On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:48:24 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

How can one connect something to each traveler without connecting to
both?

There's a three-way switch at one end fo the travelers, and the
specifiec connection at the other, right?

On Mar 6, 6:22 pm, (Dave Martindale) wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.
You can not have that work if you switch the hot.
Of course you can. What makes you think it won't work?

The standard way to do this would run 4 wires (plus ground) to the
garage: neutral, unswitched hot, and 2 alternately-switch hots from the
3-way switch. But it takes 4 wires. Without the hot that bypasses the
3-way switch in the house, you don't have an unswitched hot for the
receptacle (unless you use something like a relay to always feed the
receptacle from the hot one of the two switched wires, which has other
problems).

The system being described feeds the garage hot, neutral, and a traveler
that is switched between hot and neutral. So feeding the outlet is no
problem, but you can end up with both bulb contacts hot when the lamp is
off.

Dave

You said it much better than I could have.

What I meant to add was the fact that it puts a switch in the neutral
connection is what makes it against the code.

It puts the light in series with the common points of the switches and
connects each traveler to the hot and neutral.

If you erase the red line back to the connection points in the drawing
that RMB posted it makes it more clear to see.
http://www.code-electrical.com/necexamquestions.html

BTW that is exactly what I was talking about, but it is still in left
field as the travelers of the switch are never connected together.
Which is what the OP claims.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Here's a diagram of the Carter three way. I'm sure they only call it
California, on the left coast:
http://www.code-electrical.com/necexamquestions.html

Thanks -- that's kinda scary.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , (Dave Martindale) wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:

Think about it. You have a 3-way switch in the house to control a
light at the garage. You also have a receptacle in the garage. (the
other 3 way is at the garage) You can have the light and receptacle
work with 3 wires.

You can not have that work if you switch the hot.

Of course you can. What makes you think it won't work?

The standard way to do this would run 4 wires (plus ground) to the
garage: neutral, unswitched hot, and 2 alternately-switch hots from the
3-way switch. But it takes 4 wires. Without the hot that bypasses the
3-way switch in the house, you don't have an unswitched hot for the
receptacle (unless you use something like a relay to always feed the
receptacle from the hot one of the two switched wires, which has other
problems).

Or you can run three wires, and have the receptacle switched along with the
light -- perfectly safely, and in compliance with Code.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:01:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Terry
wrote:
This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage)

How does that differ from the normal method of wiring a 3-way switch?

It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.

That's stupid, when the hot can be switched just as easily.

Some things make much more sense with diagrams. How about this (fixed
font for reading, of course):


#1
SW1 SW2
O+----------------O
(hot) |
--------------------O| |O----light---\
| |
O----------------+O |
(neutral) | |
---------------------------------------------------/


#2

(hot) SW1 SW2
--------------------O+---------------------------O
|
O+----------light------------O|
(neutral) |
--------------------O----------------------------O|


This is what I think the OP may be describing:


(hot) SW1 SW2
--------------------O+---------------------------O--------\
| |
O+----------light------------O| receptacle
(neutral) | |
--------------------O----------------------------O+-------/

Like I said... that's stupid.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:52:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

[snip]


Like I said... that's stupid.

Which doesn't keep people from doing it.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:07:17 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:48:24 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

How can one connect something to each traveler without connecting to
both?


That's easy, when there's 2 somethings (hot and neutral wires to the
receptacle).

There's a three-way switch at one end fo the travelers, and the
specifiec connection at the other, right?

That depends on how it's wired. I know of one of a 3way circuit that
has both hot and neutral on each switch (and that has a receptacle on
it too). Ignoring it won't make it go away.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article . net, "Rick"
wrote:

A true California three way switches both so the light is off when connected between
two
hots or two neutrals. (the hots and neutrals are connected to the 3 way switch traveler
terminals-the commons of each switch run to the light socket).

Sorry, it's not clear to me exactly what you mean by that. Can you post a
drawing (even if it's just "ASCII Art" in a text post here)?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Just got home from work. I haven't checked all the posts but it looks like someone must
have posted a diagram before I could. From the way it's wired (single wire coming from
each switch to the fixture), I'd guess it originated with knob&tube..

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:52:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

[snip]

Like I said... that's stupid.

Which doesn't keep people from doing it.

