AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some
period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the
traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of
fluorescents or diode or other bulbs.

In that regard, I have had a few questions come up in my mind based on
experiences
I have had wih non incandescent bulbs. I am seeking your opinons on
(and specific
brand / model #s of) possible replacement non incandescent bulbs in the
following
applicaions:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. Five
are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They all
work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs. What fluorescents or other non
incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

Note: All grounds are "good" on all 5 fixtures. "Hots" are wired
to hot inside boxes, and neutrals are wired to neutral in all boxes.

B. I have one motion detector fixture in a sheltered covered walkway
which
uses a pair of the very small quartz / halogen bulbs. What fluorescents
or other non incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

2. Outdoor Photocell Fixture. I have one outdoor photocell fixture
which uses a pair
of the standard outdoor incandescent flood lights. When I replace the
pair of incandescent
floods with outdoor fluorescents the fixture will not function.

Again, in this fixture, the ground is "good" and the "hot" is wired to
hot inside the
box, and neutral is wired to neutral in the box.

What fluorescents or other non incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

3. Appliance bulbs. While I have not yet tried to replace any of
these, there are
incandescent bulbs in the big upright freezer; the freezer part of the
side by side
refrgerator; the refrigerator itself; the electric oven, and the microwave.

While these are all very brief intermittant use applicaions and not really
the kind of application consuming a lot of power, I don't see an
exemption in the
legislation for these types of incandescent bulbs.

Has anyone already seen a non incandescent bulb for appliance applications?

Over the last 10 years or so I have replaced every incandescent bulb in the
house with a fluorescent bulb. My KWH cosumption has gone down a lot,
but the
constant rate increases by Portland General Electric (PGE) have wiped
out any actual
dollar savings on my monthly bill or the reduced KWH consumption for

I am not interested in your opinions as to whether banning incandescet
bulbs
is or is not good public policy. I'm just trying to get info on what
bulbs work in
specific locations / applicatons / fixtures.

Thank you.

Hi Jim,

Not to worry, you won't be left in the dark. Halogen lamps and a new,
forthcoming generation of high-efficiency incandescent (HEI) lamps are
direct, one-to-one, replacements for conventional, general service
incandescents.

For more information on GE's HEI announcement, see:
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s... 0&newsLang=en

Also, to be clear, incandescent lamps will not be "banned" as such;
rather, the least efficient ones will be removed for the marketplace,
similar to what took place with past legislation (e.g., EPAct, 1992).
Congress is proposing that the ones we use today be 25 to 30 per cent
more efficient by 2012 (100-watt lamps by 2012, 60-watt by 2013 and
40-watt by 2014).

Philips has a line of products that already meet this new standard;
e.g., their 70-watt Halogená Energy Saver produces the same amount of
light as a regular 100-watt bulb and lasts up to four times longer
(3,000 hours versus 750).

See:
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/.../10-30-07a.php

and

http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/...pdf/p-5901.pdf

Cheers,
Paul

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:44:01 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of fluorescents or diode or other bulbs....

On Fri 18 Jan 2008 09:44:01a, jJim McLaughlin told us...

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some
period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the
traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of
fluorescents or diode or other bulbs.

In that regard, I have had a few questions come up in my mind based on
experiences
I have had wih non incandescent bulbs. I am seeking your opinons on
(and specific
brand / model #s of) possible replacement non incandescent bulbs in the
following
applicaions:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house.
Five
are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They all
work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs. What fluorescents or other non
incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

Note: All grounds are "good" on all 5 fixtures. "Hots" are wired
to hot inside boxes, and neutrals are wired to neutral in all boxes.

B. I have one motion detector fixture in a sheltered covered
walkway
which
uses a pair of the very small quartz / halogen bulbs. What fluorescents
or other non incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

2. Outdoor Photocell Fixture. I have one outdoor photocell fixture
which uses a pair
of the standard outdoor incandescent flood lights. When I replace the
pair of incandescent
floods with outdoor fluorescents the fixture will not function.

Again, in this fixture, the ground is "good" and the "hot" is wired to
hot inside the
box, and neutral is wired to neutral in the box.

