My house is a 1950's brick walkup. There is a chimney that runs from
the basement and up through the kitchen and out the roof. There is no
fireplace or woodstove hooked up to this chimney; just the gas
furnace. The chimney is brick. It appears to have a liner of some kind
of clay or ceramic stuff. There is a metal roof over the top of the
chimney opening.

Where the chimney passes through the kitchen, it juts out from the
wall and is plastered over. Just this winter, I have started noticing
water damage in the plaster. It appears moisture is destroying the
plaster from the inside, discoloring it brown and making it bubble up.
The damage does seem to be located more toward the top of the chimney,
near the ceiling of the kitchen.

I have only owned the house for two years, so I don't know for sure if
this is a recurrent problem. I'm guessing it is. It could have been
patched over before we bought the house, and only now starting to show
damage.

I went up on the roof to see where water might be getting in. The
concrete crown on top of the chimney looks to be in good shape. All
the brickwork and mortar looks sound up there. There are no obvious
problems with the flashing or the shingles around the base of the
chimney. The flashing material looks to be some kind of brown-painted
sheet metal. Someone has caulked around the edges of the sheet metal
with clear silicone caulk.

Since there are no obvious problems up above, I am wondering if there
may be moisture coming from inside the chimney somehow? It is
suspicous to me that we only started having this problem when the
weather got cold and we were running the furnace. Of course that could
be a coincidence, if the previous owner did a patch job that held for
2 years, and the underlying problem is only now starting to reveal
itself.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help me diagnose and repair this
problem?

"alath" wrote in message
Since there are no obvious problems up above, I am wondering if there
may be moisture coming from inside the chimney somehow? It is
suspicous to me that we only started having this problem when the
weather got cold and we were running the furnace. Of course that could
be a coincidence, if the previous owner did a patch job that held for
2 years, and the underlying problem is only now starting to reveal
itself.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help me diagnose and repair this
problem?

To say for sure, you'd need a reputable chmney inspector. It may be from
condensation. One of the products of combustion of natural gas is water.
With the cold weather, it will condense in the chimney and drip back down.
There may be some blockage from an animal next in there too making it worse.
Liner may have cracked allowing it to seep through.

On Feb 28, 11:33�pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"alath" wrote in message
Since there are no obvious problems up above, I am wondering if there
may be moisture coming from inside the chimney somehow? It is
suspicous to me that we only started having this problem when the
weather got cold and we were running the furnace. Of course that could
be a coincidence, if the previous owner did a patch job that held for
2 years, and the underlying problem is only now starting to reveal
itself.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help me diagnose and repair this
problem?

To say for sure, you'd need a reputable chmney inspector. It may be from
condensation. *One of the products of combustion of natural gas is water.
With the cold weather, it will condense in the chimney and drip back down.
There may be some blockage from an animal next in there too making it worse.
Liner may have cracked allowing it to seep through.



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you 100% guaranteed fix! Replace furnace with direct vent, abandon and
remove chimney to at least below roof level, roof over offending area.

much lower fuel bills, new furnace increasing value of home, never a
chimney problem again EVER!

you can take chimney all the way out and gety more space in your
kitchen too

Yeah I know it costs but long term has many advantages

Well, if it's staining brown, then it is definitely moisture. Where
it's coming from is another thing. Since someone has siliconed the
roof, I'd say it's a re-occuring problem.

It may be coming from a roof opening around the chimney that is hard
to see, but I doubt it. You'll have to go into the attic and look to
see why moisture is pooling where it is, and where it's coming from.
It can be anything, even and improperly vented bathroom fan. You'll
just have to search and hunt for it.

If the plaster is sound ( you can't put your finger through it ) Just
repair it and touch it up. Don't make a months worth of work out of a
2 hour fix.

Don





On 28 Feb 2007 19:26:01 -0800, "alath" wrote:

My house is a 1950's brick walkup. There is a chimney that runs from
the basement and up through the kitchen and out the roof. There is no
fireplace or woodstove hooked up to this chimney; just the gas
furnace. The chimney is brick. It appears to have a liner of some kind
of clay or ceramic stuff. There is a metal roof over the top of the
chimney opening.

Where the chimney passes through the kitchen, it juts out from the
wall and is plastered over. Just this winter, I have started noticing
water damage in the plaster. It appears moisture is destroying the
plaster from the inside, discoloring it brown and making it bubble up.
The damage does seem to be located more toward the top of the chimney,
near the ceiling of the kitchen.

I have only owned the house for two years, so I don't know for sure if
this is a recurrent problem. I'm guessing it is. It could have been
patched over before we bought the house, and only now starting to show
damage.

I went up on the roof to see where water might be getting in. The
concrete crown on top of the chimney looks to be in good shape. All
the brickwork and mortar looks sound up there. There are no obvious
problems with the flashing or the shingles around the base of the
chimney. The flashing material looks to be some kind of brown-painted
sheet metal. Someone has caulked around the edges of the sheet metal
with clear silicone caulk.

Since there are no obvious problems up above, I am wondering if there
may be moisture coming from inside the chimney somehow? It is
suspicous to me that we only started having this problem when the
weather got cold and we were running the furnace. Of course that could
be a coincidence, if the previous owner did a patch job that held for
2 years, and the underlying problem is only now starting to reveal
itself.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help me diagnose and repair this
problem?

