4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:21:43 -0400, "someguy469"
wrote:

4 inches of agrogate

Separate the aggregate from subsoil with landscape cloth.
Power tamp the aggregate until it will give no more.

poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

In most cases I'd prefer pavers- but there are a few variables. Who
is doing the work? What is the frost heave probability? How long you
gonna live there?

Jim

pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better




On Aug 1, 2:27*pm, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:21:43 -0400, "someguy469"

wrote:
4 inches of agrogate

Separate the aggregate from subsoil with landscape cloth.
Power tamp the aggregate until it will give no more.

poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

In most cases I'd prefer pavers- but there are a few variables. *Who
is doing the work? *What is the frost heave probability? *How long you
gonna live there?

Jim

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better

Paver maintenance- 30 minutes once a year to kill/prevent weeds.
Concrete maintenance- probably need to seal once a year.

Paver repair- remove paver, replace.
Concrete repair- remove patio, replace.

I prefer the look of pavers over almost any concrete I've seen. There
are some great concrete jobs, but I doubt the OP is about to call one
of the artists who do those beautiful jobs.

I have seen functional DIY concrete work- but never beautiful. Pavers,
OTOH, lend themselves perfectly to 'learn on the job', DIY types.

Jim

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...


Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50
years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that
was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where
weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly
installed.

OTOH, I concrete would not be my first choice based on appearance. It's
dull and uninteresting looking, unless it's been done by a company who
specializes in patterned and stained concrete.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Friday, 08(VIII)/01(I)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Cats must wake their human up at 3 am
for breakfast.
-------------------------------------------

aemeijers wrote in news:JMQkk.143817$102.65314
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...

Chuckled when I once heard said, "There are two kinds of concrete - the
kind that's cracked and the kind that's gonna crack."

Red Green wrote:
aemeijers wrote in news:JMQkk.143817$102.65314
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?
Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...

Chuckled when I once heard said, "There are two kinds of concrete - the
kind that's cracked and the kind that's gonna crack."
IMHO, 'properly installed' includes troweled-in (not sawn in green
concrete) expansion joints. deep enough to control where cracks happen.
If it is at the bottom of a 3/4 V groove, who gives a rip about a
harline crack?

aem sends...

In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...


Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50
years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that
was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where
weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly
installed.


I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality.
The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry
shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt,
with no rebar.

OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete
patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete
freeway.

Smitty Two writes:

In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...


Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50
years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that
was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where
weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly
installed.


I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality.
The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry
shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt,
with no rebar.

OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete
patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete
freeway.

Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out
was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by
redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT,
then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and
about a 2 inch difference in height.

Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy.

The pavers are MUCH more attractive.

On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us...

Smitty Two writes:

In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in
your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or
improperly installed.

--
aem sends...


Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly
50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar
one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE
Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio
wasn't properly installed.


I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality.
The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry
shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt,
with no rebar.

OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete
patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete
freeway.

Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out
was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by
redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT,
then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and
about a 2 inch difference in height.

Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy.

The pavers are MUCH more attractive.


Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a
properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention
footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which
should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a
factor.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Saturday, 08(VIII)/02(II)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Don't start an argument with somebody
who has a microphone when you don't;
they'll make you look like chopped
liver. --Harlan Ellison, on hecklers
-------------------------------------------

Wayne Boatwright writes:

On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us...

Smitty Two writes:

In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in
your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or
improperly installed.

Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly
50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar
one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE
Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio
wasn't properly installed.


I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality.
The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry
shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt,
with no rebar.

OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete
patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete
freeway.

Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out
was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by
redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT,
then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and
about a 2 inch difference in height.

Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy.

The pavers are MUCH more attractive.

Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a
properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention
footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which
should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a
factor.

Footers on a slab?

Is that like a foundation type footer:

| |
| |
| |
-- --
| |
--------

Can't imagine one on a slab.

