In article , "Eigenvector"
wrote:

"DanG" wrote in message
news
I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work something
hot.

--

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this kind of
repair work and so there were these questions that came to mind. I had to
replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to do it, but wires won't
show electricty in them, so before grasping them to undo the pigtail I
grabbed my voltmeter and touched the wires. I didn't see any readings so I
thought - Hmm maybe my voltmeter isn't working. So I was about to stick the
probes in the outlet when the thought occured to me that maybe that isn't
such a smart idea either. So I figured, why not, I'll ask here and save
myself a trip to the emergency room and only pay the price of looking
stupid.

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and wait for others to confirm before
you attempt repairs. If you touched your voltmeter to the wires on the
dimmer, I wouldn't expect to see any voltage at all. The two wires there
are the load side of the circuit (black wire) and you won't show voltage
there. You need a neutral or ground to complete the circuit with your
multimeter.

In some houses, touching the metal box provides a ground. Something I do
is to plug in an extension cord and use the ground portion of the plug
(having tested it for polarity and ground) to complete the circuit, along
with the switch.

If you weren't touching both wires to the switch, but the power pigtail
and the neutral pigtail, then nevermind.

--
charles

In article , tt (Charles Bishop) wrote:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and wait for others to confirm before
you attempt repairs. If you touched your voltmeter to the wires on the
dimmer, I wouldn't expect to see any voltage at all.

That depends on whether the dimmer is on or off -- if it's off, I'd certainly
expect to see voltage between the two terminals on the dimmer, wouldn't you?

The two wires there
are the load side of the circuit (black wire) and you won't show voltage
there. You need a neutral or ground to complete the circuit with your
multimeter.

The circuit is completed through the light bulb(s).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:45:43 -0800, "Eigenvector"
...snipped...
Yes. The important thing about teeth is often that you have them with
you.


Usually, but I can still work on wiring without them,

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

People said:
...snipped...
Care to explain how that's going to happen with the breaker off?

--

Well not answering for him, but I was asking about this in the off-chance
...snipped...

Actually, I read the OP too quickly and thought that the question was
worded as "OR" rather than "AND" OTOH, if I am working on a job
where I feel it is necessary to shut off the breaker, I would still
use my old Ideal tester before I touched any bare wires. Especially
in older houses; just too much is possible.


--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the
colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off.
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a
perfect world there should not be power on the neutrals if everything
is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so. You do not tell if your wiring
is new enough to have a ground, either green or bare. Turn off the
breaker, check between black and white - no power; then use your
tester between the black and the green - no power; use your tester
between the white and the green - no power, you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity that
can allow current through your heart. If you are not grounded,
barefoot, in a puddle of water, or some other grounding you might
feel a tingle, but the current can't go through you. I am not
suggesting this, but some old electricians might use their finger in
a light socket to check for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1)
the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the
neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and
pig-tail them (like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so
long as I'm not touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that
circuit is off. I'm not trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm
trying to make sure that in situation where switching off the
breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and
jam them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do
exactly what I would expect it to do - read the potential difference
between the two sockets in AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is
reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry
voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them
with your teeth if you had to?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being
when
I use both of my hands when handling live wires and devices. I also
try to use my head

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this
kind of repair work and so there were these questions that came to mind.
I had to replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to do it,
but wires won't show electricty in them, so before grasping them to undo
the pigtail I grabbed my voltmeter and touched the wires. I didn't see
any readings so I thought - Hmm maybe my voltmeter isn't working. So I
was about to stick the probes in the outlet when the thought occured to
me that maybe that isn't such a smart idea either. So I figured, why
not, I'll ask here and save myself a trip to the emergency room and only
pay the price of looking stupid.
"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
"DanG" wrote in message
news I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work
something hot.

--

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
When in doubt... Throw the main

Assuming your panel has main that is....