"alath" wrote
Someone has caulked around the edges of the sheet metal
with clear silicone caulk.

Does anyone have any suggestions to help me diagnose and repair this
problem?

I agree with Don. No reputable roofer would use silicone on
flashing/roofing. There has been, and probably still is, a problem area.

Attempt to find a reputable roofer experienced with custom flashing. Make
sure anyone you talk with, has a brake to bend flashing in an acceptable
fashion.

On Mar 1, 3:38 pm, "Moe" wrote:
"alath" wrote

Someone has caulked around the edges of the sheet metal
with clear silicone caulk.
Does anyone have any suggestions to help me diagnose and repair this
problem?

I agree with Don. No reputable roofer would use silicone on
flashing/roofing. There has been, and probably still is, a problem area.

Attempt to find a reputable roofer experienced with custom flashing. Make
sure anyone you talk with, has a brake to bend flashing in an acceptable
fashion.

If it were a flashing problem, why is the problem appearing in the
middle of the kitchen wall where the chimney is? Flashing problems
typically result in a roof leak, with water appearing at the ceiling,
not in the middle of the wall.

I'm with Edwin on this one. I'd start with a chimney inspection. It
could be a deteriorated chimney combined with condensation.
Depending on the inspection, you can decide what to do. If it's
condensation related, a steel liner may be a solution. That not only
keeps the water from getting into the house, but also from condensing
to begin with. The liner is much smaller, so the gases have less time
to cool down.

Of course, since a liner is $1K+, if it comes to that, you should
consider Hallerb's idea of going with a new direct vent furnace too.
Of course, if you have a gas WH, then you're looking at having to vent
that anyway or replace it too.

wrote

If it were a flashing problem, why is the problem appearing in the
middle of the kitchen wall where the chimney is? Flashing problems
typically result in a roof leak, with water appearing at the ceiling,
not in the middle of the wall.

Well, if you would read the post as written, and not put your on thoughts
into it, you probably would've read:

"alath" wrote:

The damage does seem to be located more toward the top of the chimney,
near the ceiling of the kitchen.

You would also know, no one puts silicone on flashing, unless there's a
problem. And, silicone is the wrong approach to solve any problem with the
mentioned

You sure do have all kinds of expensive ways to spend this persons money.

Would you spend your own money like this, when the problem is quite
obvious? Of course there's no guaranty it's a flashing problem, but it's
pretty simple to check, if you're know what you're doing.

On Mar 1, 5:51 pm, "Moe" wrote:
wrote

If it were a flashing problem, why is the problem appearing in the
middle of the kitchen wall where the chimney is? Flashing problems
typically result in a roof leak, with water appearing at the ceiling,
not in the middle of the wall.

Well, if you would read the post as written, and not put your on thoughts
into it, you probably would've read:

"alath" wrote:
The damage does seem to be located more toward the top of the chimney,
near the ceiling of the kitchen.

Yes, obviously I missed that he did say it was near the ceiling.



You would also know, no one puts silicone on flashing, unless there's a
problem. And, silicone is the wrong approach to solve any problem with the
mentioned

You sure do have all kinds of expensive ways to spend this persons money.

He has a house that is 50 years old and he's only owned it for 2 years
so he has no history. I don't think it's unreasonable to have that
chimney inspected. Nor is it expensive. That was where both I and
another poster recomended he start.


Would you spend your own money like this, when the problem is quite
obvious? Of course there's no guaranty it's a flashing problem, but it's
pretty simple to check, if you're know what you're doing.

Yes, I would have my own 50 year old chimney inspected under these
conditions. I'd rather know what's going on inside, how
deteriorated it may be, than to wait till CO leaks into the house or
it falls down. Plus many chimney guys can also give an opinion as
to what's going on with the flashing.

wrote in message
ps.com...

He has a house that is 50 years old and he's only owned it for 2 years
so he has no history. I don't think it's unreasonable to have that
chimney inspected. Nor is it expensive. That was where both I and
another poster recomended he start.


The problem is, you want him to start with a more expensive diagnosis.



Yes, I would have my own 50 year old chimney inspected under these
conditions. I'd rather know what's going on inside, how
deteriorated it may be, than to wait till CO leaks into the house or
it falls down. Plus many chimney guys can also give an opinion as
to what's going on with the flashing.

You are really going out there on a limb, you got the guy's chimney
emitting CO & falling down. He said it's leaking around the chimney, and
showing up near the ceiling. I didn't read any place where they said the CO
detector was going off, they do have these little meters with alarms which
will tell you this, believe it or not.

You also previously stated: " Depending on the inspection, you can decide
what to do. If it's
condensation related, a steel liner may be a solution. That not only keeps
the water from getting into the house, but also from condensing to begin
with. The liner is much smaller, so the gases have less time to cool
down."

You don't put a liner in the chimney, just to run venting for HVAC. Talk
about a bunch of nonsense, and throwing away money!

You also got the guy buying a new furnace & possibly a water heater! "Of
course, since a liner is $1K+, if it comes to that, you should consider
Hallerb's idea of going with a new direct vent furnace too.Of course, if
you have a gas WH, then you're looking at having to vent that anyway or
replace it too."

