I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?

3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?

4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?

Thanks...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

Yes.


2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?

As many as will fit.

Not sure on 3 &4.

By the way I noticed your name, we are probably distant cousins.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

Sure, but you only run 15a through it. Sometimes you are required to use
#12 to avoid voltage drop.

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?

As many as you want. However, it will obviously still be good for just
200a.

3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?

As long as the neutral runs with it, I don't see why not. Someone could
object that it violates a basic requirement that devices only be used for
the purpose they were intended, but I can't see why this would be unsafe;
assuming it is done reasonably.

4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?

Obviously you have to beware that you don't overload the circuit, but aside
from that it is fine.
Just beware that long circuit may be subject to problems and those problems
can be hard to find.
My house had one GFCI breaker, and they put 4 bathrooms and 3 outdoor
outlets on it. When one outdoor outlet went bad and created a ground fault
it was a real trip to find the problem; especially since I didn't even know
it was on the breaker.

3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?
Yes

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?
As many as the panel is designed to accept, but no panel can have more
than a total of 42 poles

3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?
You must be mistaken. If you connected a black wire to both travelers,
thus bridging them together, the light that the three way system
controlled would stay on

4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?
Yes
Thanks...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

Yes


2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?


It varies by panel and manufacturer. Check the labeling inside of the panel
or the panel cover. It will tell you exactly how many are permitted. The
maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel is 42.



3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?


LOL. I've never seen that set up before. Off hand I can't think of any code
violations, but by having the travelers connected isn't the 3-way function
disabled?



4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?


Yes.


Thanks...


You're welcome.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

On 4 Mar 2007 20:39:29 -0800, wrote:

I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?

3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?


How does it keep from shorting between the 2 travelers, preventing the
light from turning off?

4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?

Thanks...
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask be to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?
Thanks.

John Grabowski wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

Yes

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?


It varies by panel and manufacturer. Check the labeling inside of the panel
or the panel cover. It will tell you exactly how many are permitted. The
maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel is 42.


3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?


LOL. I've never seen that set up before. Off hand I can't think of any code
violations, but by having the travelers connected isn't the 3-way function
disabled?


4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?


Yes.

Thanks...


You're welcome.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

In article , "John Grabowski" wrote:
The maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel is 42.

Not disputing you, just curious -- do you have a Code cite for that? I don't
remember seeing that anywhere...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article .com, wrote:
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

Yes.

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?

That depends on the panel. Consult the manufacturer's label on the inside of
the panel door.

3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?

Allowable, yes. Smart, no -- since both travelers are connected to the same
black wire, the 3-way switching function is disabled.

4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?

Yes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

408.35



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "John Grabowski"
wrote:
The maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel is
42.

Not disputing you, just curious -- do you have a Code cite for that? I
don't
remember seeing that anywhere...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either hot or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM pointed out
the light will always be on.


Thanks.

John Grabowski wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I have several electrical questions:

1. Is it allowable to connect 12 gauge wire to a 15amp breaker in the
service panel ?

Yes

2. How many half height single pole breakers are allowed in the main
panel rated for 200amp ?


It varies by panel and manufacturer. Check the labeling inside of the
panel
or the panel cover. It will tell you exactly how many are permitted.
The
maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel is
42.


3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?


LOL. I've never seen that set up before. Off hand I can't think of any
code
violations, but by having the travelers connected isn't the 3-way
function
disabled?


4. Is it ok to wire more than 4 receptacles downstream from a GFCI
outlet ?


Yes.

Thanks...


You're welcome.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
408.35

Thanks -- I learned something new today.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "John Grabowski"
wrote:
The maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel is
42.

Not disputing you, just curious -- do you have a Code cite for that? I don't
remember seeing that anywhere...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either hot or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM pointed out
the light will always be on.

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much into it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has power, but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either hot
or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch
handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM pointed
out
the light will always be on.

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much into
it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has power,
but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.


How can you connect something to both travelers and not have the travelers
connected to each other? Suppose you connected one traveler to one brass
screw on an outlet, then connected the second traveler to the other brass
screw on an outlet? The only way to keep them separate would be to break
off the middle tab on the outlet, but then the top and bottom of the outlet
would alternate being hot.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much into it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has power, but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.

Of course it affects the light: wiring a single wire to both travelers is
exactly equivalent to shorting the travelers to each other. The light will
always be on.

Draw yourself a diagram.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:57:14 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either hot or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM pointed out
the light will always be on.

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much into it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has power, but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.


I think the hot wire from the receptacle is connected to ONE traveler
and the neutral wire from the receptacle is connected to the OTHER
traveler (not one wire connected to both travelers). Is that right?

This wouldn't work with the 3-ways connected the "right" way, but
would work if they were wired a different way (where hot and neutral
are connected to both switches, and the light to the common
terminals).

