wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.

Does this have possibilities?

You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.

A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.

Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.

In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T
1/384 | ---
------www-------|--|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-

One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.

Nick

wrote:
wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.

Does this have possibilities?

You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.

A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.

Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.

In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T
1/384 | ---
------www-------|--|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-

One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.

Nick

When I blew the hot air out of attic (Georgia....dark
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....

hope helps...have fun....sno


hope helps...have fun.....sno

On Aug 9, 5:55*pm, sno wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible..
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.

I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.

Does this have possibilities?

You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.

A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.

Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.

In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19..2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
* * * * * * * *T * * *
* * * * 1/384 *| * *---
* *------www-------|--|---|
* | * * * * * * * * ---
* | 125 F * * * * * *I
*---
* -
* |
* |
* -

One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.

Nick

When I blew the hot air out of attic (Georgia....dark
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....

hope helps...have fun....sno

hope helps...have fun.....sno- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Attic air can be full of all kinds of nasties. Lots of dust, insect
and animal excrement....


Jimmie

JIMMIE wrote:
On Aug 9, 5:55 pm, sno wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.
Does this have possibilities?
You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.
A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.
Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.
In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T
1/384 | ---
------www-------|--|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-
One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.
Nick
When I blew the hot air out of attic (Georgia....dark
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....

hope helps...have fun....sno

hope helps...have fun.....sno- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Attic air can be full of all kinds of nasties. Lots of dust, insect
and animal excrement....


Jimmie

Jim...you are right...every year when I first turned fan on dust and
other things blew all over.....wife complained like crazy....if did it
again would use fan with filter....

have fun....sno

JIMMIE wrote:
On Aug 9, 5:55 pm, sno wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.
Does this have possibilities?
You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.
A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.
Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.
In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T
1/384 | ---
------www-------|--|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-
One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.
Nick
When I blew the hot air out of attic (Georgia....dark
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....

hope helps...have fun....sno

hope helps...have fun.....sno- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Attic air can be full of all kinds of nasties. Lots of dust, insect
and animal excrement....


Jimmie

Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida and had very
hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway and before they installed
it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After the asphalt was put down and cured,
I found that I had plenty of very hot water. Since the water heater tank was
just inside the garage, it was easy to get the water back into the tank.

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
JIMMIE wrote:
On Aug 9, 5:55 pm, sno wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.
Does this have possibilities?
You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car
radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a
winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.
A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.
Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other
states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2
with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.
In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 =
19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384
Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T 1/384 | ---
------www-------|--|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-
One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512
ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.
Nick
When I blew the hot air out of attic (Georgia....dark
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....

hope helps...have fun....sno

hope helps...have fun.....sno- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Attic air can be full of all kinds of nasties. Lots of dust, insect
and animal excrement....


Jimmie

Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida and
had very hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway and before
they installed it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After the asphalt was
put down and cured, I found that I had plenty of very hot water. Since the
water heater tank was just inside the garage, it was easy to get the water
back into the tank.

I hope the copper pipe was protected. Plastic pipe would be better, all in
one large coil.

Chuck wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:

Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida
and had very hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway
and before they installed it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After
the asphalt was put down and cured, I found that I had plenty of very
hot water. Since the water heater tank was just inside the garage, it
was easy to get the water back into the tank.

Heh! That's a great idea. Sort of a poor man's geothermal power station.

HeyBub wrote:
Chuck wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:

Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida
and had very hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway
and before they installed it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After
the asphalt was put down and cured, I found that I had plenty of very
hot water. Since the water heater tank was just inside the garage, it
was easy to get the water back into the tank.

Heh! That's a great idea. Sort of a poor man's geothermal power station.


Cute idea, but up north here in frost heave country, those copper pipes
wouldn't make it through one winter. PEX, maybe. And you'd have to fill
with antifreeze and use a heat exchanger setup, to keep them from
freezing solid, unless you put them so deep that it was residual ground
heat you were sucking instead of solar.

When I lived in southern Indiana, with abandoned water-filled limestone
quarries all over the place, I had a dream of buying one, and dropping a
heat exchanger on the bottom to get free cooling for a/c. Of course, I
was a broke student at the time, so it stayed in the dream stage.

--
aem sends...
--
aem sends...