RBM wrote:
By code, it has to have at least one

That is simply untrue. Any service can have up to six mains switches,
fused pull outs, or circuit breakers. Any single panel can have two
separate disconnecting means each controlling only a portion of the panel.
--
Tom Horne

RBM wrote:
The Nec requires up to six service disconnects. If you only have one
, it kills everything. If you have more than one, you need to shut
them all to kill everything

"Tom J" wrote in message
. net...
RBM wrote:
By code, it has to have at least one
But by code, the main doesn't necessarly kill everything in the
panel. Tom J
who has 1 of thousands like that

Tom J wrote:
In these thousands of panels like mine that was installed in the '60's
and are still in production and being sold today, the breaker marked
MAIN only cuts off the 110V circuits that are below it. All the 220V
breakers above it and the buss for them is still hot when the MAIN
breaker is off. None of the 220 breakers say MAIN, and even if they
did, the buss bars are still hot. People that don't understand how
panels are wired really need to get an electrician when it comes time
to add things to the service panel.

Tom J

Those are not still sold in the US because the US code now requires
lighting and appliance panel boards to have no more than two
disconnecting means.
--
Tom Horne

Thomas Horne wrote:

Those are not still sold in the US because the US code now requires
lighting and appliance panel boards to have no more than two
disconnecting means.

Really, they are not sold anymore? I don't think
the installer stole the one that was just installed last week??

Tom J

Tom J wrote:
Thomas Horne wrote:

Those are not still sold in the US because the US code now requires
lighting and appliance panel boards to have no more than two
disconnecting means.

Really, they are not sold anymore? I don't think
the installer stole the one that was just installed last week??

Tom J


All right I'll play your game. What is the manufacturer and the model
number?
--
Tom Horne

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:28:53 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:11:41 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
(Larry) wrote:
In article ,
Eigenvector wrote:
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral AND
the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like when

adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be
ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for that
fixture.

If you are standing on a conductive surface such as possibly a
damp concrete floor, or if your hand comes into contact with a
metal junction box or other grounded surface, you could still get a
serious shock. That's one reason electricians favor wooden or fiberglass
ladders.

Care to explain how that's going to happen with the breaker off?

Maybe it's the breaker you THOUGHT was off, or there's another circuit
in there and you don't know it.

Yes, of course -- but the question asked was whether it was possible to get
shocked with the breaker turned off. Turning off the *wrong* breaker is not
the condition specified in the original question.

Of course, anyone can (and does) AT ALL TIMES distinguish between
"knowing the breaker is off" and "thinking the breaker is off, but it
isn't".

Puddin' Man wrote:
20+ years ago I needed a new svc. panel. I looked at such split buss
panels and recoiled. Installed the simplest imaginable 200a panel
with "The One True Main" breaker and never regretted it.

As I recall, such panels weren't much more expensive than split buss.
A professional electrician would do much better than I with split
buss, but it's hard for me to imagine a complex job being easier
with split buss, regardless of training/experience.

Just curious. Why were (residential) split buss panels so
extensively used?

I have no definitive answer. What is (or was) the price difference
between a 50 amp and 100 amp double pole breaker? If the latter is
substantially more, that can potentially justify using a split bus panel.

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
,
tt (Charles Bishop) wrote:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and wait for others to confirm before
you attempt repairs. If you touched your voltmeter to the wires on the
dimmer, I wouldn't expect to see any voltage at all.

That depends on whether the dimmer is on or off -- if it's off, I'd certainly
expect to see voltage between the two terminals on the dimmer, wouldn't you?

I wouldn't. Is the voltage due to the resistance of the dimmer? You don't
see voltage between the terminals of a regular switch do you?


The two wires there
are the load side of the circuit (black wire) and you won't show voltage
there. You need a neutral or ground to complete the circuit with your
multimeter.

The circuit is completed through the light bulb(s).

Interesting. I'll check next time I get a chance.

--
charles

Doug Miller wrote:

No, it absolutely is *not* true that "neutrals ... are usually shared by two
circuits."

Normal installation is for each circuit to have its own neutral.

In Canada, "normal" installation for kitchen counter circuits is to use
shared-neutral 15A circuits.

Chris

In article t, wrote:

RBM wrote:
By code, it has to have at least one

That is simply untrue. Any service can have up to six mains switches,
fused pull outs, or circuit breakers. Any single panel can have two
separate disconnecting means each controlling only a portion of the panel.

