A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral AND
the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like when
adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be
ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for that
fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam them
into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly what I would
expect it to do - read the potential difference between the two sockets in
AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth if
you had to?

The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the
colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off.
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a
perfect world there should not be power on the neutrals if
everything is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so. You do not tell
if your wiring is new enough to have a ground, either green or
bare. Turn off the breaker, check between black and white - no
power; then use your tester between the black and the green - no
power; use your tester between the white and the green - no power,
you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity
that can allow current through your heart. If you are not
grounded, barefoot, in a puddle of water, or some other grounding
you might feel a tingle, but the current can't go through you. I
am not suggesting this, but some old electricians might use their
finger in a light socket to check for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test
myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as
1) the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching
both the neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot
wires and pig-tail them (like when adding in a dimmer) I won't
get shocked so long as I'm not touching the neutral wire AND the
breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be ultra safe
here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off
for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter
and jam them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit
but do exactly what I would expect it to do - read the potential
difference between the two sockets in AC volts (assuming your
voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally
carry voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially
splice them with your teeth if you had to?

In article , "DanG" wrote:
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits.

False.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Feb 10, 3:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "DanG" wrote:
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits.

False.

True. It was the practice to have shared neutral circuits, you get two
circuits out of 3 wires. The 2 hots were supposed to be hooked up to
different busbars, so that the currents in the neutral were out of
phase, but over the years, they end up sometimes on the same side. If
I can't run an extra wire, I'll hook the two up to a ganged breaker,
so that they're on opposite busbars, and on breaker turns both off.

It is relevant here, because when they're on different breakers,
throwing one breaker doesn't mean that the neutral isn't hot.

From what I know about neutrals, they ALL are connected together in the
panel to a "neutral bar". I would think, therefore, that the neutral has a
potential to carry current even though the "hot" on the breaker side is
disconnected, just not through that particular "hot" wire. If for some
reason the neutrals are not grounded properly, and you happen to be, that
could be a problem. Is this not correct?
B

"Nexus7" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 10, 3:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "DanG"
wrote:
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits.

False.

True. It was the practice to have shared neutral circuits, you get two
circuits out of 3 wires. The 2 hots were supposed to be hooked up to
different busbars, so that the currents in the neutral were out of
phase, but over the years, they end up sometimes on the same side. If
I can't run an extra wire, I'll hook the two up to a ganged breaker,
so that they're on opposite busbars, and on breaker turns both off.

It is relevant here, because when they're on different breakers,
throwing one breaker doesn't mean that the neutral isn't hot.

On Feb 11, 1:53 pm, "Brian O" wrote:
From what I know about neutrals, they ALL are connected together in the
panel to a "neutralbar". I would think, therefore, that theneutralhas a
potential to carry current even though the "hot" on the breaker side is
disconnected, just not through that particular "hot" wire. If for some
reason the neutrals are not grounded properly, and you happen to be, that
could be a problem. Is this not correct?

You're referring to the situation when the neutrals become somehow
disconnected from the neutral busbar, but remain connected to each
other. One specific instance of that problem happens in a shared
neutral circuit, and is why shared neutral circuits are "bad."
However, you're referring to a situation with a fault.

The GP is warning that if the OP's house has shared neutral circuits,
the neutral is live, even without any fault, when only the breaker for
one side if turned off.

In article .com, "Nexus7" wrote:
On Feb 10, 3:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "DanG"
wrote:
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits.

False.

True.

No, it absolutely is *not* true that "neutrals ... are usually shared by two
circuits."

Normal installation is for each circuit to have its own neutral.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Feb 11, 1:51 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
"Nexus7" wrote:
On Feb 10, 3:01 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
DanG" wrote:

Neutrals, the white one, are usuallysharedby two circuits.
False.
True.
No, it absolutely is *not* true that "neutrals ... are usuallysharedby two
circuits."
Normal installation is for each circuit to have its ownneutral.

Can you define "normal" installation?