Unfortunately true. I remember in my first house, the medicine cabinet was one
of those old chrome-plated jobs with fluorescent lights on the sides, and an
outlet at one end. Lights were controlled by the wall switch, but the outlet
was hot all the time. Only one cable coming into the medicine cabinet: a
2-wire BX from the switch. They had used the cable armor as the neutral for
the lights.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:41:38 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 01:52:31 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

[snip]

Like I said... that's stupid.

Which doesn't keep people from doing it.

Unfortunately true. I remember in my first house, the medicine cabinet was one
of those old chrome-plated jobs with fluorescent lights on the sides, and an
outlet at one end. Lights were controlled by the wall switch, but the outlet
was hot all the time. Only one cable coming into the medicine cabinet: a
2-wire BX from the switch. They had used the cable armor as the neutral for
the lights.

I have one here, the 3way light in my kitchen is wired like that, and
there's a receptacle installed in one of the boxes (next to a 3way
switch), with both hot and neutral common to both switch and
receptacle (which is not affected by the switch).

BTW, this is the house built in the late sixties.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

Terry wrote:



A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

Never? With a 300W light and the switches in an off combination, a clock
will work fine.




This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.


This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

A California 3-way is rather clever and is an advantage only when you
need power at the far end and a common-switched light at each end. It
is, on the other hand, much harder to troubleshoot. You can not wire it
with Romex (or other cable) anymore unless it is 4 wire cable.

--
bud--

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:07:17 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:48:24 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

How can one connect something to each traveler without connecting to
both?

There's a three-way switch at one end fo the travelers, and the
specifiec connection at the other, right?

Having seen the diagram, I offer an alternative verbal description
of the logic. To start, there is only one traveller.

There are three conductors.
One of them is permanantly hot.
One of them is permanantly nuetral.
Neither switch affects either of these.
The outlet is connected between them.

The CENTER pole of each switch is connected to the
third-wire, the lamp, and then the other switch.
the (up) pole of each switch is connected to the hot,
and the (down) pole of each switch is connected to the nuetral.

So Switch-1 controls whether one side of the lamp is hot
or nuetral, and Switch-2 controls whether the other side
of the lamp is hot or nuetral.

If both switches are set to "hot", then the lamp
is hot, but off. If both are "nuetral" then the lamp
is not hot, and off. If the switches disagree one way,
then the lamp is hot, and it's polarity is correct,
and if they disagree the other way, then the lamp is
hot, but the polarity is reversed.

I don't know if I'd call it "stupid", it's actually
kind of clever. But if the light fixture(s) in question
have exposed shells, or if the person doing the wiring
doesn't know what you've done, it's certainly dangerous.
(I mean, you can stick your voltage detector across
the two leads to the lamp, show zero volts, and still
get zapped when you start pulling wires apart. How
much fun is that?)

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:58:19 -0600, Bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:



A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

Never? With a 300W light and the switches in an off combination, a clock
will work fine.




This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.


This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

A California 3-way is rather clever and is an advantage only when you
need power at the far end and a common-switched light at each end. It
is, on the other hand, much harder to troubleshoot. You can not wire it
with Romex (or other cable) anymore unless it is 4 wire cable.

To get power in both places requires 4 wires with a normal connection.
If you have to use 4 wires for a California splice, how would this be
any different? What you have is different. Not better.

It takes the same number of wires to make either connection.

The drawing that RBM posted does the same job (illegally) using 3
wires. http://www.code-electrical.com/necexamquestions.html

You even admit that you can not do without using 4 wires anymore. How
would you have done it in the past with 3?

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:07:55 -0500, Goedjn wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:07:17 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:48:24 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 04:47:18 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
3. I noticed something very interesting in a 3-way switch arrangement
in my home. To power a receptacle, they grabbed an unswitched feed
from the light fixture by connecting a black wire to both travelers in
the box. Since there is always power on exactly one of them, this
seems to work. Is this allowable ?



Yes, it's called a loop switch.

It's fairly a common way to power a switch.

It also comes in handy when you want to switch half of an outlet.

Something is missing from your description here if you connect both
travelers to a load you would have connected them to each other and the
light would be on all of the time.

A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

How can one connect something to each traveler without connecting to
both?

There's a three-way switch at one end fo the travelers, and the
specifiec connection at the other, right?

Having seen the diagram, I offer an alternative verbal description
of the logic. To start, there is only one traveller.

