they
wanted to be sure that all TV's being sold by now would be DTV
compatible to ease the transition. * * OK, not all, but almost all,
because 2 years later, I'd bet the amount of non ATSC units being sold
is a miniscule amount of all TVs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I stopped by Walmart and Target this afternoon to check out if they
had any TVs without a digital ATSC tuner and here's the results.
Target did have the Truetech 13" that was discussed in this thread. I
saw one in the box and on the box description, which is brief, there
is no mention of DTV or an ATSC tuner or any tuner at all for that
matter. Two salespeople were standing right there and I asked them
if it had a digital compatible tuner. The immediate response was
"All our TVs have digital tuners" However, given the fact that it is
not listed on the box and on the website it says that particular TV
does not have a digital tuner, I'm inclined to think that it probably
does not and the salepeople don;'t know what they are talking about.
The Truetech appears to be Target's house brand and is built in
Thailand.

At Walmart, every TV, including the cheapest Polaroid 15" did have a
digital tuner. There were no NTSC only units.

So, it appears that if that Target TV is in fact NTSC only, then it is
in violation of the law, at least on one key point. And that is that
if they are selling any such TVs at this late date, then they must be
marked with the required FCC statement that they lack the digital
tuner and a converter will be required. That was clearly not
displayed, nor was it on the box. I would also think that the law
may have been violated regarding importing them, shipping them
interstate, etc, as I find it hard to believe these TVs have been in
all the various Target stores for almost 2 years now.

On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:01:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 1, 12:41*pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:16*am, mm wrote:





On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 04:29:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:20:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:05*pm, "Ray" wrote:
Our little cheapo 5" screen TV that we use in the kitchen is doomed whenever
TV makes its conversion -- in June now, I believe. Obviously we won't get a
$100 converter box for a $15 TV set.

But I just noticed one of the discount stores has on sale a Prism digital

If it says digital on it, that should mean that it's digital. * And it
probably does, but read the box carefully, plug it in when you get
home and make sure it gets digital stations.

LCD TV. with a 7" screen. My question is whether this one would also require
a converter box -- or how could I tell.

It does have a retractable antenna, if that means anything.

All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.

Not true. *But they do have to be labeled if they won't receive
digital.

So says you. * The FCC says otherwise:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...mz1b5bray.html

But this isn't the FCC, it's signon sandiego.

It's an article from the March 5, 2005 Boston Globe. * I remember the
reqt to phase-in ATSC tuners very well. *It started with a date, maybe
around 2005 for the largest sets and worked it's way down in size over
time. * I also provided another link here in the thread to a broadcast
engineering site that says the same thing. * Kurt provided another
link. * So, now what? *You want to question the accuracy of the Boston
Globe and the other sources? * And your source, other than your own
opinion would be?







"March 5, 2007

Many Americans don't understand digital TV, but they no longer can buy
the old analog technology it replaces,

Maybe it's even illegal to sell it, but it's still for sale.

thanks to a federal mandate
that recently kicked in.

All new television sets designed to receive over-the-air signals must
now contain a tuner capable of receiving digital broadcasts, not just
the old-style analog signals we have relied on for the past half-
century.

The March 1 mandate covers smaller sets, the last bastion of all-
analog technology. "

Well, somehow it's wrong. * Even if for the sake of argument it is
illegal to sell analog sets, they are still selling them.

So far, the only one that appears to be selling them is Target. *They
are not taking orders online, but do say they have stock in some
stores. *If you have any other examples, I'd like to see them.



So, as I stated, for about 2 years now, ALL TVs manufactured for sale

This might be true, but in the first post you said "All tv's sold in
the US". * A big difference. * Who knows how big the unsold inventory
of analog tv's is. *

Yes, that's true. *I mistated it. * But interestingly, it's beyond
manufactured. *According to the link Kurt provided, the FCC order bans
the importation or interstate shipment of TVs without an ATSC tuner
after Mar 2007.

Knowing how the consumer electronics biz works, would you expect to
find sets that haven't been shipped for 2 years still on the shelf?
Yeah, you might find some exception, which apparently the Target case
is. * IIf you have others that you know of, I'd be happy to see them.



in the USA must have an ATSC tuner. * Yeah, you might find some TV
somewhere that was built prior to Mar 2007, but the chances of that
are small, unless it's some refurbished piece of crap.

He said he was shopping at a discount house. * (And I'm pretty sure
the ones I saw were also at Target, like Salty says. Maybe they bought
a big bunch of them somewhere. *There are loads of seconds, odd-lots,
unsold lots, leftovers, of all sorts of things. Certain stores
specialize in them (although often mixing them with cheap shlock that
isn't a bargain), and others sell them sometimes.)