Ummmm.... "one" is included in "up to six". RBM's point was that "none" is not
an option permitted by Code.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , John R wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 00:28:53 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Mark Lloyd
wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:11:41 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
(Larry) wrote:
In article ,
Eigenvector wrote:
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral
AND
the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like
when

adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be

ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where

switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for that
fixture.

If you are standing on a conductive surface such as possibly a
damp concrete floor, or if your hand comes into contact with a
metal junction box or other grounded surface, you could still get a
serious shock. That's one reason electricians favor wooden or fiberglass
ladders.

Care to explain how that's going to happen with the breaker off?

Maybe it's the breaker you THOUGHT was off, or there's another circuit
in there and you don't know it.

Yes, of course -- but the question asked was whether it was possible to get
shocked with the breaker turned off. Turning off the *wrong* breaker is not
the condition specified in the original question.

Of course, anyone can (and does) AT ALL TIMES distinguish between
"knowing the breaker is off" and "thinking the breaker is off, but it
isn't".

Hence the large number of responses, mine included, advising the OP to test
first anyway. The point remains that it is not possible to get a shock from a
circuit that is not energized -- which is what the OP asked about.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , tt (Charles Bishop) wrote:
In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
,
(Charles Bishop) wrote:

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and wait for others to confirm before
you attempt repairs. If you touched your voltmeter to the wires on the
dimmer, I wouldn't expect to see any voltage at all.

That depends on whether the dimmer is on or off -- if it's off, I'd certainly
expect to see voltage between the two terminals on the dimmer, wouldn't you?

I wouldn't.

Then you should alter your expectations to conform to reality. :-)

Is the voltage due to the resistance of the dimmer?

No, the light bulb(s), as I noted.

You don't
see voltage between the terminals of a regular switch do you?

Yes -- you should try it some time.


The two wires there
are the load side of the circuit (black wire) and you won't show voltage
there. You need a neutral or ground to complete the circuit with your
multimeter.

The circuit is completed through the light bulb(s).

Interesting. I'll check next time I get a chance.

Do that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

No, it absolutely is *not* true that "neutrals ... are usually shared by two
circuits."

Normal installation is for each circuit to have its own neutral.

In Canada, "normal" installation for kitchen counter circuits is to use
shared-neutral 15A circuits.

Quite so -- but, as I understand it, that's not the norm *except* in kitchens.
And it's certainly not the norm in the US, kitchens or otherwise.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Re phone lines=---It is very possable for a phone line to have enough
current to get a good shock.
Telephone lines have a standing voltage of 48vdc and super impossed ac
of up to 100 v. for ringing but very low amps. So if you are working on
a phone line and ringing currant comes across that line you would feel
it. It could startle you and make you fall off of a ladder etc. Allways
be careful.

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:13:24 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

Haven't got a clue.

Not exactly the response I expected.

I hate the damn things, not to mention how potentially
dangerous they are.

Comprendere, senor.

With a single main disconnect, say 200 amp, when your
load reaches that point, it trips.

And if one manually opens the main, barring a fault of a certain kind
and/or a main breaker failure, one can expect that there is -no-
power anywhere in the house (given a simple, single svc. panel
application)?

With a split buss, you "could" have six
100 amp main disconnects on the same 200 amp service, depending upon the
actual load in the building, presuming it's less than 200 amp. Thirty years
goes by, countless DIY's , handy men, etc, and who knows what's actually
being drawn through the service conductors

And it can take (at least figuratively) 40 days and 40 nites
to precisely figure out what's what in the circuitry? :-)

Your honesty is appreciated.

I'll assume split buss (residential) prevalence has *something*
to do with "The Industry" until I have evidence to the contrary.

Thanks,
Puddin'


"Puddin' Man" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:41:05 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Yep, that's a split buss panel, and all the breakers on top are "mains"
and
yes, that panel has main lugs and upper buss that is always live

20+ years ago I needed a new svc. panel. I looked at such split buss
panels and recoiled. Installed the simplest imaginable 200a panel
with "The One True Main" breaker and never regretted it.

As I recall, such panels weren't much more expensive than split buss.
A professional electrician would do much better than I with split
buss, but it's hard for me to imagine a complex job being easier
with split buss, regardless of training/experience.