The posting followed up to advised the OP that he should watch out for
shared-neutral circuits. That is a valid concern, regardless of what
you think "normal" installation is.

Doug Miller wrote:

No, it absolutely is *not* true that "neutrals ... are usually shared by two
circuits."

Normal installation is for each circuit to have its own neutral.

In Canada, "normal" installation for kitchen counter circuits is to use
shared-neutral 15A circuits.

Chris

Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being when I use
both of my hands when handling live wires and devices. I also try to use my
head


"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the colored
power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off. Neutrals, the
white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a perfect world there
should not be power on the neutrals if everything is wired correctly. DO
NOT assume so. You do not tell if your wiring is new enough to have a
ground, either green or bare. Turn off the breaker, check between black
and white - no power; then use your tester between the black and the
green - no power; use your tester between the white and the green - no
power, you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity that can
allow current through your heart. If you are not grounded, barefoot, in a
puddle of water, or some other grounding you might feel a tingle, but the
current can't go through you. I am not suggesting this, but some old
electricians might use their finger in a light socket to check for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral
AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them
(like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not
touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm
not trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that
in situation where switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power
is off for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam
them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly what
I would expect it to do - read the potential difference between the two
sockets in AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry
voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with
your teeth if you had to?

I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work
something hot.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being
when I use both of my hands when handling live wires and
devices. I also try to use my head


"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on
the colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is
turned off. Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two
circuits. In a perfect world there should not be power on the
neutrals if everything is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so.
You do not tell if your wiring is new enough to have a ground,
either green or bare. Turn off the breaker, check between
black and white - no power; then use your tester between the
black and the green - no power; use your tester between the
white and the green - no power, you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity
that can allow current through your heart. If you are not
grounded, barefoot, in a puddle of water, or some other
grounding you might feel a tingle, but the current can't go
through you. I am not suggesting this, but some old
electricians might use their finger in a light socket to check
for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test
myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long
as 1) the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't
touching both the neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I
grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like when adding in a
dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not
trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make
sure that in situation where switching off the breaker isn't a
guarentee that power is off for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter
and jam them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit
but do exactly what I would expect it to do - read the
potential difference between the two sockets in AC volts
(assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally
carry voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially
splice them with your teeth if you had to?

"DanG" wrote in message
news
I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work something
hot.

--

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this kind of
repair work and so there were these questions that came to mind. I had to
replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to do it, but wires won't
show electricty in them, so before grasping them to undo the pigtail I
grabbed my voltmeter and touched the wires. I didn't see any readings so I
thought - Hmm maybe my voltmeter isn't working. So I was about to stick the
probes in the outlet when the thought occured to me that maybe that isn't
such a smart idea either. So I figured, why not, I'll ask here and save
myself a trip to the emergency room and only pay the price of looking
stupid.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being when I
use both of my hands when handling live wires and devices. I also try to
use my head


"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the colored
power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off. Neutrals, the
white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a perfect world there
should not be power on the neutrals if everything is wired correctly.
DO NOT assume so. You do not tell if your wiring is new enough to have a
ground, either green or bare. Turn off the breaker, check between black
and white - no power; then use your tester between the black and the
green - no power; use your tester between the white and the green - no
power, you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity that can
allow current through your heart. If you are not grounded, barefoot, in
a puddle of water, or some other grounding you might feel a tingle, but
the current can't go through you. I am not suggesting this, but some
old electricians might use their finger in a light socket to check for
power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1)
the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the
neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and
pig-tail them (like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so
long as I'm not touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that
circuit is off. I'm not trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm
trying to make sure that in situation where switching off the breaker
isn't a guarentee that power is off for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam
them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly
what I would expect it to do - read the potential difference between
the two sockets in AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC
volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry
voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with
your teeth if you had to?

In article , "Eigenvector" wrote:

"DanG" wrote in message
news
I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work something
hot.

