There have been a number of discussions regarding recirculating cooler
basement air during the AC season. The following is an article
(stolen without permission) from http://ludwig-associates.com/. Jerry
Ludwig runs a Home Inspection business in western New York and answers
homeowner's questions in a weekly newspaper column.

I'm guessing this may start another lively discussion...

Headline: You Don't Want Basement Air Upstairs
Democrat and Chronicle
Column # 27-07
July 7, 2007

Dear Jerry: I have always wondered if there is a way to circulate the
cool, basement air to the upper two floors of the house during the
warm summer months. I have a standard air conditioning system blown by
my forced air furnace. I have pretty good success at cooling the first
and second floors of the house, but every time I go into the basement,
I am amazed at how cool it is and I wonder how I can get some of that
air upstairs.

I do not have any of the dampers open in the basement and there are no
cold air returns directly into the furnace in the basement. Is there a
system that can blow the cool air into the furnace? Is it worthwhile
to put one or more cold air vents into the system in the basement?
Any advice would be helpful and may save me some money.
M. C., via email


There are two basic reasons why your HVAC system does not have
basement returns. One, in our climate, the systems are designed
primarily for heating. This is normally true whether or not one adds
central cooling. Thus, circulating air on the first and second floors
is the primary focus of the system's design.

However, the second and most important reason why there are not cold
air returns in the basement is one of safety. Because most heating
systems rely on natural fuels to provide heat, keeping returns away
from potential hazards in the basement is an important design
criteria.

If there was a malfunction in the furnace's fuel delivery system (gas
leak, oil leak, etc.) fumes from the basement could easily be spread
throughout the house creating a potentially dangerous situation. And,
should a fire develop in the basement, an open return could spread the
fire and/or smoke rapidly throughout the house.

In addition, since the laundry, wood shop, and other places that may
be home to potential combustibles and chemicals such as bleach,
paints, sawdust, etc., are often located in the basement, keeping
these areas separate from the furnace and air conditioning systems is
a very good idea.

Finally, the basement can be damp and musty, even on a good day.
Spreading this tainted air around the house can create indoor moisture
and odor issues during winter months.

Supply registers are often used to supply the basement with warm
circulating air during winter months and I usually recommend that the
warm air registers be kept open during the winter months. Finished
basement rooms are often supplied with warm air registers, although
often some type of auxiliary heat may be necessary to keep the rooms
at a comfortable temperature.

My advice is to allow the basement to remain cool during the summer
while using the air conditioning system as necessary to keep the main
floors comfortable.

I agree and the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

He makes a number of assumptions that may or may not be true. In northern
climates, the basement is normally heated and requires an air return for
this purpose. If the basement is made into a liveable area, you will need
returns to ensure that the heat is distributed.

Many of his assumptions could cause some people who do not know much about
the operation of their house and climate to be afraid of the basement air,
with the variables in construction styles, age of building and many, many
other conditions, the advise really only applies to a limited number of
homes and the rest he doesn't cover -- as it would require a whole book.


"Charles" wrote in message
. ..

I agree and the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

... the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-)

Nick

wrote in message
...
... the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-)

No, just that I tried it (anecdotal evidence is not really evidence, of
course).

Southwest PA ... a little town ...
http://www.city-data.com/city/Roscoe-Pennsylvania.html

Lived there for 5 years and really sweltered in August ... a low altitude
river town with no breeze ... surrounding hills on both sides. The cool
basement air was enticing ... but it just didn't work.

Moved to the top of a hill ... highly recommended! Also, AC is highly
recommended. BTW, the radon gas thing originated in SW PA.

Charles wrote:

... the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-)

No, just that I tried it (anecdotal evidence is not really evidence, of
course).

Southwest PA ... a little town ...

NREL says the average deep ground temp in Pittsburgh is 50.3 F. A 2400 ft^2
basement floor with a 2 Btu/h-F-ft^2 airfilm resistance could contribute
(75-50.3)2400x2 = 118.6K Btu/h (10 tons) of cooling to a 75 F house before
it warms up. The ASHRAE HOF gives 8 Btu-in/h-F-ft^2 as a conservative soil
conductance for earth cooling.

Nick

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 06:47:46 -0700, DerbyDad03
wrote:

I have two answers for this, one on topic and one somewhat off topic,
that should follow within 12 hours.