Stores could buy them, but they couldn't legally ship them interstate
for the last 2 years. *That would seem to severly limit what you might
find in the retail channel.



I don't understand why this question even needs to be asked. *All one
has to do is read the box.

The problem with that is that box writers are very good at being
misleading. *Do you remember when iiuc lots of tvs were called
cable-compatible, even though they still required a cable box to
receive stations. * IIUC, all tvs including the ones from the 1950's
were cable-compatible by that standard.

Nonsense. * The boxes will state if they have an ATSC tuner. * In
fact, another specific reqt of the FCC is that those TV without ATSC
that have been sold in the last 2 years MUST have a specific warning
that they are not DTV compatible. * Besides, a retailer would be
pretty stupid to sell crap that they are going to have to take back.







I wanted some food that didn't need refrigeration and saw that
Bumblebee Tuna had bags like that. One of their 3 similar packages
showed something wrapped up in what looked like baloney, but might
have been made out of tuna. * I thought that might be a "serving
suggestion", so I looked further and the bag said "wraps". *So I
bought it. *I haven't opened the bag yet, but now I see the words are
in a circle, with a big banner in the middlle separating "Good for"
from "Wraps". * So it's just the same chopped tuna fish with a
different flavor from the other two bags. * * And the other two were
just as suitable for wraps. *It's only $1.50, but I have to remember
to bring a fork and not think I can hold it by a wrapper that it
doesnt have.

The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.

Absolutely not. *I've seen non-digital tvs up to 15 inches in the
stores this year. *They were however labeled that they would require a
converter or something to receive digital signals.

Absolutely not what? * *The freaking FCC started this phase-in about 4
years ago. *It's a fact. *It started with the largest TV and worked
it's way down. *Since Mar 2005 all TV's have been included, which
means you can't manufacture them, import them, ship them interstate.

So, you saw some leftovers. *Maybe they were refurbished, so what?
Hmmm, doesn't the fact that they were clearly labeled go completely
opposite to your whine above?



These tvs still work with converters, cable, and satellite. *That's
the vast majority of America. *Let the manufacturers change over their
production as they see fit. *Just don't mislead consumers.- Hide quoted

One more time: *The FCC mandated the changeover. * It was NOT left to
the discretion of the manufacturers. *The FCC did it because they
wanted to be sure that all TV's being sold by now would be DTV
compatible to ease the transition. * * OK, not all, but almost all,
because 2 years later, I'd bet the amount of non ATSC units being sold
is a miniscule amount of all TVs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I stopped by Walmart and Target this afternoon to check out if they
had any TVs without a digital ATSC tuner and here's the results.
Target did have the Truetech 13" that was discussed in this thread. I
saw one in the box and on the box description, which is brief, there
is no mention of DTV or an ATSC tuner or any tuner at all for that
matter. Two salespeople were standing right there and I asked them
if it had a digital compatible tuner. The immediate response was
"All our TVs have digital tuners" However, given the fact that it is
not listed on the box and on the website it says that particular TV
does not have a digital tuner, I'm inclined to think that it probably
does not and the salepeople don;'t know what they are talking about.
The Truetech appears to be Target's house brand and is built in
Thailand.

At Walmart, every TV, including the cheapest Polaroid 15" did have a
digital tuner. There were no NTSC only units.

So, it appears that if that Target TV is in fact NTSC only, then it is
in violation of the law, at least on one key point. And that is that
if they are selling any such TVs at this late date, then they must be
marked with the required FCC statement that they lack the digital
tuner and a converter will be required. That was clearly not
displayed, nor was it on the box. I would also think that the law
may have been violated regarding importing them, shipping them
interstate, etc, as I find it hard to believe these TVs have been in
all the various Target stores for almost 2 years now.

So, did you buy it?

from fcc documents
2008-

it's not illegal, but it can be expensive selling ntsc sets-
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-281444A1.txt


under "Cit" there's a long list of retailers that were
given citations for violating the analog set rule -
http://www.fcc.gov/Document_Indexes/...ual_index.html

2007-

fcc advisory, retailing atsc/ntsc sets, dated may 25 2007 -
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-273967A1.txt

under "Cit" there's a long list of retailers that were
given citations for violating the analog set rule -
http://www.fcc.gov/Document_Indexes/...ual_index.html

under NAL (fines) here's a funny, the FCC couldn't find the
radio station's studio.-
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-278367A1.txt

Truly the FCC should of set a drop dead rate for production of sets
allowing sales of existing inventory for 2 years and TEN YEARS before
turning off analog.......

why hurry it so, if digital is truly so good people would voluntarily
migrate.

rather than politicians forcing the issue

On Feb 1, 10:15*am, Robert Neville wrote:
wrote:
No one is violating the law. The law only mandates that any TV's
MANUFACTURED after the cutoff date have ASTC tuners. Nowhere in the
laws does it say you can no longer sell pre-existing NTSC TV's after a
certain date.

