My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

On Aug 5, 5:39*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?

wrote:
On Aug 5, 5:39 pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce


I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?

With creative use of tees and valves, this doesn't necessarily need to
be a problem. Just need to remember to drain down the "attic loop"
before the outside temp. gets near freezing.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Aug 5, 6:39�pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

just like the law preventing HOAs from stopping satellite dishes there
should be one allowing solar panels, to help the envirnment........

I wouldnt live in a HOA community because of such issues

On 08/05/08 06:59 pm wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?


No, I am not pulling your leg. This is what they told me they are
thinking of. And, yes, I should have said whe "Hotlanta" area.

And also I omitted to repeat in the body of the message the word I used
in the subject line: "preheating." They are not thinking they are going
to get water hot enough for washing dishes from such a system, but they
are hoping to use less gas to heat their water.

Perce

Yes, possiblility it will freeze in winter. Where we talkin' 'bout?

s


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior appearance,
solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were wondering about
simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

Hot water really only costs about $15 a month anyway. So how much do they
plan to save. Even if you had 200' of 1/2" pipe up there, you're only
talking about preheating 2 gallons of water. Now if you put a properly
supported 50 gallon tank up there..........



s


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 08/05/08 06:59 pm wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?


No, I am not pulling your leg. This is what they told me they are thinking
of. And, yes, I should have said whe "Hotlanta" area.

And also I omitted to repeat in the body of the message the word I used in
the subject line: "preheating." They are not thinking they are going to
get water hot enough for washing dishes from such a system, but they are
hoping to use less gas to heat their water.

Perce

I doubt they'd get much benefit from preheating the water in the
pipes. There's just not a lot there. However, it's not uncommon in
large buildings to install a "tempering tank" in the boiler room. It's
basically a large holding tank that allows water to reach boiler room
temperature BEFORE it hits the water heater. That way the water heater
only has to raise it from 70-80 degrees to 140.

I have a friend who uses old water heaters (the non-leaking ones) as
tempering tanks in all of his rental properties. He removes the
insulation and installs them in the boiler rooms. He figures whatever
heat they absorb is that much less heat he has to pay for.

I wouldn't recommend his method if they're putting it in an attic--at
least not an old tank.

A very creative HVAC tech may be able to use some of the heat from central
AC to preheat a tank of water. The attic seems possible, but who can tell?
Might be more trouble than it is worth.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

I'd never want to live in such an area where Gladys Kravitch can tell me
what to do. Abner! Oh, Abner!

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

On Aug 5, 10:04*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
A very creative HVAC tech may be able to use some of the heat from central
AC to preheat a tank of water. The attic seems possible, but who can tell?
Might be more trouble than it is worth.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in ...
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

Where my woodstove is a primary source of heat in my home I have the
copper line to my HW boiler coiled under the stove before going to the
boiler. Been preheating HW boiler water like this for years, and it
works.

On Aug 5, 6:39�pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.

It might not gain you as much as you believe..........

Our homes attic temperature used to be 140 with outside at 90 till we
replaced the roof with a lighter color shingle and added ridge vent.

its now about 110 with outside at 90.

I have a recording thermostat for work I put it up there for a few
days out of curosity while on vacation

Steve Barker DLT wrote:
Hot water really only costs about $15 a month anyway. So how much do they
plan to save. Even if you had 200' of 1/2" pipe up there, you're only
talking about preheating 2 gallons of water. Now if you put a properly
supported 50 gallon tank up there..........



s


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 08/05/08 06:59 pm wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?
I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?

No, I am not pulling your leg. This is what they told me they are thinking
of. And, yes, I should have said whe "Hotlanta" area.

And also I omitted to repeat in the body of the message the word I used in
the subject line: "preheating." They are not thinking they are going to
get water hot enough for washing dishes from such a system, but they are
hoping to use less gas to heat their water.

