Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but I ran
out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now. Starting fluid didn't
work. In May I put in a new plug, air filter, oil change. Any ideas?

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 06:46:17 -0500, Steve
wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but I ran
out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now. Starting fluid didn't
work. In May I put in a new plug, air filter, oil change. Any ideas?

If it has an in-line fuel filter. has that been changed in ten years?

--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 06:46:17 -0500, Steve
wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but I ran
out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now. Starting fluid didn't
work. ...

Starting fluid "didn't work" means what, specifically? If it didn't
even fire, you clearly have no spark. Start checking the shutoff ground
shunt isn't still on and work from there...

If it fired but wouldn't run, means a fuel problem--may have gotten dirt
in bottom of tank in carb jets or as Oren mentioned filter finally
completely clogged...

--

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:49:00 -0400, Meat Plow
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 06:46:17 -0500, Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but I ran
out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now. Starting fluid didn't
work. In May I put in a new plug, air filter, oil change. Any ideas?

Try another plug before you do anything else.


If you ran out of gas, then you need to assure that the fuel is now
getting to the chamber. Look for gas fumes coming out the exhaust as
you pull. You should smell it too. If not, choke the hell out of
it. That may require you to place your hand over the intake filter
while pulling.

Once you get gas spray coming out the exhaust, replace the plug with
a new one because you have most likely fouled the old one and it won't
fire until it dries.
..

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:45:50 -0500, dpb wrote:

Start checking the shutoff ground
shunt isn't still on and work from there...

My mower doesn't have a shutoff ground. One day I was mowing damp
grass (I know..I know) and the mower suddenly died. Pulled the cord a
few times and nothing. I started looking around. A piece of wet grass
had landed in such a way that one end was on the plug terminal and one
end was touching the cylinder head. Not really thinking this was the
cause for the engine to stop, I removed it and pulled the cord. She
fired right up. I figured the wet grass acted as a shutoff ground...

--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:45:50 -0500, dpb wrote:

Start checking the shutoff ground
shunt isn't still on and work from there...

My mower doesn't have a shutoff ground. ...

Electric start? Key? Built into the throttle control not the old
manual "push against the plug" type? I've seen very few small (as in
10-12 hp or less that don't -- actually can't think of one that I have
seen that doesn't). Inquiring minds and all...

I mentioned it to OP as it might just be a DOH! moment...

--

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:33:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:45:50 -0500, dpb wrote:

Start checking the shutoff ground
shunt isn't still on and work from there...

My mower doesn't have a shutoff ground. ...

Electric start? Key? Built into the throttle control not the old
manual "push against the plug" type? I've seen very few small (as in
10-12 hp or less that don't -- actually can't think of one that I have
seen that doesn't). Inquiring minds and all...

I have a lever handle that needs to held down for the engine to run.
When released the engine shuts off.

I mentioned it to OP as it might just be a DOH! moment...

It was a good point - you made.
--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:33:27 -0500, dpb wrote:

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:45:50 -0500, dpb wrote:

Start checking the shutoff ground
shunt isn't still on and work from there...
My mower doesn't have a shutoff ground. ...
Electric start? Key? Built into the throttle control not the old
manual "push against the plug" type? I've seen very few small (as in
10-12 hp or less that don't -- actually can't think of one that I have
seen that doesn't). Inquiring minds and all...

I have a lever handle that needs to held down for the engine to run.
When released the engine shuts off.
....

Oh, yeah, the new crap...

I'm fortunate to not have anything new enough to have required those.
If I did own one, it would have promptly been "fixed"...

--

On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:28:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

I have a lever handle that needs to held down for the engine to run.
When released the engine shuts off.

Oh, yeah, the new crap...

Circa '91


I'm fortunate to not have anything new enough to have required those.
If I did own one, it would have promptly been "fixed"...

I have a rag tied on the handle and slip it into place. I'm not going
to stop and start a mower just to pick up something in the cutting
path. The red shop rag keeps here running.
--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 11:28:08 -0500, dpb wrote:

I have a lever handle that needs to held down for the engine to run.
When released the engine shuts off.
Oh, yeah, the new crap...