Just curious. Why were (residential) split buss panels so
extensively used?

Cheers,
Puddin'


"Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather
than the victim."
- Bertrand Russell

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth
if you had to?

Phone circuit has approx 50 volts DC idle and approx 80 volts AC ring
voltage. will cause curse words to come out of your mouth or worse if you
have a bad ticker.

Well not answering for him, but I was asking about this in the off-chance
that the breaker might not have been off. I was more interested in whether
or not a shock is possible when all you're touching is two hot wires -
obviously when the breaker's off you shouldn't get shocked (but that's why
you measure it with a meter first) at any time. I realize that this is one
of those questions where I'm treading on dangerous ground and the responses
need to be stated carefully so as not to mislead someone reading it who may
not have been following the whole conversation.

If there are two hots, the chances are they're opposite polarity.
Otherwise, why would there be two of them?

Hence the large number of responses, mine included, advising the OP to test
first anyway. The point remains that it is not possible to get a shock from a
circuit that is not energized -- which is what the OP asked about.

Well... Absent broadcast power, big static charges, and huge motors
winding downs....

Tom J wrote:
In these thousands of panels like mine that was installed in the '60's
and are still in production and being sold today, the breaker marked
MAIN only cuts off the 110V circuits that are below it. All the 220V
breakers above it and the buss for them is still hot when the MAIN
breaker is off. None of the 220 breakers say MAIN, and even if they
did, the buss bars are still hot. People that don't understand how
panels are wired really need to get an electrician when it comes time
to add things to the service panel.

Re "MAIN" - all service disconnects are required to be marked.


Tom J

Those are not still sold in the US because the US code now requires
lighting and appliance panel boards to have no more than two
disconnecting means.
--
Tom Horne

I looked that up earlier in the thread - NEC 408.36-A. What is the
intent of "2"? Seems like that allows continued installation of the old
"main and range" fuse panels with 2 60A pullouts, one for the plug fuses
(or equivalent CB panels).

[Exception #2 specifically grandfathers old split bus service panels.]

--
bud--

On Feb 10, 3:33 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral AND
the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like when
adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be
ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for that
fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam them
into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly what I would
expect it to do - read the potential difference between the two sockets in
AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth if
you had to?

Well..... if as you suggest, for some reason tripping the breaker
hasn't cut off the power to the fixture (like, you shut off the wrong
breaker)... and if the new item you're splicing in has continuity to
ground, like if it's a socket and there is a bulb in it and you've
already connected the white wire, then the "hot wire" coming from that
socket will effectively be at ground and putting yourself between it
and the hot wire from the breaker will zap you. So.... always double
check to make sure your hot wire is actually not hot when you are
working on it, even if the breaker is off; try as much as possible to
ensure that while you are working you have disconnected possible paths
to ground, i.e. bulbs removed, switches off, connect the hot wires
first with the neutral wire floating rather than the reverse. As long
as there is no path to ground, you can dance on the hot wire all day,
the way birds and squirrels sit on the power lines.

You've got the correct picture re the voltmeter. Don't do what I did
as a cub scout and plug in the wires, then switch the switch over to
volts, passing through the current ranges en route....

Phone voltage is pretty borderline; it's about 50ish, which you can
work on barehanded, provided you don't have a bad heart, your skin is
dry enough to to provide some resistance, etc. However, the ring
voltage is a hundred and some, so if you're working on the lines and
the phone rings, you'll know it.

On Feb 12, 1:30 pm, "z" wrote:

Phone voltage is pretty borderline; it's about 50ish, which you can
work on barehanded, provided you don't have a bad heart, your skin is
dry enough to to provide some resistance, etc. However, the ring
voltage is a hundred and some, so if you're working on the lines and
the phone rings, you'll know it.

Which reminds me of a story from Jeff Foxworthy's act; in his "real"
job, when they would hire a new secretary or such he and his friend
would inform her that they were going to test the phone line, and if
the phone rang, don't answer it. Then they would dial her phone and
let it ring forever; if she answered it, they would scream into the
phone like they were being electrocuted.