What fluorescents or other non incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

3. Appliance bulbs. While I have not yet tried to replace any of
these, there are
incandescent bulbs in the big upright freezer; the freezer part of the
side by side
refrgerator; the refrigerator itself; the electric oven, and the
microwave.

While these are all very brief intermittant use applicaions and not
really the kind of application consuming a lot of power, I don't see an
exemption in the
legislation for these types of incandescent bulbs.

Has anyone already seen a non incandescent bulb for appliance
applications?

Over the last 10 years or so I have replaced every incandescent
bulb in the
house with a fluorescent bulb. My KWH cosumption has gone down a lot,
but the
constant rate increases by Portland General Electric (PGE) have wiped
out any actual
dollar savings on my monthly bill or the reduced KWH consumption for

I am not interested in your opinions as to whether banning
incandescet
bulbs
is or is not good public policy. I'm just trying to get info on what
bulbs work in
specific locations / applicatons / fixtures.

Thank you.


I've basically done what you've done in replacing all possible incandescent
bulbs with comparable output CFLs. In my case, though, there are instances
where the bulbs themselves are part of the decorative feature of the
fixture and I refuse to replace them with an unattractive CFL of any ilk.
What I've done is stockpile replacements that will probably outlast me. :-)

I'm sure that going forward there will be fixture of a type comparable to
what you have that will work with CFLs. In the meantine, I would highly
recommend stashing as many incandescent and halogen bulbs away as you think
you'll need until that time comes.

I don't see any other realistic alternatives.,


--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Friday, 01(I)/18(XVIII)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
What you perceive, exists.
*******************************************

Hi Wayne,

The provisions related to incandescent lamps within the "Energy
Independence and Security Act of 2007 (HR6)" are limited to "general
service" only -- basically your standard A19 household lamp. "General
service" is defined as:

1) having a medium (E27) screw-base;
2) a light output of between 310 and 2600 lumens;
3) an operating voltage of between 110 and130V; and
4) a standard or "modified" light spectrum (e.g.., GE's "Reveal").

Incandescent lamps that are explicitly EXCLUDED from this regulation
include the following:

appliance
black light
bug
coloured
infrared
left-hand thread (used where lamps may be stolen)
marine / marine signal
mine service
plant light
reflector
rough service / shatter-resistant / vibration service
sign
silver bowl
showcase
3-way
traffic signal
G & T shape
AB, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S and M-14

When these regulations are phased-in starting in 2012, general service
lamps that produce approximately the same amount of light as a
traditional 100-watt incandescent will use no more than 72-watts; a
lamp with the output of a 75-watt incandescent will be capped at
53-watts, a 60-watt bulb at 43-watts and a 40-watt bulb at 29-watts.

As mentioned in my previous post, Philips currently sells general
service lamps that meet this new standard, and within the next few
years, GE expects to have lamps that will be four times more efficient
than the ones they sell now.

Cheers,
Paul

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:29:40 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

I've basically done what you've done in replacing all possible incandescent
bulbs with comparable output CFLs. In my case, though, there are instances
where the bulbs themselves are part of the decorative feature of the
fixture and I refuse to replace them with an unattractive CFL of any ilk.
What I've done is stockpile replacements that will probably outlast me. :-)

I'm sure that going forward there will be fixture of a type comparable to
what you have that will work with CFLs. In the meantine, I would highly
recommend stashing as many incandescent and halogen bulbs away as you think
you'll need until that time comes.

I don't see any other realistic alternatives.,

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. Five
are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They all
work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs.

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just to cold for
the florescent's to start up.

On Jan 19, 12:24*am, wrote:
1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

* *A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. *Five
are for
*pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. *They all
work fine with incandescent
*bulbs. *Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
*outdoor fluorescent bulbs. *

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold for
the fluorescents to start up.

Question: Is it because the sensor that detects, motion and/or whether
it is daytime or night requires a certain (although small) amount of
current flow through the lamps to operate correctly while waiting to
turn on the lamps?
Not seeing the resistance of the bulb which when the regular
incandescents are cold and not lit, is probably less than 100 ohms
each (two 100 watt bulbs in paralell = 50 ohms!) maybe the unit will
not work correctly.