Circa '91
....

That would be "new" in my lawnmower stable...

But I don't have a push-type, either...

--

Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but I ran
out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.

That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I hope.
Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.

Starting fluid didn't
work. In May I put in a new plug, air filter, oil change. Any ideas?

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.

That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I hope.
Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.

Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...

He said he ran it empty so certainly wasn't the issue...

--

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:26:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.
That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I hope.
Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.
Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...

He said he ran it empty so certainly wasn't the issue...

When it ran out of gas, it either sucked up water or sediment from the bottom of
the tank. Time to pull the carb and clean it.

Undetermined...he said it wouldn't start on starter fluid which would
strongly indicate no spark. But, of course, he could have also plugged
up the jets so badly as to not get any into the engine, but that's
getting really hard...

Not enough info...

--

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:52:00 -0500, dpb wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:26:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.
That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I hope.
Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.
Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...

He said he ran it empty so certainly wasn't the issue...
When it ran out of gas, it either sucked up water or sediment from the bottom of
the tank. Time to pull the carb and clean it.
Undetermined...he said it wouldn't start on starter fluid which would
strongly indicate no spark. But, of course, he could have also plugged
up the jets so badly as to not get any into the engine, but that's
getting really hard...

Not enough info...

The engine which seemed to be running okay ceased to work after running the tank
dry. Old proverb: When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you look for
zebras.

Yeahbut we don't even know these events were closely connected in time...

--

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:57:15 -0500, dpb wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:52:00 -0500, dpb wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:26:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.
That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I hope.
Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.
Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...

He said he ran it empty so certainly wasn't the issue...
When it ran out of gas, it either sucked up water or sediment from the bottom of
the tank. Time to pull the carb and clean it.
Undetermined...he said it wouldn't start on starter fluid which would
strongly indicate no spark. But, of course, he could have also plugged
up the jets so badly as to not get any into the engine, but that's
getting really hard...

Not enough info...
The engine which seemed to be running okay ceased to work after running the tank
dry. Old proverb: When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you look for
zebras.
Yeahbut we don't even know these events were closely connected in time...

"Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now. "

Old proverb: When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you look for
zebras.

I'd forgotten he actually said that and not disagreeing other than the
starter fluid is a puzzle to me even tho the first assumption would be
fuel...

Second proverb -- "stuff happens".

--

dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:

Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.


That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I
hope. Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.


Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...

No, its not. You have no idea what you are talking about.



He said he ran it empty so certainly wasn't the issue...

--

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:

Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd
pull. Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started
fine, but I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.


That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I
hope. Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.


Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...

No, its not. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Well, let a manufacturer talk...

Unless the gasoline is stored in a hot environment and not a closed
container, since gasoline blends have anti-oxidants and stabilizing
additives in them to begin with, the problem is not particularly severe.
While it might be "good practice" to drain an engine over winter, not
doing so isn't a major issue, particularly over winter months. Small
engine manufacturers recommend the practice mostly as a conservative
practice.

From a manufacturer (Chevron in this case)...

"The gasoline light ends needed for easy starting have the same tendency
to vaporize in storage as they do in an engine. _If_ the storage
container is not tightly sealed, _some_ of the light ends gradually will
be lost. Too great a loss decreases the gasoline's ability to start an
engine.

.... keeping the container almost full of gasoline and controlling the
temperature fluctuations will minimize the loss of light ends, the
exposure of the gasoline to air, and the contamination of the gasoline
with water.

Oxidation

Except for any added oxygenates, gasoline is made up almost entirely of
hydrocarbons–molecules constructed from the building blocks of elemental
carbon and hydrogen. _Hydrocarbons, as a class, are chemically stable
molecules_.

However, there are types of hydrocarbons (olefins and diolefins) that
can combine slowly with the oxygen in the air ("oxidize") at ambient
temperatures. The products of the reaction are larger molecules,
collectively called "gum."

The gum-forming reactions become faster as the temperature of the
gasoline increases. This is why this bulletin recommends controlling the
temperature of stored gasoline.