On Aug 9, 7:18 pm, Chuck wrote:
JIMMIE wrote:
On Aug 9, 5:55 pm, sno wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:
My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a custom
home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as possible.
Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about exterior
appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but they were
wondering about simply running water pipes through the roof space.
I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.
Does this have possibilities?
You might get 5 Btu/h-F per $2 foot of fin-tube, vs 1000 for a car radiator,
which might also circulate some warm attic air through the house on a winter
day, with a couple of motorized dampers.
A newer home should have a well ventilated attic, building codes call
for attic no more than 15 degrees warmer than outside air temp.
Which code? Section R806.2 (Roof Ventilation--minimum area) of the 2006
International Residential Code (used in PA, NJ, and lots of other states)
says an attic can have 1/300 of its floor area as ventilation if upper
vents have 80% of that and vents at least 3' below them have 20%. So my
24'x32' attic might have a total vent area of 24x32/300 = 2.56 ft^2 with
0.512 ft^2 of low vents.
In full sun on a still day the roof might absorb about 24x32x250 = 19.2K
Btu/h of sun and lose heat to outdoor air with a 24x32xU.5 = 384 Btu/h-F
thermal conductance, with an equivalent circuit like this, viewed in
a fixed font:
T
1/384 | ---
------www-------|--|---|
| ---
| 125 F I
---
-
|
|
-
One empirical chimney formula says I = 16.6Asqrt(H)T^1.5. A = 0.512 ft^2
and H = 3' make I = 14.72T^1.5, which makes T = 0.0383(3261-T^1.5).
T = 91 F on the right makes T = 91.7 on the left. Repeating makes
T = 91.3, so the air in an IRC-code attic could be 91 degrees
warmer than outdoor air.
Nick
When I blew the hot air out of attic (Georgia....dark
green roof) on any kind of clear day could get a 20 degree rise in
house above outside.....on a bright day could easily get 90 degree
inside no matter what outside temp...had a differential thermostat
that turned on box fan when attic temp rose above inside temp...
usually turned on around 0900 and turned off around 1800....and
could usually coast all night with morning temp in low 60's....

hope helps...have fun....sno

hope helps...have fun.....sno- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Attic air can be full of all kinds of nasties. Lots of dust, insect
and animal excrement....

Jimmie

Why don't you bury the pipes in the driveway? I did this in Florida and had very
hot water all the time. I had a black asphalt driveway and before they installed
it, I buried copper pipe in the sand. After the asphalt was put down and cured,
I found that I had plenty of very hot water. Since the water heater tank was
just inside the garage, it was easy to get the water back into the tank.

That reminds me of a funny story I guy once told me. He had lived for
a while in a trailer park in southern Arizona. The service lines to
the trailers were only buried about 6 inches deep, in ground that
baked in the sun all day, so the water supply that came into the
trailer was HOT. This was a problem in that you could not take a
shower without getting scalded -- no cold water to blend in with the
hot. Finally his neighbors clued him in -- the solution was to turn
off your water heater. Then the water in it would cool down to your
air-conditioned indoor temperature and be your cold water supply. -- H

wrote:
wrote:

"Percival P. Cassidy" wrote:

My brother-in-law and his wife are planning to retire and build a
custom home with as many energy-saving and eco-friendly features as
possible. Since they're likely to be stuck with HOA rules about
exterior appearance, solar panels on the roof are probably out, but
they were wondering about simply running water pipes through the
roof space.

I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent. It seems to me there's a federal law
that prohibits HOAs from outlawing this form of renewable energy.


When I read the subject I had to laugh. No one around here would
contemplate the idea. Something about sub-zero temperatures for a couple of
month a year...

But I suppose if freezing is never a concern (even Florida gets an
occasional frost), then go for it.

daestrom

There is something disturbing about making something that gives you an incentive
to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to make your attic
ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency of the water heating system.
That is like a government basing its budget on having a tax on prostitution.

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

daestrom wrote:

I'd put a $35 used car radiator with its 12 V fans under the ridge and
make the south roof transparent...

When I read the subject I had to laugh. No one around here would
contemplate the idea...

You might try a few numbers for a draindown system like this
in your neck of the woods...

Nick

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:02 GMT
[email protected] (Robert Scott) wrote:

There is something disturbing about making something that gives you an
incentive to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to make
your attic ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency of the
water heating system.

Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
using it as a heat trap.

That is like a government basing its budget on
having a tax on prostitution.

Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments income
though.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 06:40:02 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
wrote:

Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
using it as a heat trap.


It encourages the formation of ice dams in the winter, which causes snow melt to
back up under the shingles and leak into the decking, which rots the decking and
rafters, leading to premature roof failure.

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:02 GMT
[email protected] (Robert Scott) wrote:

There is something disturbing about making something that gives you
an incentive to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to
make your attic ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency
of the water heating system.

Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
using it as a heat trap.

Well, for one thing heat is the enemy of shingles--if you don't have
proper ventilation and are in a hot climate they'll very likely fail
prematurely.