Yes - you just know that them d*mn Republicans were in there trying to protect
their big business partners by preventing the poor consumer from knowing they
were buying a boat anchor.

Oh. Wait a second...

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/24...propose-warnin...

Let's see - 2007, who was in charge of the House then.... Hmmm.

The Republicans were still causing problems in the Congress then.

Conservatives are so damn slow learners.

TMT

On Feb 1, 12:55*pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 1:41*pm, wrote:





On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:54:14 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:

No need to get snippy. * It's only common web courtesy to provide a
link to something you've found that supports your position, instead
of expecting everyone else to go look for it, expecially when a
typical store has hundreds of TVs.

As I said, I wasn't expecting to spoon feed the group. I made an off
hand comment indicating that non-digital TV's are readily available at
major retailers. That hardly calls for cites or a full deposition
under oath.

Odd, I could have sworn you said: "Walmart has non-digital sets on their
website."

I need glasses.

Walmart has those, too.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, once again, would it kill you to provide a link or should we all
go looking through the specs of a bunch of TVs? *You saw it, you
should know which one it is, how hard is it to post the link?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

People who refuse to offer links especially after being asked nicely
are just lazy SOBs.

Ignore him.

TMT

On Feb 1, 7:40*pm, " wrote:
Truly the FCC should of set a drop dead rate for production of sets
allowing sales of existing inventory *for 2 years and TEN YEARS before
turning off analog.......

why hurry it so, if digital is truly so good people would voluntarily
migrate.

rather than politicians forcing the issue

Big Business wants our spectrum...I mean their spectrum.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Big Business wants our spectrum...I mean their spectrum.


Considering the fare on network TV, I suspect "business" can put it to
better use.

As I understand it, a big (biggest?) hunk goes for governmental use -
emergency responders and the like. A goodly portion does go to folks like
Verizon - emailing camera phone snaps of dogs humping uses a lot of
bandwidth.

wrote:

My comment was a reply to someone who hysterically claimed that NO
ONE could still be selling non-astc televisions. "Walmart" was used
generically, to mean "even major retailers". I didn't anticiopate that
folks here were so feeble that they couldn't find examples on their
own if they were befuddled by what I said.

I agree that "Walmart" has become synonymous with retailing in America*, but
to distinguish the company itself from a generic retailer, perhaps you
should observe the Xerox convention: A captial initial letter indicates the
company and a lower-case letter implies the concept.

Do that one thing, and I bet the number of people claiming you are a twit
diminishes by at least ten percent.

--------
* A goodly part of America, but not all. There are no Walmart stores in New
York City, D.C., Boston, San Francisco, Chicago, Seattle, Jersey City, or
Ann Arbor. There's one in Los Angeles and two in Philadelphia (the same
number as in Sioux Falls, SD).

wrote:

So, it appears that if that Target TV is in fact NTSC only, then it is
in violation of the law, at least on one key point. And that is that
if they are selling any such TVs at this late date, then they must be
marked with the required FCC statement that they lack the digital
tuner and a converter will be required. That was clearly not
displayed, nor was it on the box. I would also think that the law
may have been violated regarding importing them, shipping them
interstate, etc, as I find it hard to believe these TVs have been in
all the various Target stores for almost 2 years now.

What can you expect from a company that hates the Salvation Army
bell-ringers?

On Feb 1, 6:16*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:01:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:41*pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:16*am, mm wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 04:29:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:20:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:05*pm, "Ray" wrote:
Our little cheapo 5" screen TV that we use in the kitchen is doomed whenever
TV makes its conversion -- in June now, I believe. Obviously we won't get a
$100 converter box for a $15 TV set.

But I just noticed one of the discount stores has on sale a Prism digital

If it says digital on it, that should mean that it's digital. * And it
probably does, but read the box carefully, plug it in when you get
home and make sure it gets digital stations.

LCD TV. with a 7" screen. My question is whether this one would also require
a converter box -- or how could I tell.

It does have a retractable antenna, if that means anything.

All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.

Not true. *But they do have to be labeled if they won't receive
digital.

So says you. * The FCC says otherwise:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...mz1b5bray.html

But this isn't the FCC, it's signon sandiego.