BTW, that was the first way I knew to connect 3-ways, but had not
actually connected any that way before learning it was unsafe (the
light can be off and hot).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

When Roger Shoaf first answered the question by saying " as many as will
fit", should be a correct answer as panel manufacturers now, design the buss
and rails to allow only a limited combination of breaker sizes in them, but
many of the panels made in the sixties and seventies had nothing for
preventing overloading . It seemed to me their main concern was keeping
other manufactures breakers out of their panels




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
news
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
408.35

Thanks -- I learned something new today.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "John Grabowski"
wrote:
The maximum allowable circuit breakers (Thin or full size) in any panel
is
42.

Not disputing you, just curious -- do you have a Code cite for that? I
don't
remember seeing that anywhere...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either hot
or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch
handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM pointed
out
the light will always be on.

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much into
it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has power,
but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.


How can you connect something to both travelers and not have the travelers
connected to each other? Suppose you connected one traveler to one brass
screw on an outlet, then connected the second traveler to the other brass
screw on an outlet? The only way to keep them separate would be to break
off the middle tab on the outlet, but then the top and bottom of the
outlet
would alternate being hot.

good point, you couldn't.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
When Roger Shoaf first answered the question by saying " as many as will
fit", should be a correct answer as panel manufacturers now, design the
buss and rails to allow only a limited combination of breaker sizes in
them, but many of the panels made in the sixties and seventies had nothing
for preventing overloading . It seemed to me their main concern was
keeping other manufactures breakers out of their panels

I always wondered why my box has two different seatings; to keep excessive
halves out.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:36:24 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either hot
or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch
handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM pointed
out
the light will always be on.

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much into
it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has power,
but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.


How can you connect something to both travelers and not have the travelers
connected to each other? Suppose you connected one traveler to one brass
screw on an outlet, then connected the second traveler to the other brass
screw on an outlet? The only way to keep them separate would be to break
off the middle tab on the outlet, but then the top and bottom of the
outlet
would alternate being hot.

good point, you couldn't.


The receptacle is for a series connected dimmer for the hardwired
light.

Connect one traveler to the hot side of the receptacle and the other
traveler to the neutral side of the receptacle. Now when the hardwired
light is "off" its brightness will be controlled by this inefficient
dimmer.

BTW, that was supposed to be funny but maybe they actually used
dimmers like that once.

Well, now that makes sense. not good sense mind you, but it does explain the
situation that the OP must have. I pity the fool that plugs the vacuum into
that outlet



"Harry" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:36:24 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
Ok, this had really got my attention.
Some replies seem to understand #3,
some don't. I don't. Can OP or someone
enlighten the 50% that don't?


In a normal 3-way switch set up one of the two travelers is either
hot
or
dead and vice versa depending on the position of the 3-way switch
handle.
By connecting them together each will always be hot and as RBM
pointed
out
the light will always be on.

No, I think you are misunderstanding him. (or I am reading too much
into
it)
The light is wired normally to the common.
A second device is wired to both travelers; as such it always has
power,
but
does not affect the light controlled by the 3way switch.


How can you connect something to both travelers and not have the
travelers
connected to each other? Suppose you connected one traveler to one
brass
screw on an outlet, then connected the second traveler to the other
brass
screw on an outlet? The only way to keep them separate would be to
break
off the middle tab on the outlet, but then the top and bottom of the
outlet
would alternate being hot.

good point, you couldn't.


The receptacle is for a series connected dimmer for the hardwired
light.

Connect one traveler to the hot side of the receptacle and the other
traveler to the neutral side of the receptacle. Now when the hardwired
light is "off" its brightness will be controlled by this inefficient
dimmer.

BTW, that was supposed to be funny but maybe they actually used
dimmers like that once.

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

RBM wrote:

When Roger Shoaf first answered the question by saying " as many as will
fit", should be a correct answer as panel manufacturers now, design the buss
and rails to allow only a limited combination of breaker sizes in them, but
many of the panels made in the sixties and seventies had nothing for
preventing overloading . It seemed to me their main concern was keeping
other manufactures breakers out of their panels


Panels and breakers have been "class CTL" (circuit limiting) for a long
time. Half width breakers have a feature that limits the positions where
they can be installed, which limits the maximum number of half sized
breakers. There are still non-class CTL breakers available for older
panels that fit in CTL panels that can allow more than the intended
number of poles in the panel, so "as many as will fit" is not entirely
right. Non-class CTL breakers will not be among those listed as
acceptable on the panel label, making their installation a code violation.

Panels are designed and tested by UL for a maximum number of poles.
Class CTL enforces the maximum number of poles that the panel was
designed and tested for. I think the issue is heating in the panel.


Last I heard the 42 pole limit on panels is being eliminated in the 2008
NEC. UL will still have to change their standard and panels will have
to be tested before panels with more than 42 poles appear.

--
bud--

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:11:56 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

The only catch with this theory is that you do not tie the travelers
together. I can think of no way you could connect travelers together
and keep a receptacle hot.

I think the op has mistaken the connections he has. I would be
interested in hearing a reply from him.

