As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

On Dec 27, 12:33*pm, Jeff B wrote:
As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. *Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. *In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. *The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. *But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! *No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. *This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? *When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

copy and pasted:

The hardwood flooring installation can proceed much faster when the
cabinets are not in place. Aside from the normal doorways and wall
offsets there is nothing to cut around. The flooring that is hidden
under cabinets gives you or a future homeowner lots of options should
they wish to change the cabinet layout.

Several things happen if you install flooring after the cabinets are
in place. Built-in appliances can become trapped for life. These
appliances come with leveling legs. When the legs are adjusted so that
the appliance is at its minimum height, it may not slide out of its
opening because it is blocked by the flooring. What happens if you
need a new dishwasher or ice maker?

When cabinets are in place the flooring installer needs to exercise
extreme caution while working. There is a great chance of scratching a
cabinet or two. Some pieces of hardwood flooring that go under the
cabinet toe kicks are impossible to nail and must be glued in place.
The installation is slow and tedious

On Dec 27, 10:33*am, Jeff B wrote:
As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. *Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. *In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. *The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. *But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! *No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. *This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? *When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

Hey Jeff.
I think it just makes thing easier if you did the floor first, then
the cabinets.If you are worried about scratching the floor, you could
always tape down protective plastic drop cloth or something else in
the vicinity where the toe kick will be since this is the spot where
you'll be making some adjustments with leveling and shimming.

On Dec 27, 11:58*am, Mikepier wrote:
On Dec 27, 10:33*am, Jeff B wrote:





As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. *Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. *In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. *The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. *But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! *No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. *This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? *When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

Hey Jeff.
I think it just makes thing easier if you did the floor first, then
the cabinets.If you are worried about scratching the floor, you could
always tape down protective plastic drop cloth or something else in
the vicinity where the toe kick will be since this is the spot where
you'll be making some adjustments with leveling and shimming.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll be checking with the installer but I'm now thinking "floors
first" is the proper sequence. I have friends who had their kitchen
reno-ed and the workers scratched the living sh*t out of their new
wood floors moving cabs and appliances around. I'll just have to use
old carpet/mats/cardboard/whatever to protect the floor.

--Jeff

I just had my kitchen done and I had them put the hardwood down before
the cabinets. This had advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage: The job went real quick, nothing to cut around. Didnt
have to worry about where to la pieces of plywood for the cabinets to
sit on

Disadvantage: Not so much appliance scratching, but countertop
installation marred the floor. It was a granite counter top and the
installers wheeled the counter top in on a little dolly that had teeny
weenie wheels that left an indentation in the floor all the way from
the front door to the counter. I was ****ed.

Neutral: Installing the appliances was a non-event. All the
appliances came in cardboard boxes and the delivery people cut the
boxes up and used them as padding over the floor when delivering. Then
when installing,, the cardboard pieces were used as sliders to slide
the appliances into position. Worked out great.

Overall: I'd put the floor down first. Then keep an eye on the
countertop guys and make them hand carry the counter top.

-dickm

Jeff B wrote:

On Dec 27, 11:58 am, Mikepier wrote:

On Dec 27, 10:33 am, Jeff B wrote:






As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

Hey Jeff.
I think it just makes thing easier if you did the floor first, then
the cabinets.If you are worried about scratching the floor, you could
always tape down protective plastic drop cloth or something else in
the vicinity where the toe kick will be since this is the spot where
you'll be making some adjustments with leveling and shimming.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I'll be checking with the installer but I'm now thinking "floors
first" is the proper sequence. I have friends who had their kitchen
reno-ed and the workers scratched the living sh*t out of their new
wood floors moving cabs and appliances around. I'll just have to use
old carpet/mats/cardboard/whatever to protect the floor.

--Jeff

I always install floors first. It allows the future
rearrangement of the cabinets should the owners desire. In
addition, it is much easier to install both the flooring and
the cabinets.