It's an article from the March 5, 2005 Boston Globe. * I remember the
reqt to phase-in ATSC tuners very well. *It started with a date, maybe
around 2005 for the largest sets and worked it's way down in size over
time. * I also provided another link here in the thread to a broadcast
engineering site that says the same thing. * Kurt provided another
link. * So, now what? *You want to question the accuracy of the Boston
Globe and the other sources? * And your source, other than your own
opinion would be?

"March 5, 2007

Many Americans don't understand digital TV, but they no longer can buy
the old analog technology it replaces,

Maybe it's even illegal to sell it, but it's still for sale.

thanks to a federal mandate
that recently kicked in.

All new television sets designed to receive over-the-air signals must
now contain a tuner capable of receiving digital broadcasts, not just
the old-style analog signals we have relied on for the past half-
century.

The March 1 mandate covers smaller sets, the last bastion of all-
analog technology. "

Well, somehow it's wrong. * Even if for the sake of argument it is
illegal to sell analog sets, they are still selling them.

So far, the only one that appears to be selling them is Target. *They
are not taking orders online, but do say they have stock in some
stores. *If you have any other examples, I'd like to see them.

So, as I stated, for about 2 years now, ALL TVs manufactured for sale

This might be true, but in the first post you said "All tv's sold in
the US". * A big difference. * Who knows how big the unsold inventory
of analog tv's is. *

Yes, that's true. *I mistated it. * But interestingly, it's beyond
manufactured. *According to the link Kurt provided, the FCC order bans
the importation or interstate shipment of TVs without an ATSC tuner
after Mar 2007.

Knowing how the consumer electronics biz works, would you expect to
find sets that haven't been shipped for 2 years still on the shelf?
Yeah, you might find some exception, which apparently the Target case
is. * IIf you have others that you know of, I'd be happy to see them..

in the USA must have an ATSC tuner. * Yeah, you might find some TV
somewhere that was built prior to Mar 2007, but the chances of that
are small, unless it's some refurbished piece of crap.

He said he was shopping at a discount house. * (And I'm pretty sure
the ones I saw were also at Target, like Salty says. Maybe they bought
a big bunch of them somewhere. *There are loads of seconds, odd-lots,
unsold lots, leftovers, of all sorts of things. Certain stores
specialize in them (although often mixing them with cheap shlock that
isn't a bargain), and others sell them sometimes.)

Stores could buy them, but they couldn't legally ship them interstate
for the last 2 years. *That would seem to severly limit what you might
find in the retail channel.

I don't understand why this question even needs to be asked. *All one
has to do is read the box.

The problem with that is that box writers are very good at being
misleading. *Do you remember when iiuc lots of tvs were called
cable-compatible, even though they still required a cable box to
receive stations. * IIUC, all tvs including the ones from the 1950's
were cable-compatible by that standard.

Nonsense. * The boxes will state if they have an ATSC tuner. * In
fact, another specific reqt of the FCC is that those TV without ATSC
that have been sold in the last 2 years MUST have a specific warning
that they are not DTV compatible. * Besides, a retailer would be
pretty stupid to sell crap that they are going to have to take back.

I wanted some food that didn't need refrigeration and saw that
Bumblebee Tuna had bags like that. One of their 3 similar packages
showed something wrapped up in what looked like baloney, but might
have been made out of tuna. * I thought that might be a "serving
suggestion", so I looked further and the bag said "wraps". *So I
bought it. *I haven't opened the bag yet, but now I see the words are
in a circle, with a big banner in the middlle separating "Good for"
from "Wraps". * So it's just the same chopped tuna fish with a
different flavor from the other two bags. * * And the other two were
just as suitable for wraps. *It's only $1.50, but I have to remember
to bring a fork and not think I can hold it by a wrapper that it
doesnt have.

The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.

Absolutely not. *I've seen non-digital tvs up to 15 inches in the
stores this year. *They were however labeled that they would require a
converter or something to receive digital signals.

Absolutely not what? * *The freaking FCC started this phase-in about 4
years ago. *It's a fact. *It started with the largest TV and worked
it's way down. *Since Mar 2005 all TV's have been included, which
means you can't manufacture them, import them, ship them interstate.

So, you saw some leftovers. *Maybe they were refurbished, so what?
Hmmm, doesn't the fact that they were clearly labeled go completely
opposite to your whine above?