Then there's elimination of moisture--without adequate ventilation you
can get enough moisture buildup in the attic to result in mold on the
structure, and where there is mold there is shortly after rot.

Then there are ice dams in winter.

There's a reason that every new roof that goes on in most of the US
has a ridge vent, and the reason is not that it looks snarfy or makes
big profits for the roofer.

That is like a government basing its budget on
having a tax on prostitution.

Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments
income though.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:04:54 -0400
"J. Clarke" wrote:

Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:02 GMT
[email protected] (Robert Scott) wrote:

There is something disturbing about making something that gives you
an incentive to continue to have poor attic ventilation, or even to
make your attic ventilation worse in order to raise the efficiency
of the water heating system.

Why ? What's so good about ventilating an attic rather than
using it as a heat trap.

Well, for one thing heat is the enemy of shingles--if you don't have
proper ventilation and are in a hot climate they'll very likely fail
prematurely.

Hmm good point - I'm too used to slate.

Then there's elimination of moisture--without adequate ventilation you
can get enough moisture buildup in the attic to result in mold on the
structure, and where there is mold there is shortly after rot.

Not seen that happen in unventilated lofts but it makes sense.

Then there are ice dams in winter.

Also too used to mild winters where below freezing is rare.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:54:03 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
wrote:

Then there are ice dams in winter.

Also too used to mild winters where below freezing is rare.

OK, for people in your type of climate, the reason against using the attic to
pre-heat domestic water is to limit air-conditioning costs. The money you save
on hot water by using the attic to pre-heat it is more than cancelled out by the
extra money you spend on AC, as compared to what you could have saved by
passively venting your attic.


Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:15:13 GMT
[email protected] (Robert Scott) wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:54:03 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
wrote:

Then there are ice dams in winter.

Also too used to mild winters where below freezing is rare.

OK, for people in your type of climate, the reason against using the
attic to pre-heat domestic water is to limit air-conditioning costs. The

It might be if air conditioning were common here - which it isn't.
Round here the temperature gets below 0 C or above 25 C maybe two or three
times a year - almost a perfect climate, apart from the rain.

money you save on hot water by using the attic to pre-heat it is more
than cancelled out by the extra money you spend on AC, as compared to
what you could have saved by passively venting your attic.

What we do in these parts usually is put insulation in the loft so
as to thermally isolate it from the house. In summer it gets hot up there
and in winter it gets cold (range perhaps 5-40 C).

It does strike me that it may well be reasonable to use the loft as
a solar collector here.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

It was in Storey County, Nevada until the feds shut down Joe Conforte's
Mustang Ranch a few years ago.

Don


Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments income
though.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the
sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:16:54 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
wrote:

It does strike me that it may well be reasonable to use the loft as
a solar collector here.

Where is "here" exactly?

OK, so if ice dams and air conditioning costs are not an issue with you, then
look at the cost/benefit ratio. You can't run potable water directly through an
automotive radiator, so you are probably stuck with a large number of home
heating-type fin tubes. Without active air circulation, they are going to be
very inefficient, so you will need lots and lots of them just to erase maybe 1/4
of your domestic water heating bill. What do you pay now for water heating?
$15 a month? So you might save $4 a month with your inside attic collector. If
the fin tubes plus installation cost you $1000, then you will just break even
after 20 years.

On the other hand, if you installed a real solar collector outside the roof, a
much smaller unit could deliver more heat, and it could deliver that heat
year-round, instead of just in the summer, as with your in-attic collector.
Most of the heat the falls on your roof gets conducted away by the wind. What
remains has to travel through the insulating properties of the wood sheathing.
Then it has to transfer to air without the benefit of active circulation, then
it has to transfer again into your "collector". A collector on the roof
prevents much of the wind-conducted losses and avoids two air-to-solid heat
transfers. About the only benefit to the inside collector, as was pointed out
by earlier posters in this thread, would be to disguise the collector for
appearance sake.


Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

RVer Don wrote:
It was in Storey County, Nevada until the feds shut down Joe
Conforte's Mustang Ranch a few years ago.

It still is in Storey County, Nevada. In fact the branch of the Feds
that shut it down was the IRS and the charge was tax evasion and the
IRS continued to run it for a while. There was even a "60 minutes"
story on it while it was being run by the IRS (I suspect that the
embarrassment of finding that the US government was running a bordello
had something to do with its being shut down).

And Mustang Ranch is back in operation under new ownership--the land
it was on belongs to the Bureau of Land Management now so the new
owners moved the buildings about 5 miles down the road.