Perce



How about a flat roof built like a shallow swimming pool, say 3
to 6" deep ?? Would that warm up enough ?? Would also catch the
rare Atlanta rain every now and then (BTW, catching rain like this
is illegal in some states, mostly Western, where "water laws"
prohibit such.)

If it is hot out and the water coming into the pipes is cool, wouldn't that
cause a lot of condensation on the pipes?


"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
On 08/05/08 06:59 pm wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

I am inclined to think that you're pulling our leg, but here is my
answer anyway. You did not tell us where the house will be built. If
ever winter temp drops below freezing, the copper pipes will bust like
you have never seen, sort of like cutting butter with a knife. Get
the picture?


No, I am not pulling your leg. This is what they told me they are thinking
of. And, yes, I should have said whe "Hotlanta" area.

And also I omitted to repeat in the body of the message the word I used in
the subject line: "preheating." They are not thinking they are going to
get water hot enough for washing dishes from such a system, but they are
hoping to use less gas to heat their water.

Perce

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote in message
...
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior appearance,
solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were wondering about
simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

Running copper lines through the attic probably won't add much heat to the
water. Plastic pipe won['t transmit the heat as well making it hardly worth
the effort. That said, a holding tank may be a good idea. That way a 10 or
20 gallon supply of water can sit in the attic and absorb heat during the
day.

The best method though, is to build where there is no HOA to boss you around
so you can build a good solar system.

On Aug 5, 6:39*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

I saw an installation like that years ago in some magazine. they'd
built a whole grid of pipes to allow the water plenty of time to
capture the heat. although now that i think about it, maybe just a
large tank, maybe about the same size as the water heater, would be
enough, rather than a lot of pipe. uninsulated tank, of course.
assuming that most of the time there would be enough time for the
whole tank to get back to temp between uses. one thing's for sure,
though; need to check for leaks frequently.

btw, i've been monitoring my attic temp this summer, and it peaks out
at around 120; that's in connecticut, and with an attic fan. that's
quite a big chunk of the way up to 140 or whatever you keep the water
at.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof
space.
Does this have possibilities?

If you listen to the caveats from others and use enough pipe, yes, it is
certainly possible. Cost effective is something else...

They'd need roughly 100' of 1/2" pipe to hold a gallon of water; however,
the pipe need not be in a straight run, it could be in a series of loops
like the cooling fins on a radiator.

It would be most effective if there were some sort of recirculating system
....a pump that activates when the resevoir temperature is "x" degrees below
ambient attic temperature.

Would it be worth it? Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000. If there
were a recirculating system they'd need a tank and pump but less tubing.
Would the cost to run the pump be less than the cost to just heat the water
in a tank? No idea but I kinda doubt it.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Aug 6, 8:15�am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof
space.
Does this have possibilities?

If you listen to the caveats from others and use enough pipe, yes, it is
certainly possible. �Cost effective is something else...

They'd need roughly 100' of 1/2" pipe to hold a gallon of water; however,
the pipe need not be in a straight run, it could be in a series of loops
like the cooling fins on a radiator.

It would be most effective if there were some sort of recirculating system
...a pump that activates when the resevoir temperature is "x" degrees below
ambient attic temperature.

Would it be worth it? �Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000. �If there
were a recirculating system they'd need a tank and pump but less tubing.
Would the cost to run the pump be less than the cost to just heat the water
in a tank? �No idea but I kinda doubt it.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it athttp://mysite.verizon.net/xico

USE PEX, its cheap!

Cold water pipe in a hot attic. Condensation on the pipe, and dripping
water.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce
forget silly idea. u americans are going to have to get used to no hot
water like the rest of us. no driving all over the place. no money.
welcome to the planet.

On Aug 6, 1:48*am, z wrote:

I saw an installation like that years ago in some magazine. they'd
built a whole grid of pipes to allow the water plenty of time to
capture the heat. although now that i think about it, maybe just a
large tank, maybe about the same *size as the water heater, would be
enough, rather than a lot of pipe. uninsulated *tank, of course.
assuming that most of the time there would be enough time for the
whole tank to get back to temp between uses. one thing's for sure,
though; need to check *for leaks frequently.


Preheating tanks are very common in hot climates, particularly where
electricity isn't abundant. These tanks are usually painted a dark
color and exposed directly to the sun. Not sure how efficient they
would be at picking up the ambient attic temperature. If there is
enough space around the house the tank doesn't need to be on the roof
as long as it has good solar exposure. It can be screened from the
neighbors.

If it's a new house solar panels can be designed into the roof without
looking like they're tacked on. They could probably be hidden from
street level. Given everyone's, hopefully, increasing environmental
awareness this shouldn't be a big issue. If not it's worth at least a
bit of a fight.

Bob wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof
space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce
forget silly idea. u americans are going to have to get used to no hot
water like the rest of us. no driving all over the place. no money.
welcome to the planet.

Have they considered placing pipe under a black asphalt driveway. My driveway
gets so hot you can't touch it. No one will know it's there so HOA should have
no problem. I don't know if it would work under a concrete drive.

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof
space.
Does this have possibilities?


Heh!

Use the entire attic as a giant collector for solar water heating?

You could get by with a 3x4 box-like thingy.

I am working on doing this myself. I will use CPVC which can stand the heat.
I've placed a remote thermometer in my attic and it gets to be 125 degrees
on a day when it is in the 80's outside.

I am going to run say 2" CPVC back and forth in the attic the entire length
of the house. With larger pipe, the water will flow more slowly and have a
longer period to heat-up.

Then I am going to get a solar water heater circulation pump, controller,
and electric solar panel to power it. This will circulate the water into my
hot water heater, but it will sense the temperature of the water from the
attic as well as in the tank and only circulate the water when the attic
water is warmer.

The reason I am using CPVC is I will have to drain the pipes before the 1st
freeze and I don' want any rust. So plastic.

Also I will need to run the pipes so all the water can drain out. And I will
need to install an air escape to get the air out when filling the pipes in
the spring.

So basically the pipes will run back and forth attached to the underside of
the rafters and going higher and higher with a gentle slope (for draining).
Then air release pipe at the top.

And valves for all this to by-pass in winter, drain, and let air escape.

Also CPVC will expand with heat, so need plastic fasteners which allow the
pipe to move back and forth.

Water heater tanks hold heat for a long time. So I am predicting that this
will provide all the hot water I will need. I will basically turn off my hot
water heater and will be able to turn it on only as needed. FYI - I've
noticed that I am happy with shower water being about 102 degrees.

On Aug 5, 6:39*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

I would suggest that you will need a tempering tank up there, and
for that I would suggest you may also require some structural re-
enforcement to make it safe. Only the water in the attic would be
heated and it would need to sit in the pipes for some time to actually
warm up. Even then you would not be absorbing much heat.

Frankly I doubt if it would be worth the bother, cost and risks
involved, even assuming there would be some reduction to the amount of
heat going into the home in the summer reducing the cooling expense.

How about ground thermal? Do they have that option?

On Aug 5, 5:39*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

If they were putting in as many energy saving things as they could
they wouldnt need the utility co, it would be solar.

don't forget the consider the weight . when you're hanging it and what not.

s


"Bill" wrote in message
...
I am working on doing this myself. I will use CPVC which can stand the
heat. I've placed a remote thermometer in my attic and it gets to be 125
degrees on a day when it is in the 80's outside.

I am going to run say 2" CPVC back and forth in the attic the entire
length of the house. With larger pipe, the water will flow more slowly and
have a longer period to heat-up.

Then I am going to get a solar water heater circulation pump, controller,
and electric solar panel to power it. This will circulate the water into
my hot water heater, but it will sense the temperature of the water from
the attic as well as in the tank and only circulate the water when the
attic water is warmer.

The reason I am using CPVC is I will have to drain the pipes before the
1st freeze and I don' want any rust. So plastic.

Also I will need to run the pipes so all the water can drain out. And I
will need to install an air escape to get the air out when filling the
pipes in the spring.

