OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

call your codes officer and ask him if its legal
that will smarten up your electrician


"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to
take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but
that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to
the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry
it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and
I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

In article f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92, "Doobielicious" wrote:
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

[snip rest]

Yes, the electrician *is* dangerous. Very dangerous. There are at least two
serious safety hazards in what he did: First, by reversing hot and neutral,
he's instantly put every switch on that circuit on the neutral side instead of
on the hot side where it belongs. Second, whatever caused the short to ground
is still there; it's just connected to the neutral instead of the hot --
trouble is, the neutral carries current too, and so whatever's touching that
is providing an alternate path for that current to return to ground, possibly
through somebody.

Explain this to the general contractor, and demand a *different* electrician.
Don't allow the first one back on your property, not even to try to fix his
own screw-up -- no assurance that he's competent to do it right, and plenty of
evidence that he's not.

"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to
take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but
that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to
the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry
it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and
I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

For one thing, as of the 2005 NEC, all bedroom wiring should be AFCI
protected. That situation would trip an AFCI breaker. I would question the
electrical inspector regarding no AFCI protection, and certainly what the
electrician did is improper and potentially dangerous

"kzin" wrote in
:


On 9-Jun-2008, "Doobielicious" wrote:

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will
not get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed
properly and I am thinking about getting another electrician to make
the fix because I don't think I can trust this electrician.

If you have a general contractor why are you dealing with the
electrician? Just tell them you want it to pass inspection and let
them deal with it.

Technically, the electrician does not work for the homeowner. They work for
the GC. My belief anyway.

Doobielicious wrote:
....
Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to the
electrician when I question him on it. ...

If that is the case (and if reversing leads fixed the problem sounds as
if is good bet) a check of that circuit for continuity between the new
neutral and ground should show up that there is continuity (besides the
neutral bar at the the box). That wouldn't pass inspection if the
inspection is thorough enough.

Strange, however, that an electrical inspection wouldn't have been done
before the walls were closed up unless this is retrofit work area.

It is not an immediate safety hazard as in it'll burn the house down
tonight, but it's a circuit failure waiting to happen as well as the
improper connection between ground/neutral other than the box and that
there's almost certainly mechanical damage to the cable. Those should
not be left unattended.

--

First off, if the drywall people did screw into the wiring, it's
because your electrician either didn't use a nail plate where he
should have or didn't use a piggyback cable retainer when running more
than two pieces of Romex along a stud.

As for switching wires, it's easy enough to tell if the screw shorted
the black to ground. Simply disconnect the wires and do a continuity
test. Code requires the neutral to be a separate wire from the ground.
That way, if there's ever an open in the neutral, the ground can carry
the fault and prevent frying somebody. Right now, it doesn't seem like
that's what you've got.

I feel sorry for the electrician because he's going to have to run new
romex. But this stuff happens all the time and it's precisely why the
code requires nail plates over drilled-through studs and piggyback
cable retainers that center the cables on the stud to keep them away
from drywall screws.

Bottom line--He screwed up. He's going to have to fix it.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:44:43 GMT, "Doobielicious"
wrote:

OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

"dpb" wrote in message

Strange, however, that an electrical inspection wouldn't have been done
before the walls were closed up unless this is retrofit work area.


Usually two inspections are needed for new construction. One for the rough
while the walls are open, then the final. It may have passed the first as
there were no visible problems and this is why the require a second.

"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.


Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

If, in fact, that is the problem, it is not much different than the fact
that the neutral and ground still end up on the same bar in the panel. He
effectively just change the color of the wire.

The problems though, is that if lights are on that wire, the switch is no
longer breaking the hot, but breaking the neutral. Problem number two is
that you just don't know if the black is just hitting the ground. It may be
screwed through and into something else, such as a copper line that can
become the ground. The screw may have also broken or severely damaged the
black wire. I'd want the real problem found and fixed.

