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#1
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contract responsiblity question
I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He
hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy |
#2
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 12, 1:26 pm, "Art" wrote:
If the contract says he doens't get paid until it passes inspection he is screwed. On the other hand, depending on how the contract is written you may be responsible for the extra cost. Also the engineer may have some liability. Lawyers are expensive. Sit down with everyone and resolve the problem. wrote in message oups.com... I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks Art I thought it was something like that. If I remember correctly the contract mentions that he will pull the permit but I don't think there is anything about inspections. I will have to look at it again tonight. I agree, using a lawyer for something like this would be overkill. I'm just building a case for when I call the contractor back. If he won't do it I will just hire someone else to do the vents, more money but less headaches. Mike |
#3
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contract responsiblity question
If the contract says he doens't get paid until it passes inspection he is
screwed. On the other hand, depending on how the contract is written you may be responsible for the extra cost. Also the engineer may have some liability. Lawyers are expensive. Sit down with everyone and resolve the problem. wrote in message oups.com... I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy |
#4
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contract responsiblity question
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#6
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 12, 2:33 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
wrote Uh, Mike. Could you please post that ONE more time? Steve Just trying to get my point across! Actually I was having a problem with my browser at the time of the post.. |
#7
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 12, 1:33 pm, willshak wrote:
on 10/12/2007 12:41 PM said the following: I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy Did the builder leave all the attic rafters and ridge beam in place and just put up ceiling panels (sheetrock) on the original rafters along with the LVL beam as a decoration? I can't see where the ridge vent would now be blocked if he left everything in place, or he put in insulation without leaving an air path between the soffit vents and ridge vent. You have soffit vents, right? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No this isn't decoration, he cut the roof joists, replaced the old 2x6 ridge beam with a lvl and re-hung the joists on the lvl. The problem as that the lvl is significantly wider than the old 2x6 so it covers where the plywood sheating was cut to allow air flow. And no I don't have soffit vents and these weren't part of the contract so I'm responsible for them. |
#9
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contract responsiblity question
on 10/12/2007 2:27 PM willshak said the following:
on 10/12/2007 2:04 PM said the following: On Oct 12, 1:33 pm, willshak wrote: on 10/12/2007 12:41 PM said the following: I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy Did the builder leave all the attic rafters and ridge beam in place and just put up ceiling panels (sheetrock) on the original rafters along with the LVL beam as a decoration? I can't see where the ridge vent would now be blocked if he left everything in place, or he put in insulation without leaving an air path between the soffit vents and ridge vent. You have soffit vents, right? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No this isn't decoration, he cut the roof joists, replaced the old 2x6 ridge beam with a lvl and re-hung the joists on the lvl. The problem as that the lvl is significantly wider than the old 2x6 so it covers where the plywood sheating was cut to allow air flow. And no I don't have soffit vents and these weren't part of the contract so I'm responsible for them. OK. We got problems! You're gonna need to cut a wider ridge vent slot and a get a wider ridge vent. They make wide ridge vents, some as wide as 15.5 inches. See here for an example of various widths available. http://www.ebuild.com/products/produ...PriceAscMfrAsc or http://tinyurl.com/ysahdc I forgot to add. Maybe you can call the contractor back and have him do it. Maybe he'll cut you some slack on the price since he was partly, or completely, at fault. Perhaps you can have him do the soffits at the same time. Your house, your money. Hope it works out. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @ |
#10
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contract responsiblity question
wrote Uh, Mike. Could you please post that ONE more time? Steve |
#11
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contract responsiblity question
On 12 Oct, 14:04, wrote:
On Oct 12, 1:33 pm, willshak wrote: on 10/12/2007 12:41 PM said the following: I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy Did the builder leave all the attic rafters and ridge beam in place and just put up ceiling panels (sheetrock) on the original rafters along with the LVL beam as a decoration? I can't see where the ridge vent would now be blocked if he left everything in place, or he put in insulation without leaving an air path between the soffit vents and ridge vent. You have soffit vents, right? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No this isn't decoration, he cut the roof joists, replaced the old 2x6 ridge beam with a lvl and re-hung the joists on the lvl. The problem as that the lvl is significantly wider than the old 2x6 so it covers where the plywood sheating was cut to allow air flow. And no I don't have soffit vents and these weren't part of the contract so I'm responsible for them.