Good grief man, give it a rest! You give out some really expensive
information, thank the good Lord, you don't do this for a living.

As far as a chimney guy "giving" an "opinion", I worked with custom
flashing for close to 30 years, and met a lot of trades persons, and worked
side by side with different trades. And, a sheet metal worker will do the
flashing, not a "chimney guy". I for one would not trust a "chimney guy" or
mason, over the work of a sheet metal worker, with an emphasis on roofing
materials.

On Mar 1, 7:24�pm, "Moe" wrote:
wrote in message

ps.com...

He has a house that is 50 years old and he's only owned it for 2 years
so he has no history. * *I don't think it's unreasonable to have that
chimney inspected. *Nor is it expensive. * That was where both I and
another poster *recomended he start.

The problem is, you want him to start with a more expensive diagnosis.

Yes, I would have my own 50 year old chimney inspected under these
conditions. * *I'd rather know what's going on inside, how
deteriorated it may be, than to wait till CO leaks into the house or
it falls down. * *Plus many chimney guys can also give an opinion as
to what's going on with the flashing.

You are really going out there on a limb, you got the guy's chimney
emitting CO & falling down. He said it's leaking around the chimney, and
showing up near the ceiling. I didn't read any place where they said the CO
detector was going off, they do have these little meters with alarms which
will tell you this, believe it or not.

You also previously stated: " Depending on the inspection, you can decide
what to do. * If it's
condensation related, a steel liner may be a solution. *That not only keeps
the water from getting into the house, but also from condensing to begin
with. *The liner is much smaller, so the gases have less time to cool
down."

You don't put a liner in the chimney, just to run venting for HVAC. Talk
about a bunch of nonsense, and throwing away money!

You also got the guy buying a new furnace & possibly a water heater! "Of
course, since a liner is $1K+, if it comes to that, you should consider
Hallerb's idea of going with a new direct vent furnace too.Of course, if
you have a gas WH, then you're looking at having to vent that anyway or
replace it too."

Good grief man, give it a rest! You give out some really expensive
information, thank the good Lord, you don't do this for a living.

As far as a chimney guy "giving" an "opinion", I worked with custom
flashing for close to 30 years, and met a lot of trades persons, and worked
side by side with different trades. And, a sheet metal worker will do the
flashing, not a "chimney guy". I for one would not trust a "chimney guy" or
mason, over the work of a sheet metal worker, with an emphasis on roofing
materials.

I stand by my suggestion look into new direct vent furnace, OP said it
was the ONLY thing vented into the chimney.

New furnace can pay for itself and is a INVESTMENT in the home.Energy
prices just go up over time/

He also mentioned chimney intrudes in kitchen, no chimney equals more
kitchen space

I too believe a 50 year old chimney is due for a pro inspection!

Perhaps its the FACT we nealy died from carbon monoxide poisioning
from a bad chimney.

when you buy a home its a endless repair cycle.

I provided OPTIONS!

The cheapest patch isnt necessarily the best repair.

Lots of people never even think of removing chimneys, but doing so can
save LOTS of maintence and future expenses.


Around pittsburgh chimney removal has become a industry.
Plus you save the bricks, which often match the home!

A friend had a stainless liner installed in his chimney.

The chimney was too large for the hot water tank and caused excess
condensation.

On Mar 1, 7:24 pm, "Moe" wrote:
wrote in message

ps.com...

He has a house that is 50 years old and he's only owned it for 2 years
so he has no history. I don't think it's unreasonable to have that
chimney inspected. Nor is it expensive. That was where both I and
another poster recomended he start.

The problem is, you want him to start with a more expensive diagnosis.

You obviously don't believe in preventative maintenance. I do. He
has a 50 year old chimney that he doesn't even know the history of for
48 years. I would have that chimney inspected, whether it was
showing signs of problems or not. And maybe a couple hundred bucks is
a lot of money to you, but to me it's money well spent to know what I
have and any serious problems that may exist.




Yes, I would have my own 50 year old chimney inspected under these
conditions. I'd rather know what's going on inside, how
deteriorated it may be, than to wait till CO leaks into the house or
it falls down. Plus many chimney guys can also give an opinion as
to what's going on with the flashing.

You are really going out there on a limb, you got the guy's chimney
emitting CO & falling down. He said it's leaking around the chimney, and
showing up near the ceiling. I didn't read any place where they said the CO
detector was going off, they do have these little meters with alarms which
will tell you this, believe it or not.

Obviously, you'd rather wait till you have a CO detector going off.
I'd just prefer to have a 50 year old chimney checked.



You also previously stated: " Depending on the inspection, you can decide
what to do. If it's
condensation related, a steel liner may be a solution. That not only keeps
the water from getting into the house, but also from condensing to begin
with. The liner is much smaller, so the gases have less time to cool
down."

You don't put a liner in the chimney, just to run venting for HVAC. Talk
about a bunch of nonsense, and throwing away money!