(stolen without permission) from http://ludwig-associates.com/. Jerry

in western New York

Democrat and Chronicle
Column # 27-07
July 7, 2007

There are two basic reasons why your HVAC system does not have
basement returns.One, in our climate, the systems are designed
primarily for heating. This is normally true whether or not one adds
central cooling. Thus, circulating air on the first and second floors
is the primary focus of the system's design.

Despite his first sentence, and that this is a common way of thinking,
this is not a reason why it doesn't have them. What he says is that
even though houses have heating and air conditioning, heating is the
primary goal in laying out the ducts, so they didn't consider air
connditioning. That's not a reason, that's a failure. Or it's a
reason why the failure is not so bad. But it's not a *reason* they
don't include those ducts.

However, the second and most important reason why there are not cold
air returns in the basement is one of safety.

The ONLY cold air return is my house is in my basement. The basement
has two rooms and the return is on the other side of the wall from the
furnace, and the door is 3/4 of the way along the wall from the
furnace, so it's almost as far as it can be, but it's still in the
basement.

Because most heating
systems rely on natural fuels to provide heat, keeping returns away
from potential hazards in the basement is an important design
criteria.

I guess I'm at risk.
...
Finally, the basement can be damp and musty, even on a good day.

Maybe a basement can be, but my basement is almost never damp or
musty, even on a humid day. Even the day after the drain has backed
up. Let alone a normal day.

Spreading this tainted air around the house can create indoor moisture
and odor issues during winter months.

24 years, and I've only had an odor for 6 weeks at the end of last
winter, and only from one vent. For this I should give up 24 years of
cooling?

Supply registers are often used to supply the basement with warm
circulating air during winter months and I usually recommend that the
warm air registers be kept open during the winter months. Finished
basement rooms are often supplied with warm air registers, although
often some type of auxiliary heat may be necessary to keep the rooms
at a comfortable temperature.

Even with a warm air register? Basements don't get as warm in the
summer or as cold in the winter.

My advice is to allow the basement to remain cool during the summer
while using the air conditioning system as necessary to keep the main
floors comfortable.

Will he pay for it?

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 18:17:18 -0400, "Charles"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
... the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-)

No, just that I tried it (anecdotal evidence is not really evidence, of
course).

No that's not true, it is evidence. One example is not the best
evidence, compared to two or ten examples, but it's still evidence. In
addtion, you lived there and had the opportunity to pay close
attention. OT3H, you probably didn't do actual measurements.

Lately, on tv, the script sometimes implies the only evidence is
printed evidence, or sound or video recordings. That's not true. One
person's testimony of what he saw or heard is still evidence.

And OTOH for the last 60 or more years, we've heard the caustic
remark, "That's just circumstantial evidence", as if that means it's
no good. In fact, most criminal convictions in the US and elsewhere
are based entirely on circumstantial evidence. Which is everything
but eyewitness testimony of someone who saw the crime committed.
Paperwork, autopsies, blood evidence, all crime scene evidence, all
lab work, ballistics tests, everything that a witness didnt' see or
hear is circumstantial.

If you see someone A walk into a room carrying a gun, hear a bang, and
you walk in to find B on the floor, and A holding a smoking gun, that
is all circumstantial evidence. Does that mean it's not good in our
system? (IIUC, in death penalty cases in Israelite and Jewish cases
under Biblical law, circumstantial evidence is not admissable, but
that's not the law we use. Although maybe that is where people got
the idea it is never any good.)

http://www.city-data.com/city/Roscoe-Pennsylvania.html

Lived there for 5 years and really sweltered in August ... a low altitude
river town with no breeze ... surrounding hills on both sides. The cool
basement air was enticing ... but it just didn't work.

Moved to the top of a hill ... highly recommended!

I live in a tiny valley next to a small stream. The hills around me
within 200 yards are probably no more than 20 ft. high, and no more
than 40 feet within 400 yards. But I've started to think this is why
I have so little breeze. I love my little stream which turns 90
degrees just a few feet past my house, and the little bit of woods
around it, and was amazed to find it next to a townhouse. I've still
never see a better lot in this town, even for a full size house.

But I rarely have a breeze.

Also, AC is highly
recommended.

Thought I would need it today. It was 98 but only 26% humidity in
Baltimore and not so bad.

BTW, the radon gas thing originated in SW PA.