In other words CFLs may be different and are incomptible?

I have to agree with the OP, regulations should not be made that will
cause problesm with existing hardware.

Personally we find that in our cool climate, where every month of the
year requires some home heating (ours is electric) especially in the
evenings when the lights are most likely to be on, that regualr
incandescents provide a small portion of the home heat required!

For example; much of the year our bathroom is heated mainly by the six
40 watt bulbs above the vanity mirror; each bulb costing about 25
cents. So that the 500 watt electric heater in that room rarely comes
on! Another advantage is that the lights tend to be turned off when
bathroom unoccupied, automatically saving electricity.

Since incandescents are so cheap it looks like we will lay in a stock
of a couple of hundred 40s, 60s and 100s, for a cost of about $50,
when the time comes. That should last about twenty years! And any
extra electricity used will be offset by using less (electricity) for
heating.

Using CFLs outside does make sense; any 'wasted' heat out there merely
heats the night air! But so far our experience with fairly cheap CFLs
in temperatures down to about minus 10 C has not been too good. My
neighbour has used them but I notice he retains one or two
incandescents near his front door; maybe doesn't want to get sued if
someone stumbles?

This CFL business is a good ide perhaps for an instance saving/
reduction in electcity consumption in some cases but not everyone
should be jumping on the bandwagon without understanding the number.

BTW just drove into this small Arabian Gulf capital city at night,
over 50 miles of highway, light traffic, brightly lit with double lamp
standard every couple of hundred feet. All electricity here generated
by burning fossil fuel; hell they pump it and refine it! Gasoline at
the pumps here is 23 cents per litre, about one dollar per US gallon.
Hundreds of miles of highways and roads with street lamps burning all
night, around the world; much of the electrcity generated by oil,
coal, etc. Why?????

Take a look at that 'The world at night' satellite picture to see how
much light-pollution we humans are wasting. |

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
Hi Jim,

Not to worry, you won't be left in the dark. Halogen lamps and a new,
forthcoming generation of high-efficiency incandescent (HEI) lamps are
direct, one-to-one, replacements for conventional, general service
incandescents.

For more information on GE's HEI announcement, see:
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s... 0&newsLang=en

Also, to be clear, incandescent lamps will not be "banned" as such;
rather, the least efficient ones will be removed for the marketplace,
similar to what took place with past legislation (e.g., EPAct, 1992).
Congress is proposing that the ones we use today be 25 to 30 per cent
more efficient by 2012 (100-watt lamps by 2012, 60-watt by 2013 and
40-watt by 2014).


Explain the difference.

Philips has a line of products that already meet this new standard;
e.g., their 70-watt Halogená Energy Saver produces the same amount of
light as a regular 100-watt bulb and lasts up to four times longer
(3,000 hours versus 750).

See:
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/.../10-30-07a.php

and

http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/...pdf/p-5901.pdf

Cheers,
Paul

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:44:01 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of fluorescents or diode or other bulbs....

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:16:55 -0600, Mike Dobony
wrote:

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
Hi Jim,

Not to worry, you won't be left in the dark. Halogen lamps and a new,
forthcoming generation of high-efficiency incandescent (HEI) lamps are
direct, one-to-one, replacements for conventional, general service
incandescents.

For more information on GE's HEI announcement, see:
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s... 0&newsLang=en

Also, to be clear, incandescent lamps will not be "banned" as such;
rather, the least efficient ones will be removed for the marketplace,
similar to what took place with past legislation (e.g., EPAct, 1992).
Congress is proposing that the ones we use today be 25 to 30 per cent
more efficient by 2012 (100-watt lamps by 2012, 60-watt by 2013 and
40-watt by 2014).


Explain the difference.

Sorry, Mike, I'm not sure I understand your question. The difference
between an incandescent/halogen lamp that provides "X" number of
lumens per watt versus one that provides 25 to 30 per cent more?

Cheers,
Paul

On Jan 18, 10:44*am, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:
AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some
period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the
traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of
fluorescents or diode or other bulbs.