Most gasolines contain negligible amounts of gum when they are
manufactured, and most contain special chemicals ("stabilizers") to
retard gum formation. It is the stabilizers that make it possible to
store Chevron gasolines for a year when the conditions are good.

Soluble Gum
....
Because the Federal Environmental Protection Agency recognizes that fuel
system deposits increase emissions, they require all gasolines to
contain a deposit-control additive. All deposit-control additives keep
deposits from forming; ...

Other Issues

Storage, including storage involving gum formation, does not change the
bulk properties and most of the performance characteristics of gasoline
(excluding the characteristics affected by the gum itself). For example,
storage does not change a gasoline's anti-knock index (octane) or energy
content. However, these properties will change if the storage is
accompanied by evaporative loss. The evaporation of light ends decreases
a gasoline's antiknock index and increases its energy content.

Federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as
well or better than conventional gasolines. The regulations require
reformulated gasolines to have less light ends and less olefins
(federal, later; California, now) than conventional gasolines. As
explained above, it is the oxidation of olefins that leads to gum
formation. Reformulated gasolines also contain oxygenates. The common
oxygenates are stable molecules that do not form gums."

--

Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:19:41 -0700, jJim McLaughlin wrote:

dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:

Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd pull.
Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started fine, but
I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.

That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I
hope. Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.

Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...
No, its not. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Just had my son mow with last year's gas (StaBil added) and the mower
worked fine.

And, would undoubtedly have "worked fine" w/o the added stabilizer, too
(although perhaps a little harder-starting initially)...

--

Let me repeat, since you are too stupid to understand when
told something only once....

"You don't know what you are talking about..."

And your reference, without actual citation, to a Chevron site, is
irrelevant.

The materials you quoted are premised upon laboratory perfect conditions of
fuel storage. Those conditions do not exist in my garage or my storage
shed,
don't exist in the OPs garage or storage shed, and exist only in your
immagination
in your garage or storage shed.

You don't know what you are talking about...


dpb wrote:
jJim McLaughlin wrote:

dpb wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:

Steve wrote:

Have a 10 year old Troy Bilt. It has always started on the 3rd
pull. Saturday I mowed my front yard, then then Sunday it started
fine, but I ran out of gas. Filled it up and it won't start now.



That gas you put in was new fresh gas with Stabil or such in it I
hope. Surely you didn't
uselast years gas.



Last year's gas, other than being just a little harder starting
initially, is just fine...


No, its not. You have no idea what you are talking about.


Well, let a manufacturer talk...

Unless the gasoline is stored in a hot environment and not a closed
container, since gasoline blends have anti-oxidants and stabilizing
additives in them to begin with, the problem is not particularly severe.
While it might be "good practice" to drain an engine over winter, not
doing so isn't a major issue, particularly over winter months. Small
engine manufacturers recommend the practice mostly as a conservative
practice.

From a manufacturer (Chevron in this case)...

"The gasoline light ends needed for easy starting have the same tendency
to vaporize in storage as they do in an engine. _If_ the storage
container is not tightly sealed, _some_ of the light ends gradually will
be lost. Too great a loss decreases the gasoline's ability to start an
engine.

... keeping the container almost full of gasoline and controlling the
temperature fluctuations will minimize the loss of light ends, the
exposure of the gasoline to air, and the contamination of the gasoline
with water.

Oxidation

Except for any added oxygenates, gasoline is made up almost entirely of
hydrocarbons–molecules constructed from the building blocks of elemental
carbon and hydrogen. _Hydrocarbons, as a class, are chemically stable
molecules_.

However, there are types of hydrocarbons (olefins and diolefins) that
can combine slowly with the oxygen in the air ("oxidize") at ambient
temperatures. The products of the reaction are larger molecules,
collectively called "gum."

The gum-forming reactions become faster as the temperature of the
gasoline increases. This is why this bulletin recommends controlling the
temperature of stored gasoline.

Most gasolines contain negligible amounts of gum when they are
manufactured, and most contain special chemicals ("stabilizers") to
retard gum formation. It is the stabilizers that make it possible to
store Chevron gasolines for a year when the conditions are good.