If I am worried about damage, I put down a protective layer of
cardboard. If the appliance installers scratch the living
**** out of the floor, then the appliance installers pay to
have the floor replaced or refinished.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

On Dec 27, 12:20*pm, Jeff B wrote:
On Dec 27, 11:58*am, Mikepier wrote:





On Dec 27, 10:33*am, Jeff B wrote:

As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. *Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. *In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. *The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. *But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! *No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. *This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? *When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

Hey Jeff.
I think it just makes thing easier if you did the floor first, then
the cabinets.If you are worried about scratching the floor, you could
always tape down protective plastic drop cloth or something else in
the vicinity where the toe kick will be since this is the spot where
you'll be making some adjustments with leveling and shimming.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll be checking with the installer but I'm now thinking "floors
first" is the proper sequence. *I have friends who had their kitchen
reno-ed and the workers scratched the living sh*t out of their new
wood floors moving cabs and appliances around. *I'll just have to use
old carpet/mats/cardboard/whatever to protect the floor.

--Jeff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would be worried also if someone else was doing the kitchen cabinet
install, but since you are installing it yourself, at least you will
go that extra mile to protect the floors.

In article ,
Jeff B says...

As part of my kitchen remodeling, I am having an installer (not me!)
put in hardwood flooring. Its the same boards that run in the hall
and dining room.

To avoid dinging and scratching the floor, I had always thought of
installing floor cabs and appliances BEFORE calling in the floor
installer. In other words, have the floor be the LAST job. The
appliances and cabs will sit on 3/4" plywood to get them up to final
floor height. But I just realized that if I take this approach, the
installer will have no way to nail under the recessed portion of the
cab! No room to get the nailer underneath and nail that end of the
board. This is probably not an issue for tile floor installation.

Is my logic correct? When installing wood flooring, what's the proper
sequence?

--Jeff

The correct thing to do is to: install wood floors never.

Try something actually practical, like tile.

Banty (hates this wood-on-the-kitchen floor trend)

The correct thing to do is to: �install wood floors never.

Try something actually practical, like tile.

Banty (hates this wood-on-the-kitchen floor trend)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


wood floors in kitchens may look nice when brand new but over time it
will get ugly.

tile is a much better choice

its worse if your using laminate wood floor, water will get between
the pieces (seams) and make it delaminate

The floor is not going to last forever. How are you going to get it out if
cabinets are sitting on top of it? How you going to cut it? What if you
want a different floor later? Running floor first is a dumb idea. It's
only done and suggested by people who don't know how to properly trim
flooring. The only time it makes a difference is down the road.

Steve

"Jeff B" wrote

I'll be checking with the installer but I'm now thinking "floors
first" is the proper sequence. I have friends who had their kitchen
reno-ed and the workers scratched the living sh*t out of their new
wood floors moving cabs and appliances around. I'll just have to use
old carpet/mats/cardboard/whatever to protect the floor.

--Jeff

And if anything can go wrong, it will. Installers are not known for their
delicacy. I'd rather just let the cabinet guys get out, then let the floor
guy have it.

Steve

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:29:37 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

The floor is not going to last forever. How are you going to get it out if
cabinets are sitting on top of it? How you going to cut it? What if you
want a different floor later? Running floor first is a dumb idea. It's
only done and suggested by people who don't know how to properly trim
flooring. The only time it makes a difference is down the road.

Agreed, and lest anyone argue that a dishwasher will be difficult to
pull out for repairs, the way to go there is to install the floor in
that space underneath the dishwasher, taking care to buy a DW that
will fit in the available space between the floor and the counter.
That's what we plan to do since our kitchen space has almost no
re-arrangement options, negating one of the arguments in favor of
flooring the entire room. We figure we're more likely to need to
replace the floor than rearrange the cabinets or gut the kitchen
($$!!).

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:22:10 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:
its worse if your using laminate wood floor, water will get between
the pieces (seams) and make it delaminate

I've heard this argument before, and it's not wrong, but it's also a
lot less compelling than you make it sound, based on my personal
experience with an older Armstrong laminate that has lasted 11+ years
in our kitchen by the back door, which is the main entrance to the
house and which sees a lot of rain and snow. We're not seeing
delamination, but we're seeing slight wear at the seams, hardly
visible. Sure, the stuff doesn't last forever, but it holds up awful
good for the price and convenience of installation. We'll be
installing new laminate in the spring as tile is just too hard, cold,
and slippery for our Great Lakes winter climate.