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this kind of
repair work and so there were these questions that came to mind. I had to
replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to do it, but wires won't
show electricty in them, so before grasping them to undo the pigtail I
grabbed my voltmeter and touched the wires. I didn't see any readings so I
thought - Hmm maybe my voltmeter isn't working. So I was about to stick the
probes in the outlet when the thought occured to me that maybe that isn't
such a smart idea either. So I figured, why not, I'll ask here and save
myself a trip to the emergency room and only pay the price of looking
stupid.

Outstanding idea.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

When in doubt... Throw the main



"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

"DanG" wrote in message
news
I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work
something hot.

--

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this kind
of repair work and so there were these questions that came to mind. I had
to replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to do it, but wires
won't show electricty in them, so before grasping them to undo the pigtail
I grabbed my voltmeter and touched the wires. I didn't see any readings
so I thought - Hmm maybe my voltmeter isn't working. So I was about to
stick the probes in the outlet when the thought occured to me that maybe
that isn't such a smart idea either. So I figured, why not, I'll ask here
and save myself a trip to the emergency room and only pay the price of
looking stupid.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being when I
use both of my hands when handling live wires and devices. I also try to
use my head


"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the
colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off.
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a
perfect world there should not be power on the neutrals if everything
is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so. You do not tell if your wiring is
new enough to have a ground, either green or bare. Turn off the
breaker, check between black and white - no power; then use your tester
between the black and the green - no power; use your tester between the
white and the green - no power, you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity that can
allow current through your heart. If you are not grounded, barefoot,
in a puddle of water, or some other grounding you might feel a tingle,
but the current can't go through you. I am not suggesting this, but
some old electricians might use their finger in a light socket to check
for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1)
the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the
neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and
pig-tail them (like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so
long as I'm not touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that
circuit is off. I'm not trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm
trying to make sure that in situation where switching off the breaker
isn't a guarentee that power is off for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam
them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly
what I would expect it to do - read the potential difference between
the two sockets in AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC
volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry
voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with
your teeth if you had to?

Eigenvector wrote:
"DanG" wrote in message
news
I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work
something hot.

--

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this
kind of repair work and so there were these questions that came to
mind. I had to replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to
do it, but wires won't show electricty in them, so before grasping
them to undo the pigtail I grabbed my voltmeter and touched the
wires. I didn't see any readings so I thought - Hmm maybe my
voltmeter isn't working. So I was about to stick the probes in the
outlet when the thought occured to me that maybe that isn't such a
smart idea either. So I figured, why not, I'll ask here and save
myself a trip to the emergency room and only pay the price of looking
stupid.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being
when I use both of my hands when handling live wires and devices. I
also try to use my head


"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the
colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off.
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a
perfect world there should not be power on the neutrals if
everything is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so. You do not tell
if your wiring is new enough to have a ground, either green or
bare. Turn off the breaker, check between black and white - no
power; then use your tester between the black and the green - no
power; use your tester between the white and the green - no power,
you're good to go. It is good practice to never use both hands around
electricity
that can allow current through your heart. If you are not
grounded, barefoot, in a puddle of water, or some other grounding
you might feel a tingle, but the current can't go through you. I
am not suggesting this, but some old electricians might use their
finger in a light socket to check for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test
myself. When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long
as
1) the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching
both the neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot
wires and pig-tail them (like when adding in a dimmer) I won't
get shocked so long as I'm not touching the neutral wire AND the
breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be ultra safe
here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for
that fixture. Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt
meter and
jam them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do
exactly what I would expect it to do - read the potential
difference between the two sockets in AC volts (assuming your
voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry
voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them
with your teeth if you had to?

The only thing to watch out for with a meter is to be certain it's set to
read Voltage and not Current (I) or Resistance (R) when you stick the probes
into an outlet.
Hopefully such a mistake would only blow the fuse in it, but it's almost
as likely to fry the whole unit, depending.
You also have to be sure it's Volts AC too of course. You'll get
inaccurate numbers if it's set to to DC Volts.