There was some gravel under the slabs but nothing like
what I put under the patio. (4 inches crushed rock,
2 inches of sand.)

On the other hand, our "soil" in central NJ is clay.
I've laid brick pathways directly on the clay and
the paths haven't moved at all in over 20 years.
The only brick paths I have that move are the ones on
sand.

I think the problem was that the concrete slabs weren't
joined to each other securely enough. It looked like
they'd driven spikes thru the redwood 2x4s and then
poured the cement. When the redwood rotted I could see
the spikes running into the cement.

Dan Espen wrote:
Wayne Boatwright writes:

On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us...

Smitty Two writes:

In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?
Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in
your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or
improperly installed.
Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly
50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar
one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE
Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio
wasn't properly installed.

I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality.
The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry
shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt,
with no rebar.

OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete
patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete
freeway.
Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out
was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by
redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT,
then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and
about a 2 inch difference in height.

Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy.

The pavers are MUCH more attractive.
Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a
properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention
footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which
should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a
factor.

Footers on a slab?

Is that like a foundation type footer:

| |
| |
| |
-- --
| |
--------

Can't imagine one on a slab.

There was some gravel under the slabs but nothing like
what I put under the patio. (4 inches crushed rock,
2 inches of sand.)

On the other hand, our "soil" in central NJ is clay.
I've laid brick pathways directly on the clay and
the paths haven't moved at all in over 20 years.
The only brick paths I have that move are the ones on
sand.

I think the problem was that the concrete slabs weren't
joined to each other securely enough. It looked like
they'd driven spikes thru the redwood 2x4s and then
poured the cement. When the redwood rotted I could see
the spikes running into the cement.

Again, I'm no expert, but the 'footers' on outdoor slabs I have seen
were part of the monolithic pour. Basically, a trench around the outside
of the slab, and maybe across the middle, with rebar as appropriate.
Subsurface prep is the key to keep outdoor slabs from heaving. Compacted
soil, a layer of the correct gravel, and give the water someplace to go,
both underneath and on top. Presumably, the more detailed DIY books (or
the US Army field construction manuals) spell all that out.

--
aem sends...

On Sat 02 Aug 2008 12:39:37p, Dan Espen told us...

Wayne Boatwright writes:

On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us...

Smitty Two writes:

In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote:

On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...

Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in
your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or
improperly installed.

Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was
nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a
similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This
was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if
the patio wasn't properly installed.


I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation
quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck,
was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured
on the dirt, with no rebar.

OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a
concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a
concrete freeway.

Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out
was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by
redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT, then
the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and about a
2 inch difference in height.

Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy.

The pavers are MUCH more attractive.

Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a
properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't
mention footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have
had), which should be included in any concrete patio installation where
weather is a factor.

Footers on a slab?

Is that like a foundation type footer:

| |
| |
| |
-- --
| |
--------

Can't imagine one on a slab.

There was some gravel under the slabs but nothing like
what I put under the patio. (4 inches crushed rock,
2 inches of sand.)

On the other hand, our "soil" in central NJ is clay.
I've laid brick pathways directly on the clay and
the paths haven't moved at all in over 20 years.
The only brick paths I have that move are the ones on
sand.

Individual bricks placed together are not at all like a 4' x 8' slab of
concrete.

I think the problem was that the concrete slabs weren't
joined to each other securely enough. It looked like
they'd driven spikes thru the redwood 2x4s and then
poured the cement. When the redwood rotted I could see
the spikes running into the cement.

Either an individual or grouping of 4" thick 4' x 8' slabs of concrete that
are set without footers is like a handful of croutons floating on a bed of
clay soup. Weather changes are a huge factor in most areas of the country,
especially in climates like NJ. Footers down below the frostline are the
only means of assuring there will be no movement. I have seen much larger
unsecured slabs of concrete either break or heave in even the first year of
service.