Well, that's the way it used to be. New main panels separate the
neutral bus from the grounding bus. The whole point is to keep the
neutral and ground lines separate in the event of an open
neutral--even from the main panel to the grounding rod or plumbing.


If, in fact, that is the problem, it is not much different than the fact
that the neutral and ground still end up on the same bar in the panel. He
effectively just change the color of the wire.

The problems though, is that if lights are on that wire, the switch is no
longer breaking the hot, but breaking the neutral. Problem number two is
that you just don't know if the black is just hitting the ground. It may be
screwed through and into something else, such as a copper line that can
become the ground. The screw may have also broken or severely damaged the
black wire. I'd want the real problem found and fixed.

In article , SteveB wrote:

"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to
take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but
that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to
the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry
it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and
I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

Point out your concerns to the inspector. He has the final word. Either
it's acceptable or it's not. Why all this tap dancing? If it fails, call
the GC and tell him it failed, and why, and to send a different electrician
to fix it. Maybe it will pass, and you're jousting with windmills.

Point this out to the inspector. I have a strong impression that making
switches end up in the grounded conductor and having any outlets get
hot-neutral reverses is against code.

Point this out to the inspector - I have heard of inspectors not looking
at everything.

- Don Klipstein )

"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to
take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but
that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to
the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry
it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and
I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

Point out your concerns to the inspector. He has the final word. Either
it's acceptable or it's not. Why all this tap dancing? If it fails, call
the GC and tell him it failed, and why, and to send a different electrician
to fix it. Maybe it will pass, and you're jousting with windmills.

Steve

In article , Rick-Meister wrote:
Well, that's the way it used to be. New main panels separate the
neutral bus from the grounding bus. The whole point is to keep the
neutral and ground lines separate in the event of an open
neutral--even from the main panel to the grounding rod or plumbing.

That isn't exactly new -- it's been that way for decades.

In article , "SteveB" wrote:

"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.
[snippo]
Point out your concerns to the inspector. He has the final word. Either
it's acceptable or it's not. Why all this tap dancing? If it fails, call
the GC and tell him it failed, and why, and to send a different electrician
to fix it. Maybe it will pass, and you're jousting with windmills.

If it passes, then the inspector isn't any more competent than the
electrician. There are multiple Code violations he
a) at least one place where the cable isn't adequately protected against nail
or screw penetration
b) damaged cable as a result of a)
c) neutral conductor now connected to something grounded as a result of b)
d) use of black wire for neutral
e) use of white wire for hot
f) hot and neutral reversed at EVERY receptacle on the circuit
g) EVERY switch on the circuit in the neutral conductor instead of the hot

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:44:43 GMT, "Doobielicious"
wrote:

OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
snip

You can label a wire on both ends using a tag or paint to make it
another color. In other words you can put black tape on both ends of
a white wire to use it as a hot wire. Any experienced electrician
should know what it takes to pass inspection. Personally, I don't
give a rat's ass about a government inspection, but I do care about
safety.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92, "Doobielicious"
wrote:
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

[snip rest]

Yes, the electrician *is* dangerous. Very dangerous. There are at least
two
serious safety hazards in what he did: First, by reversing hot and
neutral,
he's instantly put every switch on that circuit on the neutral side
instead of
on the hot side where it belongs. Second, whatever caused the short to
ground
is still there; it's just connected to the neutral instead of the hot --
trouble is, the neutral carries current too, and so whatever's touching
that
is providing an alternate path for that current to return to ground,
possibly
through somebody.

Explain this to the general contractor, and demand a *different*
electrician.
Don't allow the first one back on your property, not even to try to fix
his
own screw-up -- no assurance that he's competent to do it right, and
plenty of
evidence that he's not.


I agree. This must be fixed. However to find the problem holes may need to
be made in the drywall. The electrician should be able to narrow the
problem down a little by disconnecting wires at each outlet and switch until
it goes away. If no one will cooperate, tell the electrical inspector. He
won't pass the inspection until the problem is resolved. The electrical
inspectors that I have dealt with carry their own little plug-in
polarity/ground/GFI tester. If that was inserted into one of your
receptacles it would have immediately shown that a problem exists.

Occasionally I find a situation similar to this in large scale condo,
townhouse, and single family developments. Some of which are many years
old. It takes me hours to find the problem or I just wind up refeeding the
circuit with new cable. Unfortunately there isn't always a neat way to
accomplish this. Better to nip your problem now.

On Jun 9, 10:04*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92, "Doobielicious" wrote:
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

[snip rest]

Yes, the electrician *is* dangerous. Very dangerous. There are at least two
serious safety hazards in what he did: First, by reversing hot and neutral,
he's instantly put every switch on that circuit on the neutral side instead of
on the hot side where it belongs. Second, whatever caused the short to ground
is still there; it's just connected to the neutral instead of the hot --
trouble is, the neutral carries current too, and so whatever's touching that
is providing an alternate path for that current to return to ground, possibly
through somebody.

Explain this to the general contractor, and demand a *different* electrician.
Don't allow the first one back on your property, not even to try to fix his
own screw-up -- no assurance that he's competent to do it right, and plenty of
evidence that he's not.

Explain this to the general contractor, and demand a *different*
electrician.

I'm not arguing this point, in fact, I agree. I'm just noticing a bit
of a grey area here.

If the client should be dealing only with the GC, does the client
actually have the right/authority to decide which sub-contractors the
GC chooses? Wouldn't there need to be some sort of clause in the
contract to grant that authority?

In article , wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 01:44:43 GMT, "Doobielicious"
wrote:

OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
snip

You can label a wire on both ends using a tag or paint to make it
another color. In other words you can put black tape on both ends of
a white wire to use it as a hot wire.

Only under certain circumstances. And this isn't one of them.

A *black* wire is *never* permitted to be re-identified as a neutral.

And what about the damage to the cable? What about the fact that all of the
receptacles on the circuit have the hot and neutral reversed? What about the
fact that all the switches on the circuit now break the neutral side instead
of the hot side?

Any experienced electrician
should know what it takes to pass inspection. Personally, I don't
give a rat's ass about a government inspection, but I do care about
safety.

If you care about safety, then you shouldn't be suggesting, as you appear to
be, that there's *anything* legitimate about what this dangerously incompetent
baboon masquerading as an electrician did.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92, "Doobielicious"
wrote:
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs
in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

[snip rest]

Yes, the electrician *is* dangerous. Very dangerous. There are at least
two
serious safety hazards in what he did: First, by reversing hot and
neutral,
he's instantly put every switch on that circuit on the neutral side
instead of
on the hot side where it belongs. Second, whatever caused the short to
ground
is still there; it's just connected to the neutral instead of the hot --
trouble is, the neutral carries current too, and so whatever's touching
that
is providing an alternate path for that current to return to ground,
possibly
through somebody.

Explain this to the general contractor, and demand a *different*
electrician.
Don't allow the first one back on your property, not even to try to fix
his
own screw-up -- no assurance that he's competent to do it right, and
plenty of
evidence that he's not.


I agree. This must be fixed. However to find the problem holes may need
to be made in the drywall. The electrician should be able to narrow the
problem down a little by disconnecting wires at each outlet and switch
until it goes away. If no one will cooperate, tell the electrical
inspector. He won't pass the inspection until the problem is resolved.
The electrical inspectors that I have dealt with carry their own little
plug-in polarity/ground/GFI tester. If that was inserted into one of your
receptacles it would have immediately shown that a problem exists.

Occasionally I find a situation similar to this in large scale condo,
townhouse, and single family developments. Some of which are many years
old. It takes me hours to find the problem or I just wind up refeeding
the circuit with new cable. Unfortunately there isn't always a neat way
to accomplish this. Better to nip your problem now.