In article , Terry wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:01:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Terry wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.


Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.

You can not have that work if you switch the hot.

If it is so stupid, then you figure it out.

I know you will say....why not use 4 wires?

I agree. That is better, but I have seen people use 2 wires to go to
3-way swithches and use the bare as a traveler.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , Terry
wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

A true California three way switches both so the light is off when connected between two
hots or two neutrals. (the hots and neutrals are connected to the 3 way switch traveler
terminals-the commons of each switch run to the light socket).

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 14:29:52 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:01:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Terry wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.


Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.

You can not have that work if you switch the hot.

If it is so stupid, then you figure it out.

I know you will say....why not use 4 wires?

I agree. That is better, but I have seen people use 2 wires to go to
3-way swithches and use the bare as a traveler.


er.....never mind. Again! I kind of left the receptacle out of my
first message.

I have learned to like crow.

Maybe you're thinking of a "Carter" three way system?




"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:01:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Terry
wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.


Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.

You can not have that work if you switch the hot.

If it is so stupid, then you figure it out.

I know you will say....why not use 4 wires?

I agree. That is better, but I have seen people use 2 wires to go to
3-way swithches and use the bare as a traveler.

In article , Terry wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:01:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Terry
wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.


Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.

You can not have that work if you switch the hot.

Of course you can. What makes you think it won't work?

If it is so stupid, then you figure it out.

I already have... but I think you're missing something.

I know you will say....why not use 4 wires?

I agree. That is better, but I have seen people use 2 wires to go to
3-way swithches and use the bare as a traveler.

I've seen lots of dangerous practices. Never that particular one, though.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . net, "Rick" wrote:

A true California three way switches both so the light is off when connected between two
hots or two neutrals. (the hots and neutrals are connected to the 3 way switch traveler
terminals-the commons of each switch run to the light socket).

Sorry, it's not clear to me exactly what you mean by that. Can you post a
drawing (even if it's just "ASCII Art" in a text post here)?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Here's a diagram of the Carter three way. I'm sure they only call it
California, on the left coast:
http://www.code-electrical.com/necexamquestions.html









"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Rick"
wrote:

A true California three way switches both so the light is off when
connected between two
hots or two neutrals. (the hots and neutrals are connected to the 3 way
switch traveler
terminals-the commons of each switch run to the light socket).

Sorry, it's not clear to me exactly what you mean by that. Can you post a
drawing (even if it's just "ASCII Art" in a text post here)?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:11:56 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will --

and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

That depends on how the 3-way circuit is wired. The receptacle could
work fine.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

(Doug Miller) writes:

Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.

You can not have that work if you switch the hot.

Of course you can. What makes you think it won't work?

The standard way to do this would run 4 wires (plus ground) to the
garage: neutral, unswitched hot, and 2 alternately-switch hots from the
3-way switch. But it takes 4 wires. Without the hot that bypasses the
3-way switch in the house, you don't have an unswitched hot for the
receptacle (unless you use something like a relay to always feed the
receptacle from the hot one of the two switched wires, which has other
problems).

The system being described feeds the garage hot, neutral, and a traveler
that is switched between hot and neutral. So feeding the outlet is no
problem, but you can end up with both bulb contacts hot when the lamp is
off.

Dave

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 13:25:36 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 17:11:56 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


I think that is what I was talking about. Each switch has both hot and
neutral connected to it. The screw shell may or may not be hot
depending on the positions of the switches.

The only catch with this theory is that you do not tie the travelers
together. I can think of no way you could connect travelers together
and keep a receptacle hot.


I solved that one, with the possibility the OP meant EACH rather than
BOTH (that is, a wire on each (2 wires) rather than a wire on both
(the same wire)). One traveler connected to each side of the
receptacle. Travelers are never connected together unless the
receptacle is shorted.

I think the op has mistaken the connections he has. I would be
interested in hearing a reply from him.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:01:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Terry wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.

Some things make much more sense with diagrams. How about this (fixed
font for reading, of course):


#1
SW1 SW2
O+----------------O
(hot) |
--------------------O| |O----light---\
| |
O----------------+O |
(neutral) | |
---------------------------------------------------/


#2

(hot) SW1 SW2
--------------------O+---------------------------O
|
O+----------light------------O|
(neutral) |
--------------------O----------------------------O|


This is what I think the OP may be describing:


(hot) SW1 SW2
--------------------O+---------------------------O--------\
| |
O+----------light------------O| receptacle
(neutral) | |
--------------------O----------------------------O+-------/
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 21:51:15 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article . net, "Rick" wrote:

A true California three way switches both so the light is off when connected between two
hots or two neutrals. (the hots and neutrals are connected to the 3 way switch traveler
terminals-the commons of each switch run to the light socket).

Sorry, it's not clear to me exactly what you mean by that. Can you post a
drawing (even if it's just "ASCII Art" in a text post here)?

I just posted some ASCII drawings. What's being described seems to be
like my #2.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster