Hi,
I was hoping some of you could shed personal opinion on my decision
to buy either stop or ball valves for the below detailed purpose.
I have/had several previously installed sillcocks in our house that
have no shutoff valves ahead of them. One of them froze and burst
last year so I went out and grabbed the first water flow control
valves I could find at the HW store, unfortunately they are gate
valves, and by design they leak somewhat in fully closed position.
Now I want to replace them with something that will work 100%.
Here's
the quandary:

With a rubber sealed type stop valve I could take out the mechanism
and repair it for many years to come, but in theory they restrict
flow
somewhat.

With a Ball valve, they don't restrict flow as much, but are not
serviceable (the ones I've seen) short of desolder/replace. Added
bonus is the 1/4 turn ease.

The application is outdoor water faucets, where I run 75 foot hoses
on
each one, and in some cases 150 ft for short term use.

Do you think that the extra restriction of a stop valve would amount
to anything significant or noticeable? Right now water supply at the
hose(s) is adequate. Serviceability and restriction are my two
highest priorities.

Thanks for your help.

"Comboverfish" wrote in message
unfortunately they are gate
valves, and by design they leak somewhat in fully closed position.

Wow, that's good information. I never knew some valves were designed to
leak. Can you tell us more about the reasoning behing that intended
leaking. When do I specify a leaking valve versus a non-leaking valve?

1) You are talking about an application where you operate (open or close)
the valve perhaps a few times a year.

2) Today, cheap ball valves are availble. Modern materials and
manufacturing make reliable ball valves last a LONG time without service.
Since they wear so slowly, by the time it needs "repair" it's likely a good
idea to just replace it.

3) In reasonable "home" sizes gate valves just have no cost or other
advantage over ball valves. That said, most gate valves I have seen in
"household" sizes just don't leak.

4) By "stop" valves, I assume you mean a "globe" valve with means of
draining the water from the line on one side. Usually there is a small
"cap" that screws off. If you use "freeze proof" sill cocks, that's
usually not necessary. Just remember to NOT leave a hose connected in
freezing weather.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On May 25, 5:36*am, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:
* * My choice is ball valves. *I have never had one fail to worry about
rebuilding.

"Comboverfish" wrote in message

...





Hi,
I was hoping some of you could shed personal opinion on my decision
to buy either stop or ball valves for the below detailed purpose.
I have/had several previously installed sillcocks in our house that
have no shutoff valves ahead of them. *One of them froze and burst
last year so I went out and grabbed the first water flow control
valves I could find at the HW store, unfortunately they are gate
valves, and by design they leak somewhat in fully closed position.
Now I want to replace them with something that will work 100%.
Here's
the quandary:

With a rubber sealed type stop valve I could take out the mechanism
and repair it for many years to come, but in theory they restrict
flow
somewhat.

With a Ball valve, they don't restrict flow as much, but are not
serviceable (the ones I've seen) short of desolder/replace. *Added
bonus is the 1/4 turn ease.

The application is outdoor water faucets, where I run 75 foot hoses
on
each one, and in some cases 150 ft for short term use.

Do you think that the extra restriction of a stop valve would amount
to anything significant or noticeable? *Right now water supply at the
hose(s) is adequate. *Serviceability and restriction are my two
highest priorities.

Thanks for your help.

--
Joseph Meehan

*Dia 's Muire duit- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I just had a cheap chinese ball valve fail to close, probably an HD
valve, ACE has good valves and Im pretty sure a lifetime warranty as
my ACE store told me to bring it back in even though it was my
negligence, It froze and burst. Ball valves are easy on, easy off, I
slid a 6" piece of pvc pipe on the handle, now its one finger to
operate

wrote in message

The problem with gate valves is that if you leave them partially open for
long
periods, the gate corrodes away into oblivion. You can turn the stem all
you
want, but there is no longer anything connected to it. Gate valves should
only
be used in the wide open, or completely closed positions.



Actually, gate valves are often used for throttling of the material in the
pipes. They are better than others because they require more turns from
open to close allowing more precise control. Yes, they do wear and corrode,
but that is a normal maintenance function in a process situation. Home use
is entirely different so, as you point out, full open or closed is best.

On May 25, 3:36*am, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:
* * My choice is ball valves. *I have never had one fail to worry about
rebuilding.

"Comboverfish" wrote in message

...





Hi,
I was hoping some of you could shed personal opinion on my decision
to buy either stop or ball valves for the below detailed purpose.
I have/had several previously installed sillcocks in our house that
have no shutoff valves ahead of them. *One of them froze and burst
last year so I went out and grabbed the first water flow control
valves I could find at the HW store, unfortunately they are gate
valves, and by design they leak somewhat in fully closed position.
Now I want to replace them with something that will work 100%.
Here's
the quandary:

With a rubber sealed type stop valve I could take out the mechanism
and repair it for many years to come, but in theory they restrict
flow
somewhat.

With a Ball valve, they don't restrict flow as much, but are not
serviceable (the ones I've seen) short of desolder/replace. *Added
bonus is the 1/4 turn ease.

The application is outdoor water faucets, where I run 75 foot hoses
on
each one, and in some cases 150 ft for short term use.

Do you think that the extra restriction of a stop valve would amount
to anything significant or noticeable? *Right now water supply at the
hose(s) is adequate. *Serviceability and restriction are my two
highest priorities.

Thanks for your help.

--
Joseph Meehan

*Dia 's Muire duit- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only mechanical failure I have ever had (other than packing leaks)
was a gate valve at the water heater inlet. A fairly new gate valve
(around 5 yoa) lost the 'gate' off its stem. Nice, as I had to
replace the water heater. Due to that failure, I had to drain the
entire pressure tank to replace it with a ball valve. I now have ball
valves in every place requiring a valve. Haven't had one faillure,
not even leaks.

Harry K

On May 25, 6:53*am, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Comboverfish" wrote in message
*unfortunately they are gate
valves, and by design they leak somewhat in fully closed position.

Wow, that's good information. I never knew some valves were designed to
leak. *Can you tell us more about the reasoning behing that intended
leaking. *When do I specify a leaking valve versus a non-leaking valve?

DAGS on gate valves. Tell my one year old valve (that I installed
with the guts removed to save them from heat damage during soldering)
that it shouldn't leak. Explain to it that even though it has only
been fully open twice and fully closed twice that it should still hold
water and not drip at a rate of about 1 gallon a day.

That should set the real world straight; a good explanation. Maybe
B&K/Mueller makes crappy valves. I'm not going to take another chance
after what I've seen and read.

On May 25, 7:07*am, "John Gilmer" wrote:
1) * You are talking about an application where you operate (open or close)
the valve perhaps a few times a year.

2) * Today, cheap ball valves are availble. * Modern materials and
manufacturing make reliable ball valves last a LONG time without service.
Since they wear so slowly, by the time it needs "repair" it's likely a good
idea to just replace it.

3) * In reasonable "home" sizes gate valves just have no cost or other
advantage over ball valves. * That said, most gate valves I have seen in
"household" sizes just don't leak.

4) *By "stop" valves, I assume you mean a "globe" valve with means of
draining the water from the line on one side. * Usually there is a small
"cap" that screws off. * If *you use "freeze proof" sill cocks, that's
usually not necessary. * Just remember to NOT leave a hose connected in
freezing weather.

Thanks for the response. I had no hose on the faucet and it still
burst. It was an older style sillcock than the one I replaced it
with, and the body was surprisingly thin, like the thinnest copper
pipe you can buy. The new valve looks much more durable, not that it
could prevent freeze damage under the worst conditions of course...

After installing the gate valve last year in the spring and leaving it
open, I closed it in late fall and opened the sillcock. Water dripped
out of it right from that point, so I had to close the sillcock.
Maybe some air stayed trapped between the two and helped out, but I
would much rather have a 100% sealing valve behind the sillcock.

I had bought several of these gate valves at once to swap guts in the
future, so I had the chance to look at an unused one yesterday. I
wasn't impressed, that's when I DAGS on their design and found they
aren't known for their tight seal capability.

"Comboverfish" wrote in message

DAGS on gate valves. Tell my one year old valve (that I installed
with the guts removed to save them from heat damage during soldering)
that it shouldn't leak. Explain to it that even though it has only
been fully open twice and fully closed twice that it should still hold
water and not drip at a rate of about 1 gallon a day.

That should set the real world straight; a good explanation. Maybe
B&K/Mueller makes crappy valves. I'm not going to take another chance
after what I've seen and read.

********************************

No need to DAGS, we have many of them in use at work. I know how they work
and they don't go bad after a year except in rare cases. I have some in use
with high pressure steam and they don't leak after 6 or 7 years. You
stated that by design they will leak. Just because you had a leaking valve,
it does not mean they all will.

On May 25, 11:55*am, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Comboverfish" wrote in message

DAGS on gate valves. *Tell my one year old valve (that I installed
with the guts removed to save them from heat damage during soldering)
that it shouldn't leak. *Explain to it that even though it has only
been fully open twice and fully closed twice that it should still hold
water and not drip at a rate of about 1 gallon a day.

That should set the real world straight; a good explanation. *Maybe
B&K/Mueller makes crappy valves. *I'm not going to take another chance
after what I've seen and read.

********************************

No need to DAGS, we have many of them in use at work. *I know how they work
and they don't go bad after a year except in rare cases. *I have some in use
with high pressure steam and they don't leak after 6 or 7 years. * You
stated that by design they will leak. *Just because you had a leaking valve,
it does not mean they all will.

I didn't mean to state that they are intended to leak by design;
despite my inaccurate wording, most people understood the intent. My
experience and what I've searched collaborate in that gate valves
unfortunately can't be expected to provide a 100% seal in the off
position. I'm glad yours at work are functioning well, but they
probably cost 100's of dollars a piece. Were talking about a $10
valve for home use. A stop (or globe) valve should work every time
with minimal and simple repairs every 5 to 10 years. Another poster's
idea of upsizing to 3/4 valves is what I'm currently considering.
Thanks for your response.

"Seems to me" that you need a "freeze proof" sillcock.

These are about 1' long (you can get 18" ones) and the idea is that the
actual valve is inside the house where it will not freeze. The sealing
surface is like most globe valves and the washers should be replaced when
the valve doesn't make a leak tight seal. It shuld also slope SLIGHTLY down
to the outside so that water completely drains.

Yes, the "shell" is quite thin but it only has to endure real pressure then
the sillcock is connect to a hose AND the hose is connected to a shut off.
These valves are quite solid from the connection to the household water up
to the actual water sealing surface.

"After installing the gate valve last year in the spring and leaving it
open, I closed it in late fall and opened the sillcock. Water dripped
out of it right from that point, so I had to close the sillcock.
Maybe some air stayed trapped between the two and helped out, but I
would much rather have a 100% sealing valve behind the sillcock."

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have "belt and suspenders but a freeze
proof and properly maintained (good washer) sillcock should not leak.

"I had bought several of these gate valves at once to swap guts in the
future, so I had the chance to look at an unused one yesterday. I
wasn't impressed, that's when I DAGS on their design and found they
aren't known for their tight seal capability."

Well, ball valves in "household" sizes are cheaper and more reliable than
gate valves. In either case, it's best to operate them wide open are
completely shut. If you want a metering valve, globe valves do quite well.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On May 25, 7:01*pm, "John Gilmer" wrote:
"Seems to me" that you need a "freeze proof" sillcock.

These are about 1' long (you can get 18" ones) and the idea is that the
actual valve is inside the house where it will not freeze. * *The sealing
surface is like most globe valves and the washers should be replaced when
the valve doesn't make a leak tight seal. *It shuld also slope SLIGHTLY down
to the outside so that water completely drains.

Yes, the "shell" is quite thin but it only has to endure real pressure then
the sillcock is connect to a hose AND the hose is connected to a shut off.
These valves are quite solid from the connection to the household water up
to the actual water sealing surface.

"After installing the gate valve last year in the spring and leaving it
open, I closed it in late fall and opened the sillcock. *Water dripped
out of it right from that point, so I had to close the sillcock.
Maybe some air stayed trapped between the two and helped out, but I
would much rather have a 100% sealing valve behind the sillcock."

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have "belt and suspenders but a freeze
proof and properly maintained (good washer) sillcock should not leak.

"I had bought several of these gate valves at once to swap guts in the
future, so I had the chance to look at an unused one yesterday. *I
wasn't impressed, that's when I DAGS on their design and found they
aren't known for their tight seal capability."

Well, ball valves in "household" sizes are cheaper and more reliable than
gate valves. * In either case, it's best to operate them wide open are
completely shut. * If you want a metering valve, globe valves do quite well.

Thanks, John. It is and was a freeze-proof sillcock, either an 8" or
10" model. Where it passes through the house it only needs to clear a
1.5" board and siding materials. I was surprised that the original
split open given our warmish basement temp during the winter, but it
did. At that point it wasn't worth debating over why it broke, I just
thought it wise to install a better quality unit along with shutoffs
on it and the remaining functioning outdoor valves. Too bad the
shutoffs don't work. I should have spent more time thinking about
valve design before grabbing them over stop valves.