In that regard, I have had a few questions come up in my mind based on
experiences
* I have had wih non incandescent bulbs. *I am seeking your opinons on
(and specific
brand / model #s of) possible replacement non incandescent bulbs in the
following
applicaions:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

* * * * A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. *Five
are for
* pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. *They all
work fine with incandescent
* bulbs. *Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
* outdoor fluorescent bulbs. *What fluorescents or other non
incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

* * * *Note: All grounds are "good" on all 5 fixtures. *"Hots" are wired
to hot inside boxes, and neutrals are wired to neutral in all boxes.

* * * * B. *I have one motion detector fixture in a sheltered covered walkway
which
uses a pair of the very small quartz / halogen bulbs. What fluorescents
or other non incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

2. *Outdoor Photocell Fixture. *I have one outdoor photocell fixture
which uses a pair
of the standard outdoor incandescent flood lights. *When I replace the
pair of incandescent
floods with outdoor fluorescents the fixture will not function.

Again, in this fixture, the ground is "good" and the "hot" is wired to
hot inside the
box, and neutral is wired to neutral in the box.

What fluorescents or other non incandecents will actually
work in this type of fixture?

3. *Appliance bulbs. *While I have not yet tried to replace any of
these, there are
incandescent bulbs in the big upright freezer; the freezer part of the
side by side
refrgerator; the refrigerator itself; the electric oven, and the microwave..

While these are all very brief intermittant use applicaions and not really
the kind of application consuming a lot of power, I don't see an
exemption in the
legislation for these types of incandescent bulbs.

Has anyone already seen a non incandescent bulb for appliance applications?

* * * * Over the last 10 years or so I have replaced every incandescent bulb in the
house with a fluorescent bulb. *My KWH cosumption has gone down a lot,
but the
constant rate increases by Portland General Electric (PGE) have wiped
out any actual
dollar savings on my monthly bill or the reduced KWH consumption for

* * * * I am not interested in your opinions as to whether banning incandescet
bulbs
is or is not good public policy. *I'm just trying to get info on what
bulbs work in
specific locations / applicatons / fixtures.

Thank you.

I use cfl floods in motion sensors, they all light so It is likely
your units design, I use X10 units. At 20f they take 2 minutes to get
full bright. 10f 3 minutes, 0 f, 5-6 mintues so they wont scare anyone
any you wont want it in your frige. They will get better but for now
in cold they take a long time to brighten. Popular mechanics magazine
did a review-test. In 4 years Leds might be alot better.

terry wrote:
On Jan 19, 12:24 am, wrote:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. Five
are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They all
work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs.

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold for
the fluorescents to start up.


Question: Is it because the sensor that detects, motion and/or whether
it is daytime or night requires a certain (although small) amount of
current flow through the lamps to operate correctly while waiting to
turn on the lamps?
Not seeing the resistance of the bulb which when the regular
incandescents are cold and not lit, is probably less than 100 ohms
each (two 100 watt bulbs in paralell = 50 ohms!) maybe the unit will
not work correctly.

In other words CFLs may be different and are incomptible?

I have to agree with the OP, regulations should not be made that will
cause problesm with existing hardware.

Personally we find that in our cool climate, where every month of the
year requires some home heating (ours is electric) especially in the
evenings when the lights are most likely to be on, that regualr
incandescents provide a small portion of the home heat required!

For example; much of the year our bathroom is heated mainly by the six
40 watt bulbs above the vanity mirror; each bulb costing about 25
cents. So that the 500 watt electric heater in that room rarely comes
on! Another advantage is that the lights tend to be turned off when
bathroom unoccupied, automatically saving electricity.

Since incandescents are so cheap it looks like we will lay in a stock
of a couple of hundred 40s, 60s and 100s, for a cost of about $50,
when the time comes. That should last about twenty years! And any
extra electricity used will be offset by using less (electricity) for
heating.

Using CFLs outside does make sense; any 'wasted' heat out there merely
heats the night air! But so far our experience with fairly cheap CFLs
in temperatures down to about minus 10 C has not been too good. My
neighbour has used them but I notice he retains one or two
incandescents near his front door; maybe doesn't want to get sued if
someone stumbles?

This CFL business is a good ide perhaps for an instance saving/
reduction in electcity consumption in some cases but not everyone
should be jumping on the bandwagon without understanding the number.

