Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I blew cellulose insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

wrote:
Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I blew cellulose insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

Worth it as in a more comfortable house, yes. If you can tie the
foundation wall temp to ambient below-frostline depth temp, the basement
and house will be a lot more comfortable. It almost becomes a bermed
home if you do it well enough. Worth it on payback period, is a whole
'nother question. Unless you have the strength, willpower, and time for
DIY, it is a lot of manual labor to insulate below frostline on the
outside. And I do mean manual labor- it is almost all hand work, unless
you want to destroy the yard and all plantings. Hand labor=expen$ive.
Most people give up some R-value to save front money, and insulate on
the inside. Often overlooked spot- is the band joist insulated, above
the sill plate but below the first floor decking? Also common to get air
leaks right at the sill plate, if they didn't gasket it correctly before
they laid it out.

Standard caveats apply about not creating leak paths by skinning the
wall, and having a vapor barrier on the cold side of the wall. Unless
your upper walls already happen to stick out unusually far, you will
need a big Z-flashing at the top of the insulation, and it will look
funny. May be able to disguise it with a wide trim board something. They
sell faux-stucco finish hi-density foam panels for the very application
you are thinking about. They go up with construction adhesive, and you
can even get color-matched putty and a texturing roller to hide the joints.

--
aem sends...

brainless wrote

(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold
and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed around 37

Drafty? I live in a southern clime now so am not experienced here, but
drafts usually mean there's doors or windows that arent sealed right. Can
you explain the setup a bit better?

On Oct 14, 11:05�pm, wrote:
Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full �basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed �around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I �blew cellulose �insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. �Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

use closed cell expanding foAM, MOISTURE DOESNT EFFET IT.

On Oct 15, 7:14�am, "cshenk" wrote:
brainless wrote

(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold
and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed �around 37

Drafty? �I live in a southern clime now so am not experienced here, but
drafts usually mean there's doors or windows that arent sealed right. �Can
you explain the setup a bit better?

Get a blower door test, they pressurize the building to look for leaks

On Oct 14, 11:05*pm, wrote:
Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full *basement,


Yes insulating the basement will help. You can do it several
ways. Which is best will depend on the current construction.
Assuming it is concrete block, which is common in your area AND
assuming it is dry (which is less common) I would use foam insulation
made for that use or frame it out and use fiberglass. I believe there
is even a fiberglass product made for that use today.

What is important is to make sure the wall is DRY.

Next put most of your effort on the top half of the wall. The
bottom half is already insulated be several feet of dirt. Dirt is not
a great insulator by with three or four feet of it, it does add
insulation.

Good Luck

On Oct 14, 10:05*pm, wrote:
Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full *basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed *around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I *blew cellulose *insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. *Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

To pinpoint air leaks and know what you need get an energy audit and
blower door test, also an IR photo. A blower door test will give you a
computer printout of air exchanges per hour and how many there should
be, the tech, with a smoke stick will show you what is leaking. 12+
cellulose in attic is not optimal in zone 5, first its likely 9"" now,
cellulose settles, but 12" is maybe R 43, optimal is near R60.
www.energystar.gov has good info

On Oct 15, 8:43*am, ransley wrote:
On Oct 14, 10:05*pm, wrote:

Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full *basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed *around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I *blew cellulose *insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. *Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

To pinpoint air leaks and know what you need get an energy audit and
blower door test, also an IR photo. A blower door test will give you a
computer printout of air exchanges per hour and how many there should
be, the tech, with a smoke stick will show you what is leaking. 12+
cellulose in attic is not optimal in zone 5, first its likely 9"" now,
cellulose settles, but 12" is maybe R 43, optimal is near R60.www.energystar.gov*has good info

That's where I would start too. For a basement to be drafty means
there has to be large air leakage somewhere. That is probably the
biggest problem, and until that is fixed adding insulation won't make
much difference, unless it happens to fix the leakage too. But
better to start with finding out how air is getting in.

wrote:
On Oct 15, 8:43 am, ransley wrote:
On Oct 14, 10:05 pm, wrote:

Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I blew cellulose insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...
To pinpoint air leaks and know what you need get an energy audit and
blower door test, also an IR photo. A blower door test will give you a
computer printout of air exchanges per hour and how many there should
be, the tech, with a smoke stick will show you what is leaking. 12+
cellulose in attic is not optimal in zone 5, first its likely 9"" now,
cellulose settles, but 12" is maybe R 43, optimal is near R60.www.energystar.gov has good info

That's where I would start too. For a basement to be drafty means
there has to be large air leakage somewhere. That is probably the
biggest problem, and until that is fixed adding insulation won't make
much difference, unless it happens to fix the leakage too. But
better to start with finding out how air is getting in.
We've discussed all this to death on here before. Around here, there is
no way to get an energy audit/thermal camera pictures/blower door test
etc. None of the local utilities offer the service, and the local HVAC
companies just want to sell new systems. I have looked, several times,
and I can't find a company within 100 miles to come do the site survey.
So, I have been doing seat-of-the-pants improvements based on personal
experience and discussions on here, and next on my list is to buy one of
those IR thermometer things, and start logging some data under various
sunlight and weather conditions, and hope a pattern pops out.

--
aem sends...