Now you show that you really don't know much about chimneys at all.
Steel liners are used all the time in chimneys that serve a HVAC
furnace. A friend of mine just had it done in his old house when his
25 year old oil burner was replaced. There are two very good
reasons. One is many old chimneys were sized for old heating systems,
using coal for example. The chimney is oversized for a modern
furnace and that leads to gases condensing inside the chimney and in
turn causing deterioration in the chimney. The other reason for
using a steel liner is if an inspection shows the interior of the
chimney is deteriorated and it's ability to contain gases is suspect.
((I know, you'd prefer to just ignore those possibilities on a 50 year
old chimney, cause it's still standing and the CO detector isn't going
off) Here's a nice tutorial for you:


http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10323.shtml
Many homeowners never consider the fact that the central heating
system also vents into a chimney. When I point this out and start
talking about health and safety, the expression turns to one of
concern.

How heating changes affect chimneys

The original central heating system in most older homes was fueled by
coal or oil. Many homeowners replace these old furnaces with more
efficient, modern systems, or convert to cleaner burning gas heat.
Unfortunately, the chimney is often neglected in this switch, and this
can cause a two-step problem:

Large chimney flues required for coal and oil are often oversized for
modern, more efficient heating equipment. Much of the combustion heat
from older boilers and furnaces was lost up the chimney. This escaping
heat warmed the chimney and created an adequate updraft. As a result,
very little of the exhaust of the heater condensed before reaching the
atmosphere. Today's heating systems extract more of the heat for
distribution into the home. Flue gases now enter the chimney at a much
lower temperature, creating less draft and more condensation.
Condensation from gas fired equipment reacts with the deposits already
inside the chimney flue from the previous type of fuel. This
condensation water combines with fuel emissions to create sulfuric
acid, which can eat away at terra-cotta liners, exposed bricks or
mortar.


Relining the chimney

Your chimney needs to be relined if:

The interior of the chimney, or the previous liner, has deteriorated
to the point that the emissions from the heating equipment could
escape into the home or cause further damage to the structure of the
chimney.
The flue is oversized for your current heating system. The relining
will reduce the interior dimensions of the chimney. This creates a
higher temperature inside the chimney, increasing draft and reducing
the possibility of the gases condensing before reaching the top. Your
local building inspector or heating contractor may be able to
calculate the dimensions of the flue needed for your heating
equipment.
There are three types of chimney liners:

Cast-in-place concrete lining systems. This is the most expensive
option, and the best option for a chimney that needs structural
reinforcement. You can often avoid rebuilding the entire chimney by
installing a cast lining system. These systems can be used for any
type of fuel, but if your chimney is structurally sound, you may be
able to use a less expensive metal liner.
Stainless steel. These lining sleeves are recommended for coal and oil
systems because they resist corrosive acid emissions these fuels
generate. They can be used in chimneys that are structurally sound.
Galvanized or aluminum sleeves. Similar in construction and function
to stainless, this least expensive option can only be used if both the
furnace and the water heater are natural gas. Never use galvanized or
aluminum with a coal or oil system, because the metal will rapidly
corrode.




You also got the guy buying a new furnace & possibly a water heater! "Of
course, since a liner is $1K+, if it comes to that, you should consider
Hallerb's idea of going with a new direct vent furnace too.Of course, if
you have a gas WH, then you're looking at having to vent that anyway or
replace it too."

Good grief man, give it a rest! You give out some really expensive
information, thank the good Lord, you don't do this for a living.


You left out the part about:

A: Only CONSIDERING a high eff furnace as an alternative if a chimney
inspection shows that the chimney has serious problems that need to be
addressed. If he needs to, the OP can do the math and cost benefit
analysis of going to a 90%+ furnace, the fuel cost savings (as Hallerb
pointed out) vs putting money into a chimney. Apparently, you think
he should just forget about inspections, safety, cost/benefit, not
make his own decision on all the facts, and only listen to you.




As far as a chimney guy "giving" an "opinion", I worked with custom
flashing for close to 30 years, and met a lot of trades persons, and worked
side by side with different trades. And, a sheet metal worker will do the
flashing, not a "chimney guy". I for one would not trust a "chimney guy" or
mason, over the work of a sheet metal worker, with an emphasis on roofing
materials.

I suppose you think that most homeowners that get a new roof or
chimney have the flashing done my a seperate sheet metal contractor,
right? Only union too no doubt. Flashing is routinely done by
roofing, chimney contractors, etc. And like everything else, there
are good ones and bad ones. With your approach to inspection and
safety, I know which category you likely fall into.

wrote
A friend had a stainless liner installed in his chimney.

The chimney was too large for the hot water tank and caused excess
condensation.

Foolish to say the least. Extending a flue pipe is much more economical.

left on the HTML for a NG

Look, can't even reply to a NG correctly. You're messing around with the
HTML.

I stand by my suggestion look into new direct vent furnace, OP said it
was the ONLY thing vented into the chimney.

New furnace can pay for itself and is a INVESTMENT in the home.Energy
prices just go up over time/

This is all fine and dandy, but I'd hate to see what recommendations you
give if someone was asking about paint. You'd say something like buy new
cabinets.