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Totally uneducated opinion he Before the work was done, the structure was code compliant. An engineer drew up a set of plans that the contractor followed. I can see the contractor saying "Hey, I just followed instructions. I don't know anything about venting codes." In that case, the fault would fall to the engineer. What if you had contracted to have door put in a wall that had electrical wires in it? Would you expect that when the work was completed the wires would be runnning across the floor? Of course not. In both cases I would think that the engineer who drew up the plans would have taken the venting (or wires) into account and included dealing with the issue in the plans. OK, now if that's correct, the next thing to look at is this: If the original plans had dealt with the venting, what would have changed? Would roof vents simply had been added to the plan or would the existing vents been worked around in some fashion - and what would have been the cost differential? If roof vents would have been part of the original plan, then you would have been responsible for the cost anyway. If you have someone do them now, you have not been significantly harmed, so just go do it. However, if the original vents could have been left as is and a different type of beam used - at the same cost - then any extra cost should be the responsibility of whoever caused the structure to be non- compliant - i.e. the engineer. Bottom line - if the "fix" will cost you more than an original plan that dealt with the venting issue in the first, the engineer should bear that cost. |
#12
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contract responsiblity question
DerbyDad03 wrote:
.... Bottom line - if the "fix" will cost you more than an original plan that dealt with the venting issue in the first, the engineer should bear that cost. I don't necessarily agree--if the engineer was only contracted to design the structure and wasn't provided the other information, his responsibility started and stopped w/ providing adequate construction details compliant w/ local codes. He can not be expected to compensate for conditions/constraints unknown to him owing to that information having not been provided to him or beyond the scope of his requested effort -- which it sounds like was the structural design of a beam of sufficient strength and construction detail for same. It would not be at all unreasonable for him to expect the HVAC/vent/electrical/etc. was in the purvey of someone else given his design for the cathedral ceiling structure. -- |
#13
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contract responsiblity question
dpb wrote:
Sounds like it wasn't addressed in the design that the contractor hired the engineer to do the structural but probably didn't provide him with the necessary inputs to know where the venting locations were to design around existing or account for them for the incorporation of existing locations. That it was in a gc's scope to ensure that would also be somewhat dependent on how contract was done -- were you the gc subletting work or was the contractor the actual gc? That may have bearing depending on local rules/law... I'm wondering if the OP will post a link to the contract so that we can see what the contract and bid actually stated? Scan them and put it onto tinypics or some such website. As you stated, it would be nice to see if the contractor hired was limited, by bid, to a specific scope of work, or if he had the authority to subcontract with other trades. Did the bid specify just the structural work with the OP acting as GC? Or was the bid for a GC to develop the scope of the work needed to be in compliance with all affected codes? If I hire someone to re-do my ceiling, and that is all my bid called for, then the only permit needed would be the specifications for the things needed to properly support the ceiling. The contractor wouldn't assume responsibility for oversight of roofing contractors or HVAC specialists. -- Dave www.davebbq.com |
#14
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contract responsiblity question
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#16
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contract responsiblity question
Even if the contractor was only responsible for the framing, if he
framed it so it can't be ventilated, then he framed it incorrectly and it should be fixed. Whether the engineer shares any liability is not clear--did he provide construction drawings, or did he just size the beam etc? When I've encountered this situation, I drop the beam by and inch or so to allow air to pass over it. (that is the points of the rafters are above the beam). Probably too late for that.... You (or he) might be able to sawzall a bevel on the LVL to allow air to pass over the beam (talk to the engineer first, though). Either that or drill some holes through the upper corner of the beam. The other option is to look into a hot roof. That is going to depend on your local building department. Many people, myself included, feel that roof ventilation is not always needed, IF the vapor barrier is properly installed. Mind you, I'm talking about a cold climate here. However, if your building department doesn't agree, it doesn't matter what my opinion. |
#17
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contract responsiblity question
marson wrote:
Even if the contractor was only responsible for the framing, if he framed it so it can't be ventilated, then he framed it incorrectly and it should be fixed. Whether the engineer shares any liability is not clear--did he provide construction drawings, or did he just size the beam etc? To whom and to what message are you replying? You need to include a bit of said message. As to contractor liability, it applies only if the contractor were acting as the general contractor. If the homeowner were acting as such, then it is the homeowner's responsibility to hire the appropriate trade to assure adequate ventilation. That is why it is important to see the bid specifications sheet and contract. I hesitate to take the word of someone when it is easy for that person, whether purposeful or not, to paint only a partial picture of the situation. -- Dave www.davebbq.com |
#18
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 13, 12:16 pm, "Dave Bugg" wrote:
marson wrote: Even if the contractor was only responsible for the framing, if he framed it so it can't be ventilated, then he framed it incorrectly and it should be fixed. Whether the engineer shares any liability is not clear--did he provide construction drawings, or did he just size the beam etc? To whom and to what message are you replying? You need to include a bit of said message. As to contractor liability, it applies only if the contractor were acting as the general contractor. If the homeowner were acting as such, then it is the homeowner's responsibility to hire the appropriate trade to assure adequate ventilation. That is why it is important to see the bid specifications sheet and contract. I hesitate to take the word of someone when it is easy for that person, whether purposeful or not, to paint only a partial picture of the situation. -- Davewww.davebbq.com Time and again on this group you see advice about things like "bid specification sheets" and "contracts". I would bet a bid specification sheet doesn't exist. Lucky if there was a written contract. Did a licensed architect draw the plans? Bet not. It might even be ambiguous who exactly the GC is. This is small time residential, not big city commercial. I've been a carpenter/ contractor for most of my adult life (I'm pushing 50) and the number of bid specification sheets I've seen on small remodelling jobs like the OP is describing is very, very small. Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea, just saying that it rarely happens. I still say if the contractor pulled the permit, he should be responsible for framing it in such a way that the roof will meet code. Maybe that wouldn't stand up in court, but that's the argument I'd use with the contractor. |
#19
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contract responsiblity question
marson wrote:
Time and again on this group you see advice about things like "bid specification sheets" and "contracts". I would bet a bid specification sheet doesn't exist. Lucky if there was a written contract. Did a licensed architect draw the plans? Bet not. It might even be ambiguous who exactly the GC is. I would tend to agree with those observations. This is small time residential, not big city commercial. You are absolutely correct. Wouldn't you agree, though, that the size of the job is not really relevant to the point of contract specificity and what the bid sheet called for? If anything, this small time residential job smacks of off-the-cuff-planning by the owner, which would leave the owner responsible. In my mind, the real point is this: who was responsible to hire, fire and evaluate what trades were needed for the entire job. Who was responsible to evaluate the roofing system for ventilation, the ceiling for remodeling, and the oversight for code compliance for the drawings involved? To me it sounded like the poor schmuck who was hired was hired to do one thing only: to remodel the ceiling. He wasn't asked to evaluate the roofing or ventilation or insulation or even the design. It wouldn't be the contractor's fault that the owner was ignorant of what actually needed to be done and neglected to hire the proper people. And the bid sheet/contract would specify if the contractor was responsible, and being paid for, the overall oversight, evaluation, planning, drawings, etc. I've been a carpenter/ contractor for most of my adult life (I'm pushing 50) and the number of bid specification sheets I've seen on small remodelling jobs like the OP is describing is very, very small. Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea, just saying that it rarely happens. I know. And I think you'd agree that because of that, serious misunderstandings occur. Ignorant owners try to hang the blame on the contractor when the job is different than what the owner had in his mind because the contractor isn't a mind reader and ESP is a poor substitute for written specificaions. I still say if the contractor pulled the permit, he should be responsible for framing it in such a way that the roof will meet code. But was a permit pulled? Who actually pulled it? And why would the local planning dept. even issue a permit, when presented with the drawings and specs they normally require, which would clearly demonstrate a failure of the framing to meet code for roofing ventilation? To me, this just doesn't make any sense. Maybe that wouldn't stand up in court, but that's the argument I'd use with the contractor. Let me ask this: what if the contractor was told to conform to a specific design the OP had in mind? What if the OP told the contractor that that specific design was already approved and the OP was taking care of the permit? What do we know of the actual conversations that took place between the OP and the contractor? The answer is that we don't have a clue, except for the recollections of the OP. Without a bid sheet and/or contract, it's the OP's word against the contractor's word. I still can't get past the fact that a supposed permit was issued even though the specs and drawings, which must accompany an application for that type of permit, would have shown a code violation. It just doesn't make sense. -- Dave www.davebbq.com |
#20
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 13, 1:55 pm, "Dave Bugg" wrote:
marson wrote: Time and again on this group you see advice about things like "bid specification sheets" and "contracts". I would bet a bid specification sheet doesn't exist. Lucky if there was a written contract. Did a licensed architect draw the plans? Bet not. It might even be ambiguous who exactly the GC is. I would tend to agree with those observations. This is small time residential, not big city commercial. You are absolutely correct. Wouldn't you agree, though, that the size of the job is not really relevant to the point of contract specificity and what the bid sheet called for? If anything, this small time residential job smacks of off-the-cuff-planning by the owner, which would leave the owner responsible. In my mind, the real point is this: who was responsible to hire, fire and evaluate what trades were needed for the entire job. Who was responsible to evaluate the roofing system for ventilation, the ceiling for remodeling, and the oversight for code compliance for the drawings involved? To me it sounded like the poor schmuck who was hired was hired to do one thing only: to remodel the ceiling. He wasn't asked to evaluate the roofing or ventilation or insulation or even the design. It wouldn't be the contractor's fault that the owner was ignorant of what actually needed to be done and neglected to hire the proper people. And the bid sheet/contract would specify if the contractor was responsible, and being paid for, the overall oversight, evaluation, planning, drawings, etc. I've been a carpenter/ contractor for most of my adult life (I'm pushing 50) and the number of bid specification sheets I've seen on small remodelling jobs like the OP is describing is very, very small. Not saying it wouldn't be a good idea, just saying that it rarely happens. I know. And I think you'd agree that because of that, serious misunderstandings occur. Ignorant owners try to hang the blame on the contractor when the job is different than what the owner had in his mind because the contractor isn't a mind reader and ESP is a poor substitute for written specificaions. I still say if the contractor pulled the permit, he should be responsible for framing it in such a way that the roof will meet code. But was a permit pulled? Who actually pulled it? And why would the local planning dept. even issue a permit, when presented with the drawings and specs they normally require, which would clearly demonstrate a failure of the framing to meet code for roofing ventilation? To me, this just doesn't make any sense. Maybe that wouldn't stand up in court, but that's the argument I'd use with the contractor. Let me ask this: what if the contractor was told to conform to a specific design the OP had in mind? What if the OP told the contractor that that specific design was already approved and the OP was taking care of the permit? What do we know of the actual conversations that took place between the OP and the contractor? The answer is that we don't have a clue, except for the recollections of the OP. Without a bid sheet and/or contract, it's the OP's word against the contractor's word. I still can't get past the fact that a supposed permit was issued even though the specs and drawings, which must accompany an application for that type of permit, would have shown a code violation. It just doesn't make sense. -- Davewww.davebbq.com Well Dave, I think if you read the original post, it's pretty clear that a permit was pulled by the contractor. Building departments probably vary a lot in the detail they require, but where I live, you could get this permit with a hand drawn sketch. They might want you to indicate "vented soffit" and "vented ridge" and the R value of the insulation you plan to use, but they would never require drawings detailing how the venting should get past the beam. That is left up to the contractor. In fact, the other winter I framed two new houses with cathedral ceilings, and it was pretty much me and the building inspector figuring out how to ventilate it. I will concede that the owner could have some culpability. When I hear the words "cathedral ceiling" my very first thought is how am I going to insulate it to code and provide ventilation. Someone didn't do that on this one and that is a screw up. I guess it comes down to who was calling the shots on this one. |
#21
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 12, 12:41 pm, wrote:
I hired a contractor to put in a cathederal ceiling in my house. He hired a structural engineer, pulled the permit, removed the old ceiling and put the new cieling up to the ridge line of my roof After it was done the inspector said that the LVL beam that was put up is blocking the ridge vent now and roof venting is needed. When I called the contractor he tells me that since my contract with him was just for the framing he is not responsible for putting in the new ventilation. My question is since the venting was fine before the cathederal was put in and he pulled the permit shouldn't he be responsible for fixing the problem identified by the building inspector? btw this is Massachusetts if it matters. Thanks in advance for any help Mike McCarthy I talked with the Building Inspector and got a better explanation about what's going on. It appears that when the new roof was put on about 10 years ago they only cut the plywood on one side of the Ridge cap. This wasn't an issue because there was an Attic, the air could flow from one side to the other easily. Now that the Cathederal is all the way up to the rafters Air can't get from one side to the other so the side that hasn't been cut needs to be fixed. The contractor was right that he was not responsible. Thanks to all for posting. Mike McCarthy |
#22
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contract responsiblity question
I'm adding your story to my long list of reasons why I hate cathedral
ceilings. |
#23
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contract responsiblity question
On Oct 15, 11:36 am, wrote:
I'm adding your story to my long list of reasons why I hate cathedral ceilings. Which makes no sense, because you can screw up construction on anything and it has nothing to do with it being a cathedral ceiling. Regarding the OP's problem, I agree with those that say there is far too little info here to know who is at fault. One key is that it appears the contractor in question was only responsible for framing. There should have been a drawing done to get the building permit. Who did this drawing and what did it show? What does the contract say? I someon else did the drawing and the contractor only framed it as shown, then I'd say he is not legally responsible. However, an experienced framer that has been doing this type of work should have spotted it and said something. As someone else pointed out, with a cathedral ceiling, ventilation is one of the things that is always considered upfront. Typically, you spec baffles to be placed under the sheathing to keep a couple inch channel free of insulation from soffits to peak. And then, obviously, you need some means for it to exit there, usually a ridge vent. It sounds to me like this whole job may have been poorly defined and it may be difficult to pin down any one person as responsible. |
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