On Dec 27, 3:04�pm, KLS wrote:
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:22:10 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
its worse if your using laminate wood floor, water will get between
the pieces (seams) and make it delaminate

I've heard this argument before, and it's not wrong, but it's also a
lot less compelling than you make it sound, based on my personal
experience with an older Armstrong laminate that has lasted 11+ years
in our kitchen by the back door, which is the main entrance to the
house and which sees a lot of rain and snow. �We're not seeing
delamination, but we're seeing slight wear at the seams, hardly
visible. �Sure, the stuff doesn't last forever, but it holds up awful
good for the price and convenience of installation. �We'll be
installing new laminate in the spring as tile is just too hard, cold,
and slippery for our Great Lakes winter climate.

well the older laminated wood floor may hold up better than the new
cheaper stuff....

costs come down by cheaping out/

ceramic tile is available in all sorts of finishes from high gloss
slippery, to very rough no shine

vinyl tile is better than wood laminate. have a friend with that at
one year old you can see where the dog walks, claw marks in finish

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:29:37 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:

The floor is not going to last forever. How are you going to get it out if
cabinets are sitting on top of it? How you going to cut it? What if you
want a different floor later? Running floor first is a dumb idea. It's
only done and suggested by people who don't know how to properly trim
flooring. The only time it makes a difference is down the road.

Steve


Exactly!! I've never seen flooring under cabinets.

On Dec 27, 12:24*pm, dicko wrote:
I just had my kitchen done and I had them put the hardwood down before
the cabinets. This had advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage: *The job went real quick, nothing to cut around. *Didnt
have to worry about where to la pieces of plywood for the cabinets to
sit on

Disadvantage: *Not so much appliance scratching, but countertop
installation marred the floor. *It was a granite counter top and the
installers wheeled the counter top in on a little dolly that had teeny
weenie wheels that left an indentation in the floor all the way from
the front door to the counter. *I was ****ed.

Neutral: Installing the appliances was a non-event. *All the
appliances came in cardboard boxes and the delivery people cut the
boxes up and used them as padding over the floor when delivering. Then
when installing,, the cardboard pieces were used as sliders to slide
the appliances into position. *Worked out great.

Overall: I'd put the floor down first. Then keep an eye on the
countertop guys and make them hand carry the counter top.

-dickm

Thanks for the warning about the countertop installers. We're getting
granite as well. Assuming I get the floors installed first, I'll put
down some old carpeting I have plus plywood and they can roll the
dolly on that if its too heavy to carry.

And for the others posters, I'm doing the cabs and appliance
installation. Floors will be continuation of 3/4" hardwood already in
DR/LR/hall. Its not laminate. Depending on final cost estimate, I
may/may not put 3/4" plywood under cabs rather than installing
hardwood in an area no one sees.

I'll just have to make sure there is enough protection on the floor
when I push the stove and fridge into place. If it gets damaged,
there is no one else to yell at except my wife and the dog. I can
kick the dog but my wife kicks back alot harder!

--Jeff

KLS wrote:
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:22:10 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:
its worse if your using laminate wood floor, water will get between
the pieces (seams) and make it delaminate

I've heard this argument before, and it's not wrong, but it's also a
lot less compelling than you make it sound, based on my personal
experience with an older Armstrong laminate that has lasted 11+ years
in our kitchen by the back door, which is the main entrance to the
house and which sees a lot of rain and snow. We're not seeing
delamination, but we're seeing slight wear at the seams, hardly
visible. Sure, the stuff doesn't last forever, but it holds up awful
good for the price and convenience of installation. We'll be
installing new laminate in the spring as tile is just too hard, cold,
and slippery for our Great Lakes winter climate.

Well deserved caution is not derived from the stories of those who have not had
problems.

My parents spent several hundred dollars and I put in a full weekend's work
putting laminate into their kitchen (the kind that looks like tile rather than
wood). In less than two weeks the icemaker line leaked and a large area was
ruined. Now she has a nice new area rug to cover the damage on her brand new
floor.

I would never put laminate in an area that will get wet. It's just too big of a
gamble.

