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Back Yard Patio
4 inches of agrogate
poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? |
Back Yard Patio
"someguy469" writes:
4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. |
Back Yard Patio
On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:21:43 -0400, "someguy469"
wrote: 4 inches of agrogate Separate the aggregate from subsoil with landscape cloth. Power tamp the aggregate until it will give no more. poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? In most cases I'd prefer pavers- but there are a few variables. Who is doing the work? What is the frost heave probability? How long you gonna live there? Jim |
Back Yard Patio
pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better
On Aug 1, 2:27*pm, Jim Elbrecht wrote: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:21:43 -0400, "someguy469" wrote: 4 inches of agrogate Separate the aggregate from subsoil with landscape cloth. Power tamp the aggregate until it will give no more. poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? In most cases I'd prefer pavers- but there are a few variables. *Who is doing the work? *What is the frost heave probability? *How long you gonna live there? Jim |
Back Yard Patio
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Back Yard Patio
Dan Espen wrote:
"someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... |
Back Yard Patio
On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us...
Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. OTOH, I concrete would not be my first choice based on appearance. It's dull and uninteresting looking, unless it's been done by a company who specializes in patterned and stained concrete. -- Wayne Boatwright ------------------------------------------- Friday, 08(VIII)/01(I)/08(MMVIII) ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Cats must wake their human up at 3 am for breakfast. ------------------------------------------- |
Back Yard Patio
aemeijers wrote in news:JMQkk.143817$102.65314
@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Chuckled when I once heard said, "There are two kinds of concrete - the kind that's cracked and the kind that's gonna crack." |
Back Yard Patio
Red Green wrote:
aemeijers wrote in news:JMQkk.143817$102.65314 @bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Chuckled when I once heard said, "There are two kinds of concrete - the kind that's cracked and the kind that's gonna crack." IMHO, 'properly installed' includes troweled-in (not sawn in green concrete) expansion joints. deep enough to control where cracks happen. If it is at the bottom of a 3/4 V groove, who gives a rip about a harline crack? aem sends... |
Back Yard Patio
In article ,
Wayne Boatwright wrote: On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt, with no rebar. OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete freeway. |
Back Yard Patio
Smitty Two writes:
In article , Wayne Boatwright wrote: On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt, with no rebar. OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete freeway. Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT, then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and about a 2 inch difference in height. Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy. The pavers are MUCH more attractive. |
Back Yard Patio
On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us...
Smitty Two writes: In article , Wayne Boatwright wrote: On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt, with no rebar. OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete freeway. Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT, then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and about a 2 inch difference in height. Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy. The pavers are MUCH more attractive. Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a factor. -- Wayne Boatwright ------------------------------------------- Saturday, 08(VIII)/02(II)/08(MMVIII) ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Don't start an argument with somebody who has a microphone when you don't; they'll make you look like chopped liver. --Harlan Ellison, on hecklers ------------------------------------------- |
Back Yard Patio
Wayne Boatwright writes:
On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us... Smitty Two writes: In article , Wayne Boatwright wrote: On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt, with no rebar. OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete freeway. Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT, then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and about a 2 inch difference in height. Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy. The pavers are MUCH more attractive. Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a factor. Footers on a slab? Is that like a foundation type footer: | | | | | | -- -- | | -------- Can't imagine one on a slab. There was some gravel under the slabs but nothing like what I put under the patio. (4 inches crushed rock, 2 inches of sand.) On the other hand, our "soil" in central NJ is clay. I've laid brick pathways directly on the clay and the paths haven't moved at all in over 20 years. The only brick paths I have that move are the ones on sand. I think the problem was that the concrete slabs weren't joined to each other securely enough. It looked like they'd driven spikes thru the redwood 2x4s and then poured the cement. When the redwood rotted I could see the spikes running into the cement. |
Back Yard Patio
Dan Espen wrote:
Wayne Boatwright writes: On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us... Smitty Two writes: In article , Wayne Boatwright wrote: On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt, with no rebar. OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete freeway. Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT, then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and about a 2 inch difference in height. Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy. The pavers are MUCH more attractive. Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a factor. Footers on a slab? Is that like a foundation type footer: | | | | | | -- -- | | -------- Can't imagine one on a slab. There was some gravel under the slabs but nothing like what I put under the patio. (4 inches crushed rock, 2 inches of sand.) On the other hand, our "soil" in central NJ is clay. I've laid brick pathways directly on the clay and the paths haven't moved at all in over 20 years. The only brick paths I have that move are the ones on sand. I think the problem was that the concrete slabs weren't joined to each other securely enough. It looked like they'd driven spikes thru the redwood 2x4s and then poured the cement. When the redwood rotted I could see the spikes running into the cement. Again, I'm no expert, but the 'footers' on outdoor slabs I have seen were part of the monolithic pour. Basically, a trench around the outside of the slab, and maybe across the middle, with rebar as appropriate. Subsurface prep is the key to keep outdoor slabs from heaving. Compacted soil, a layer of the correct gravel, and give the water someplace to go, both underneath and on top. Presumably, the more detailed DIY books (or the US Army field construction manuals) spell all that out. -- aem sends... |
Back Yard Patio
On Sat 02 Aug 2008 12:39:37p, Dan Espen told us...