So basically the pipes will run back and forth attached to the underside
of the rafters and going higher and higher with a gentle slope (for
draining). Then air release pipe at the top.

And valves for all this to by-pass in winter, drain, and let air escape.

Also CPVC will expand with heat, so need plastic fasteners which allow the
pipe to move back and forth.

Water heater tanks hold heat for a long time. So I am predicting that this
will provide all the hot water I will need. I will basically turn off my
hot water heater and will be able to turn it on only as needed. FYI - I've
noticed that I am happy with shower water being about 102 degrees.

On Aug 6, 8:15*am, "dadiOH" wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof
space.
Does this have possibilities?

If you listen to the caveats from others and use enough pipe, yes, it is
certainly possible. *Cost effective is something else...

They'd need roughly 100' of 1/2" pipe to hold a gallon of water; however,
the pipe need not be in a straight run, it could be in a series of loops
like the cooling fins on a radiator.

It would be most effective if there were some sort of recirculating system
...a pump that activates when the resevoir temperature is "x" degrees below
ambient attic temperature.

Would it be worth it? *Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000. *If there
were a recirculating system they'd need a tank and pump but less tubing.
Would the cost to run the pump be less than the cost to just heat the water
in a tank? *No idea but I kinda doubt it.

ok, here's my idea; a recycled kiddy wading pool in the attic, fed
from the water piping by an old toilet float valve, feeding the hot
water tank by gravity feed. maybe cover it with styrofoam peanuts to
reduce evaporation. all scavenged for free.

On Aug 5, 8:39*pm, "Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

What is the reference to HOA rules?

Do you mean in this day and age with energy prices rising, oil at over
$100 per barrel, gasoline at at $3 to $5 US per gallon, water
shortages (which will influence the costs of hydro generated
electricity etc.) and other problems there is a rule which says 'Don't
use solar panels' ???????
Make about as much sense as using cedar shingles or thatching on a
roof in fire prone California, doesn't it?

Been raining for several days here; so reluctantly drying clothes in
the dryer, instead of hanging them out on the line. Gather even that
is not allowed in some places!

BTW was reading recently about some ergonomically designed homes in
Germany that while they are connected to the electricity grid to meet
peak moments of demand are, on average, making and returning more
electricity to the grid than they use! This helps defray the cost of
solar panels and the equipment to convert the electrcity thus produced
to 'mains type' electrical current.

Those homes (Freyburg I think was mentioned) are in area where the
government has legislated that electric utilities 'must' receive back
and pay the householder for electric energy returned or fed into the
grid. Way to go, eh? A negative power bill! With the electric meter
running backwards!

My grown up son has been looking at building a smaller home, people
get married much later and have much smaller families now. We feel by
hanging onto enough land we can use a ground loop heat pump system. If
we could generate in this 'not very sunny' climate some of the
electricity to run the heat pump system that would be great as well!

Hoping the cost of solar panels which on our existing roof would be
just about invisible from the road will come down greatly. Guess they
wouldn't work well with some inches of snow on them though!

Sure, they could get lots of heat from the attic. Around here hot water
heating costs about $200 a year for a big house and they may save half
that. Done at the time of construction the system additions might cost
from $1000 to $1500 so the payback is more than 10 years, maybe 20
years. Not great but not bad and it is a green approach.

Use polyethylene (PE) tubing which can stand being frozen without
bursting in case they get one of those every 10 year cold days. Never
have to drain it. PE pipe is very leakproof IF it is heat welded so it
must be installed by someone who knows how to do it properly. There are
mechanical fastners for PE but it is a very slippery material compared
to other plumbing pipe and mechanical connections should not be trusted
for this application. If all joints are professionally heat welded and
pass a pressure test then it is better than any other system.