These tvs still work with converters, cable, and satellite. *That's
the vast majority of America. *Let the manufacturers change over their
production as they see fit. *Just don't mislead consumers.- Hide quoted

One more time: *The FCC mandated the changeover. * It was NOT left to
the discretion of the manufacturers. *The FCC did it because they
wanted to be sure that all TV's being sold by now would be DTV
compatible to ease the transition. * * OK, not all, but almost all,
because 2 years later, I'd bet the amount of non ATSC units being sold
is a miniscule amount of all TVs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stopped by Walmart and Target this afternoon to check out if they
had any TVs without a digital ATSC tuner and here's the results.
Target did have the Truetech 13" that was discussed in this thread. *I
saw one in the box and on the box description, which is brief, there
is no mention of DTV or an ATSC tuner or any tuner at all for that
matter. * Two salespeople were standing right there and I asked them
if it had a digital compatible tuner. * The immediate response was
"All our TVs have digital tuners" *However, given the fact that it is
not listed on the box and on the website it says that particular TV
does not have a digital tuner, I'm inclined to think that it probably
does not and the salepeople don;'t know what they are talking about.
The Truetech appears to be Target's house brand and is built in
Thailand.

At Walmart, every TV, including *the cheapest Polaroid 15" did have a
digital tuner. * There were no NTSC only units.

So, it appears that if that Target TV is in fact NTSC only, then it is
in violation of the law, at least on one key point. *And that is that
if they are selling any such TVs at this late date, then they must be
marked with the required FCC statement that they lack the digital
tuner and a converter will be required. * That was clearly not
displayed, nor was it on the box. * I would also think that the law
may have been violated regarding importing them, shipping them
interstate, etc, as I find it hard to believe these TVs have been in
all the various Target stores for almost 2 years now.

So, did you buy it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, I'm waiting for the mythical one, without any link, to appear at
Walmart that you told us so much about.

On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:14:50 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

wrote:

My comment was a reply to someone who hysterically claimed that NO
ONE could still be selling non-astc televisions. "Walmart" was used
generically, to mean "even major retailers". I didn't anticiopate that
folks here were so feeble that they couldn't find examples on their
own if they were befuddled by what I said.

I agree that "Walmart" has become synonymous with retailing in America*, but
to distinguish the company itself from a generic retailer, perhaps you
should observe the Xerox convention: A captial initial letter indicates the
company and a lower-case letter implies the concept.

Do that one thing, and I bet the number of people claiming you are a twit
diminishes by at least ten percent.


There is absolutely nothing you can do to reduce the number of people
who think YOU are a twit.

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 03:30:56 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Feb 1, 6:16*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:01:59 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:41*pm, wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:16*am, mm wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2009 04:29:43 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, mm wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:20:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:05*pm, "Ray" wrote:
Our little cheapo 5" screen TV that we use in the kitchen is doomed whenever
TV makes its conversion -- in June now, I believe. Obviously we won't get a
$100 converter box for a $15 TV set.

But I just noticed one of the discount stores has on sale a Prism digital

If it says digital on it, that should mean that it's digital. * And it
probably does, but read the box carefully, plug it in when you get
home and make sure it gets digital stations.

LCD TV. with a 7" screen. My question is whether this one would also require
a converter box -- or how could I tell.

It does have a retractable antenna, if that means anything.

All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.

Not true. *But they do have to be labeled if they won't receive
digital.

So says you. * The FCC says otherwise:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...mz1b5bray.html

But this isn't the FCC, it's signon sandiego.

It's an article from the March 5, 2005 Boston Globe. * I remember the
reqt to phase-in ATSC tuners very well. *It started with a date, maybe
around 2005 for the largest sets and worked it's way down in size over
time. * I also provided another link here in the thread to a broadcast
engineering site that says the same thing. * Kurt provided another
link. * So, now what? *You want to question the accuracy of the Boston
Globe and the other sources? * And your source, other than your own
opinion would be?

"March 5, 2007

Many Americans don't understand digital TV, but they no longer can buy
the old analog technology it replaces,

Maybe it's even illegal to sell it, but it's still for sale.

thanks to a federal mandate
that recently kicked in.

All new television sets designed to receive over-the-air signals must
now contain a tuner capable of receiving digital broadcasts, not just
the old-style analog signals we have relied on for the past half-
century.

The March 1 mandate covers smaller sets, the last bastion of all-
analog technology. "

Well, somehow it's wrong. * Even if for the sake of argument it is
illegal to sell analog sets, they are still selling them.

So far, the only one that appears to be selling them is Target. *They
are not taking orders online, but do say they have stock in some
stores. *If you have any other examples, I'd like to see them.

So, as I stated, for about 2 years now, ALL TVs manufactured for sale

This might be true, but in the first post you said "All tv's sold in
the US". * A big difference. * Who knows how big the unsold inventory
of analog tv's is. *

Yes, that's true. *I mistated it. * But interestingly, it's beyond
manufactured. *According to the link Kurt provided, the FCC order bans
the importation or interstate shipment of TVs without an ATSC tuner
after Mar 2007.