I used the testers when I was a safety inspector. It is incredible the
amount of circuits that are wired wrong.

Steve

"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will
not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and
I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance


Hey Doob,
I'm sure after the feedback you've received here your mind is pretty well
made up. I have to chime in and agree with the majority about the
electrician. I know a little bit about house wiring, not enough to be an
expert like some of those posting here. But even I know that putting your
switches in the neutral line is a huge no-no.... From what you have
described, you need to voice your displeasure with the GC about the
situation. Since the electrician is trying to pull a fast one, you need to
have someone you have confidence in. Let's face it, of the home utilities,
electric can be the trickiest and most potentially dangerous. And I would
still let the inspector know what happened, he may want to give closer
scrutiny to the rest of the job. Who knows, maybe this particular
electrician has a past history of working like this. His job isn't to bust
the electrician's balls, but it is to protect you, the homeowner. I had an
electrical inspection done after a major remodel, and he just gave the panel
a cursory once over. So, speak up to the GC, and please keep us posted with
the outcome. Mark
P.S. Buy a $5 tester and check ALL of his outlets for peace of mind.

inspectors that I have dealt with carry their own little plug-in
polarity/ground/GFI tester. If that was inserted into one of your
receptacles it would have immediately shown that a problem exists.

The two problems the OP have cannot be detected by plug in tester.
http://www.wiebetech.com/images/prod...ity_Tester.jpg
If you look, you'd notice there is no indication for white/black wires
switched, or Gound/Neutral shorted.

The label "correct" is very misleading. It should read "correct or list of
undetectable faults". Someday a law suit would arise out of this.

White and black wires switched at both ends (at the panel and the outlets)
can only be detected by visual inspection.

Neutral shorted to the ground somewhere in the middle can be easily detected
by disconnecting the neutral + hot from the panel and measuring continuity.

"peter" wrote in message
news:3Pz3k.1384$Mu.1252@trndny07...
inspectors that I have dealt with carry their own little plug-in
polarity/ground/GFI tester. If that was inserted into one of your
receptacles it would have immediately shown that a problem exists.

The two problems the OP have cannot be detected by plug in tester.
http://www.wiebetech.com/images/prod...ity_Tester.jpg
If you look, you'd notice there is no indication for white/black wires
switched, or Gound/Neutral shorted.

The label "correct" is very misleading. It should read "correct or list
of undetectable faults". Someday a law suit would arise out of this.

Right, like the tester won't detect a boot leg ground.
Tony

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "SteveB" wrote:


"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...


OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short. They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.


[snippo]


Point out your concerns to the inspector. He has the final word. Either
it's acceptable or it's not. Why all this tap dancing? If it fails, call
the GC and tell him it failed, and why, and to send a different electrician
to fix it. Maybe it will pass, and you're jousting with windmills.



If it passes, then the inspector isn't any more competent than the
electrician. There are multiple Code violations he
a) at least one place where the cable isn't adequately protected against nail
or screw penetration
b) damaged cable as a result of a)
c) neutral conductor now connected to something grounded as a result of b)
d) use of black wire for neutral
e) use of white wire for hot
f) hot and neutral reversed at EVERY receptacle on the circuit
g) EVERY switch on the circuit in the neutral conductor instead of the hot


Most of this thread is stuff I don't understand - which is neutral,
ground, etc. Last summer, the upstairs
neighbor in our condo was remodeling. He put in new flooring. We had
three electrical outages in part
of our unit, the third being the final one because resetting the breaker
didn't work the last time. At the
moment the power went out the first time, hubby and I were sitting in
our dining room and heard the
hammer hit the floor upstairs right above us at the moment the power
went out. The last time it went out, I went
upstairs right away to talk to the idiot doing the work. He explained
what and where he was working,
which helped greatly when the electrician arrived.