Wayne Boatwright writes: On Sat 02 Aug 2008 11:01:20a, Dan Espen told us... Smitty Two writes: In article , Wayne Boatwright wrote: On Fri 01 Aug 2008 08:46:49p, aemeijers told us... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. Very true. My parents had an extensive concrete patio that was nearly 50 years old and nary a crack or damage of any kind. I had a similar one that was over 20 years old in the same condition. This was in NE Ohio where weather certainly could have been a factor if the patio wasn't properly installed. I'll go along with you and aem, it depends on the installation quality. The concrete patio I tore up to replace with a wood deck, was in sorry shape. Turned out it was barely two inches thick, poured on the dirt, with no rebar. OTOH, I just looked at a house for sale, built in 1941, with a concrete patio that had not a single crack. Probably built like a concrete freeway. Well, anecdotes are not data, but the concrete patio I tore out was 9 4x8' slabs about 4 inches thick, with rebar separated by redwood 2x4s. First the redwood went, which I replaced with PT, then the slabs got so far out of level that there were puddles and about a 2 inch difference in height. Never again. The pavers can move but fixing them is easy. The pavers are MUCH more attractive. Pavers are obviously much more attractive. That's not to say that a properly designed and installed patio will always fail. You didn't mention footers being used with the slab (which each slab should have had), which should be included in any concrete patio installation where weather is a factor. Footers on a slab? Is that like a foundation type footer: | | | | | | -- -- | | -------- Can't imagine one on a slab. There was some gravel under the slabs but nothing like what I put under the patio. (4 inches crushed rock, 2 inches of sand.) On the other hand, our "soil" in central NJ is clay. I've laid brick pathways directly on the clay and the paths haven't moved at all in over 20 years. The only brick paths I have that move are the ones on sand. Individual bricks placed together are not at all like a 4' x 8' slab of concrete. I think the problem was that the concrete slabs weren't joined to each other securely enough. It looked like they'd driven spikes thru the redwood 2x4s and then poured the cement. When the redwood rotted I could see the spikes running into the cement. Either an individual or grouping of 4" thick 4' x 8' slabs of concrete that are set without footers is like a handful of croutons floating on a bed of clay soup. Weather changes are a huge factor in most areas of the country, especially in climates like NJ. Footers down below the frostline are the only means of assuring there will be no movement. I have seen much larger unsecured slabs of concrete either break or heave in even the first year of service. If you're anticipating reconstructing such a patio, or any type, for that matter, you should do some solid research on construction techniques. The method you're considering right now don't work. Pavers, OTOH, if laid on a significantly deep bed of packed gravel or decomposed granite should serve well. -- Wayne Boatwright ------------------------------------------- Saturday, 08(VIII)/02(II)/08(MMVIII) ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Don't start an argument with somebody who has a microphone when you don't; they'll make you look like chopped liver. --Harlan Ellison, on hecklers ------------------------------------------- |
Back Yard Patio
"aemeijers" wrote in message ... Dan Espen wrote: "someguy469" writes: 4 inches of agrogate poured conctete with rebar Expansion joints Is this right? Not even close. I think you mean "aggregate" and "concrete". But more important, pavers are the way to go. Concrete heaves, cracks, and is difficult to repair. If it is installed correctly, it never needs repair. (well, not in your lifetime, at least.) If it fails, it was underdesigned or improperly installed. -- aem sends... Everyone is correct. From the OP writing in asking if 4" of "agrogate" was proper, I would infer that he/she/it isn't really up to speed on concrete and all its nuances, let alone contents. There are lots of things to consider when choosing a patio/walkway, etc: Motif, weather, drainage, availability of materials, skill, cost, what one wants in the finished product, etc. To each his own. For me, I'd do pavers. Concrete is dated, plain, dull, not hip with the decorating crowd, and one can have lots of big problems with concrete that will make it look like hell in a short time. MHO, YMMV Steve |
Back Yard Patio
"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message ... On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT), wrote: pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better Paver maintenance- 30 minutes once a year to kill/prevent weeds. Concrete maintenance- probably need to seal once a year. Paver repair- remove paver, replace. Concrete repair- remove patio, replace. Seal concrete? Never As for replacing that paver, make sure you have spares because they may not be available in two or ten years. |
Back Yard Patio
pavers and the plants growing between them? Concrete is better Paver maintenance- 30 minutes once a year to kill/prevent weeds. Concrete maintenance- probably need to seal once a year. Paver repair- remove paver, replace. Concrete repair- remove patio, replace. I prefer the look of pavers over almost any concrete I've seen. There are some great concrete jobs, but I doubt the OP is about to call one of the artists who do those beautiful jobs. I have seen functional DIY concrete work- but never beautiful. Pavers, OTOH, lend themselves perfectly to 'learn on the job', DIY types. Jim Landscape cloth just before the pavers will help to keep down the weeds. There's RoundUp for everything else. And I think anyone with any artistic ability at all, a tile saw, or at least a brick chisel and hammer, could come up with a unique design so that when someone asked, "Wow, who did that?", they could say proudly, "I did." This stuff isn't rocket surgery. The hardest part is getting the sand in, compacted, and to grade. After that, it's just put the bricks in place, and even with a pattern or cutting some bricks(pavers/whatever), it don't have to be exact. If you can draw it on graph paper, and know anything about a protractor, square, triangle, and a mechanical pencil, you can make your own design and transfer it pretty darn close onto the real field. When I did wrought iron work, I'd tell the customer that the proper viewing point was across the street. What the neighbor or passerby would see. Once you back up a bit from any work, the flaws and mistakes blend in unless they're just terrible. Steve |
Back Yard Patio
On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:21:36 -0800, "SteveB" toquerville@zionvistas
wrote: Landscape cloth just before the pavers will help to keep down the weeds. I'm a big paver fan in terms of price and ease of installation DIY. I just want to say that the landscape cloth does work, but it's only good for maybe two years before the infernal pests work their way to the surface. Be prepared to pulll them out after heavy rains, carefully separating the pavers with an old flat-head screwdriver so you can yank out the roots. The lazy way is to pour boiling water on them, which really does work for a while (and costs a lot less in many ways than RoundUp). |
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