I'm planning on building a table which will use copper plumbing pipe as one
of its parts. I want to patina this to a green shade like copper gets when
exposed to the elements. Searching I see there are recipes for solutions to
do this, as well as some pre-made products. I'm wondering if anyone here
has any experiece with this, and can suggest particular products/procedures.

TIA

Dan

Dan writes:

I'm wondering if anyone here
has any experiece with this, and can suggest particular
products/procedures.


http://groups.google.com/group/sci.c...728fd1adc780c/

"Dan" wrote in message
...
I'm planning on building a table which will use copper plumbing pipe as
one of its parts. I want to patina this to a green shade like copper gets
when exposed to the elements. Searching I see there are recipes for
solutions to do this, as well as some pre-made products. I'm wondering if
anyone here has any experiece with this, and can suggest particular
products/procedures.

TIA

Dan

I am interested in this, too. IIRC, from previous discussions, the green
color is from exposure to acid. Weak sulfuric, I believe. Common name,
muriatic acid. Other colors are obtained from different solutions. One of
the solutions called for in one of the recipes is acetic acid, common name,
vinegar. Another ingredient is copper nitrate.

BE CAREFUL. Working with acid is very dangerous. About the most important
thing you need to know is:

ALWAYS ADD ACID TO WATER, NEVER WATER TO ACID.

Adding water to acid produces heat. I have seen chemical demonstrations
where a 4" diameter two foot high glass vessel shaped like a tube was filled
half full of acid. A small amount of water was added. The glass shattered
at the liquid line.

So, if you are going to use the really nasty stuff, like muriatic, always
add the acid to water.

I was considering making a rack that would sit in one of the big plastic
tubs. The rack would be plastic. Full strength muriatic acid would be
added to the tub, until about 1/2" deep. The copper workment would be
placed on the rack. The cover would be placed on top, and left. The idea
being that the vapor from the acid would float up and patinate the copper.
A wading pool could also be used, and perhaps instead of using so much acid
in the bottom of the pool, one could place several shallow plastic dishes of
it instead.

I have seen real copper that was left out in the elements. Old chimney
pieces, rain gutters, old house trim pieces. It all had lovely green
patination, indicating that it was something in the weather that did it. I
suspect acid rain.

Try some vinegar. Try some acid, but just be careful. Wear safety glasses,
and have a hose or water bath ready in case you do get some on you. (I
guarantee you will.) Read some of the thousands of ads on Google, or search
newsgroups for arts and crafts.

I'll be following this thread, as I intend to use copper on some projects.

Sorry I can't be more help right now, but I'm learning, too. There's just
so much to be learned.

Steve

Steve B writes:

So, if you are going to use the really nasty stuff, like muriatic,
always add the acid to water.

You're spreading hearsay, not something you've actually experimented with,
right? What you say is not true. You can pour water into full strenth pool
acid (31.5 percent hydrochloric) without a problem.

Now sulfuric acid, that will blow up in your face if you try that.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
Steve B writes:


So, if you are going to use the really nasty stuff, like muriatic,
always add the acid to water.


You're spreading hearsay, not something you've actually experimented with,
right? What you say is not true. You can pour water into full strenth pool
acid (31.5 percent hydrochloric) without a problem.

Now sulfuric acid, that will blow up in your face if you try that.


Read the warning label on a bottle of Muriatic acid. It will say to add
the acid to water to avoid splashing.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

I think you can do this by placing the copper in water with some salt
added.

Attach a jumper cable from the positive side of a car battery to the
copper and the negative side to something made of galvanized metal
that is also in the water.

The flow of electrons from the copper to the zinc should put a patina
on the copper rather quickly.

Note: this should be done with DC current AC will not have the same
effect.

And the container for the water needs to be non conductive.

I've never tried this but I've always wanted to.

If you do please let me know how well it works.

In article , "Steve B" wrote:

I am interested in this, too. IIRC, from previous discussions, the green
color is from exposure to acid. Weak sulfuric, I believe. Common name,
muriatic acid.

Muriatic acid is hydrochloric, not sulfuric. They'll produce different colors.
Copper chloride is green, copper sulfate is blue.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Richard J Kinch wrote:
Steve B writes:

So, if you are going to use the really nasty stuff, like muriatic,
always add the acid to water.