Bottom line, the electrician said the conduit between our units was too
close to the flooring above - it should
have been deeper in the rafter space. He also said that he had no doubt
the nails had penetrated the conduit
because the guy used a power nailer (which he had denied). The
electrician knew precisely what do do,
based on where we told him the damage had occurred. Just to prove the
line that he believed was damaged
was actually the one, he switched two connections at the main panel.
That didn't work, so he started pulling
the bad wire out - it had burnt through entirely and had numerous nicks
in the insulation from nail penetrations.
I was amazed that the electrician was able to feed new wire through the
conduits as far as he was able to - I had
pictured someone tearing all my ceilings open to fix the problem.

So, in the situation with a contractor and a sub, I certainly would put
my concerns in writing to the contractor and
ask him to correct the problem to code, with a different electrician if
need be. Whoever hired the electrician should
be the person dealing with him. A chat with the contractor is proof of
nothing if the situation goes bad; a nice, busi-
ness-like letter is better.

"peter" wrote in message
news:3Pz3k.1384$Mu.1252@trndny07...
inspectors that I have dealt with carry their own little plug-in
polarity/ground/GFI tester. If that was inserted into one of your
receptacles it would have immediately shown that a problem exists.

The two problems the OP have cannot be detected by plug in tester.
http://www.wiebetech.com/images/prod...ity_Tester.jpg
If you look, you'd notice there is no indication for white/black wires
switched, or Gound/Neutral shorted.

The label "correct" is very misleading. It should read "correct or list
of undetectable faults". Someday a law suit would arise out of this.

White and black wires switched at both ends (at the panel and the outlets)
can only be detected by visual inspection.

Neutral shorted to the ground somewhere in the middle can be easily
detected by disconnecting the neutral + hot from the panel and measuring
continuity.




Hot/neutral reversed would be the reading in this case.

Hot/neutral reversed would be the reading in this case.
Oops my bad.

Although it was not mentioned by the OP, a "respectable" electrician would
reverse the hot/neutral in the outlets after reversing them in the panel.
This way the faulty wiring would be undetectable.

In article YQQ3k.840$7A1.559@trndny04, says...
Although it was not mentioned by the OP, a "respectable" electrician would
reverse the hot/neutral in the outlets after reversing them in the panel.
This way the faulty wiring would be undetectable.

Uhhh.... no. Any *competent* electrician would fix the problem, instead
of attempting to hide it.

In article 3Pz3k.1384$Mu.1252@trndny07, says...
inspectors that I have dealt with carry their own little plug-in
polarity/ground/GFI tester. If that was inserted into one of your
receptacles it would have immediately shown that a problem exists.

The two problems the OP have cannot be detected by plug in tester.
http://www.wiebetech.com/images/prod...ity_Tester.jpg
If you look, you'd notice there is no indication for white/black wires
switched

Yes there is: "Hot/Neu. Reverse"

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:57:12 GMT, "peter" wrote:


Hot/neutral reversed would be the reading in this case.
Oops my bad.

Although it was not mentioned by the OP, a "respectable" electrician would
reverse the hot/neutral in the outlets after reversing them in the panel.
This way the faulty wiring would be undetectable.


It has already been mentioned, if an electrician switches the hot and
neutral, the biggest danger comes from lights. This causes the screw
shell of the lamp socket to be hot.

In article , wrote:


I'm a licensed electrician. I charge $90 per hour, with a minimum
charge for one hour regardless how small the job is.

I can answer your question in one hour or less.
As soon as I receive your payment of $90, I'll happily answer your
question.

Send payment to:

ROTFLMAO!

You're new here, aintcha?

The question's already been answered. More than once. Correctly, too.

At no charge.

????