I did test for that 20 years ago and I passed. Do I have to test
again?

On Jul 9, 3:17 pm, "Charles" wrote:
wrote in message

...

... the amount of cooling is miniscule in any case.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? :-)

No, just that I tried it (anecdotal evidence is not really evidence, of
course).

Southwest PA ... a little town ...http://www.city-data.com/city/Roscoe-Pennsylvania.html

Lived there for 5 years and really sweltered in August ... a low altitude
river town with no breeze ... surrounding hills on both sides. The cool
basement air was enticing ... but it just didn't work.

Moved to the top of a hill ... highly recommended! Also, AC is highly
recommended. BTW, the radon gas thing originated in SW PA.

I have often considered intalling a vent in the basement. Would have
to operate it manually (once/season).

My practice is to turn the furnace fan on continuous plus a box
hallway fan (hanging from the ceiling) the combination keeps the AC
from coming hours later than it would without the fan. If I had the
basement vent, it would help even more.

Harry K

"mm" wrote in message
...

Spreading this tainted air around the house can create indoor moisture
and odor issues during winter months.

24 years, and I've only had an odor for 6 weeks at the end of last
winter, and only from one vent. For this I should give up 24 years of
cooling?


You can't smell CO!!!!!

But it can/will KILL you!!!!!!

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
.. .

Spreading this tainted air around the house can create indoor moisture
and odor issues during winter months.

24 years, and I've only had an odor for 6 weeks at the end of last
winter, and only from one vent. For this I should give up 24 years of
cooling?

You can't smell CO!!!!!

But it can/will KILL you!!!!!!

And you can buy a CO detector at Home Depot for thirty bucks.


That WON'T protect you from low level CO poisoning!!!!!!

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote:

... you can buy a CO detector at Home Depot for thirty bucks.

That WON'T protect you from low level CO poisoning!!!!!!

Why would you say that?

Nick

In article , kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , kjpro @
usenet.com wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
.. .

Spreading this tainted air around the house can create indoor moisture
and odor issues during winter months.

24 years, and I've only had an odor for 6 weeks at the end of last
winter, and only from one vent. For this I should give up 24 years of
cooling?

You can't smell CO!!!!!

But it can/will KILL you!!!!!!

And you can buy a CO detector at Home Depot for thirty bucks.

That WON'T protect you from low level CO poisoning!!!!!!

What makes you think that?

For that matter, what makes you think that CO levels too low to trigger a
detector constitute "poisoning"? You seem to think that any level at all, no
matter how low, is a deadly poison. Maybe you ought to take a CO meter with
you in the car as you commute to work, and see how much CO you're breathing
from other vehicle's exhaust fumes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:43:22 -0400, mm
wrote:


However, the second and most important reason why there are not cold
air returns in the basement is one of safety.

The ONLY cold air return is my house is in my basement. The basement

I was wrong about this. There is an air return 2 1/2 floors directly
above the one near the basement floor. (for heating and cooling, if in
practice it works that way.) Both grills are in the stairwell, one
near the ceiling on the second floor and the other near the floor in
the triangular space below the top half of the basement stairs.


has two rooms and the return is on the other side of the wall from the
furnace, and the door is 3/4 of the way along the wall from the
furnace, so it's almost as far as it can be, but it's still in the
basement.

On Jul 11, 12:10 pm, mm wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:43:22 -0400, mm
wrote:



However, the second and most important reason why there are not cold
air returns in the basement is one of safety.

The ONLY cold air return is my house is in my basement. The basement

I was wrong about this. There is an air return 2 1/2 floors directly
above the one near the basement floor. (for heating and cooling, if in
practice it works that way.) Both grills are in the stairwell, one
near the ceiling on the second floor and the other near the floor in
the triangular space below the top half of the basement stairs.



has two rooms and the return is on the other side of the wall from the
furnace, and the door is 3/4 of the way along the wall from the
furnace, so it's almost as far as it can be, but it's still in the
basement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not an HVAC specialist but that sounds wierd to me. Just 'shade-
treeing' it I would think only the bottom one would be effective
(coolest air and nearest the furnace) as it would be the easiest air
to move.

Harry K

On Jul 9, 9:47 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
There have been a number of discussions regarding recirculating cooler
basement air during the AC season. The following is an article
(stolen without permission) fromhttp://ludwig-associates.com/. Jerry
Ludwig runs a Home Inspection business in western New York and answers
homeowner's questions in a weekly newspaper column.