You're information is not fitted for the problem at hand. I'm afraid this
thread is over your head.

wrote

snipped like a thread should be, when only replying to one paragraph or
sentence

You obviously don't believe in preventative maintenance. I do. He
has a 50 year old chimney that he doesn't even know the history of for
48 years. I would have that chimney inspected, whether it was
showing signs of problems or not. And maybe a couple hundred bucks is
a lot of money to you, but to me it's money well spent to know what I
have and any serious problems that may exist.

You miss the point. The thread/problem is way over your head. You don't
throw parts at a problem, and make recommendations that are completely
irrelevant to the problem at hand.

You gave out some really bad information to solve the problem. In all
honesty, you should refrain from replying to posts to which you have zero
knowledge about. For your sake, just save some face, so when you do reply,
people don't take you as a jerk.

On Mar 2, 4:47�pm, "Moe" wrote:
wrote

snipped like a thread should be, when only replying to one paragraph or
sentence

You obviously don't believe in preventative maintenance. *I do. *He
has a 50 year old chimney that he doesn't even know the history of for
48 years. * I would have that chimney inspected, whether it was
showing signs of problems or not. *And maybe a couple hundred bucks is
a lot of money to you, but to me it's money well spent to know what I
have and any serious problems that may exist.

You miss the point. The thread/problem is way over your head. You don't
throw parts at a problem, and make recommendations that are completely
irrelevant to the problem at hand.

You gave out some really bad information to solve the problem. In all
honesty, you should refrain from replying to posts to which you have zero
knowledge about. For your sake, just save some face, so when you do reply,
people don't take you as a jerk.

Moe I shudder to think about the condition your home must be in.

If its not collapsing ignore it.

The trouble is LOTS of stuff can be fixed or maintained easily if
checked on a regular basis.

Sometimes its cheaper to replace a furnace than rebulid a chimney.

If say the home has the original 50 year old furnace you can save 1/2
the energy cost by going from the old fuel guzzler to a spify new 93+
furnce while by removing the top of the chimney elminarte forever
flashing etc. while cutting fuel bill by HALF forever That might
save 3,000 a year in fuel ANNUALLY!

Whoever buys your home next will have a ton of work.

Pointing out OPTIONS is always a good idea!!!

On Mar 2, 5:32 pm, " wrote:
On Mar 2, 4:47?pm, "Moe" wrote:





wrote

snipped like a thread should be, when only replying to one paragraph or
sentence

You obviously don't believe in preventative maintenance. ?I do. ?He
has a 50 year old chimney that he doesn't even know the history of for
48 years. ? I would have that chimney inspected, whether it was
showing signs of problems or not. ?And maybe a couple hundred bucks is
a lot of money to you, but to me it's money well spent to know what I
have and any serious problems that may exist.

You miss the point. The thread/problem is way over your head. You don't
throw parts at a problem, and make recommendations that are completely
irrelevant to the problem at hand.

You gave out some really bad information to solve the problem. In all
honesty, you should refrain from replying to posts to which you have zero
knowledge about. For your sake, just save some face, so when you do reply,
people don't take you as a jerk.

Moe I shudder to think about the condition your home must be in.

If its not collapsing ignore it.

The trouble is LOTS of stuff can be fixed or maintained easily if
checked on a regular basis.


Moe is the only guy I ever heard of that says it's bad advice to have
an inspection done on a 50 year old chimney with unknown history, that
is exhibiting problems. And then he claims chimney liners are never
used on hvac systems, which of course they are. But the thread is
over my head and I look like a jerk? LOL He may know about
flashing, but he doesn't know much about chimneys, preventative
maintenance, or safety.





Sometimes its cheaper to replace a furnace than rebulid a chimney.

If say the home has the original 50 year old furnace you can save 1/2
the energy cost by going from the old fuel guzzler to a spify new 93+
furnce while by removing the top of the chimney elminarte forever
flashing etc. while cutting fuel bill by HALF forever That might
save 3,000 a year in fuel ANNUALLY!

Whoever buys your home next will have a ton of work.

Pointing out OPTIONS is always a good idea!!!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Comments inserted, for the guy that can't figure out how to take the HTML
off.
wrote


Moe I shudder to think about the condition your home must be in.

Just because you believe in putting in a new high efficiency furnace,
because there is a roof leak, doesn't mean everyone lacks as much common
sense as you lack.

And speaking about conditions of homes, I will post some interior and
exterior shots of my home, if you're willing to do the same. Let's go
mouth.


Pointing out OPTIONS is always a good idea!!!

You're pointing out something entirely irrelevant. You really don't have
any knowledge on maitaining a home, the more you open your mouth, the more
you show it.

You don't fix a roof leak, by putting in a high efficiency furnace!
LOL...geesh dude, you're dense.

spewed

Moe is the only guy I ever heard of that says it's bad advice to have
an inspection done on a 50 year old chimney with unknown history, that
is exhibiting problems. And then he claims chimney liners are never
used on hvac systems, which of course they are. But the thread is
over my head and I look like a jerk? LOL He may know about
flashing, but he doesn't know much about chimneys, preventative
maintenance, or safety.

Hey dufus, we're talking about a roof leak. Exactly what don't you
understand, that replacing the furnace is not the way to fix the leak?

I see your reading comprehension hasn't improved either. I said the
"Foolish to say the least. Extending a flue pipe is much more economical."
Not only can't you comprehend, you're a down right liar. Please quote where
I said liners are never used.