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Either "yes, he is". Or, you're a troll.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Doobielicious" wrote in message
news:f0l3k.640$L03.193@edtnps92...
OK. My electrician has 1 feed for one of my bedrooms and a couple plugs in
hallway. The feed coming from my basement to my 2nd story has a short.
They
think the drywall or siding guys screwed into the wire. The circuit was
tripping so what he did was tied the neutral white wire into the breaker
and
then tied the black into the neutral bar of my panel. All works
plugs/lights
work. I caught this before and asked why he put the black on the neutral
bar
and the neutral wire on the breaker. He said he had a short somewhere and
did that to find where the problem is.

So when I was at work I was told by my contractor that the electrical was
fixed up and ready for final inspection. Curious as I am, I decided to
take
the cover off of my panel and found that he didn't make the change but
that
he put black tape over the neutral wire and back into the circuit breaker
and left the black on the neutral bar.

I called my contractor (not the electrician) and told him what he did and
said that there was no way that this would pass inspection. Am I wrong? Is
this a fix that would pass inspection? Is this a common thing for
electricians to do? This to me seems like a lazy fix, but am not sure if
this presents a hazard.

Like I said everything works in my hallway and bedroom so I am thinking he
reversed his wiring to make things work. So what it appears to me is that
the black wire is hitting the ground wire form when someone screwed the
drywall or siding.

Please offer me some advice and please let me know what I should say to
the
electrician when I question him on it. I know he will say hey don't worry
it
is safe, but I need to know if it is not safe and if it is not safe why it
isn't safe to do this. That way he will not jerk me around and it would
appear like I know what I am talking about.

I am almost thinking about telling my general contractor that he will not
get paid for my reno until this electrical situation is fixed properly and
I
am thinking about getting another electrician to make the fix because I
don't think I can trust this electrician.

Any and all advice is welcome

Thanks in Advance

The nerve of some people.

Business must be slow for him to be on usenet instead of out there charging
$90/hr.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:


I'm a licensed electrician. I charge $90 per hour, with a minimum
charge for one hour regardless how small the job is.

I can answer your question in one hour or less.
As soon as I receive your payment of $90, I'll happily answer your
question.

Send payment to:

ROTFLMAO!

You're new here, aintcha?

The question's already been answered. More than once. Correctly, too.

At no charge.

Google "Stormin Mormon" +troll

8000 hits.

He is obsessed with the beasts.




On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:27:54 GMT, "Doobielicious"
wrote:

????


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Either "yes, he is". Or, you're a troll.

--

wrote in message
m
charge for one hour regardless how small the job is.

I can answer your question in one hour or less.
As soon as I receive your payment of $90, I'll happily answer your
question.

Send payment to:

Jansen Electric
PO Box 8103
San Antonio, TX 78209

We accept cash, checks and money orders.
Or phone in with your credit card number.
1-800-412-8103 (additional charges imposed for using our toll free
number).

Robert W. Jansen - Senior Company President


That has to be the tackiest answer on Usenet. I'd never do business with
you.

In article G5_3k.908$sg6.645@edtnps91,
"Doobielicious" wrote:

The nerve of some people.

Business must be slow for him to be on usenet instead of out there charging
$90/hr.




The brainpower of some people. Boys and girls, can you say "Poke in the
ribs?"

"metspitzer" wrote in message
news
Google "Stormin Mormon" +troll

8000 hits.

He is obsessed with the beasts.


Not to mention his religious sig line.

If you have a general contractor why are you dealing with the electrician?
Just tell them you want it to pass inspection and let them deal with it.

You might want to give your contractor a "Heads Up" on what you saw.

What was described just "ain't right" (i.e.: not safe) and you may consider
dropping a dime on the electrician and ensure that the inspector looks
closely at the work.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...



If you have a general contractor why are you dealing with the
electrician?
Just tell them you want it to pass inspection and let them deal with it.

You might want to give your contractor a "Heads Up" on what you saw.

What was described just "ain't right" (i.e.: not safe) and you may
consider dropping a dime on the electrician and ensure that the inspector
looks closely at the work.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"may consider" ? Rat the ******* out. If he doesn't care if you go up in a
house fire, he's worth the dime.

Steve