I'm guessing this may start another lively discussion...

Headline: You Don't Want Basement Air Upstairs
Democrat and Chronicle
Column # 27-07
July 7, 2007

Dear Jerry: I have always wondered if there is a way to circulate the
cool, basement air to the upper two floors of the house during the
warm summer months. I have a standard air conditioning system blown by
my forced air furnace. I have pretty good success at cooling the first
and second floors of the house, but every time I go into the basement,
I am amazed at how cool it is and I wonder how I can get some of that
air upstairs.

I do not have any of the dampers open in the basement and there are no
cold air returns directly into the furnace in the basement. Is there a
system that can blow the cool air into the furnace? Is it worthwhile
to put one or more cold air vents into the system in the basement?
Any advice would be helpful and may save me some money.
M. C., via email

There are two basic reasons why your HVAC system does not have
basement returns. One, in our climate, the systems are designed
primarily for heating. This is normally true whether or not one adds
central cooling. Thus, circulating air on the first and second floors
is the primary focus of the system's design.

However, the second and most important reason why there are not cold
air returns in the basement is one of safety. Because most heating
systems rely on natural fuels to provide heat, keeping returns away
from potential hazards in the basement is an important design
criteria.

If there was a malfunction in the furnace's fuel delivery system (gas
leak, oil leak, etc.) fumes from the basement could easily be spread
throughout the house creating a potentially dangerous situation. And,
should a fire develop in the basement, an open return could spread the
fire and/or smoke rapidly throughout the house.

In addition, since the laundry, wood shop, and other places that may
be home to potential combustibles and chemicals such as bleach,
paints, sawdust, etc., are often located in the basement, keeping
these areas separate from the furnace and air conditioning systems is
a very good idea.

Finally, the basement can be damp and musty, even on a good day.
Spreading this tainted air around the house can create indoor moisture
and odor issues during winter months.

Supply registers are often used to supply the basement with warm
circulating air during winter months and I usually recommend that the
warm air registers be kept open during the winter months. Finished
basement rooms are often supplied with warm air registers, although
often some type of auxiliary heat may be necessary to keep the rooms
at a comfortable temperature.

My advice is to allow the basement to remain cool during the summer
while using the air conditioning system as necessary to keep the main
floors comfortable.

One word: Radon.

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:40:43 -0700, Harry K
wrote:

On Jul 11, 12:10 pm, mm wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 19:43:22 -0400, mm
wrote:



However, the second and most important reason why there are not cold
air returns in the basement is one of safety.

The ONLY cold air return is my house is in my basement. The basement

I was wrong about this. There is an air return 2 1/2 floors directly
above the one near the basement floor. (for heating and cooling, if in
practice it works that way.) Both grills are in the stairwell, one
near the ceiling on the second floor and the other near the floor in
the triangular space below the top half of the basement stairs.
...

Not an HVAC specialist but that sounds wierd to me. Just 'shade-
treeing' it I would think only the bottom one would be effective
(coolest air and nearest the furnace) as it would be the easiest air
to move.

Yes, it seems that way to me too, and in my last poast I was going to
start in on theorizing like you're doing when I remembered that when I
removed the grill for painting a few years ago, it was dirty.

So I just got up now and the new one, which is taller than it is wide
and goes from about 5'6" to just short of the 8 foot ceiling, is dirty
too, and almost the same amount of dirty everywhere. Even nearest the
ceiling was about as dirty as 2 feet below that.

It is obviously being used during the heating season, and for all I
know during AC use too.

Harry K

In article .com, Pat wrote:

One word: Radon.

Oh, please. Radon isn't anywhere nearly the health hazard that it's made out
to be. And in a basement with a poured concrete floor, it's basically a
non-issue.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I think a better answer for the intelligent DIYer is to weigh your
situation and act upon it.

We cooled using basement air for a dozen years. I turned the furnace
pilot off for the summer and just opened the bottom of the furnace. We
didn't have lint in the basement, so that wasn't a problem either. A
little hokey, but it worked. I closed up the bottom of the furnace
during heating season, of course! Just don't do anything stupid.

And I agree that once you've sucked the cool air out of the basement, it
becomes almost as warm as the rest of the house, except that the ground
keeps on cooling the basement to some extent.