I'll give you the same opportunity as your twin dufus. I'll post pictures
of the interior & exterior of my home, if you're willing to do the same.

Good grief man, I suppose you put new windows in, if your driveway is
cracked. I bet the contractors you call, love to see suckers like you.

I'll have to look up what other kind of stupid advice you give out on this
NG. Damn, I hurt from laughing so much.

On Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:47:34 -0500, "Moe" wrote:


spewed

Moe is the only guy I ever heard of that says it's bad advice to have
an inspection done on a 50 year old chimney with unknown history, that
is exhibiting problems. And then he claims chimney liners are never
used on hvac systems, which of course they are. But the thread is
over my head and I look like a jerk? LOL He may know about
flashing, but he doesn't know much about chimneys, preventative
maintenance, or safety.

Hey dufus, we're talking about a roof leak. Exactly what don't you
understand, that replacing the furnace is not the way to fix the leak?

A roof leak that took 2 years to show........IMHO not a really bad
problem.

Silicone on the roof shows there was a problem years ago. It should
have been flashed and tarred

The problem is, the leak may be coming from anywhere as water travels
along the rafters.......which is why I said look in the attic.

Trader,In 40 years of construction, I've yet to see the "perfect
house". You can spend your life fixing things and I'll guarantee you
that in less then a year some other problem pops up. If you're gong to
throw expensive fixes at every minor problem, you not only show you
are at best, a first time home owner, or you haven't grasped this
equity thing yet.

"the driveway is cracked.........replace it!
"the foundation is cracked ( lift the house and pour a new basement)

Ya get the idea?

Don

On Mar 2, 10:39 pm, Don Doherty wrote:
On Fri, 2 Mar 2007 20:47:34 -0500, "Moe" wrote:

spewed

Moe is the only guy I ever heard of that says it's bad advice to have
an inspection done on a 50 year old chimney with unknown history, that
is exhibiting problems. And then he claims chimney liners are never
used on hvac systems, which of course they are. But the thread is
over my head and I look like a jerk? LOL He may know about
flashing, but he doesn't know much about chimneys, preventative
maintenance, or safety.

Hey dufus, we're talking about a roof leak. Exactly what don't you
understand, that replacing the furnace is not the way to fix the leak?

A roof leak that took 2 years to show........IMHO not a really bad
problem.

Silicone on the roof shows there was a problem years ago. It should
have been flashed and tarred

The problem is, the leak may be coming from anywhere as water travels
along the rafters.......which is why I said look in the attic.

Trader,In 40 years of construction, I've yet to see the "perfect
house". You can spend your life fixing things and I'll guarantee you
that in less then a year some other problem pops up. If you're gong to
throw expensive fixes at every minor problem, you not only show you
are at best, a first time home owner, or you haven't grasped this
equity thing yet.

"the driveway is cracked.........replace it!
"the foundation is cracked ( lift the house and pour a new basement)

Ya get the idea?

Don


Don, if you follow the thread, I never suggested throwing expensive
fixes at minor problems. I suggested that he get a chimney inspector
over to do an inspection on a 50 year old chimney, with unkown
history, that is showing signs of problems. A chimney inspection
isn't expensive. Sure, it could very well just be leaking
flashing. Or it could be that and/or a deteriorated chimney, which
he'll never know without having it inspected. Based on what might be
found, I then gave some alternatives, as did Hallerb.

So don't go making assumptions about my background and experience and
I won't make any about your experience or qualifications. I'd like
to see one reference from any credible source that says having an
inspection done on a 50 year old chimney with totally unknown history
that is showing signs of problems is a bad idea. What exactly is
wrong with that? Quite the contrary, you'll find that the available
info would encourage having an inspection done. I already provided a
link that shows alleged expert Moe is clueless about chimneys when he
claimed I was wrong and steel chimney liners are never used in HVAC
applications. So, maybe I know a bit more than you think.

If I bought this house 2 years ago I would have an inspection done
without any signs of problems because I believe in knowing what I have
and fixing things before they become major problems, especially where
safety is a factor. Suppose the 50 year old chimney has a nest or
debris blocking most of the opening? You'd prefer not to know?

On 3 Mar 2007 05:19:39 -0800, wrote:


Don, if you follow the thread, I never suggested throwing expensive
fixes at minor problems. I suggested that he get a chimney inspector
over to do an inspection on a 50 year old chimney, with unkown
history, that is showing signs of problems. A chimney inspection
isn't expensive. Sure, it could very well just be leaking
flashing. Or it could be that and/or a deteriorated chimney, which
he'll never know without having it inspected. Based on what might be
found, I then gave some alternatives, as did Hallerb.

I have followed the thread. Let's agree that the problem is moisture
(proven by the tell tale signs of brownish staining ) Let's also agree
that the problem is between the ceiling and the roof, as moisture is
subject to gravity.

As I don't know where this house is exactly, I'm not familiar with
purchasing practices. Where I am, it is common to have a building
inspected before purchase. The chimney should have been inspected at
that time. I doubt it was inspected as the original poster said he
went on the roof to discover silicone.....which would have been in the
building inspection synopsis.