HTH
Pop`

In article , "Eigenvector"
wrote:

"DanG" wrote in message
news
I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work something
hot.

--

I appreciate the swift responses. I am relatively new to doing this kind of
repair work and so there were these questions that came to mind. I had to
replace the dimmer, I've seen it done and know how to do it, but wires won't
show electricty in them, so before grasping them to undo the pigtail I
grabbed my voltmeter and touched the wires. I didn't see any readings so I
thought - Hmm maybe my voltmeter isn't working. So I was about to stick the
probes in the outlet when the thought occured to me that maybe that isn't
such a smart idea either. So I figured, why not, I'll ask here and save
myself a trip to the emergency room and only pay the price of looking
stupid.

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and wait for others to confirm before
you attempt repairs. If you touched your voltmeter to the wires on the
dimmer, I wouldn't expect to see any voltage at all. The two wires there
are the load side of the circuit (black wire) and you won't show voltage
there. You need a neutral or ground to complete the circuit with your
multimeter.

In some houses, touching the metal box provides a ground. Something I do
is to plug in an extension cord and use the ground portion of the plug
(having tested it for polarity and ground) to complete the circuit, along
with the switch.

If you weren't touching both wires to the switch, but the power pigtail
and the neutral pigtail, then nevermind.

--
charles

I agree with you totally, but the advice is for someone who is
uncomfortable and on new territory. He is not asking how to work
something hot.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Personally, I feel that I have better control over my well-being
when I use both of my hands when handling live wires and
devices. I also try to use my head


"DanG" wrote in message
...
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on
the colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is
turned off. Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two
circuits. In a perfect world there should not be power on the
neutrals if everything is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so.
You do not tell if your wiring is new enough to have a ground,
either green or bare. Turn off the breaker, check between
black and white - no power; then use your tester between the
black and the green - no power; use your tester between the
white and the green - no power, you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity
that can allow current through your heart. If you are not
grounded, barefoot, in a puddle of water, or some other
grounding you might feel a tingle, but the current can't go
through you. I am not suggesting this, but some old
electricians might use their finger in a light socket to check
for power.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
(local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test
myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long
as 1) the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't
touching both the neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I
grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like when adding in a
dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not
trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make
sure that in situation where switching off the breaker isn't a
guarentee that power is off for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter
and jam them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit
but do exactly what I would expect it to do - read the
potential difference between the two sockets in AC volts
(assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally
carry voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially
splice them with your teeth if you had to?

DanG wrote:
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Umm, yes, phone lines CAN shock you! Especially if you're talking analog
lines, and: Especially if you use your teethG! The actual shock you'll
feel though comes from ringing voltage, which is 100V ac riding on nominally
48VDC. The full current available if you were right next to the CO could be
up to 110 mA, so it's relatively safe from a life threatening view, but
still plenty enough to make you fall off a ladder or get a bad bruise on
your elbow or whatever.
Stick the normally reg/green wire pair on your tongue and you'll
immediately feel and taste the electrical flow. The surface of your tongue
makes an excellent conductor for the 48V DC nominal battery voltage present
on the wires when the phone is hung up.

Sorry; couldn't let that one pass. Lots of people with lots of bruises can
attest to these facts g, myself included.



Power lines are a bit different.There should not be power on the
colored power wire, usually black, when the breaker is turned off.
Neutrals, the white one, are usually shared by two circuits. In a
perfect world there should not be power on the neutrals if
everything is wired correctly. DO NOT assume so. You do not tell
if your wiring is new enough to have a ground, either green or
bare. Turn off the breaker, check between black and white - no
power; then use your tester between the black and the green - no
power; use your tester between the white and the green - no power,
you're good to go.

It is good practice to never use both hands around electricity
that can allow current through your heart. If you are not
grounded, barefoot, in a puddle of water, or some other grounding
you might feel a tingle, but the current can't go through you. I
am not suggesting this, but some old electricians might use their
finger in a light socket to check for power.

Absolutely accurate; good info! I just felt a need to comment on the phone
wiring.