On Dec 27, 2:21 pm, Jeff B wrote:
On Dec 27, 12:24 pm, dicko wrote:



I just had my kitchen done and I had them put the hardwood down before
the cabinets. This had advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage: The job went real quick, nothing to cut around. Didnt
have to worry about where to la pieces of plywood for the cabinets to
sit on

Disadvantage: Not so much appliance scratching, but countertop
installation marred the floor. It was a granite counter top and the
installers wheeled the counter top in on a little dolly that had teeny
weenie wheels that left an indentation in the floor all the way from
the front door to the counter. I was ****ed.

Neutral: Installing the appliances was a non-event. All the
appliances came in cardboard boxes and the delivery people cut the
boxes up and used them as padding over the floor when delivering. Then
when installing,, the cardboard pieces were used as sliders to slide
the appliances into position. Worked out great.

Overall: I'd put the floor down first. Then keep an eye on the
countertop guys and make them hand carry the counter top.

-dickm

Thanks for the warning about the countertop installers. We're getting
granite as well. Assuming I get the floors installed first, I'll put
down some old carpeting I have plus plywood and they can roll the
dolly on that if its too heavy to carry.

And for the others posters, I'm doing the cabs and appliance
installation. Floors will be continuation of 3/4" hardwood already in
DR/LR/hall. Its not laminate. Depending on final cost estimate, I
may/may not put 3/4" plywood under cabs rather than installing
hardwood in an area no one sees.

I'll just have to make sure there is enough protection on the floor
when I push the stove and fridge into place. If it gets damaged,
there is no one else to yell at except my wife and the dog. I can
kick the dog but my wife kicks back alot harder!

--Jeff

I have done it both ways and prefer floor before cabs. In the event
of future remodelling, you will be glad you did. You won't likely
change the flooring before your next remodel, but if you did, you can
go over wood with just about anything. Or it would be no huge deal to
sawzall around the cabinets and leave the flooring under it if you had
to. As for wood or not in the kitchen, that is purely personal
choice. I can't imagine what these people are doing in their kitchens
that causes so much wear. I take my shoes off in the house,
personally, and an occasional spill is harmless. I just don't like
walking on tile, and I don't like the artificial look of laminate (or
the fact that it is cardboard). If you are using natural unfinished
hardwood, you can put the last coat of finish off until the very end.

On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:36:59 GMT, "Rick Brandt"
wrote:

KLS wrote:
On Thu, 27 Dec 2007 11:22:10 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:
its worse if your using laminate wood floor, water will get between
the pieces (seams) and make it delaminate

I've heard this argument before, and it's not wrong, but it's also a
lot less compelling than you make it sound, based on my personal
experience with an older Armstrong laminate that has lasted 11+ years
in our kitchen by the back door, which is the main entrance to the
house and which sees a lot of rain and snow. We're not seeing
delamination, but we're seeing slight wear at the seams, hardly
visible. Sure, the stuff doesn't last forever, but it holds up awful
good for the price and convenience of installation. We'll be
installing new laminate in the spring as tile is just too hard, cold,
and slippery for our Great Lakes winter climate.

Well deserved caution is not derived from the stories of those who have not had
problems.

My parents spent several hundred dollars and I put in a full weekend's work
putting laminate into their kitchen (the kind that looks like tile rather than
wood). In less than two weeks the icemaker line leaked and a large area was
ruined. Now she has a nice new area rug to cover the damage on her brand new
floor.

I did it the easier way: I deliberately bought a refrigerator WITHOUT
an icemaker.

to guy that mentioned eariler,
When the cabs are in how do you change the floors?
Take out the cabinets!
Most cabinets SHOULD be installed with screws. nails could just pull
apart.
If you are worried that your cabinet installers and appliance
installers are going to scratch your new floors, get someone else!! if
they don't care about your floors, do you think they will care if your
cabs are installed properly? think of it. If someone doesn't give a
sht about your floors, isn't their work also look like they don't give
a hoot about your installed cabinets.
Choose another contractor! if its cousin joe installing them as a good
favor~~ think twice too, would you tell cousin joe that you didn't
like his work so he should come back and fix them? What if it was a
cash job... do you think they will warranty their work?

my vote, floors then cabs then appliances. Watch TV... no pros do it
any other way.
cln

"SteveB" wrote:

The floor is not going to last forever.

A properly maintained hardwood floor is likely to last as long or longer than
the cabinets. In either case, they are more likely to get replaced for
redecorating reasons rather than functional reasons.