With the make-shift patch of silicone on the roof, I'm 99% sure that
is the source of the problem. In fact, I have a hard time picturing a
leaking chimney spouting out heated air into the attic; meeting the
cold air and becoming frost, only to be reheated by the leaking
chimney to turn into moisture and flow down the outside of the chimney
through the insulation, and getting at the plaster.

I suspect that this problem started in the summer when it was raining
and has finally worked it's way to the plaster. Now a chimney
inspection would reveal this and for everyone's peace of mind I'll
agree.........but installing a new furnace and the such is just plain
nuts.

So don't go making assumptions about my background and experience and
I won't make any about your experience or qualifications. I'd like
to see one reference from any credible source that says having an
inspection done on a 50 year old chimney with totally unknown history
that is showing signs of problems is a bad idea. What exactly is
wrong with that? Quite the contrary, you'll find that the available
info would encourage having an inspection done. I already provided a
link that shows alleged expert Moe is clueless about chimneys when he
claimed I was wrong and steel chimney liners are never used in HVAC
applications. So, maybe I know a bit more than you think.

If I bought this house 2 years ago I would have an inspection done
without any signs of problems because I believe in knowing what I have
and fixing things before they become major problems, especially where
safety is a factor. Suppose the 50 year old chimney has a nest or
debris blocking most of the opening?

How exactly is a nest or chimney blockage going to cause moisture??


You'd prefer not to know?

I already know

Don

On Mar 3, 11:55 am, Don Doherty wrote:
On 3 Mar 2007 05:19:39 -0800, wrote:

Don, if you follow the thread, I never suggested throwing expensive
fixes at minor problems. I suggested that he get a chimney inspector
over to do an inspection on a 50 year old chimney, with unkown
history, that is showing signs of problems. A chimney inspection
isn't expensive. Sure, it could very well just be leaking
flashing. Or it could be that and/or a deteriorated chimney, which
he'll never know without having it inspected. Based on what might be
found, I then gave some alternatives, as did Hallerb.

I have followed the thread. Let's agree that the problem is moisture
(proven by the tell tale signs of brownish staining ) Let's also agree
that the problem is between the ceiling and the roof, as moisture is
subject to gravity.

As I don't know where this house is exactly, I'm not familiar with
purchasing practices. Where I am, it is common to have a building
inspected before purchase. The chimney should have been inspected at
that time. I doubt it was inspected as the original poster said he
went on the roof to discover silicone.....which would have been in the
building inspection synopsis.

With the make-shift patch of silicone on the roof, I'm 99% sure that
is the source of the problem.

Anyone who has dealt with any problems of this type, knows that to
make the above statement of being 99% certain of the cause of a
chimney water problem that you haven't even seen is foolish.



In fact, I have a hard time picturing a
leaking chimney spouting out heated air into the attic; meeting the
cold air and becoming frost, only to be reheated by the leaking
chimney to turn into moisture and flow down the outside of the chimney
through the insulation, and getting at the plaster.

I suspect that this problem started in the summer when it was raining
and has finally worked it's way to the plaster. Now a chimney
inspection would reveal this and for everyone's peace of mind I'll
agree.........but installing a new furnace and the such is just plain
nuts.


Please stop trying to make it look like I said to install a new
furnace because of water showing up on the wall by his chimney,
because it's untrue. One more time:

I suggested he get his 50 year old chimney inspected. It seems you
think it should have been done when he purchased the house 2 years ago
and also that it's unlikely that it was done at that time. So,
what's your problem with having it inspected now?

And again, if you read what I posted, I only brought up the
possibility of considering a new high efficiency direct vent furnace
as an alternative if it's determined the chimney has serious problems
that require costly repairs. What's your problem with that?

Had the chimney pro out for a look.

The chimney is too large diameter for the furnace. This causes
condensation about halfway up the chimney, which is leaking out into
the plaster work. Chimney guy's solution was to place a liner inside
the chimney, and as predicted, this runs about $1K.

He did mention the option of replacing the furnace with a direct vent
furnace, but it is a new furnace ('03/04) and a relatively effecient
one, so I can't see replacing the furnace.

Line the chimney it is, then.

On Mar 3, 4:03 pm, "alath" wrote:
Had the chimney pro out for a look.

The chimney is too large diameter for the furnace. This causes
condensation about halfway up the chimney, which is leaking out into
the plaster work. Chimney guy's solution was to place a liner inside
the chimney, and as predicted, this runs about $1K.

He did mention the option of replacing the furnace with a direct vent
furnace, but it is a new furnace ('03/04) and a relatively effecient
one, so I can't see replacing the furnace.

Line the chimney it is, then.


Good for you! Thanks for the update. All to often we don't hear how
things turn out.

And how sweet it is!

Heh Don, remember this gem:

"With the make-shift patch of silicone on the roof, I'm 99% sure that
is the source of the problem. " Doh!

Or how about that genius Moe, who said I was an idiot for suggesting
in my first post that you get an inspection and that condensation in
an oversize chimney might be the problem. Moe then ridiculed me for
suggesting a steel chimney liner might be used on a furnace for
exactly this problem? LOL

And of course, by doing the right thing and getting it inspected,
you've saved the chimney from failing do to the acidic flue gases
condensing and destroying it over time.