BTW just drove into this small Arabian Gulf capital city at night,
over 50 miles of highway, light traffic, brightly lit with double lamp
standard every couple of hundred feet. All electricity here generated
by burning fossil fuel; hell they pump it and refine it! Gasoline at
the pumps here is 23 cents per litre, about one dollar per US gallon.
Hundreds of miles of highways and roads with street lamps burning all
night, around the world; much of the electrcity generated by oil,
coal, etc. Why?????

Take a look at that 'The world at night' satellite picture to see how
much light-pollution we humans are wasting. |


I'm confused Terry.

Your E mail addy tells me ou are in canada.

I'm not sure how the US legislation will impact you.

Surelythe folks in Ottowa are not followig tose in DC?

terry wrote:
On Jan 19, 12:24 am, wrote:
1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house.
Five are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They
all work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs.

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold
for the fluorescents to start up.

snip

I have to agree with the OP, regulations should not be made that will
cause problesm with existing hardware.

I don't think they will.


snip


Using CFLs outside does make sense; any 'wasted' heat out there merely
heats the night air! But so far our experience with fairly cheap CFLs
in temperatures down to about minus 10 C has not been too good. My
neighbour has used them but I notice he retains one or two
incandescents near his front door; maybe doesn't want to get sued if
someone stumbles?

I've used two CFLs (11 watts) outside for years with no problem to ease
access for visitors and constant dusk to dawn illumination of our cars in
the drive to deter possible thefts.

This CFL business is a good ide perhaps for an instance saving/
reduction in electcity consumption in some cases but not everyone
should be jumping on the bandwagon without understanding the number.

BTW just drove into this small Arabian Gulf capital city at night,
over 50 miles of highway, light traffic, brightly lit with double lamp
standard every couple of hundred feet. All electricity here generated
by burning fossil fuel; hell they pump it and refine it! Gasoline at
the pumps here is 23 cents per litre, about one dollar per US gallon.
Hundreds of miles of highways and roads with street lamps burning all
night, around the world; much of the electrcity generated by oil,
coal, etc. Why?????

On the Right side of The Pond, our gas costs $2.10 per UK gallon!

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
terry wrote:
On Jan 19, 12:24 am, wrote:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house.
Five are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They
all work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs.

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold
for the fluorescents to start up.

snip


I'm confused Terry.

Your E mail addy tells me ou are in canada.

I'm not sure how the US legislation will impact you.

Surelythe folks in Ottowa are not followig tose in DC?

Probably. Here in the EU we are proposing to do similar to similar
timescales!

Clot wrote:
terry wrote:
On Jan 19, 12:24 am, wrote:
1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house.
Five are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They
all work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs.

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold
for the fluorescents to start up.

snip

I have to agree with the OP, regulations should not be made that will
cause problesm with existing hardware.

I don't think they will.


snip


Using CFLs outside does make sense; any 'wasted' heat out there
merely heats the night air! But so far our experience with fairly
cheap CFLs in temperatures down to about minus 10 C has not been too
good. My neighbour has used them but I notice he retains one or two
incandescents near his front door; maybe doesn't want to get sued if
someone stumbles?

I've used two CFLs (11 watts) outside for years with no problem to
ease access for visitors and constant dusk to dawn illumination of
our cars in the drive to deter possible thefts.

This CFL business is a good ide perhaps for an instance saving/
reduction in electcity consumption in some cases but not everyone
should be jumping on the bandwagon without understanding the number.

BTW just drove into this small Arabian Gulf capital city at night,
over 50 miles of highway, light traffic, brightly lit with double
lamp standard every couple of hundred feet. All electricity here
generated by burning fossil fuel; hell they pump it and refine it!
Gasoline at the pumps here is 23 cents per litre, about one dollar
per US gallon. Hundreds of miles of highways and roads with street
lamps burning all night, around the world; much of the electrcity
generated by oil, coal, etc. Why?????

On the Right side of The Pond, our gas costs $2.10 per UK gallon!

AArrgg! Just realised I missed a bit out on the calc. $9.50 per UK gallon -
I'd forgotten to convert litres to gallons!