Use about 100 feet of 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch tubing. Have it air pressure
tested before turning on the water - standard plumbing practice.
Insulate all the hot water system lines that are not in the attic, even
the ones not in the circulating loop. Pipe insulation should be minimum
1/2 inch - thicker adds a bit of benefit but not much so only get it if
it is readily available. Don't insulate the attic pipes since they are
supposed to transfer energy as efficiently as possible. Make the runs as
long as possible with a minimum of bends.


Use a Grundfos UP-10 circulating pump like I have in my house for
circulating the hot water. It is a 25 watt pump with a thermostat and a
timer - maybe $2/month to run. Dead quiet. You set the thermostat to
shut off if the returning water reaches a certain temperature to prevent
running while the water heater is heating and also prevent over-heating.
Maybe set the timer to only run during the day so you aren't cooling off
the water at night. Summer temps may be such that there would be
benefits to running at night - bound to be warmer in the attic than in
the ground. Timer is simple to set.

This pump, and most circulating pumps, won't make enough pressure to
lift water from a basement to a roof. It doesn't have to since you
install it inline with the house pressure system. It pumps from the
storage tank and back into the storage tank. So it only adds enough
energy to this loop to make it flow in a circle. It can be located
anywhere as long as it draws from the bottom of the tank and returns to
the top of the tank. Bottom connection will likely need a special
fitting so it can function as both a drain and a loop connection. Mine
has a tee with a tap at the bottom. There has to be a valve at the top
of the loop to allow air out while the loop is filled. You open this
valve while filling the house hot water system for the first time. The
house pressure will flow up both sides of the loop and purge the air.
Run a hose from this valve to a drain so it can be opened and water run
out for a good long while to ensure all air is purged. Don't use any
check valves in the loop - run out from and back into the storage tank
so no check valves needed. Use only a high quality bronze valve -
plastic won't do. Special adaptors are required to install a valve in a
PE system.

Must add a storage tank before the main tank, without electrodes. Only
the storage tank should be in the circulating system loop to the attic.
The main tank has a permanent hot water layer near the top which would
defeat the idea because this water would get cooled not heated. Storage
tank also increases the amount of hot water kept on hand.

Cold water in the attic would create a condensation problem with water
dripping off the pipes before it gets heated and perhaps on cool days or
at night. Plastic half-pipe drainage system would solve this. A solvent
glued PVC collector system would not leak. Drain pipes must be at least
an inch below the PE pipes - can't be touching or condensation occurs on
the outside of that pipe and defeats the purpose. Use spacers to hold
the circulating pipe about an inch or two above the drain pipe. Slope
all the drain pipes so they drain towards an exit point - just make one
end of the lengthwise runs lower than the other by 6 to 12 inches. Make
sure the valve is within the drain pipe so any slow leakage would just
drain away.

Inspect the loop every few months so any leakage is spotted before it
becomes serious. With a proper installation it should be

Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.

Perce


They should consider on demand, at the place of need, tankLESS water heaters.
A bit pricey at purchase but quickly pay for themselves with the savings in
water and energy. There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of water hot
all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.

--
909090...J

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1

On Aug 6, 10:22�am, "Bill" wrote:
I am working on doing this myself. I will use CPVC which can stand the heat.
I've placed a remote thermometer in my attic and it gets to be 125 degrees
on a day when it is in the 80's outside.

I am going to run say 2" CPVC back and forth in the attic the entire length
of the house. With larger pipe, the water will flow more slowly and have a
longer period to heat-up.

Then I am going to get a solar water heater circulation pump, controller,
and electric solar panel to power it. This will circulate the water into my
hot water heater, but it will sense the temperature of the water from the
attic as well as in the tank and only circulate the water when the attic
water is warmer.

The reason I am using CPVC is I will have to drain the pipes before the 1st
freeze and I don' want any rust. So plastic.

Also I will need to run the pipes so all the water can drain out. And I will
need to install an air escape to get the air out when filling the pipes in
the spring.

So basically the pipes will run back and forth attached to the underside of
the rafters and going higher and higher with a gentle slope (for draining).
Then air release pipe at the top.

And valves for all this to by-pass in winter, drain, and let air escape.