You're spreading hearsay, not something you've actually experimented with,
right? What you say is not true. You can pour water into full strenth pool
acid (31.5 percent hydrochloric) without a problem.

Speaking of spreading hearsay...

You go right ahead and do that if you want, but advising others of the
(supposed) safety of a practice that every chemistry instructor and laboratory
safety guide warns against, is stupid and irresponsible.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Hi Dan,

If you're doing just a small area you can get the patina product from a
Hobby & Craft store.
I want to say it runs around $7.00 a bottle.

I think it would be safer to use than just buying and mixing your own acid.

I have in my cupboard right now a bottle called "Patina Blue" it's made by
Modern Options Inc.
2325 Third St.
San Francisco CA
415-252-5580
It works on copper, brass and bronze.

When you're doing this, be sure that the surface is completely clean and
free of oils and fingerprints.
I prefer to use a cotton ball to apply it or something like a bit of cheese
cloth.
If you kind of rub it into the surface then wet it well, it gives a GREAT
looking finish.

It will take a day or two to achieve the rich patina of age and it can be
reapplied over the initial finish if you miss a spot.

I believe it comes in other colors as well.

FYI it will rust nails and screws made of anything other than copper, brass
or bronze. Even the plated ones.

Hope this helped!

Kate
I posted a photo for you on the binary group, my server rejected it... go
figure.



"Dan" wrote in message
...
I'm planning on building a table which will use copper plumbing pipe as one
of its parts. I want to patina this to a green shade like copper gets when
exposed to the elements. Searching I see there are recipes for solutions to
do this, as well as some pre-made products. I'm wondering if anyone here
has any experiece with this, and can suggest particular products/procedures.

TIA

Dan

Doug Miller writes:

You go right ahead and do that if you want, but advising others of the
(supposed) safety of a practice that every chemistry instructor and
laboratory safety guide warns against, is stupid and irresponsible.

The advice is sound for sulfuric acid. For hydrochloric, it is just
superstition spread by repetition. To their credit, not "every chemistry
instructor" or guide is quite so credulous, although generally they do
spout this "conventional wisdom." But it is just wrong in being
overgeneralized to all acids.

I don't expect you to believe me. Just try it yourself, if you have the
courage. Otherwise, you just compound the ignorance. Come to my place, and
you can experiment at my expense with the gallons of HCl I pour into my
pool.

The truth is never stupid or irresponsible. Your feelings are hurt that
you didn't know this little fact, and were gullible enough to believe the
overgeneralization you'd been taught.

willshak writes:

Read the warning label on a bottle of Muriatic acid. It will say to add
the acid to water to avoid splashing.

Neither of the two brands I use (Smart, Allied Universal) say that on the
bottles. Lots of warnings about corrosiveness and burns, but nothing about
diluting being hazardous, because IT ISN'T.

"Kate" wrote in message
.. .
Hi Dan,

If you're doing just a small area you can get the patina product from a
Hobby & Craft store.
I want to say it runs around $7.00 a bottle.

I think it would be safer to use than just buying and mixing your own
acid.

I have in my cupboard right now a bottle called "Patina Blue" it's made by
Modern Options Inc.
2325 Third St.
San Francisco CA
415-252-5580
It works on copper, brass and bronze.

When you're doing this, be sure that the surface is completely clean and
free of oils and fingerprints.
I prefer to use a cotton ball to apply it or something like a bit of
cheese
cloth.
If you kind of rub it into the surface then wet it well, it gives a GREAT
looking finish.

It will take a day or two to achieve the rich patina of age and it can be
reapplied over the initial finish if you miss a spot.

I believe it comes in other colors as well.

FYI it will rust nails and screws made of anything other than copper,
brass
or bronze. Even the plated ones.

Hope this helped!

Kate

Kate-Thanks for the info. I think I'd prefer to use a pre-mixed product,
unless the cost is really high. I'll look into the brand you suggest.

Dan

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
.. .
Dan writes:

I'm wondering if anyone here
has any experiece with this, and can suggest particular
products/procedures.


http://groups.google.com/group/sci.c...728fd1adc780c/

Richard-Thanks for the link, interesting thread. If I can find a pre-mixed
solution of reasonable cost I think I'd prefer it though.