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:13:01 -0800 (PST), terry
wrote:

On Jan 19, 12:24*am, wrote:
1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

* *A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. *Five
are for
*pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. *They all
work fine with incandescent
*bulbs. *Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
*outdoor fluorescent bulbs. *

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold for
the fluorescents to start up.

Question: Is it because the sensor that detects, motion and/or whether
it is daytime or night requires a certain (although small) amount of
current flow through the lamps to operate correctly while waiting to
turn on the lamps?

No. As far as I know the two circuits are not tied together this way.

terry wrote in news:b2237dfa-00c9-4c1e-a2d4-
:


Personally we find that in our cool climate, where every month of the
year requires some home heating (ours is electric) especially in the
evenings when the lights are most likely to be on, that regualr
incandescents provide a small portion of the home heat required!

A very tiny portion,negligible.I doubt you could measure it.


For example; much of the year our bathroom is heated mainly by the six
40 watt bulbs above the vanity mirror;

Not really. it's probably heated mainly by warm air from other parts of the
house.
Particularly since you say the lights are OFF when the room is vacant.

each bulb costing about 25
cents. So that the 500 watt electric heater in that room rarely comes
on!

Does your bathroom have it's own thermostat?


Another advantage is that the lights tend to be turned off when
bathroom unoccupied, automatically saving electricity.

Since incandescents are so cheap it looks like we will lay in a stock
of a couple of hundred 40s, 60s and 100s, for a cost of about $50,
when the time comes. That should last about twenty years! And any
extra electricity used will be offset by using less (electricity) for
heating.

Nonsense.

snip for brevity

BTW just drove into this small Arabian Gulf capital city at night,
over 50 miles of highway, light traffic, brightly lit with double lamp
standard every couple of hundred feet.

Sounds about standard,and how much traffic is on the roads doesn't matter
WRT the lighting of the roads at night.Road lighting is on at night
regardless of how much traffic.

All electricity here generated
by burning fossil fuel; hell they pump it and refine it! Gasoline at
the pumps here is 23 cents per litre, about one dollar per US gallon.
Hundreds of miles of highways and roads with street lamps burning all
night, around the world; much of the electrcity generated by oil,
coal, etc. Why?????

Well,they source their own oil,there's no shipping,and they own their
refineries.
No taxes on it,either.
And they may generate their electric power from their refineries 'waste'
gasses that have to be burned off.Or from heavy oil products unprofitable
for shiping elsewhere.

They earn enough on petro exports to GIVE their citizens a stipend.
(just like Alaska does for it's citizens,BTW)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold for
the fluorescents to start up.

Question: Is it because the sensor that detects, motion and/or whether
it is daytime or night requires a certain (although small) amount of
current flow through the lamps to operate correctly while waiting to
turn on the lamps?
Not seeing the resistance of the bulb which when the regular
incandescents are cold and not lit, is probably less than 100 ohms
each (two 100 watt bulbs in paralell = 50 ohms!) maybe the unit will
not work correctly.

In other words CFLs may be different and are incomptible?

I have to agree with the OP, regulations should not be made that will
cause problesm with existing hardware.

Personally we find that in our cool climate, where every month of the
year requires some home heating (ours is electric) especially in the
evenings when the lights are most likely to be on, that regualr
incandescents provide a small portion of the home heat required!

After doing a little research I believe you are correct. The motion
detectors use a triac as the switch and the filament is part of the
circuit.

wrote in :

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 14:13:01 -0800 (PST), terry
wrote:

On Jan 19, 12:24*am, wrote:
1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

* *A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my
house. *Five
are for
*pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs.
*They all
work fine with incandescent
*bulbs. *Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
*outdoor fluorescent bulbs. *

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just too cold
for the fluorescents to start up.

Question: Is it because the sensor that detects, motion and/or whether
it is daytime or night requires a certain (although small) amount of
current flow through the lamps to operate correctly while waiting to
turn on the lamps?

How can there be a current flow through the lamp if it's not turned on?
WHY would there be a current flow for an OFF lamp?

No. As far as I know the two circuits are not tied together this way.



every fluorescent is going to have some "resistance"(impedance) anyways.
the electronic "ballasts" used today have an impedance.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:44:01 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some
period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the
traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of
fluorescents or diode or other bulbs.