That;s my last word on this thread. I'm off to go snowboarding for a
few days. By all!!

On Mar 3, 5:43�pm, wrote:
On Mar 3, 4:03 pm, "alath" wrote:

Had the chimney pro out for a look.

The chimney is too large diameter for the furnace. This causes
condensation about halfway up the chimney, which is leaking out into
the plaster work. Chimney guy's solution was to place a liner inside
the chimney, and as predicted, this runs about $1K.

He did mention the option of replacing the furnace with a direct vent
furnace, but it is a new furnace ('03/04) and a relatively effecient
one, so I can't see replacing the furnace.

Line the chimney it is, then.

Good for you! * Thanks for the update. *All to often we don't hear how
things turn out.

And how sweet it is!

Heh Don, remember this gem:

"With the make-shift patch of silicone on the roof, I'm 99% sure that
is the source of the problem. " * *Doh!

Or how about that genius Moe, who said I was an idiot for suggesting
in my first post that you get an inspection and that condensation in
an oversize chimney might be the problem. *Moe then ridiculed me for
suggesting a steel chimney liner might be used on a furnace for
exactly this problem? * LOL

And of course, by doing the right thing and getting it inspected,
you've saved the chimney from failing do to the acidic flue gases
condensing and destroying it over time.

That;s my last word on this thread. * I'm off to go snowboarding for a
few days. * By all!!

Hey it all worked out, and if it was a elderly furnace you may have
decided to replace it.

I give OPTIONS, its up to the poster to decide what to do!

On 3 Mar 2007 10:37:07 -0800, wrote:

On Mar 3, 11:55 am, Don Doherty wrote:
On 3 Mar 2007 05:19:39 -0800, wrote:

Don, if you follow the thread, I never suggested throwing expensive
fixes at minor problems. I suggested that he get a chimney inspector
over to do an inspection on a 50 year old chimney, with unkown
history, that is showing signs of problems. A chimney inspection
isn't expensive. Sure, it could very well just be leaking
flashing. Or it could be that and/or a deteriorated chimney, which
he'll never know without having it inspected. Based on what might be
found, I then gave some alternatives, as did Hallerb.

I have followed the thread. Let's agree that the problem is moisture
(proven by the tell tale signs of brownish staining ) Let's also agree
that the problem is between the ceiling and the roof, as moisture is
subject to gravity.

As I don't know where this house is exactly, I'm not familiar with
purchasing practices. Where I am, it is common to have a building
inspected before purchase. The chimney should have been inspected at
that time. I doubt it was inspected as the original poster said he
went on the roof to discover silicone.....which would have been in the
building inspection synopsis.

With the make-shift patch of silicone on the roof, I'm 99% sure that
is the source of the problem.

Anyone who has dealt with any problems of this type, knows that to
make the above statement of being 99% certain of the cause of a
chimney water problem that you haven't even seen is foolish.

I'm 99% sure you have your head up your ass.



In fact, I have a hard time picturing a
leaking chimney spouting out heated air into the attic; meeting the
cold air and becoming frost, only to be reheated by the leaking
chimney to turn into moisture and flow down the outside of the chimney
through the insulation, and getting at the plaster.

I suspect that this problem started in the summer when it was raining
and has finally worked it's way to the plaster. Now a chimney
inspection would reveal this and for everyone's peace of mind I'll
agree.........but installing a new furnace and the such is just plain
nuts.


Please stop trying to make it look like I said to install a new
furnace because of water showing up on the wall by his chimney,
because it's untrue. One more time:

I suggested he get his 50 year old chimney inspected. It seems you
think it should have been done when he purchased the house 2 years ago
and also that it's unlikely that it was done at that time. So,
what's your problem with having it inspected now?

I'm 99% sure you also have no reading comprehension as I agreed with a
chimney inspection above.

And again, if you read what I posted, I only brought up the
possibility of considering a new high efficiency direct vent furnace
as an alternative if it's determined the chimney has serious problems
that require costly repairs. What's your problem with that?

I'm 99% sure that you're going to have the last word here as I'm done.
Hopefully the original got some info out of this prolonged thread.

Oh, yea.........how does chimney blockage cause moisture again??

Interesting you should say that. I've been assistant on a lot of
chimney liner pulls. We used flexible metal liner. Dropped a wire
from the roof, and pulled it through.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Moe" wrote in message
...
:
: You don't put a liner in the chimney, just to run venting for
HVAC. Talk
: about a bunch of nonsense, and throwing away money!
:

Any idea what it cost for the liner install?

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

wrote in message
oups.com...
: A friend had a stainless liner installed in his chimney.
:
: The chimney was too large for the hot water tank and caused
excess
: condensation.
:
:

and please let us know if the liner stops the leak.

"alath" wrote in message
oups.com...
Had the chimney pro out for a look.

The chimney is too large diameter for the furnace. This causes
condensation about halfway up the chimney, which is leaking out into
the plaster work. Chimney guy's solution was to place a liner inside
the chimney, and as predicted, this runs about $1K.

He did mention the option of replacing the furnace with a direct vent
furnace, but it is a new furnace ('03/04) and a relatively effecient
one, so I can't see replacing the furnace.

Line the chimney it is, then.