If you're anticipating reconstructing such a patio, or any type, for that
matter, you should do some solid research on construction techniques. The
method you're considering right now don't work.

Pavers, OTOH, if laid on a significantly deep bed of packed gravel or
decomposed granite should serve well.



--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Saturday, 08(VIII)/02(II)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Don't start an argument with somebody
who has a microphone when you don't;
they'll make you look like chopped
liver. --Harlan Ellison, on hecklers
-------------------------------------------

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes:

4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar
Expansion joints

Is this right?

Not even close.

I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete".

But more important, pavers are the way to go.
Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair.
If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your
lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly
installed.

--
aem sends...

Everyone is correct. From the OP writing in asking if 4" of "agrogate" was
proper, I would infer that he/she/it isn't really up to speed on concrete
and all its nuances, let alone contents.

There are lots of things to consider when choosing a patio/walkway, etc:

Motif, weather, drainage, availability of materials, skill, cost, what one
wants in the finished product, etc.

To each his own. For me, I'd do pavers. Concrete is dated, plain, dull,
not hip with the decorating crowd, and one can have lots of big problems
with concrete that will make it look like hell in a short time.

MHO, YMMV

Steve

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better

Paver maintenance- 30 minutes once a year to kill/prevent weeds.
Concrete maintenance- probably need to seal once a year.

Paver repair- remove paver, replace.
Concrete repair- remove patio, replace.


Seal concrete? Never

As for replacing that paver, make sure you have spares because they may not
be available in two or ten years.

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better

Paver maintenance- 30 minutes once a year to kill/prevent weeds.
Concrete maintenance- probably need to seal once a year.

Paver repair- remove paver, replace.
Concrete repair- remove patio, replace.

I prefer the look of pavers over almost any concrete I've seen. There
are some great concrete jobs, but I doubt the OP is about to call one
of the artists who do those beautiful jobs.

I have seen functional DIY concrete work- but never beautiful. Pavers,
OTOH, lend themselves perfectly to 'learn on the job', DIY types.

Jim

pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better

Paver maintenance- 30 minutes once a year to kill/prevent weeds.
Concrete maintenance- probably need to seal once a year.

Paver repair- remove paver, replace.
Concrete repair- remove patio, replace.

I prefer the look of pavers over almost any concrete I've seen. There
are some great concrete jobs, but I doubt the OP is about to call one
of the artists who do those beautiful jobs.

I have seen functional DIY concrete work- but never beautiful. Pavers,
OTOH, lend themselves perfectly to 'learn on the job', DIY types.

Jim

Landscape cloth just before the pavers will help to keep down the weeds.
There's RoundUp for everything else. And I think anyone with any artistic
ability at all, a tile saw, or at least a brick chisel and hammer, could
come up with a unique design so that when someone asked, "Wow, who did
that?", they could say proudly, "I did." This stuff isn't rocket surgery.
The hardest part is getting the sand in, compacted, and to grade. After
that, it's just put the bricks in place, and even with a pattern or cutting
some bricks(pavers/whatever), it don't have to be exact. If you can draw it
on graph paper, and know anything about a protractor, square, triangle, and
a mechanical pencil, you can make your own design and transfer it pretty
darn close onto the real field.

When I did wrought iron work, I'd tell the customer that the proper viewing
point was across the street. What the neighbor or passerby would see. Once
you back up a bit from any work, the flaws and mistakes blend in unless
they're just terrible.

Steve

On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:21:36 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote:

Landscape cloth just before the pavers will help to keep down the weeds.

I'm a big paver fan in terms of price and ease of installation DIY. I
just want to say that the landscape cloth does work, but it's only
good for maybe two years before the infernal pests work their way to
the surface. Be prepared to pulll them out after heavy rains,
carefully separating the pavers with an old flat-head screwdriver so
you can yank out the roots. The lazy way is to pour boiling water on
them, which really does work for a while (and costs a lot less in many
ways than RoundUp).