Thats when I plan to install all 1500W incandescent light bulbs
http://www.1000bulbs.com/500-to-1500...ht-Bulbs/10241

On Jan 18, 4:24 pm, wrote:

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just to cold for
the florescent's to start up.

I won't claim to understand it, but many motion detectors and timers
say "not for florescent" or "for incandescent lamps only" on them.
Some don't.

Chip C
Toronto

In , wrote:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. Five
are for
pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They all
work fine with incandescent
bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the
incandescent bulbs with
outdoor fluorescent bulbs.

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just to cold for
the florescent's to start up.

Fluorescents suffer wear from starting (unless they are the less
efficient, less common cold cathode type).

Compact fluorescents often start dim and take time to warm up.

Compact fluorescents not rated for use with dimmers can malfunction when
used with electronic switching devices not rated for fluorescents.

I do not recommend CFLs for motion sensor lights. Thankfully, as Paul
Eldridge noted, reflector incandescents are not affected by the upcoming
ban.

- Don Klipstein )

In , wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 08:44:01 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within
some
period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the
US of the
traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various
"flavors" of
fluorescents or diode or other bulbs.

Thats when I plan to install all 1500W incandescent light bulbs
http://www.1000bulbs.com/500-to-1500...ht-Bulbs/10241

Page not found

- Don Klipstein )

In article ,
jJim McLaughlin wrote:

I am seeking your opinons on (and specific brand / model #s of)
possible replacement non incandescent bulbs in the following
applicaions: snip
I am not interested in your opinions as to whether banning incandescet
bulbs is or is not good public policy. I'm just trying to get info on
what bulbs work in specific locations / applicatons / fixtures.

I am the poster of the original "Goodbye 75w..." thread that went on for weeks
and garnered hundreds of replies. It was an amazing thing to follow.

It is my understanding that the phase-out affects ONLY 75w and 100w
incandescent lamps and is due in 2012. If your query is of OTHER wattages,
you probably have little (currently) about which to be concerned.

The biggest advantage to CF (compact fluorescent) lamps, to me anyway, is
their considerably lower operating temperature. This is a distinct advantage
particularly in those fixtures where the lamp(s) is enclosed. It is the HEAT
from the incandescent lamps in these applications that "kill" them. IOW, they
are somewhat self-destructive.

I recently replaced the incandescent lamps in my outdoor fixtures with
brighter CFs. Although the CFs don't achieve full brightness in the cold for
a minute or two, I am satisfied with their performance enough that I intend to
keep them. I enjoy the increased light output and the fact that I can leave
them on overnight for probably less than it costs to run the incandescent
lamps for only a few hours.

Your query seems, with one exception, to involve automatically switched
(motion detecting and photocell) fixtures. You were articulate enough that I
am convinced there is no trouble with the fixtures. Given that and your
failed tests with fluorescent lamps, the only thing I can imagine is that
there is a loading problem. Rather, I suspect the CFs don't provide a
sufficient load for the switches to operate. It's just a WAG. Perhaps
someone with more expertise will reply.

In the case of motion detection-activated lampholders, I suspect that a
fluorescent wouldn't be appropriate. CFs are comparatively slower to achieve
full brightness than incandescents, particularly when they are cold, and I
wonder if the cycling would cause the CF to fail sooner.

Good luck. Please let us know if you find a solution.
--

JR

No project too small
All projects too big

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 07:15:00 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

[...]
It is my understanding that the phase-out affects ONLY 75w and 100w
incandescent lamps and is due in 2012. If your query is of OTHER wattages,
you probably have little (currently) about which to be concerned.

Hi Jim,

The phase-out applies to general service lamps (i.e., A19) with a
light output of between 310 and 2600 lumens, so 40 and 60-watt
incandescents are included; regulations pertaining to these lower
wattages take effect in 2014.

Cheers,
Paul

In ,
Jim Redelfs wrote in part:

It is my understanding that the phase-out affects ONLY 75w and 100w
incandescent lamps and is due in 2012. If your query is of OTHER wattages,
you probably have little (currently) about which to be concerned.