Knowing how the consumer electronics biz works, would you expect to
find sets that haven't been shipped for 2 years still on the shelf?
Yeah, you might find some exception, which apparently the Target case
is. * IIf you have others that you know of, I'd be happy to see them.

in the USA must have an ATSC tuner. * Yeah, you might find some TV
somewhere that was built prior to Mar 2007, but the chances of that
are small, unless it's some refurbished piece of crap.

He said he was shopping at a discount house. * (And I'm pretty sure
the ones I saw were also at Target, like Salty says. Maybe they bought
a big bunch of them somewhere. *There are loads of seconds, odd-lots,
unsold lots, leftovers, of all sorts of things. Certain stores
specialize in them (although often mixing them with cheap shlock that
isn't a bargain), and others sell them sometimes.)

Stores could buy them, but they couldn't legally ship them interstate
for the last 2 years. *That would seem to severly limit what you might
find in the retail channel.

I don't understand why this question even needs to be asked. *All one
has to do is read the box.

The problem with that is that box writers are very good at being
misleading. *Do you remember when iiuc lots of tvs were called
cable-compatible, even though they still required a cable box to
receive stations. * IIUC, all tvs including the ones from the 1950's
were cable-compatible by that standard.

Nonsense. * The boxes will state if they have an ATSC tuner. * In
fact, another specific reqt of the FCC is that those TV without ATSC
that have been sold in the last 2 years MUST have a specific warning
that they are not DTV compatible. * Besides, a retailer would be
pretty stupid to sell crap that they are going to have to take back.

I wanted some food that didn't need refrigeration and saw that
Bumblebee Tuna had bags like that. One of their 3 similar packages
showed something wrapped up in what looked like baloney, but might
have been made out of tuna. * I thought that might be a "serving
suggestion", so I looked further and the bag said "wraps". *So I
bought it. *I haven't opened the bag yet, but now I see the words are
in a circle, with a big banner in the middlle separating "Good for"
from "Wraps". * So it's just the same chopped tuna fish with a
different flavor from the other two bags. * * And the other two were
just as suitable for wraps. *It's only $1.50, but I have to remember
to bring a fork and not think I can hold it by a wrapper that it
doesnt have.

The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.

Absolutely not. *I've seen non-digital tvs up to 15 inches in the
stores this year. *They were however labeled that they would require a
converter or something to receive digital signals.

Absolutely not what? * *The freaking FCC started this phase-in about 4
years ago. *It's a fact. *It started with the largest TV and worked
it's way down. *Since Mar 2005 all TV's have been included, which
means you can't manufacture them, import them, ship them interstate.

So, you saw some leftovers. *Maybe they were refurbished, so what?
Hmmm, doesn't the fact that they were clearly labeled go completely
opposite to your whine above?

These tvs still work with converters, cable, and satellite. *That's
the vast majority of America. *Let the manufacturers change over their
production as they see fit. *Just don't mislead consumers.- Hide quoted

One more time: *The FCC mandated the changeover. * It was NOT left to
the discretion of the manufacturers. *The FCC did it because they
wanted to be sure that all TV's being sold by now would be DTV
compatible to ease the transition. * * OK, not all, but almost all,
because 2 years later, I'd bet the amount of non ATSC units being sold
is a miniscule amount of all TVs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stopped by Walmart and Target this afternoon to check out if they
had any TVs without a digital ATSC tuner and here's the results.
Target did have the Truetech 13" that was discussed in this thread. *I
saw one in the box and on the box description, which is brief, there
is no mention of DTV or an ATSC tuner or any tuner at all for that
matter. * Two salespeople were standing right there and I asked them
if it had a digital compatible tuner. * The immediate response was
"All our TVs have digital tuners" *However, given the fact that it is
not listed on the box and on the website it says that particular TV
does not have a digital tuner, I'm inclined to think that it probably
does not and the salepeople don;'t know what they are talking about.
The Truetech appears to be Target's house brand and is built in
Thailand.

At Walmart, every TV, including *the cheapest Polaroid 15" did have a
digital tuner. * There were no NTSC only units.

So, it appears that if that Target TV is in fact NTSC only, then it is
in violation of the law, at least on one key point. *And that is that
if they are selling any such TVs at this late date, then they must be
marked with the required FCC statement that they lack the digital
tuner and a converter will be required. * That was clearly not
displayed, nor was it on the box. * I would also think that the law
may have been violated regarding importing them, shipping them
interstate, etc, as I find it hard to believe these TVs have been in
all the various Target stores for almost 2 years now.

So, did you buy it?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, I'm waiting for the mythical one, without any link, to appear at
Walmart that you told us so much about.

What a little crybaby

On Feb 1, 11:03�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Big Business wants our spectrum...I mean their spectrum.