Dan

"Dan" wrote

Kate-Thanks for the info. I think I'd prefer to use a pre-mixed product,
unless the cost is really high. I'll look into the brand you suggest.

Dan


Best of luck to you Dan, would LOVE to see the results

Kate
O||||||O

On Mon, 07 May 2007 14:06:48 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Doug Miller writes:

You go right ahead and do that if you want, but advising others of the
(supposed) safety of a practice that every chemistry instructor and
laboratory safety guide warns against, is stupid and irresponsible.

The advice is sound for sulfuric acid. For hydrochloric, it is just
superstition spread by repetition. To their credit, not "every chemistry
instructor" or guide is quite so credulous, although generally they do
spout this "conventional wisdom." But it is just wrong in being
overgeneralized to all acids.


It's a generalized rule for mixing water and any acid. It may not
be neccessary in the case of HCl, but since being consistant doesn't
cost you anything and does reduce the chance of getting it wrong
with other acids, most people just tell you to do it that way always.
There is simply no value in itemizing the exceptions. Especially
when you're trying to half-train a classfull of ignorant savages
like HS/college students who don't want to be there and don't
care, anyway.

Goedjn writes:

There is simply no value in itemizing the exceptions.

So you simply do not value telling the truth? Or what jurists call the
"whole" truth, not just the generalities?

Making false statements about hazards is itself a hazard. Aka, "crying
wolf". Exaggerating and lying about physical facts is not virtuous.

The essence of scientific truth is diagnosis. Dia=two, gnosis=know, to
detect and distinguish critically. You convict the guilty and acquit the
innocent. Acquitting the guilty or convicting the innocent are both
wrong. Type I and Type II errors. "Erring on the side of caution"
evidences intellectual weakness. The knife is dull, so we'll use it as
a hammer instead.

Especially
when you're trying to half-train a classfull of ignorant savages
like HS/college students who don't want to be there and don't
care, anyway.

Here I will agree wholeheartedly. Tell the little darlings whatever
they need to hear to survive their government fantasyland education.
When they have been utterly evacuated of any fondness for learning and
academics, they will be awarded a diploma purporting achievements. But
by the name of Dewey, they will not have a drop of acid in their hands,
much less roiling in their begoggled faces.

In article ,
says...
Doug Miller writes:

You go right ahead and do that if you want, but advising others of the
(supposed) safety of a practice that every chemistry instructor and
laboratory safety guide warns against, is stupid and irresponsible.

The advice is sound for sulfuric acid. For hydrochloric, it is just
superstition spread by repetition. To their credit, not "every chemistry
instructor" or guide is quite so credulous, although generally they do
spout this "conventional wisdom." But it is just wrong in being
overgeneralized to all acids.

I don't expect you to believe me.

What, just because you insist it's safe to drink gasoline and breathe
carbon monoxide, you don't expect me to believe you about this either?

I'm shocked.

Just try it yourself, if you have the
courage. Otherwise, you just compound the ignorance. Come to my place, and
you can experiment at my expense with the gallons of HCl I pour into my
pool.

Ummmm... that *is* the recommended practice: adding acid to water.

The truth is never stupid or irresponsible. Your feelings are hurt that
you didn't know this little fact, and were gullible enough to believe the
overgeneralization you'd been taught.

*My* feelings aren't hurt a bit. I'm just sitting here laughing at you
continuing to pretend you know anything at all about chemistry and
expecting people to take you seriously after some of the howlers you've
posted -- and laughing even more watching you get your panties in a wad
when someone catches you.

Miller writes:

I'm just sitting here laughing at you ...

Your insults are just foolishness, because you're wrong. Physically,
testably, and with scientific certainty, wrong. That you are smugly self-
entertained by your own ignorant mocking of my prowess in this trivial
tidbit of information shows your shriveled, boorish character for what it
is.

It's as easy as pouring some water into hydrochloric acid. I'll happily
stake my intellectual reputation on it. Be a hero and perform the
experiment: this is your chance to earn your bragging rights instead of
clutching the skirt of conventional wisdom, and forever after you can
rightly kick me down the Usenet alley. Or are you the coward it seems?