Pop`



"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test
myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as
1) the breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching
both the neutral AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot
wires and pig-tail them (like when adding in a dimmer) I won't
get shocked so long as I'm not touching the neutral wire AND the
breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not trying to be ultra safe
here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off
for that fixture.

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter
and jam them into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit
but do exactly what I would expect it to do - read the potential
difference between the two sockets in AC volts (assuming your
voltmeter is reading AC volts).

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally
carry voltage sufficient to shock or could you essentially
splice them with your teeth if you had to?

On Feb 10, 2:53 pm, "DanG" wrote:
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

bull.

you'll feel them if you strip them with your teeth, like the OP asked.

although it is only a little tingle, unless someone calls at the exact
moment you have the wires in your mouth. found out the bad way.......

"Tater" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 10, 2:53 pm, "DanG" wrote:
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

bull.

you'll feel them if you strip them with your teeth, like the OP asked.

although it is only a little tingle, unless someone calls at the exact
moment you have the wires in your mouth. found out the bad way.......


Obviously I'm not gonna be stripping phone line with my teeth, there are
better tools for that. But by using that case it is easier to make a point
about what's in a phone line.

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:45:43 -0800, "Eigenvector"
wrote:


"Tater" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Feb 10, 2:53 pm, "DanG" wrote:
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

bull.

you'll feel them if you strip them with your teeth, like the OP asked.

although it is only a little tingle, unless someone calls at the exact
moment you have the wires in your mouth. found out the bad way.......


Obviously I'm not gonna be stripping phone line with my teeth, there are
better tools for that.

Yes. The important thing about teeth is often that you have them with
you.

But by using that case it is easier to make a point
about what's in a phone line.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:45:43 -0800, "Eigenvector"
...snipped...
Yes. The important thing about teeth is often that you have them with
you.


Usually, but I can still work on wiring without them,

--
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org

"DanG" writes:
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Not true. The on-hook (phone just sitting there) voltage is nominally
48 V, which you probably won't feel unless your skin is wet. (Don't try
putting your tongue across the terminals though!).

But the ring voltage is something like 90-100 V, so you will feel that
if you're holding onto the phone conductors when someone tries to call
you.

Dave

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 03:52:43 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

"DanG" writes:
The phone lines are safe. You won't feel any shocks.

Not true. The on-hook (phone just sitting there) voltage is nominally
48 V, which you probably won't feel unless your skin is wet. (Don't try
putting your tongue across the terminals though!).


12V it getting strong for that (using the tongue as a voltage tester).
It works OK with 9V batteries. And that's DC. IIRC I've never tasted
AC, but I hear it's even stronger.

But the ring voltage is something like 90-100 V, so you will feel that
if you're holding onto the phone conductors when someone tries to call
you.

Dave

I have described the feeling of such voltages as "a thousand
hyperactive ants just under the skin".
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral
AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them
(like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not
touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not
trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in
situation where switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is
off for that fixture.

If the breaker is off to a circuit, it's dead: Except if it's an Edison
circuit, one that shares a neutral between two legs of different potential.
In this case you would need to turn off both breakers sharing the neutral,
or else, opening the pigtail of the neutral and getting between the
conductors will hurt you


Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam them
into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly what I
would expect it to do - read the potential difference between the two
sockets in AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

Correct

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth
if you had to?
There is enough voltage to hurt you especially if your hands are sweaty

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral
AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them
(like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not
touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not
trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in
situation where switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is
off for that fixture.

If the breaker is off to a circuit, it's dead: Except if it's an Edison
circuit, one that shares a neutral between two legs of different potential.
In this case you would need to turn off both breakers sharing the neutral,
or else, opening the pigtail of the neutral and getting between the
conductors will hurt you

You don't need to open the pigtail and get between the conductors to get hurt.
Simply touching it may be dangerous: you create a [potential] parallel path
for the neutral current, through your body. Electricity follows all possible
paths, not just the one of least resistance. Creating additional paths with
your flesh isn't a good idea.
[snip]

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth
if you had to?
There is enough voltage to hurt you especially if your hands are sweaty

Let's clarify that, OK?