How are you going to get it out if
cabinets are sitting on top of it? How you going to cut it? What if you
want a different floor later?

A toe kick saw: http://www.craintools.com/pages/more.../795_more.html
This is a standard part of a floor installer's kit.

-- Doug

" wrote:

wood floors in kitchens may look nice when brand new but over time it
will get ugly.

We are about five years into our traditional 3/4" oak tongue and groove kitchen
floor and it looks like new. Like the original poster, our kitchen flows from
an area that already had hardwood floors, so it was kind of a natural. We have
a polyurethane finish. I don't think it looks as good as oil and wax, but is
resistant to anything but a flood that is allowed to soak in. Small spots and
scratches are easy to repair.

tile is a much better choice

It has the downside of being cold and hard on the feet. Hardwood is much easier
to stand on for a long time. Yes, rugs and mats can help. We thought about
tile, but we did not have enough sub floor, so would have had to raise the level
about a 1/2", which the wife found unacceptable.

-- Doug

"cln" wrote in message
...
to guy that mentioned eariler,
When the cabs are in how do you change the floors?
Take out the cabinets!
Most cabinets SHOULD be installed with screws. nails could just pull
apart.
If you are worried that your cabinet installers and appliance
installers are going to scratch your new floors, get someone else!! if
they don't care about your floors, do you think they will care if your
cabs are installed properly? think of it. If someone doesn't give a
sht about your floors, isn't their work also look like they don't give
a hoot about your installed cabinets.
Choose another contractor! if its cousin joe installing them as a good
favor~~ think twice too, would you tell cousin joe that you didn't
like his work so he should come back and fix them? What if it was a
cash job... do you think they will warranty their work?

my vote, floors then cabs then appliances. Watch TV... no pros do it
any other way.
cln

Those people on TV are far from pros. I wouldn't let them in my house to
sweep.

Steve

"Douglas Johnson" wrote

A properly maintained hardwood floor is likely to last as long or longer
than
the cabinets. In either case, they are more likely to get replaced for
redecorating reasons rather than functional reasons.

How are you going to get it out if
cabinets are sitting on top of it? How you going to cut it? What if you
want a different floor later?

A toe kick saw: http://www.craintools.com/pages/more.../795_more.html
This is a standard part of a floor installer's kit.

-- Doug

Hey, it's the OPs and everyone's personal project. They can do it floor
first, or cabinets first. People have cited their positions both
practices. So just do it how you want. I do.

Steve

Well deserved caution is not derived from the stories of those who have not had
problems.

My parents spent several hundred dollars and I put in a full weekend's work
putting laminate into their kitchen (the kind that looks like tile rather than
wood). �In less than two weeks the icemaker line leaked and a large area was
ruined. �Now she has a nice new area rug to cover the damage on her brand new
floor.

I did it the easier way: �I deliberately bought a refrigerator WITHOUT
an icemaker. �- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

water leak can be from anything, a leaking drain from above, a burst
water filter under sink, that happened to my dad, theres so many ways
for water to get where it shouldnt be.......

saying no icemakers to prevent leaks is like having leaky galvanized
pipe in your home and proudly reporting I replaced a 6 foot section.
without thought to all the other leaky areas

On Dec 28, 4:07Â*pm, " wrote:
Well deserved caution is not derived from the stories of those who have not had
problems.

My parents spent several hundred dollars and I put in a full weekend's work
putting laminate into their kitchen (the kind that looks like tile rather than
wood). �In less than two weeks the icemaker line leaked and a large area was
ruined. �Now she has a nice new area rug to cover the damage on her brand new
floor.

I did it the easier way: �I deliberately bought a refrigerator WITHOUT
an icemaker. �- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

water leak can be from anything, a leaking drain from above, a burst
water filter under sink, that happened to my dad, theres so many ways
for water to get where it shouldnt be.......

saying no icemakers to prevent leaks is like having leaky Â*galvanized
pipe in your home and proudly reporting I replaced a 6 foot section.
without thought to all the other leaky areas

Yeah I was thinking about that. If you are going to buy a fridge with
no icemaker, you might as well buy a dishwasher that uses microwave
energy to clean dishes instead of water.