Everywhere prostitution is legal it is taxed just like any other
income. I don't think it's a substantial part of any governments
income though.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror
Arrays The computer obeys and wins. | A better way
to
focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available
see |
http://www.sohara.org/

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:46:46 GMT
[email protected] (Robert Scott) wrote:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:16:54 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith
wrote:

It does strike me that it may well be reasonable to use the loft
as
a solar collector here.

Where is "here" exactly?

Western Ireland.

OK, so if ice dams and air conditioning costs are not an issue with you,
then look at the cost/benefit ratio. You can't run potable water
directly through an automotive radiator, so you are probably stuck with a
large number of home heating-type fin tubes.

Or a heat exchanger between water running through a car radiator
and potable water, perhaps a second coil in the tank.

On the other hand, if you installed a real solar collector outside the
roof, a much smaller unit could deliver more heat, and it could deliver
that heat year-round, instead of just in the summer, as with your
in-attic collector.

I was wondering about cheaply glazing the roof.

Most of the heat the falls on your roof gets
conducted away by the wind. What remains has to travel through the
insulating properties of the wood sheathing.

What wood sheathing ? Roofs round here are tiles on felt on wood
frame.

Then it has to transfer to
air without the benefit of active circulation, then it has to transfer
again into your "collector". A collector on the roof prevents much of
the wind-conducted losses and avoids two air-to-solid heat transfers.
About the only benefit to the inside collector, as was pointed out by
earlier posters in this thread, would be to disguise the collector for
appearance sake.

It may well not work out as feasible - but it's an interesting
possibility to explore a bit.

--
C:WIN | Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins. | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects. | licences available see
| http://www.sohara.org/

One issue, if you live in high humidity areas is that you may get condensation
which could cause all sorts of damage.

On Sep 21, 10:43*pm, "Bob F" wrote:
One issue, if you live in high humidity areas is that you may get condensation
which could cause all sorts of damage.

I live in Fl. I had my home replumbed a few yrs ago and the pipes are
in the attic. They wrapped the "cold" water pipe with foam rubber in
case of condensation.

I have to wait FOREVER to get cold water to flow, because the water
sitting in that "cold" water plastic pipe (I assume it's PEX) even
with the foam wrapped around it heats up and gets VERY hot.

I would NEVER purposely plumb a home like that. Hell, I can't even
wash clothes with cold water!

Ron wrote:
On Sep 21, 10:43 pm, "Bob F" wrote:
One issue, if you live in high humidity areas is that you may get condensation
which could cause all sorts of damage.

I live in Fl. I had my home replumbed a few yrs ago and the pipes are
in the attic. They wrapped the "cold" water pipe with foam rubber in
case of condensation.

I have to wait FOREVER to get cold water to flow, because the water
sitting in that "cold" water plastic pipe (I assume it's PEX) even
with the foam wrapped around it heats up and gets VERY hot.

I would NEVER purposely plumb a home like that. Hell, I can't even
wash clothes with cold water!





Geeze. I am also in Fl and the water from the underground pipe is close
to 80 in the summer.

Lou

Hello,
If do you have any problem which is related to home renovation so think
happy without any stress because there are many relatives home constructors
and builders who is provide a good service
you should contact them.
Thanks

On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:21:33 -0700 (PDT), Ron wrote:

I live in Fl. I had my home replumbed a few yrs ago and the pipes are
in the attic. They wrapped the "cold" water pipe with foam rubber in
case of condensation.

I have to wait FOREVER to get cold water to flow, because the water
sitting in that "cold" water plastic pipe (I assume it's PEX) even
with the foam wrapped around it heats up and gets VERY hot.

No matter how much insulation is wrapped around a pipe, if the water sits long
enough it will acquire the same temperature as the attic air around it.

The purpose of the insulation was not to keep the water cold so that it would be
cold when you use it. It was, as you said, to protect against condensation
dripping from the pipes and ruining your ceiling.


Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

On Sep 26, 7:32*pm, [email protected] (Robert Scott) wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:21:33 -0700 (PDT), Ron wrote:
I live in Fl. I had my home replumbed a few yrs ago and the pipes are
in the attic. They wrapped the "cold" water pipe with foam rubber in
case of condensation.

I have to wait FOREVER to get cold water to flow, because the water
sitting in that "cold" water plastic pipe (I assume it's PEX) even
with the foam wrapped around it heats up and gets VERY hot.

No matter how much insulation is wrapped around a pipe, if the water sits long
enough it will acquire the same temperature as the attic air around it.

The purpose of the insulation was not to keep the water cold so that it would be
cold when you use it. * It was, as you said, to protect against condensation
dripping from the pipes and ruining your ceiling.

Robert Scott
Ypsilanti, Michigan

That's what I said.