On Oct 15, 4:05 am, wrote:
Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I blew cellulose insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

You do not mention how much insulation you have in your floor?
Remember heat always moves to cold, that means down as well.
What you need is to disconnect your inner living space from the main
structure of the building.
That means lining the inside of the whole of the exterior walls, the
top ceiling and floors with two inches of polystyrene or similar to
stop the cold bridging of your existing insulation.
There are probably lots of places where the inner walls are in direct
contact with the outer shell.
It is these points where the heat leaks out.
Perry

No insulation in floor of this house...2 inches of polystyrene on inside of
outside walls? I am sure that would be very effective, but how do you do
that? drywall over it? and what about windows and doors? sounds very
difficult to do....the floor is surely doable, but would it then be colder
in basement? and would I need moisture barrier.....will probably try
insulating outside to frost line (if I can work out how to do)...but will
have to wait till next summer.

An easy way to find leaks is to wait for a windy, cold day, then when
you get out of the shower walk around wet-- you'll find the drafts
pretty quickly.

On Oct 15, 6:06*pm, aemeijers wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 15, 8:43 am, ransley wrote:
On Oct 14, 10:05 pm, wrote:

Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full *basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer. My basement is very cold and
drafty in winter...in dead of winter temp check showed *around 37
degrees...I have hot water heating too by the way. The House came with newer
Anderson windows and two years ago I *blew cellulose *insulation into all
walls that were not insulated...also added about 6" in attic....so total of
about 12" of cellulose there. *Oh and I also did my best to caulk everywhere
possible in basemen last winter, but seemed not to help much.......I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...
To pinpoint air leaks and know what you need get an energy audit and
blower door test, also an IR photo. A blower door test will give you a
computer printout of air exchanges per hour and how many there should
be, the tech, with a smoke stick will show you what is leaking. 12+
cellulose in attic is not optimal in zone 5, first its likely 9"" now,
cellulose settles, but 12" is maybe R 43, optimal is near R60.www.energystar.govhas good info

That's where I would start too. *For a basement to be drafty means
there has to be large air leakage somewhere. * That is probably the
biggest problem, and until that is fixed adding insulation won't make
much difference, unless it happens to fix the leakage too. * But
better to start with finding out how air is getting in.

We've discussed all this to death on here before. Around here, there is
no way to get an energy audit/thermal camera pictures/blower door test
etc. None of the local utilities offer the service, and the local HVAC
companies just want to sell new systems. *I have looked, several times,
and I can't find a company within 100 miles to come do the site survey.
So, I have been doing seat-of-the-pants improvements based on personal
experience and discussions on here, and next on my list is to buy one of
those IR thermometer things, and start logging some data under various
sunlight and weather conditions, and hope a pattern pops out.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You need someone that specialises in audits, My hvac co did my blower
door test, call the citys building dept or architech. You could try
your own with a big fan, fans, sealed into a door- window opening and
use something that smokes, insence sticks, the sticks that light
fireworks- " punks" , etc , Fill the holes first, An IR thermometer
isnt much help, I have one. An IR photo is help. You need to call
around, there are energy auditors everywhere, 100 miles isnt much.

On Oct 14, 11:05*pm, wrote:
..I have
noticed that the inside walls of basement are like ice cold to the touch
too. would it be worth while to dig down a couple of feet and insulate the
outside of basement and crawl space?? If so how to do it? Any advise
appreciated...

Minimal return on the labor, might be better insulating the walls
inside.
If it's practical, might consider replacing basement windows with a
single row of glass block at the upper level, attach plastic to the
house
and take it out about 15 feet, then cover with soil to the bottom of
the
glass blocks.
Frequently, walls are colder because there's not good positive slope
away from the structure.
Dry soil is far more insulative than wet soil. And clay dirt can be
your friend.

On Oct 14, 11:05*pm, wrote:
Live in 60 year old 1300 Sq Ft single story brick house with full *basement,
it has recent 600 Sq Ft addition with about 3' crawl space. Live in Michigan
(zone 5) and winter heating bills are a killer.

Have you installed a setback thermostat yet? Extremely good payback
on that.
And look for cobwebs in the basement. Those spiders find the air
leaks
nicely and identify them well..

On Oct 17, 12:44 am, wrote:
No insulation in floor of this house...2 inches of polystyrene on inside of
outside walls? I am sure that would be very effective, but how do you do
that? drywall over it? and what about windows and doors? sounds very
difficult to do....the floor is surely doable, but would it then be colder
in basement? and would I need moisture barrier.....will probably try
insulating outside to frost line (if I can work out how to do)...but will
have to wait till next summer.
========================
Its surprising how often homes are built without floor insulation, as
you have a basement then four or five inches of polystyrene pushed up
tight against the floor will do the trick, make sure its a tight fit,
holes equal loss of heat - heat always moves to cold and it will move
through the smallest hole. In a strong wind a hole 3 eights of an inch
can strip the heat from a home.
Yes, it will make the basement colder, but do you have anything down
there that will freeze?
If its only pipes, then decent insulation, sealed cell at least one
inch thick will do, if it really freezes then electrical resistance
wire wound round the pipes and controlled by a thermostat set at 35f
will do the trick at the cheapest to run cost.
As far as the walls go, stick the polystyrene to the existing walls,
then stick drywall over.
Polystyrene is almost water proof to 0.01%.
On my first ever job I used nails through the drywall and polystyrene,
then every time it got cold the heads of the nails showed up.
Insulating to the frost line, or laying polystyrene on the ground all
round the home and covering it with concrete does work but, it is
expensive and a lot of hard work.
Better to think of your home as a tight comfort zone and keep the heat
in the space you live in.
Windows need to be double or treble glazed, but this needs to be made
in a factory and it is expensive.
You have to look at the long term, are you likely to live there for
thirty years?