Also CPVC will expand with heat, so need plastic fasteners which allow the
pipe to move back and forth.

Water heater tanks hold heat for a long time. So I am predicting that this
will provide all the hot water I will need. I will basically turn off my hot
water heater and will be able to turn it on only as needed. FYI - I've
noticed that I am happy with shower water being about 102 degrees.

might consider PEX with basically no joints, little chance for leaks,
easy to install, just spool out.

add disconnect so you can blow compressed air thru lines each winter
before freezing, no sloping of lines necessary, plus PEX is basically
freeze proof.

On Aug 6, 4:53�pm, "Phulltillt via HomeKB.com" u24330@uwe wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.

Perce

They should consider on demand, at the place of need, tankLESS water heaters.
A bit pricey at purchase but quickly pay for themselves with the savings in
water and energy. �There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of water hot
all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.

--
909090...J

Message posted via HomeKB.comhttp://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1

remember theres lots of downsides to tankless. just look at other
threads on that subject.

Not unless you like it hot. PHUCCK a bunch of tankle$$ junk.

s



"Phulltillt via HomeKB.com" u24330@uwe wrote in message
news:88480b9c55c87@uwe...
There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of water hot
all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.

--
909090...J

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1

Hell, really for the application, it could be left coiled up.


s


wrote in message
...

might consider PEX with basically no joints, little chance for leaks,
easy to install, just spool out.

add disconnect so you can blow compressed air thru lines each winter
before freezing, no sloping of lines necessary, plus PEX is basically
freeze proof.

On Aug 6, 6:50�pm, "Steve Barker DLT"
wrote:
Hell, really for the application, it could be left coiled up.


yep way less work, no joints to leak, and check home depot, PEX is
dirt cheap

wrote in message

Would it be worth it? ?Well, 2500 feet of refrigeration style 1/2" copper
tubing - enough for 25 gallons - would cost better than $6,000.
dadiOH
____________________________



USE PEX, its cheap!

Cheap, but has poor heat transfer properties compared to copper.

On Aug 6, 6:49*pm, "Steve Barker DLT"
wrote:
Not unless you like it hot. *PHUCCK a bunch of tankle$$ junk.

s

"Phulltillt via HomeKB.com" u24330@uwe wrote in messagenews:88480b9c55c87@uwe...
*There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of water hot



all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.

This is a good example of the false benefits generally attributed to
the miracle tankless. Unless you have multiple tankless close to
every point of use, which greatly increases the cost and complexity,
you actually have a LONGER wait for hot water with a single whole
house tankless. The water still comes from the same place and you
have the slight additional delay for the tankless to sense the water
usage and fire up.






--
909090...J

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 7, 9:08�am, Blattus Slafaly
wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

Does this have possibilities?

Perce

You're better off with point of use electric demand water heaters. They
are only$150 and only run when you actually use the hot water. One under
the kitchen sink and one under the bathroom sink and shower. Will work
fine in the shower if you are not a water hog and use super saver shower
head with reduction valve. Not recommended for tub or spa bathers or
other water wasting devices. As far as preheating you can put a large
cold water holding tank in your furnace room or in a closet in the
living area. That will keep your water at room temperature.

--
Blattus Slafaly �? 3 � � �7/8

those 150 b uck point of use with a shower? you must be joking, at
most hand washing.

wrote:
On Aug 6, 4:53�pm, "Phulltillt via HomeKB.com" u24330@uwe wrote:
Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features
as
possible.

Perce

They should consider on demand, at the place of need, tankLESS
water
heaters.
A bit pricey at purchase but quickly pay for themselves with the
savings in
water and energy. �There is no need to keep 30 or more gallons of
water hot
all the time or run the water until it's warm at the faucet.

--
909090...J

Message posted via
HomeKB.comhttp://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200808/1

remember theres lots of downsides to tankless. just look at other
threads on that subject.

Most of which consist of you saying "does so" and everybody else
saying "you're full of it".

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)