"Enough voltage to hurt you" meaning "enough to cause pain", yes.
Meaning "enough to cause injury", no.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I agree on both counts, although, opening a live neutral and getting between
the conductors is a guaranty of pain.




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
m...
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral
AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them
(like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not
touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm
not
trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in
situation where switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power
is
off for that fixture.

If the breaker is off to a circuit, it's dead: Except if it's an Edison
circuit, one that shares a neutral between two legs of different
potential.
In this case you would need to turn off both breakers sharing the neutral,
or else, opening the pigtail of the neutral and getting between the
conductors will hurt you

You don't need to open the pigtail and get between the conductors to get
hurt.
Simply touching it may be dangerous: you create a [potential] parallel
path
for the neutral current, through your body. Electricity follows all
possible
paths, not just the one of least resistance. Creating additional paths
with
your flesh isn't a good idea.
[snip]

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry
voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth
if you had to?
There is enough voltage to hurt you especially if your hands are sweaty

Let's clarify that, OK?

"Enough voltage to hurt you" meaning "enough to cause pain", yes.
Meaning "enough to cause injury", no.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

If you get a ring pulse while doing wiring its another matter.

There is a disconnect in modern phone boxes. Just to be on the safe
side, disconnect you line there before you work inside.

On 10 Feb 2007 14:18:12 -0800, "professorpaul"
wrote:

There is a disconnect in modern phone boxes. Just to be on the safe
side, disconnect you line there before you work inside.

In the 50's we had metal boxes and when you pulled up on the cover to
remove it two ceramic/copper tipped fuses could be pulled to
disconnect. My granddad would pull the fuses when he had enough of my
siblings talking on the phone G. If he left the house with a fuse,
my brother would put two forks in place of the fuses, so they could
talk.

It's pointed out (with older phones) to take phone off the hook in
another room, before working. I don't know about modern phones
(digital/wireless).

I have the newer box for the disconnect as you mention. Labeled on the
box - "Customer Access"
..
--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

Al Schmidt wrote:
If you get a ring pulse while doing wiring its another matter.

AHH!! Bingo!!

Tom J
been there, felt that

Re phone lines=---It is very possable for a phone line to have enough
current to get a good shock.
Telephone lines have a standing voltage of 48vdc and super impossed ac
of up to 100 v. for ringing but very low amps. So if you are working on
a phone line and ringing currant comes across that line you would feel
it. It could startle you and make you fall off of a ladder etc. Allways
be careful.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off 2) you aren't touching both the neutral
AND the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them
(like when adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not
touching the neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off. I'm not
trying to be ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in
situation where switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is
off for that fixture.

As long as the breaker is off, you can't get a shock. I always test for
voltage before touching a wire.
The neutral is just a really good ground; neither more dangerous than a
copper water pipe, nor less.
(The exception is when the neutral isn't attached to the breaker box
properly; then it can be dangerous, but that would be very unusual.)

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam them
into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly what I
would expect it to do - read the potential difference between the two
sockets in AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

That's correct. Just be sure you have the meter set correctly, or you might
be surprised.

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth
if you had to?
Phone lines are harmless.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

As long as the breaker is off, you can't get a shock.

Well, close -- as long as the breaker is off, *and* everything is wired
properly... and that's something that you can't necessarily assume. In two of
the three houses I've owned, I've found one pair of circuits that had their
neutrals cross-connected. When somebody does something stupid like that, all
bets are off.

I always test for voltage before touching a wire.

That's good practice. *Excellent* practice is to apply the tester to something
that is *known* to be live first, to make sure that it properly indicates the
presence of voltage.

The neutral is just a really good ground; neither more dangerous than a
copper water pipe, nor less.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

PLEASE stop answering questions like this until you figure out the difference
between neutral and ground. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

The neutral _carries_current_ under normal operation, and you _can_ get a
lethal shock from the neutral conductor of an energized circuit.