Soluble Gum
...
Because the Federal Environmental Protection Agency recognizes that fuel
system deposits increase emissions, they require all gasolines to
contain a deposit-control additive. All deposit-control additives keep
deposits from forming; ...

Other Issues

Storage, including storage involving gum formation, does not change the
bulk properties and most of the performance characteristics of gasoline
(excluding the characteristics affected by the gum itself). For example,
storage does not change a gasoline's anti-knock index (octane) or energy
content. However, these properties will change if the storage is
accompanied by evaporative loss. The evaporation of light ends decreases
a gasoline's antiknock index and increases its energy content.

Federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as
well or better than conventional gasolines. The regulations require
reformulated gasolines to have less light ends and less olefins
(federal, later; California, now) than conventional gasolines. As
explained above, it is the oxidation of olefins that leads to gum
formation. Reformulated gasolines also contain oxygenates. The common
oxygenates are stable molecules that do not form gums."

--

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Let me repeat, since you are too stupid to understand when
told something only once....

I'm smart enough to know when I hear BS...

"You don't know what you are talking about..."

And your reference, without actual citation, to a Chevron site, is
irrelevant.

It was about the fourth or fifth google hit and I'm sure there are links
directing you there from the front page. I figured w/ your superior
intellect it wouldn't be hard to find all the corroborating
evidence/information on gasoline storage you would care to have...

The materials you quoted are premised upon laboratory perfect conditions of
fuel storage. ...

Actually, not. It was a general discussion of longer-term storage of
gasoline in general for the average customer/homeowner -- pretty much
OP's description.

The bottom line can be summarized as under only reasonably controlled
conditions (moderate temperatures and closed containers) gasoline can be
stored for a year w/ little degradation.

You don't know what you are talking about...

So be it. PLONK...

--

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Let me repeat, since you are too stupid to understand when
told something only once....

"You don't know what you are talking about..."

And your reference, without actual citation, to a Chevron site, is
irrelevant.

The materials you quoted are premised upon laboratory perfect conditions of
fuel storage. Those conditions do not exist in my garage or my storage
shed,
don't exist in the OPs garage or storage shed, and exist only in your
immagination
in your garage or storage shed.

You don't know what you are talking about...

I have about 20 gasoline powered tools & toys in my hot garage. I don't
use them all in a year's time, some go several years. I've never used
Stabil. I do keep the tanks full.

I've never had a fuel related failure.

The worst problem I had was last fall... not a failure per se, I had to
actually clean the 4 fixed high speed jets in my 115 Evinrude that was
stored in the garage for 5 years. Started right up, though, on 5 year
old gas, & ran great.

YOU don't know what you're talking about...

Rob

Meat Plow wrote:
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:43:17 -0400, trainfan1 wrote:

jJim McLaughlin wrote:
Let me repeat, since you are too stupid to understand when
told something only once....

"You don't know what you are talking about..."

And your reference, without actual citation, to a Chevron site, is
irrelevant.

The materials you quoted are premised upon laboratory perfect conditions of
fuel storage. Those conditions do not exist in my garage or my storage
shed,
don't exist in the OPs garage or storage shed, and exist only in your
immagination
in your garage or storage shed.

You don't know what you are talking about...
I have about 20 gasoline powered tools & toys in my hot garage. I don't
use them all in a year's time, some go several years. I've never used
Stabil. I do keep the tanks full.

I've never had a fuel related failure.

The worst problem I had was last fall... not a failure per se, I had to
actually clean the 4 fixed high speed jets in my 115 Evinrude that was
stored in the garage for 5 years. Started right up, though, on 5 year
old gas, & ran great.

YOU don't know what you're talking about...

Rob

The thread started out discussing /small/ engines where fresh fuel is
essential for proper operation. Even more so in the smaller 2 strokers
that are 30cc and under.



The Evinrude is the largest at 1650cc, or about 25 cu. in. per cylinder.
The rest are saws, trimmers, tillers, mowers, riders, generators, etc.

I like to run the generator yearly, sometimes it's 2-3 years between though.

Rob