The biggest advantage to CF (compact fluorescent) lamps, to me anyway, is
their considerably lower operating temperature. This is a distinct
advantage particularly in those fixtures where the lamp(s) is enclosed.
It is the HEAT from the incandescent lamps in these applications that
"kill" them. IOW, they are somewhat self-destructive.

Actually, my experience is that compact fluorescents self-destruct from
their own heat in heat-confining fixtures more than incandescents do.

One reason is that despite being more efficient at producing light, CFLs
are more efficient than incandescents at producing non-radiant heat. What
incandescents mostly produce is infrared, most of which escapes the
fixture and produces heat outside the fixture.

I have a data point of a 42 watt CFL heating a fixture to a very
slightly higher temperature than a 60 watt incandescent does. So
replacing incandescents with CFLs will reduce fixture temperature less
than one may expect.

The other reason is that CFLs don't withstand high temperatures as well
as incandescents.

CFLs cooking themselves to death usually do so in a base-up orientation,
since the ballast is what usually fails from accumulated heat. There are
CFLs rated for use in recessed ceiling fixtures. There are also many
recessed ceiling fixtures that have their own ballasts and take pin-base
ballastless CFLs in order to avoid heat-related failures.

- Don Klipstein )

On Fri 18 Jan 2008 01:44:37p, Paul M. Eldridge told us...

Hi Wayne,

The provisions related to incandescent lamps within the "Energy
Independence and Security Act of 2007 (HR6)" are limited to "general
service" only -- basically your standard A19 household lamp. "General
service" is defined as:

1) having a medium (E27) screw-base;
2) a light output of between 310 and 2600 lumens;
3) an operating voltage of between 110 and130V; and
4) a standard or "modified" light spectrum (e.g.., GE's "Reveal").

Incandescent lamps that are explicitly EXCLUDED from this regulation
include the following:

appliance
black light
bug
coloured
infrared
left-hand thread (used where lamps may be stolen)
marine / marine signal
mine service
plant light
reflector
rough service / shatter-resistant / vibration service
sign
silver bowl
showcase
3-way
traffic signal
G & T shape
AB, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S and M-14

When these regulations are phased-in starting in 2012, general service
lamps that produce approximately the same amount of light as a
traditional 100-watt incandescent will use no more than 72-watts; a
lamp with the output of a 75-watt incandescent will be capped at
53-watts, a 60-watt bulb at 43-watts and a 40-watt bulb at 29-watts.

As mentioned in my previous post, Philips currently sells general
service lamps that meet this new standard, and within the next few
years, GE expects to have lamps that will be four times more efficient
than the ones they sell now.

Cheers,
Paul

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:29:40 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
wrote:

I've basically done what you've done in replacing all possible
incandescent bulbs with comparable output CFLs. In my case, though,
there are instances where the bulbs themselves are part of the
decorative feature of the fixture and I refuse to replace them with an
unattractive CFL of any ilk. What I've done is stockpile replacements
that will probably outlast me. :-)

I'm sure that going forward there will be fixture of a type comparable
to what you have that will work with CFLs. In the meantine, I would
highly recommend stashing as many incandescent and halogen bulbs away as
you think you'll need until that time comes.

I don't see any other realistic alternatives.,



Thanks, Paul. All very good informationn to know. I had not researched
this.

--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Monday, 01(I)/21(XXI)/08(MMVIII)
Today is: Martin Luther King's Birthday
*******************************************
What do you mean, *you're* a solipsist?
*******************************************

In ,
wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:13:25 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

Thats when I plan to install all 1500W incandescent light bulbs
http://www.1000bulbs.com/500-to-1500...ht-Bulbs/10241

Page not found

- Don Klipstein )

You're right. Remove the numbers at the end, or just click on correct
link below. Not sure how those numbers got on there?
http://www.1000bulbs.com/500-to-1500-Watt-Light-Bulbs

I found that I need to put a slash at the end of this to make it work.

I also found a link leading to this, and also to their "compact"
fluorescent equivalents:

http://www.1000bulbs.com/500-to-1500...Incandescents/

I believe other similar places such as bulbs.com has these.

- Don Klipstein )