(The exception is when the neutral isn't attached to the breaker box
properly; then it can be dangerous, but that would be very unusual.)

Wrong again. I repeat: the neutral is a current-carrying conductor under
normal operation, and touching it can be lethal.

Electricity does *not*, as is commonly and mistakenly believed, follow "the
path of least resistance". Instead, electricity follows *all* *possible*
paths. And that's why the neutral of an energized circuit can be dangerous: by
touching it, you create a possible path for current through your own body.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Toller wrote:
"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..
....

As long as the breaker is off, you can't get a shock. I always test
for voltage before touching a wire.
The neutral is just a really good ground; neither more dangerous than
a copper water pipe, nor less.
(The exception is when the neutral isn't attached to the breaker box
properly; then it can be dangerous, but that would be very unusual.)


Based on the number of open neutral questions we get around here, I
would not say it is very unusual. Unusual maybe, but I would not bet my
life on it, especially if I were working on a application I did not trust.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

In article , "Eigenvector" wrote:
A couple three basic questions that I'm not willing to test myself.

When pigtailing wires together, you won't get shocked so long as 1) the
breaker to that circuit is off

Assuming that the circuit is connected to *only* that breaker, and has no
cross-connections to any other circuit, you can stop there -- killing the
breaker is all you need.

2) you aren't touching both the neutral AND
the hot wire. Meaning, if I grab two hot wires and pig-tail them (like when
adding in a dimmer) I won't get shocked so long as I'm not touching the
neutral wire AND the breaker to that circuit is off.

If the circuit is off, you won't get shocked even if you *do* touch the
neutral. Assuming, again, that everything was installed properly.

I'm not trying to be
ultra safe here so much as I'm trying to make sure that in situation where
switching off the breaker isn't a guarentee that power is off for that
fixture.

The only way that switching the breaker off *isn't* a guarantee that power is
off, is if the circuit has been installed improperly, with a cross-connection
to some other circuit.

Do you have a specific reason to be concerned that the fixture you're
intending to work on won't be de-energized by killing the appropriate breaker?

Second question, if I take the probe leads from my volt meter and jam them
into an outlet, it's not gonna short the circuit but do exactly what I would
expect it to do - read the potential difference between the two sockets in
AC volts (assuming your voltmeter is reading AC volts).

Correct.

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth if
you had to?

They carry enough that they could sting a bit, and I certainly wouldn't splice
them with my teeth -- but there's no danger from working with live phone
wires.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I'll answer only on the telephone thing. I've forever stripped phone wire
with my teeth, BUT, be advised from my understanding, there will be about
90 volts DC if the phone were to ring.

--
Steve Barker


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
. ..

And finally, when splicing phone line, do the wires normally carry voltage
sufficient to shock or could you essentially splice them with your teeth
if you had to?

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:45:04 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

I'll answer only on the telephone thing. I've forever stripped phone wire
with my teeth, BUT, be advised from my understanding, there will be about
90 volts DC if the phone were to ring.

Put the phone wires in your mouth and you can see when someone's
calling :-)

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:52:52 -0600, Harry
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:45:04 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

I'll answer only on the telephone thing. I've forever stripped phone wire
with my teeth, BUT, be advised from my understanding, there will be about
90 volts DC if the phone were to ring.

Put the phone wires in your mouth and you can see when someone's
calling :-)

I'll get right on that GRIN.


--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:52:52 -0600, Harry
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 16:45:04 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

I'll answer only on the telephone thing. I've forever stripped phone wire
with my teeth, BUT, be advised from my understanding, there will be about
90 volts DC if the phone were to ring.

Put the phone wires in your mouth and you can see when someone's
calling :-)

I've had such a thing happen (unintentionally) before. There was a
problem (since fixed) with the cable here. If you disconnect the
cable, you get 30VDC between the shields. This disconnection was at
moth level and the loose end hit me (I really don't remember how BOTH
ends did at the same time).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy