We had a leak in the master bath (upstairs) and so now in the midst of
a complete bathroom remodel. Electrical question....

The old bathroom had two circuits flowing into it - the first (15A,
14/2 wire) connected to one outlet (not GFI) and then hopped to
another bathroom where it connected to an outlet there. The other
circuit was sort of normal lighting/fixtures/15A/14-2 wiring, etc.

My question is with the outlets. I want to A) make sure they're GFI,
B) safe as they need to be, and C) add another. With the remodel &
current code do I have to change the whole circuit to 20A? Which
means I'd have to pull all the existing 14/2 cabling and replace with
12/2?

If I do this, then what is the likelihood of me being able to
disconnect the cable at the breaker box, and then pulling the cable up
two floors to the attic through the wall? Is it likely stapled inside
the wall? I don't want to damage the 4 or 5 other cables running down
the same hole through top/bottom plates.

Is a better bet for me to just disconnect the 15A circuit breaker &
tie off that cable so it's dead. Then add a fresh 20A circuit
breaker, and go in the crawl space (very accessible), run the cable
down, then up the HVAC chase to the attic? I think the run length
would actually be about the same.

On May 29, 2:41*pm, CB wrote:
We had a leak in the master bath (upstairs) and so now in the midst of
a complete bathroom remodel. *Electrical question....

The old bathroom had two circuits flowing into it - the first (15A,
14/2 wire) connected to one outlet (not GFI) and then hopped to
another bathroom where it connected to an outlet there. *The other
circuit was sort of normal lighting/fixtures/15A/14-2 wiring, etc.

My question is with the outlets. *I want to A) make sure they're GFI,
B) safe as they need to be, and C) add another. *With the remodel &
current code do I have to change the whole circuit to 20A? *Which
means I'd have to pull all the existing 14/2 cabling and replace with
12/2?

If I do this, then what is the likelihood of me being able to
disconnect the cable at the breaker box, and then pulling the cable up
two floors to the attic through the wall? *Is it likely stapled inside
the wall? *I don't want to damage the 4 or 5 other cables running down
the same hole through top/bottom plates.

Is a better bet for me to just disconnect the 15A circuit breaker &
tie off that cable so it's dead. *Then add a fresh 20A circuit
breaker, and go in the crawl space (very accessible), run the cable
down, then up the HVAC chase to the attic? *I think the run length
would actually be about the same.

If this is a new remodel, and walls are going to be open, you might as
well run new 20A. Don't bother trying to use the old 15A wire as a
drag line, just cap it off in the panel. I believe code now calls for
20A in a bathroom. If you are going to have a fan/light/heat combo
unit, that alone needs its own circuit
It would be different if you had to tear walls open if you have to run
a new line, but since you have access to run cables, might as well do
it.
I would also like to add if you are putting a fan/light combo inside
the shower/tub area, it must be GFI protected. You can just get the
feed off of the GFI outlet to accomplish this.

If this is a new remodel, and walls are going to be open, you might as
well run new 20A. Don't bother trying to use the old 15A wire as a
drag line, just cap it off in the panel. I believe code now calls for
20A in a bathroom. If you are going to have a fan/light/heat combo
unit, that alone needs its own circuit
It would be different if you had to tear walls open if you have to run
a new line, but since you have access to run cables, might as well do
it.
I would also like to add if you are putting a fan/light combo inside
the shower/tub area, it must be GFI protected. You can just get the
feed off of the GFI outlet to accomplish this.

The bathroom walls are definitely out - I stare at insulation and
studs every night when I get home - ugh.

I may be missing something - if I am please forgive me. You said the
fan/light combo must be on a dedicated circuit, but then you said that
I could catch the GFI for the fan/light off the outlet run, implying
that now it's on the same circuit as the outlets.

And just wanted to confirm - I shouldn't mess with trying to fish the
15A cable out and then fish a 20A wire down via the attic? Did you
think that I should run across the crawl space and then up the HVAC
chase two floors?

"CB" wrote in message
...

If this is a new remodel, and walls are going to be open, you might as
well run new 20A. Don't bother trying to use the old 15A wire as a
drag line, just cap it off in the panel. I believe code now calls for
20A in a bathroom. If you are going to have a fan/light/heat combo
unit, that alone needs its own circuit
It would be different if you had to tear walls open if you have to run
a new line, but since you have access to run cables, might as well do
it.
I would also like to add if you are putting a fan/light combo inside
the shower/tub area, it must be GFI protected. You can just get the
feed off of the GFI outlet to accomplish this.

The bathroom walls are definitely out - I stare at insulation and
studs every night when I get home - ugh.

I may be missing something - if I am please forgive me. You said the
fan/light combo must be on a dedicated circuit, but then you said that
I could catch the GFI for the fan/light off the outlet run, implying
that now it's on the same circuit as the outlets.

And just wanted to confirm - I shouldn't mess with trying to fish the
15A cable out and then fish a 20A wire down via the attic? Did you
think that I should run across the crawl space and then up the HVAC
chase two floors?

First of all, it would make little sense to have the existing outlet circuit
daisy chained from one bathroom to another unless it was in fact protected
by a GFCI device upstream of these outlets. This was done commonly in the
80's. If you want to run new circuits to upgrade the bathroom, the easiest
thing to do would be to run one 20 amp circuit and just use it for the
outlets in the renovated bath. You can use the existing lighting circuit for
any new lights and fans, etc. provided you're not adding any electric heat
or Jacuzzi, and things of that nature. You cannot disconnect either of the
existing circuits at the panel, as they are feeding things other that the
renovated bathroom, so you have to locate junction boxes in some accessible
place to splice those circuits through, to wherever they're going.

First of all, it would make little sense to have the existing outlet circuit
daisy chained from one bathroom to another unless it was in fact protected
by a GFCI device upstream of these outlets. This was done commonly in the
80's. If you want to run new circuits to upgrade the bathroom, the easiest
thing to do would be to run one 20 amp circuit and just use it for the
outlets in the renovated bath. You can use the existing lighting circuit for
any new lights and fans, etc. provided you're not adding any electric heat
or Jacuzzi, and things of that nature. You cannot disconnect either of the
existing circuits at the panel, as they are feeding things other that the
renovated bathroom, so you have to locate junction boxes in some accessible
place to splice those circuits through, to wherever they're going.

I currently have one 15A circuit doing the bath outlets (for both
baths) and another 15A circuit doing lights for that bathroom, a
closet, and another bathroom. Tell me if this sounds reasonable:

1) leave the existing 15A circuit that currently powers the existing
lights, etc. and remove bathroom B and closet from that circuit
2) leave the existing 15A circuit that currently powers the outlets,
and in the attic, cut the line to remove the outlets from the circuit
and splice/branch out to do the second bathroom's lights (and maybe a
closet light?)
3) run new 20A circuit to 2 bathroom outlets in bath A, and then over
to 1 bath outlet in bath B, with GFI on the 1st outlet in the run

Does this sound logical?

"CB" wrote in message
...


First of all, it would make little sense to have the existing outlet
circuit
daisy chained from one bathroom to another unless it was in fact
protected
by a GFCI device upstream of these outlets. This was done commonly in the
80's. If you want to run new circuits to upgrade the bathroom, the
easiest
thing to do would be to run one 20 amp circuit and just use it for the
outlets in the renovated bath. You can use the existing lighting circuit
for
any new lights and fans, etc. provided you're not adding any electric
heat
or Jacuzzi, and things of that nature. You cannot disconnect either of
the
existing circuits at the panel, as they are feeding things other that the
renovated bathroom, so you have to locate junction boxes in some
accessible
place to splice those circuits through, to wherever they're going.

I currently have one 15A circuit doing the bath outlets (for both
baths) and another 15A circuit doing lights for that bathroom, a
closet, and another bathroom. Tell me if this sounds reasonable:

1) leave the existing 15A circuit that currently powers the existing
lights, etc. and remove bathroom B and closet from that circuit
2) leave the existing 15A circuit that currently powers the outlets,
and in the attic, cut the line to remove the outlets from the circuit
and splice/branch out to do the second bathroom's lights (and maybe a
closet light?)
3) run new 20A circuit to 2 bathroom outlets in bath A, and then over
to 1 bath outlet in bath B, with GFI on the 1st outlet in the run

Does this sound logical?

Perfectly logical, and NEC legal

I may be missing something - if I am please forgive me. *You said the
fan/light combo must be on a dedicated circuit, but then you said that
I could catch the GFI for the fan/light off the outlet run, implying
that now it's on the same circuit as the outlets.

If you have just a fan/light combo, it does not need its own circuit.
If you have a fan/light/heat combo, then you do. Just the heat part of
it will use at least 10-12 amps.
Whatever you choose, if its going to be inside the shower area it
needs to be GFI protected. If you have the fan/light just grab it off
the GFI outlet. If it has heat also, run a dedicated line and put it
on a GFI breaker.
If its outside the shower, it does not need GFI protection.

And just wanted to confirm - I shouldn't mess with trying to fish the
15A cable out and then fish a 20A wire down via the attic? *Did you
think that I should run across the crawl space and then up the HVAC
chase two floors?
The 15A cable might be stapled, unless you know for sure you can pull
it than go ahead. Otherwisw just run in the crawl space then up the
chase.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
I may be missing something - if I am please forgive me. You said the
fan/light combo must be on a dedicated circuit, but then you said that
I could catch the GFI for the fan/light off the outlet run, implying
that now it's on the same circuit as the outlets.

If you have just a fan/light combo, it does not need its own circuit.
If you have a fan/light/heat combo, then you do. Just the heat part of
it will use at least 10-12 amps.
Whatever you choose, if its going to be inside the shower area it
needs to be GFI protected. If you have the fan/light just grab it off
the GFI outlet. If it has heat also, run a dedicated line and put it
on a GFI breaker.
If its outside the shower, it does not need GFI protection.

And just wanted to confirm - I shouldn't mess with trying to fish the
15A cable out and then fish a 20A wire down via the attic? Did you
think that I should run across the crawl space and then up the HVAC
chase two floors?
The 15A cable might be stapled, unless you know for sure you can pull
it than go ahead. Otherwisw just run in the crawl space then up the
chase.

What you're suggesting regarding the GFCI protection for a fan over a tub or
shower, is only acceptible if he's wiring one bathroom entirely on a 20 amp
circuit. If, as he suggested,he feeds multiple bathroom receptacle outlets
with one 20 amp circuit, no lighting, fans, or anything else, except other
bathroom receptacle outlets can go on that circuit

Keep 'em coming - this good info.......glad to know the A/C chase is
legal....

"CB" wrote in message
...
Keep 'em coming - this good info.......glad to know the A/C chase is
legal....

I didn't make any reference to using an A/C chase. If it's a chase for pipes
and wires it's fine, but don't be running Romex inside of any plenums

What you're suggesting regarding the GFCI protection for a fan over a tub or
shower, is only acceptible if he's wiring one bathroom entirely on a 20 amp
circuit. If, as he suggested,he feeds *multiple bathroom receptacle outlets
with one 20 amp circuit, no lighting, fans, or anything else, except other
bathroom receptacle outlets can go on that circuit

Correct. I was assuming he was running 2 seperate feeds for each
bathroom.

I didn't make any reference to using an A/C chase. If it's a chase for
pipes
and wires it's fine, but don't be running Romex inside of any plenums
-------------------

So the A/C chase is or isn't legal?

This "plenum" (if it is one? not sure) is pretty dang big. It's
about a 4 x 3 foot area dead zone in each floor. The A/C stuff is in
one corner leaving basically a large coat closet's worth of dead space
on each floor.

CB wrote:
I didn't make any reference to using an A/C chase. If it's a chase for
pipes
and wires it's fine, but don't be running Romex inside of any plenums
-------------------

So the A/C chase is or isn't legal?

This "plenum" (if it is one? not sure) is pretty dang big. It's
about a 4 x 3 foot area dead zone in each floor. The A/C stuff is in
one corner leaving basically a large coat closet's worth of dead space
on each floor.

Is there typically airflow in this chase, or is there an actual duct
within the chase?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"CB" wrote in message
...

I didn't make any reference to using an A/C chase. If it's a chase for
pipes
and wires it's fine, but don't be running Romex inside of any plenums
-------------------

So the A/C chase is or isn't legal?

This "plenum" (if it is one? not sure) is pretty dang big. It's
about a 4 x 3 foot area dead zone in each floor. The A/C stuff is in
one corner leaving basically a large coat closet's worth of dead space
on each floor.

If it's use as an air duct, you can't run Romex cables in it.

On May 29, 7:46 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...



I didn't make any reference to using an A/C chase. If it's a chase for
pipes
and wires it's fine, but don't be running Romex inside of any plenums
-------------------

So the A/C chase is or isn't legal?

This "plenum" (if it is one? not sure) is pretty dang big. It's
about a 4 x 3 foot area dead zone in each floor. The A/C stuff is in
one corner leaving basically a large coat closet's worth of dead space
on each floor.

If it's use as an air duct, you can't run Romex cables in it.

It's essentially a very small unfinished room in the middle of my
house on both floors, stacked vertically, with a duct in it that
travels all the way up. The cables would not be in the duct (it's an
enclosed appears-to-be-aluminum duct). The cables would be in the
"room" part.

"CB" wrote in message
...
On May 29, 7:46 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...



I didn't make any reference to using an A/C chase. If it's a chase for
pipes
and wires it's fine, but don't be running Romex inside of any plenums
-------------------

So the A/C chase is or isn't legal?

This "plenum" (if it is one? not sure) is pretty dang big. It's
about a 4 x 3 foot area dead zone in each floor. The A/C stuff is in
one corner leaving basically a large coat closet's worth of dead space
on each floor.

If it's use as an air duct, you can't run Romex cables in it.

It's essentially a very small unfinished room in the middle of my
house on both floors, stacked vertically, with a duct in it that
travels all the way up. The cables would not be in the duct (it's an
enclosed appears-to-be-aluminum duct). The cables would be in the
"room" part.

That's fine

Just out of curiousity, how are the outlets/switches going to be laid
out?

On May 30, 7:51 am, Mikepier wrote:
Just out of curiousity, how are the outlets/switches going to be laid
out?

Well, since I wrote last, things have changed a little. I originally
thought that I had a 15A circuit that took the following path.