There are three conductors.
One of them is permanantly hot.
One of them is permanantly nuetral.
Neither switch affects either of these.
The outlet is connected between them.

The CENTER pole of each switch is connected to the
third-wire, the lamp, and then the other switch.
the (up) pole of each switch is connected to the hot,
and the (down) pole of each switch is connected to the nuetral.

So Switch-1 controls whether one side of the lamp is hot
or nuetral, and Switch-2 controls whether the other side
of the lamp is hot or nuetral.

If both switches are set to "hot", then the lamp
is hot, but off. If both are "nuetral" then the lamp
is not hot, and off. If the switches disagree one way,
then the lamp is hot, and it's polarity is correct,
and if they disagree the other way, then the lamp is
hot, but the polarity is reversed.

I don't know if I'd call it "stupid", it's actually
kind of clever. But if the light fixture(s) in question
have exposed shells, or if the person doing the wiring
doesn't know what you've done, it's certainly dangerous.
(I mean, you can stick your voltage detector across
the two leads to the lamp, show zero volts, and still
get zapped when you start pulling wires apart. How
much fun is that?)

You're supposed to work on the wiring without turning off the breaker?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:58:19 -0600, Bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:



A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

Never? With a 300W light and the switches in an off combination, a clock
will work fine.




This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.


This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

A California 3-way is rather clever and is an advantage only when you
need power at the far end and a common-switched light at each end. It
is, on the other hand, much harder to troubleshoot. You can not wire it
with Romex (or other cable) anymore unless it is 4 wire cable.

So Now I know another way to wire 3-way switches. Now, I mentally add
it to the 2 I already posted diagrams of.

It does take more wires, though.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:29:05 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:58:19 -0600, Bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:



A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

Never? With a 300W light and the switches in an off combination, a clock
will work fine.




This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.


This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

A California 3-way is rather clever and is an advantage only when you
need power at the far end and a common-switched light at each end. It
is, on the other hand, much harder to troubleshoot. You can not wire it
with Romex (or other cable) anymore unless it is 4 wire cable.

So Now I know another way to wire 3-way switches. Now, I mentally add
it to the 2 I already posted diagrams of.

It does take more wires, though.

I tried to work out what he describes. It takes the same number of
wires as near as I can tell using either setup. I can't follow those
ASCII drawings.

I made a very rough sketch.

http://i15.tinypic.com/2edma6p.jpg

Bud-- writes:

That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.

This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

Interesting. So it does take 4 conductors, but allows switching a light
at *both* house and garage. If you need both lights, the conventional
3-way switch wiring would take 5 conductors to do this.

Dave

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:49:22 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:29:05 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:58:19 -0600, Bud--
wrote:

Terry wrote:



A lot of people say "both" when they mean "each". Connecting to EACH
traveler wouldn't cause the same problem.

Connecting the *same*thing* to each certainly will -- and connecting each
traveler to opposite sides of a receptacle results in a receptacle that never
works.

Never? With a 300W light and the switches in an off combination, a clock
will work fine.




This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.


This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

A California 3-way is rather clever and is an advantage only when you
need power at the far end and a common-switched light at each end. It
is, on the other hand, much harder to troubleshoot. You can not wire it
with Romex (or other cable) anymore unless it is 4 wire cable.

So Now I know another way to wire 3-way switches. Now, I mentally add
it to the 2 I already posted diagrams of.

It does take more wires, though.

I tried to work out what he describes. It takes the same number of
wires as near as I can tell using either setup. I can't follow those
ASCII drawings.


Don't forget to set a fixed-width font when you try. Proportional
fonts really make a mess of those.

I made a very rough sketch.

http://i15.tinypic.com/2edma6p.jpg

I found your drawing more understandable for several reasons. For one,
you made it more obvious which terminals were part of the same switch.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

On Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:07:55 -0500, Goedjn wrote:


Having seen the diagram, I offer an alternative verbal description
of the logic. To start, there is only one traveller.

There are three conductors.
One of them is permanantly hot.
One of them is permanantly nuetral.
Neither switch affects either of these.
The outlet is connected between them.

The CENTER pole of each switch is connected to the
third-wire, the lamp, and then the other switch.
the (up) pole of each switch is connected to the hot,
and the (down) pole of each switch is connected to the nuetral.