Considering the fare on network TV, I suspect "business" can put it to
better use.

As I understand it, a big (biggest?) hunk goes for governmental use -
emergency responders and the like. A goodly portion does go to folks like
Verizon - emailing camera phone snaps of dogs humping uses a lot of
bandwidth.

I understand most went to verizon for added cell phone use


all parties involved should disclose exactly who bought the spectrum,
whats its future use will be, its develpoment schedule, and dollars
involved.

it was public use spectrum, the public should be fully informed.

wrote:

I agree that "Walmart" has become synonymous with retailing in
America*, but to distinguish the company itself from a generic
retailer, perhaps you should observe the Xerox convention: A captial
initial letter indicates the company and a lower-case letter implies
the concept.

Do that one thing, and I bet the number of people claiming you are a
twit diminishes by at least ten percent.


There is absolutely nothing you can do to reduce the number of people
who think YOU are a twit.

More agreement. 'Tis the "White Man's Burden.' But I (and others) must
soldier on. It's not my choice, I was born to the manor, sort of a noblesse
oblige.

You'll thank me when you get older.

wrote:
On Feb 1, 11:03�pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Big Business wants our spectrum...I mean their spectrum.
Considering the fare on network TV, I suspect "business" can put it to
better use.

As I understand it, a big (biggest?) hunk goes for governmental use -
emergency responders and the like. A goodly portion does go to folks like
Verizon - emailing camera phone snaps of dogs humping uses a lot of
bandwidth.

I understand most went to verizon for added cell phone use


all parties involved should disclose exactly who bought the spectrum,
whats its future use will be, its develpoment schedule, and dollars
involved.

it was public use spectrum, the public should be fully informed.

It's posted daily on the http://wireless.fcc.gov/ page-
look for 700 MHz licenses. The public service issue was a
smoke screen to get the auctions approved. I think you will
find pubsvc licenses will be a small part of the bandwidth.
mobile/portable video and wifi broadband will be a hugh
revenue stream for the private sector.


recent licenses-
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-08-2824A1.pdf

I. INTRODUCTION
1. In this Order, we review the above-referenced Auction 73
Form 601 application of
AT&T Mobility Spectrum, LLC (€œAT&T Mobility€�) and find that
the public interest would be served if
the application is granted. We therefore direct the
Mobility Division of the Wireless Telecommunications
Bureau (€œBureau€�) to process the application consistent with
this Order and the Commissions rules.
II. BACKGROUND
A. Auction 73
2. Auction 73 offered 1,099 licenses in the 700 MHz band,
involving a total of 62
megahertz located in the 698-806 MHz spectrum. The 700 MHz
band licenses may be used for flexible
fixed, mobile, and broadcast uses, including fixed and
mobile wireless commercial services; fixed and
mobile wireless uses for private, internal radio needs; and
mobile and other digital new broadcast
operations. These uses may include two-way interactive,
cellular, and mobile television broadcasting
services. The licenses offered in Auction 73 included: 176
Economic Area (€œEA€�) licenses (12
megahertz each) in the A Block; 734 Cellular Market Area
(€œCMA€�) licenses (12 megahertz each) in the
B Block; 176 EA licenses (6 megahertz each) in the E Block;
12 Regional Economic Area Grouping
(€œREAG€�) licenses (22 megahertz each) in the C Block; and
one nationwide license of 10 megahertz, to
be used as part of the 700 MHz Public/Private Partnership,
in the D Block.

or

11/26/2008
PUBLIC NOTICE (DA 08-2572)
WTB Grants 700 MHz Band Licenses
pdf - Word
Attachment A: pdf - xls
Attachment A1: pdf - xls
Attachment B: pdf - Word
Attachment C: pdf - Word
Attachment D: pdf - Word

a few solar panels on the roof and you can be totally free
of all grids. everything will be wireless to your house ;-)

-- larry / dallas

On Jan 31, 12:20*pm, wrote:


All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.
The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.

I thought I read on one of the consumer websites recently that
manufacturers and retailers are sometimes getting around that by
calling them HDTV "monitors" instead of "receivers" - basically
selling a TV without an ATSC tuner as a "monitor".

Jerry

wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:43:21 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

On Jan 31, 3:27 pm, " wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:20 pm, wrote:

On Jan 31, 2:05 pm, "Ray" wrote:
Our little cheapo 5" screen TV that we use in the kitchen is doomed whenever
TV makes its conversion -- in June now, I believe. Obviously we won't get a
$100 converter box for a $15 TV set.
But I just noticed one of the discount stores has on sale a Prism digital
LCD TV. with a 7" screen. My question is whether this one would also require
a converter box -- or how could I tell.
It does have a retractable antenna, if that means anything.
All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.
The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.
the converter boxes are cheap, recently target had them on sale for
$40.01

one cent over the coupon program
If you have an expired coupon from the govt, is it still honored?

Take the coupon to Best Buy and find one of the illiterate 20 year
olds that work the sales floor. (Most of them are illiterate high
school dropouts, so it wont be hard to find one). Get into a
conversation with this kid about things that would appeal to him, such
as boobs, tits, pussies, rap music and narcotics. Then in the middle
of that conversation choose the most expensive tv in the store and
tell him you want to buy one of them. Get him all worked up thinking
he is going to make a big sale and lots of money and benefits from his
boss. Tell him you will be back when you get your tax return and you
will buy two of them, one for yourself and one for your girlfriend,
who happens to be a nude model for a top shelf porn magazine, and
begin to tell him all about yourself who of course was in that
magazine naked. Then pull out a photo of a really attractive woman
(which you downloaded), and show it to him. About the exact second he
puts his hands down his pants (to wiggle the worm), grab a DTV
converter off the shelf and tell him that you want that for now, and
you got to go because your girlfriend requires sex at exactly 6pm (or
whatever time is approaching). Hand him your credit card and the DTV
coupon, and tell him to please hurry so you are not late.

With any luck, he wont even notice the expiration date. His mind will
be focused in the erection in his pants. If by chance he does notice,
tell his that his calendar must be wrong, and pull out your PDA (which
you set a month before the coupon expiration date before you entered
the store). Explain to him that he must have lost track of time and
it really IS November 16, 2008. At that time ask him what he plans to
do for Thanksgiving, and immediately tell him to please hurry, your
girlfriend will be very upset she is not given sex at precisely 6pm,.
and begin breathing very fast and hard. You'll be out the door in no
time and you saved $40.

The idiot kid WILL accept the coupon. Guaranteed !



other than the fact that the coupons are scanned and
validated real time. the idiot kid will happily hand it
back to you.

-l

wrote:
(BS story snipped)

ember 16, 2008. At that time ask him what he plans to
do for Thanksgiving, and immediately tell him to please hurry, your
girlfriend will be very upset she is not given sex at precisely 6pm,.
and begin breathing very fast and hard. You'll be out the door in no
time and you saved $40.

The idiot kid WILL accept the coupon. Guaranteed !


Uh, the expiration date is in the MAG STRIPE on the card. Basically, the
thing works just like a gift card. Expired cards will not work- the
cash register will just laugh at you.

--
aem sends...

larry wrote in
:

wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:43:21 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

On Jan 31, 3:27 pm, " wrote:
On Jan 31, 2:20 pm, wrote:

On Jan 31, 2:05 pm, "Ray" wrote:
Our little cheapo 5" screen TV that we use in the kitchen is
doomed whenever TV makes its conversion -- in June now, I
believe. Obviously we won't get a $100 converter box for a $15 TV
set. But I just noticed one of the discount stores has on sale a
Prism digital LCD TV. with a 7" screen. My question is whether
this one would also require a converter box -- or how could I
tell. It does have a retractable antenna, if that means anything.
All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner
built-in. The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few
years ago and included even the smallest for maybe the last 2
years or so.
the converter boxes are cheap, recently target had them on sale for
$40.01

one cent over the coupon program
If you have an expired coupon from the govt, is it still honored?



other than the fact that the coupons are scanned and
validated real time. the idiot kid will happily hand it
back to you.

-l


has anyone actually TRIED to use a expired coupon?

BTW,the Digital Prism is clearly marked "ATSC Television" right on the
front of the TV. CVS has them on sale for $100.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Feb 2, 5:15*pm, Jerry wrote:
On Jan 31, 12:20*pm, wrote:



All TVs sold in the US now have to have an ATSC DTV tuner built-in.
The requirement began with the largest TVs quite a few years ago and
included even the smallest for maybe the last 2 years or so.

I thought I read on one of the consumer websites recently that
manufacturers and retailers are sometimes getting around that by
calling them HDTV "monitors" instead of "receivers" - basically
selling a TV without an ATSC tuner as a "monitor".

Jerry

I believe the essential element there is that to be classified as a
monitor, it cannot contain a tuner at all. If it does contain an
NTSC tuner, then it's a TV and specifically covered under the FCC
decree. I don;t see a point in manufacturers trying to evade the
ATSC tuner at this point. There are plenty of low cost TVs with ATSC
built-in. Apparently including the one that started this thread. So
far, the only example anyone has come up with of a TV in the normal
retail channel being sold that doesn't have an ATSC tuner is the 13"
at Target.