1 - from panel upstairs to attic
2 - over to master bath to outlet (not GFI)
3 - hopped over to 2nd bath outlet (also not GFI)

I thought it ended there. Alas, no. The true path is:
1 - from panel upstairs to attic
2 - over to master bath to outlet (not GFI)
3 - hopped over to 2nd bath outlet (also not GFI)
4 - goes downstairs to 1/2 bath outlet
5 - goes into crawlspace over to outdoor outlet (also not GFI)

So now even if I wire everything upstairs properly on the new 20A
circuit, I have to do separate the downstairs outlets from that
circuit and do something with the downstairs outlets - I guess splice
them into an accessible, not-overloaded, available 15A circuit
downstairs?

Anyway, so to answer your question regarding layout - here's a
possibility.
Circuit #1 (new 20A)
1 - run a new 20A circuit from panel through crawl space, up the
invisible room chute into attic
2 - take this cable over to master bath outlet #1 (new GFI)
3 - take the outgoing load from this GFI outlet to master bath outlet
#2
4 - take the outgoing load from this outlet to 2nd bath outlet
Now Circuit #1 is 20A, 12 AWG and has just three outlets on it, all
GFI protected. As mentioned above I'd have to do something with the 2
downstairs outlets that used to be on this circuit.

Circuit #2 (old 15A)
1 - this currently comes from the panel into the attic and runs to the
master bath outlet. Since I'm wiring these outlets with the new
circuit #1 above, I cut this line and route it to handle the bathroom
light switch, vanity light, and light/fan FOR BOTH UPSTAIRS
BATHROOMS. There will be no heater, which I've read means that I can
use 15A. Some have told me the light/fan needs to be GFI and some
have told me it does not - if it does need to be please tell me the
section of code specifically from NEC. If it needs to be GFI I'm
tempted to put in a GFI breaker instead of messing with mixing the
light fixtures and routing them into Circuit #1.

Circuit #3 (the other old 15A)
1 - this currently comes from the panel into the attic and powers the
whole side of my house (master bedroom, master bath fixtures, 2nd bath
fixtures, 2 closets). Since the bathroom fixtures will be taken care
of by rerouting Circuit #2 above, this circuit will basically just
power my bedroom and closet lights now.

CB wrote:
On May 30, 7:51 am, Mikepier wrote:

Just out of curiousity, how are the outlets/switches going to be laid
out?


Well, since I wrote last, things have changed a little. I originally
thought that I had a 15A circuit that took the following path.

1 - from panel upstairs to attic
2 - over to master bath to outlet (not GFI)
3 - hopped over to 2nd bath outlet (also not GFI)

I thought it ended there. Alas, no. The true path is:
1 - from panel upstairs to attic
2 - over to master bath to outlet (not GFI)
3 - hopped over to 2nd bath outlet (also not GFI)
4 - goes downstairs to 1/2 bath outlet
5 - goes into crawlspace over to outdoor outlet (also not GFI)

So now even if I wire everything upstairs properly on the new 20A
circuit, I have to do separate the downstairs outlets from that
circuit and do something with the downstairs outlets - I guess splice
them into an accessible, not-overloaded, available 15A circuit
downstairs?

Anyway, so to answer your question regarding layout - here's a
possibility.
Circuit #1 (new 20A)
1 - run a new 20A circuit from panel through crawl space, up the
invisible room chute into attic
2 - take this cable over to master bath outlet #1 (new GFI)
3 - take the outgoing load from this GFI outlet to master bath outlet
#2
4 - take the outgoing load from this outlet to 2nd bath outlet
Now Circuit #1 is 20A, 12 AWG and has just three outlets on it, all
GFI protected. As mentioned above I'd have to do something with the 2
downstairs outlets that used to be on this circuit.

Circuit #2 (old 15A)
1 - this currently comes from the panel into the attic and runs to the
master bath outlet. Since I'm wiring these outlets with the new
circuit #1 above, I cut this line and route it to handle the bathroom
light switch, vanity light, and light/fan FOR BOTH UPSTAIRS
BATHROOMS. There will be no heater, which I've read means that I can
use 15A. Some have told me the light/fan needs to be GFI and some
have told me it does not - if it does need to be please tell me the
section of code specifically from NEC. If it needs to be GFI I'm
tempted to put in a GFI breaker instead of messing with mixing the
light fixtures and routing them into Circuit #1.

Circuit #3 (the other old 15A)
1 - this currently comes from the panel into the attic and powers the
whole side of my house (master bedroom, master bath fixtures, 2nd bath
fixtures, 2 closets). Since the bathroom fixtures will be taken care
of by rerouting Circuit #2 above, this circuit will basically just
power my bedroom and closet lights now.
Hmmm,
That's GFCI circuit lumped up as on line. You think the things on that
string is used all at the same time all the time? How many times this
will happens you think?

Circuit #1 (new 20A)
1 - run a new 20A circuit from panel through crawl space, up the
invisible room chute into attic
2 - take this cable over to master bath outlet #1 (new GFI)
3 - take the outgoing load from this GFI outlet to master bath outlet
#2
4 - take the outgoing load from this outlet to 2nd bath outlet
Now Circuit #1 is 20A, 12 AWG and has just three outlets on it, all
GFI protected. *As mentioned above I'd have to do something with the 2
downstairs outlets that used to be on this circuit.

I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

Circuit #2 (old 15A)
1 - this currently comes from the panel into the attic and runs to the
master bath outlet. *Since I'm wiring these outlets with the new
circuit #1 above, I cut this line and route it to handle the bathroom
light switch, vanity light, and light/fan FOR BOTH UPSTAIRS
BATHROOMS. *There will be no heater, which I've read means that I can
use 15A. *Some have told me the light/fan needs to be GFI and some
have told me it does not - if it does need to be please tell me the
section of code specifically from NEC. *If it needs to be GFI I'm
tempted to put in a GFI breaker instead of messing with mixing the
light fixtures and routing them into Circuit #1.

This sounds good, leave the 15A to feed some lighting and fan, plus
the 1/2 bath and outside outlet. This means you don't have to go crazy
re-routing new wires downstairs.
As I've said, if the fan/light is inside the shower/tub area it must
be on GFI. Outside of it, it does not need it.

Circuit #3 (the other old 15A)
1 - this currently comes from the panel into the attic and powers the
whole side of my house (master bedroom, master bath fixtures, 2nd bath
fixtures, 2 closets). *Since the bathroom fixtures will be taken care
of by rerouting Circuit #2 above, this circuit will basically just
power my bedroom and closet lights now.

I don't see a problem with this.

I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light, vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

OK - was just on another newsgroup, where someone said if the circuit
is existing, I basically just abide by the rules as they existed when
the circuit was run and don't need to run a new 20A circuit to the
bath. Can someone confirm this? In other words, basically all my
problems go away. So then I would have:

Circuit #1 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bath outlet, where I
would add a GFI outlet first in the chain
2 - then over to outlet #2 in upstairs master bath
3 - then over to upstairs 2nd bathroom outlet
4 - then downstairs to 1/2 outlet
5 - then outside to the outdoor outlet

Circuit #2 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bedroom receptacles
2 - then into upstairs master bathroom for lights/switches
3 - then into upstairs closet for light
4 - then into upstairs 2nd bathroom for lights

Pretty much the only thing I'd have to do is swap out an outlet, and
insert another one in the line.

On May 30, 1:42*pm, CB wrote:
OK - was just on another newsgroup, where someone said if the circuit
is existing, I basically just abide by the rules as they existed when
the circuit was run and don't need to run a new 20A circuit to the
bath. *Can someone confirm this? *In other words, basically all my
problems go away. *So then I would have:

Circuit #1 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bath outlet, where I
would add a GFI outlet first in the chain
2 - then over to outlet #2 in upstairs master bath
3 - then over to upstairs 2nd bathroom outlet
4 - then downstairs to 1/2 outlet
5 - then outside to the outdoor outlet

Circuit #2 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bedroom receptacles
2 - then into upstairs master bathroom for lights/switches
3 - then into upstairs closet for light
4 - then into upstairs 2nd bathroom for lights

Pretty much the only thing I'd have to do is swap out an outlet, and
insert another one in the line.

In all likelyhood, if you leave it the way it is it should be fine. I
was just suggesting if thing are wide open, and if you were adding
more powerhogs, to run a new line.
Heck, in my house now I have a 15A circuit feeding my master bath (fan/
light, vanity, outlet, 200W heat lamp) plus my master bedroom lights
and outlets, an attic ventilation fan, and 2 outside lights. I've been
in the house 4 years, the breaker never tripped. But I'm sure one day
when I do the bathroom over I will run a new line.

On May 30, 1:54 pm, Mikepier wrote:
On May 30, 1:42 pm, CB wrote:



OK - was just on another newsgroup, where someone said if the circuit
is existing, I basically just abide by the rules as they existed when
the circuit was run and don't need to run a new 20A circuit to the
bath. Can someone confirm this? In other words, basically all my
problems go away. So then I would have:

Circuit #1 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bath outlet, where I
would add a GFI outlet first in the chain
2 - then over to outlet #2 in upstairs master bath
3 - then over to upstairs 2nd bathroom outlet
4 - then downstairs to 1/2 outlet
5 - then outside to the outdoor outlet

Circuit #2 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bedroom receptacles
2 - then into upstairs master bathroom for lights/switches
3 - then into upstairs closet for light
4 - then into upstairs 2nd bathroom for lights

Pretty much the only thing I'd have to do is swap out an outlet, and
insert another one in the line.

In all likelyhood, if you leave it the way it is it should be fine. I
was just suggesting if thing are wide open, and if you were adding
more powerhogs, to run a new line.
Heck, in my house now I have a 15A circuit feeding my master bath (fan/
light, vanity, outlet, 200W heat lamp) plus my master bedroom lights
and outlets, an attic ventilation fan, and 2 outside lights. I've been
in the house 4 years, the breaker never tripped. But I'm sure one day
when I do the bathroom over I will run a new line.

I'm not adding any powerhogs really. I was just under the impression
that any remodeling effort would mean things would have to be brought
up to current code. If I can leave the existing circuit in place,
then I've got nothing to worry about. There's just me, 2 young boys
and my wife, so it's not like I have 3 hair dryers going at once.
Where can I find an "official" answer to this, short of calling an
electrician?

On May 30, 2:00*pm, CB wrote:
On May 30, 1:54 pm, Mikepier wrote:





On May 30, 1:42 pm, CB wrote:

OK - was just on another newsgroup, where someone said if the circuit
is existing, I basically just abide by the rules as they existed when
the circuit was run and don't need to run a new 20A circuit to the
bath. *Can someone confirm this? *In other words, basically all my
problems go away. *So then I would have:

Circuit #1 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bath outlet, where I
would add a GFI outlet first in the chain
2 - then over to outlet #2 in upstairs master bath
3 - then over to upstairs 2nd bathroom outlet
4 - then downstairs to 1/2 outlet
5 - then outside to the outdoor outlet

Circuit #2 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bedroom receptacles
2 - then into upstairs master bathroom for lights/switches
3 - then into upstairs closet for light
4 - then into upstairs 2nd bathroom for lights

Pretty much the only thing I'd have to do is swap out an outlet, and
insert another one in the line.

In all likelyhood, if you leave it the way it is it should be fine. I
was just suggesting if thing are wide open, and if you were adding
more powerhogs, to run a new line.
Heck, in my house now I have a 15A circuit feeding my master bath (fan/
light, vanity, outlet, 200W heat lamp) plus my master bedroom lights
and outlets, an attic ventilation fan, and 2 outside lights. I've been
in the house 4 years, the breaker never tripped. But I'm sure one day
when I do the bathroom over I will run a new line.

I'm not adding any powerhogs really. *I was just under the impression
that any remodeling effort would mean things would have to be brought
up to current code. *If I can leave the existing circuit in place,
then I've got nothing to worry about. *There's just me, 2 young boys
and my wife, so it's not like I have 3 hair dryers going at once.
Where can I find an "official" answer to this, short of calling an
electrician?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I honestly don't know, every town is different. If this is just a
matter of replacing sheetrock and some light DIY stuff, I doubt you
will be cited for any violations.

On May 30, 2:00�pm, CB wrote:
On May 30, 1:54 pm, Mikepier wrote:





On May 30, 1:42 pm, CB wrote:

OK - was just on another newsgroup, where someone said if the circuit
is existing, I basically just abide by the rules as they existed when
the circuit was run and don't need to run a new 20A circuit to the
bath. �Can someone confirm this? �In other words, basically all my
problems go away. �So then I would have:

Circuit #1 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bath outlet, where I
would add a GFI outlet first in the chain
2 - then over to outlet #2 in upstairs master bath
3 - then over to upstairs 2nd bathroom outlet
4 - then downstairs to 1/2 outlet
5 - then outside to the outdoor outlet

Circuit #2 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bedroom receptacles
2 - then into upstairs master bathroom for lights/switches
3 - then into upstairs closet for light
4 - then into upstairs 2nd bathroom for lights

Pretty much the only thing I'd have to do is swap out an outlet, and
insert another one in the line.

In all likelyhood, if you leave it the way it is it should be fine. I
was just suggesting if thing are wide open, and if you were adding
more powerhogs, to run a new line.
Heck, in my house now I have a 15A circuit feeding my master bath (fan/
light, vanity, outlet, 200W heat lamp) plus my master bedroom lights
and outlets, an attic ventilation fan, and 2 outside lights. I've been
in the house 4 years, the breaker never tripped. But I'm sure one day
when I do the bathroom over I will run a new line.

I'm not adding any powerhogs really. �I was just under the impression
that any remodeling effort would mean things would have to be brought
up to current code. �If I can leave the existing circuit in place,
then I've got nothing to worry about. �There's just me, 2 young boys
and my wife, so it's not like I have 3 hair dryers going at once.
Where can I find an "official" answer to this, short of calling an
electrician?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

at resale time, a up to date system is better.

and add a curling iron and blow dryer can trip a 15 amp breaker, which
got me to run a dedicated 20 amp line to the bath with GFCI.

I would at least run this if i were you. as compared to the entire
bath remodel its cheap and easy to do while the walls are open

"CB" wrote in message
...

I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light, vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

CB, let me reiterate something I said previously, Those existing bathroom
outlet circuits "are" GFCI protected. You just haven't found the one,
upstream GFCI device protecting them. There is no way anyone would have
daisy-chained bathroom outlets together like that unless the entire string
was protected by a GFCI device at the first required location

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
On May 30, 1:42 pm, CB wrote:
OK - was just on another newsgroup, where someone said if the circuit
is existing, I basically just abide by the rules as they existed when
the circuit was run and don't need to run a new 20A circuit to the
bath. Can someone confirm this? In other words, basically all my
problems go away. So then I would have:

Circuit #1 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bath outlet, where I
would add a GFI outlet first in the chain
2 - then over to outlet #2 in upstairs master bath
3 - then over to upstairs 2nd bathroom outlet
4 - then downstairs to 1/2 outlet
5 - then outside to the outdoor outlet

Circuit #2 (existing 15A)
1 - circuit comes from panel to upstairs master bedroom receptacles
2 - then into upstairs master bathroom for lights/switches
3 - then into upstairs closet for light
4 - then into upstairs 2nd bathroom for lights

Pretty much the only thing I'd have to do is swap out an outlet, and
insert another one in the line.

In all likelyhood, if you leave it the way it is it should be fine. I
was just suggesting if thing are wide open, and if you were adding
more powerhogs, to run a new line.
Heck, in my house now I have a 15A circuit feeding my master bath (fan/
light, vanity, outlet, 200W heat lamp) plus my master bedroom lights
and outlets, an attic ventilation fan, and 2 outside lights. I've been
in the house 4 years, the breaker never tripped. But I'm sure one day
when I do the bathroom over I will run a new line.

The reason the code was changed was to accomodate 1800 watt blow dryers.
Everything was fine when they maxed out at 1000 watts

On May 30, 4:05 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...





I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light, vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

CB, let me reiterate something I said previously, Those existing bathroom
outlet circuits "are" GFCI protected. You just haven't found the one,
upstream GFCI device protecting them. There is no way anyone would have
daisy-chained bathroom outlets together like that unless the entire string
was protected by a GFCI device at the first required location

I really don't think so - the house was built in 1978. And I've
followed the line from the panel and all the way up & down & across
the house. The breaker isn't gfci and none of the outlets had a reset
button. Not sure if GFCI looked different in 1978 but nothing
appeared to me that it was GFCI.

I would test the outlets to prove my poitn, but I've already
disconnected them.

"CB" wrote in message
...
On May 30, 4:05 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...





I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light, vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

CB, let me reiterate something I said previously, Those existing bathroom
outlet circuits "are" GFCI protected. You just haven't found the one,
upstream GFCI device protecting them. There is no way anyone would have
daisy-chained bathroom outlets together like that unless the entire
string
was protected by a GFCI device at the first required location

I really don't think so - the house was built in 1978. And I've
followed the line from the panel and all the way up & down & across
the house. The breaker isn't gfci and none of the outlets had a reset
button. Not sure if GFCI looked different in 1978 but nothing
appeared to me that it was GFCI.

I would test the outlets to prove my poitn, but I've already
disconnected them.

In 1978 the code required GFCI protected outlets to be in garages, outside,
bathrooms, and possibly unfinished basements. I would look in all those
locations for the protecting GFCI outlet

On May 30, 8:09 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...



On May 30, 4:05 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...

I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light, vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

CB, let me reiterate something I said previously, Those existing bathroom
outlet circuits "are" GFCI protected. You just haven't found the one,
upstream GFCI device protecting them. There is no way anyone would have
daisy-chained bathroom outlets together like that unless the entire
string
was protected by a GFCI device at the first required location

I really don't think so - the house was built in 1978. And I've
followed the line from the panel and all the way up & down & across
the house. The breaker isn't gfci and none of the outlets had a reset
button. Not sure if GFCI looked different in 1978 but nothing
appeared to me that it was GFCI.

I would test the outlets to prove my poitn, but I've already
disconnected them.

In 1978 the code required GFCI protected outlets to be in garages, outside,
bathrooms, and possibly unfinished basements. I would look in all those
locations for the protecting GFCI outlet

The first thing on this circuit was the master bath outlet. Which
wasn't GFCI. So I'm hearing ya - but it just ain't GFCI.

On May 30, 9:38�pm, CB wrote:
On May 30, 8:09 pm, "RBM" wrote:





"CB" wrote in message

...

On May 30, 4:05 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

....

I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. �If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light, vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? �I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

CB, let me reiterate something I said previously, Those existing bathroom
outlet circuits "are" GFCI protected. You just haven't found the one,
upstream GFCI device protecting them. There is no way anyone would have
daisy-chained bathroom outlets together like that unless the entire
string
was protected by a GFCI device at the first required location

I really don't think so - the house was built in 1978. �And I've
followed the line from the panel and all the way up & down & across
the house. �The breaker isn't gfci and none of the outlets had a reset
button. �Not sure if GFCI looked different in 1978 but nothing
appeared to me that it was GFCI.

I would test the outlets to prove my poitn, but I've already
disconnected them.

In 1978 the code required GFCI protected outlets to be in garages, outside,
bathrooms, and possibly unfinished basements. I would look in all those
locations for the protecting GFCI outlet

The first thing on this circuit was the master bath outlet. �Which
wasn't GFCI. �So I'm hearing ya - but it just ain't GFCI.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

could it be a gfci breaker?

create a fault, and see if something trips

of course a previous owner could of tired of nuisance trips and
replaced the GFCI with a regular outlet

"CB" wrote in message
...
On May 30, 8:09 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...



On May 30, 4:05 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"CB" wrote in message

...

I might be wrong, but I beleive each seperate bathroom must be on
its
own 20A circuit.

-----

I thought I had read or heard somewhere where some referenced the
all-
mysterious "code" and said that if there was nothing else on the
circuit except the outlets, then it could be used for another
bathroom's outlet. If I put the master bath outlet, fan/light,
vanity
light, etc. on that 20A circuit, I think I could not jump to the
other
bathroom.

Can someone confirm?

BTW - the NEC really needs to make it easier for DIYers - I don't
know
- maybe a searchable database, FAQ, knowledgebase? I know it keeps
electricians in business b/c then no one bothers & they just hire an
electrician who understands the almighty "code".

CB, let me reiterate something I said previously, Those existing
bathroom
outlet circuits "are" GFCI protected. You just haven't found the one,
upstream GFCI device protecting them. There is no way anyone would
have
daisy-chained bathroom outlets together like that unless the entire
string
was protected by a GFCI device at the first required location

I really don't think so - the house was built in 1978. And I've
followed the line from the panel and all the way up & down & across
the house. The breaker isn't gfci and none of the outlets had a reset
button. Not sure if GFCI looked different in 1978 but nothing
appeared to me that it was GFCI.

I would test the outlets to prove my poitn, but I've already
disconnected them.

In 1978 the code required GFCI protected outlets to be in garages,
outside,
bathrooms, and possibly unfinished basements. I would look in all those
locations for the protecting GFCI outlet

The first thing on this circuit was the master bath outlet. Which
wasn't GFCI. So I'm hearing ya - but it just ain't GFCI.

It certainly is possible that they cheated, and never installed the GFCI,
but how have you determined that the master bath is the first stop

CB wrote:
OK - somewhere else online I just read that 15A circuits can only
handle 1800 watts and it had me wondering. I went & checked my wife's
hair dryer, and it's marked at 1875W. How in the heck is my 15A
breaker not tripping? We've lived here a year & a half and it hasn't
tripped.

15A x 120V = 1800W

At 30A the breaker might trip in 20 seconds (taken from a trip curve).
At 1875W the breaker might trip in a couple hours.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
CB wrote:
OK - somewhere else online I just read that 15A circuits can only
handle 1800 watts and it had me wondering. I went & checked my wife's
hair dryer, and it's marked at 1875W. How in the heck is my 15A
breaker not tripping? We've lived here a year & a half and it hasn't
tripped.

15A x 120V = 1800W

At 30A the breaker might trip in 20 seconds (taken from a trip curve). At
1875W the breaker might trip in a couple hours.

--
bud--

Yea, what Bud said. This is the reason that 20 amp circuits are now required
for bathroom outlets. To test for the presence of a GFCI device, use a
pigtail lamp socket. Touch one wire to the hot wire and the other to the
ground... it should trip any upstream GFCI

Yea, what Bud said. This is the reason that 20 amp circuits are now required
for bathroom outlets.

redoing a bathroom or kitchen today and not installing dedicated 20
amp circuits is just plain dumb.

too many power hungry devices, and new ones being created constantly.

its akin to upograding your main service from 60 amps to just
100........

one day you will regret cheaping out............

the cost of bath dedicated 20 amp GFCI circuit as compared to the
overall job cost to remodel the bath to studs is a minor
expense........

plus long term operation of a breaker over its rated limit ages them,
and sooner or later the breaker will trip faster. thats what they are
designed to do.

age to more sensitive........


one last point, even if the main service were maxed out, i would still
run a new dedicated 12 gauge wire for the bath outlets, and connect it
to another 15 or 20 amp circuit in basement or utility room till the
main service is upgraded or a sub panel installed........

its not ideal but costs little and is way easier than snaking a new
line to the bath when your fashion concious wife decides blow dryer
plus curling iron is the only way to do her hair........

that combo would trip the 15 amp breaker fast.....

save money on a less expensive sink, but do the wiring properly

wrote:
....

plus long term operation of a breaker over its rated limit ages them,
and sooner or later the breaker will trip faster. thats what they are
designed to do.

age to more sensitive........

Balderdash! We had this discussion only a few weeks ago--it just ain't
so--unless, of course, you can find a new design document since then.

--