So Switch-1 controls whether one side of the lamp is hot
or nuetral, and Switch-2 controls whether the other side
of the lamp is hot or nuetral.

If both switches are set to "hot", then the lamp
is hot, but off. If both are "nuetral" then the lamp
is not hot, and off. If the switches disagree one way,
then the lamp is hot, and it's polarity is correct,
and if they disagree the other way, then the lamp is
hot, but the polarity is reversed.

I don't know if I'd call it "stupid", it's actually
kind of clever. But if the light fixture(s) in question
have exposed shells, or if the person doing the wiring
doesn't know what you've done, it's certainly dangerous.
(I mean, you can stick your voltage detector across
the two leads to the lamp, show zero volts, and still
get zapped when you start pulling wires apart. How
much fun is that?)

Tnanks. I'll have to think aobut this some more.

Terry wrote:

This sounds like what we call a California 3 - way. I Google for it
and found many messages about it but the only drawing I found was
wrong.

In a California splice you have only 3 wires going to the next 3 way
switch (out to the garage) It is connected so that you are switching
the neutral. This will allow the light switch as expected but, as
others have pointed out, would make the screw shell of the light hot.


That is not a California 3-way. A California 3-way does not switch the
neutral and is legal.


This is a California 3-way:

H ------------------------------
| |
O O
o----o
O O
|----------------|
| |
lite lite
| |
N -----------------------------

A California 3-way is rather clever and is an advantage only when you
need power at the far end and a common-switched light at each end. It
is, on the other hand, much harder to troubleshoot. You can not wire it
with Romex (or other cable) anymore unless it is 4 wire cable.

So Now I know another way to wire 3-way switches. Now, I mentally add
it to the 2 I already posted diagrams of.

It does take more wires, though.

It uses fewer wires if there is power at the far end and a
common-switched light at *both* ends. See the jpg below.

And like I said, a California is much harder to troubleshoot. If you run
across one and don't know what a California 3-way is, you may have big
problems. The first problem is figuring out the circuit is not a
conventional 3-way. Then it still is more difficult. The tipoff may be
both power and switched light at both ends with 4 wires. But I once
worked with a guy that made all 3-ways a California (the jerk).



I tried to work out what he describes. It takes the same number of
wires as near as I can tell using either setup. I can't follow those
ASCII drawings.

I made a very rough sketch.

http://i15.tinypic.com/2edma6p.jpg

As your sketch shows, using a Califorina 3-way *4* wires are required.
As your sketch shows, a conventional 3-way takes *5* wires. (Your sketch
may have a redundant wire on the California ckt - not obvious if the dim
line is intended to be a wire.)



From you other post:
"You even admit that you can not do without using 4 wires anymore."

I said it couldn't be run with cable. It can be run with a raceway and 4
fished wires. In the past it would have been run with 2 2-wire Romexes.
The NEC was changed (1996?) to require all circuit conductors to be in
the same raceway or cable (300.3-B). That requires 4 conductor Romex,
which is going to be hard to find. The conventional 3-way at the bottom
of your jpg now requires a 3-wire Romex and 2 2-wire Romexes (7 wires
with cable - or 5 if fished). (Presumably 4 wire Romex is becoming more
available to run 2 branch circuits without a common neutral.)

--
bud--

On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:36:46 -0600, Bud--
wrote:



And like I said, a California is much harder to troubleshoot. If you run
across one and don't know what a California 3-way is, you may have big
problems. The first problem is figuring out the circuit is not a
conventional 3-way. Then it still is more difficult. The tipoff may be
both power and switched light at both ends with 4 wires. But I once
worked with a guy that made all 3-ways a California (the jerk).


I see that now. The system I was talking incorrectly calling the
California 3-way was the Carter 3-way.

And, like you have already pointed out, the California setup is legal
and will save a wire if you have a switched light at both ends.

On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:48:40 -0500, Terry
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:36:46 -0600, Bud--
wrote:



And like I said, a California is much harder to troubleshoot. If you run
across one and don't know what a California 3-way is, you may have big
problems. The first problem is figuring out the circuit is not a
conventional 3-way. Then it still is more difficult. The tipoff may be
both power and switched light at both ends with 4 wires. But I once
worked with a guy that made all 3-ways a California (the jerk).


I see that now. The system I was talking incorrectly calling the
California 3-way was the Carter 3-way.

Sometimes I can't even figure out what I was trying to say.