In another thread this issue was brought up.
Is it OK for a customer to buy their own material
(in my case tile), and expect a professional contractor
to install it?

It's a good question, and one I've faced probably a
few hundred times over many years. My opinion is
that customers who purchace materials first, without
consulting a professional do so blindly and many
suffer for years for a bad decision.

The first thought people have about this is that the
customer is "cutting out the contractor" from making
a markup on materials. Generally this is where the
discussion centers on. I think it's the wrong discussion.

As I've mentioned, there are two kinds of customers who
buy their own materials...
(1) the person who does so innocently, just thinking it
is the right thing to do, and:
(2) the person who deliberately is trying to save money
and cut out the markup from the contractor.

Person (2) is often trying to be cheap and probably wants
a cheap price on installation too. I quickly try to get out
of dealing with person (2), and as far as I'm concerned
if they want to go cheap, go ahead. I'm not interested.
Save some money on the tile, save money on the
installation- and get what you pay for.

What about the innocent person though? Is it wise
to buy materials first, then hire a contractor install it?
Adjusting the price is possible with the decent customer who
wants a good installation and is willing to pay for it.
They will agree to pay a little more to the contractor, knowing
now that they innocently cut into his profit. That, though,
the least of the potention problems caused by people buying
their own material.

Some people buy such crappy material that I don't want to be
associated with it. Others will buy the wrong amount but swear
it's more than enough. Some will buy "close out" tile and not
be aware it's 4 different shades, dye lots, bad sizing etc.
Some will bring the material home and stack it wrong (horizontally),
cracking dozens of them. The problem with cracking is that it's
often not noticed until the grouting process when the cracks get
wet and are visible for the first time. I've spent tons of time
weeding through the "junk" to pick out the good tiles.
People buy thinset and grout 4 months before the job so it's
lumpy by tiling time, yet want to "break it up" and still use it.
People buy the wrong type of thinset and insist I use it because
"the guy" at the store said it was the right stuff, and of course
"the guy at the store" is a real expert.
People will buy the tile and expect me to pick it up for them
since I have a truck, and after all.....they're hiring me to do
the work!......so the store makes the profit and I'm supposed
to do the work hauling it?

These are just a sampling of problems that have come up
in my 25 years of tile contracting. By far the easiest and
wisest thing for my customers to do is contact me _first_
and let me help them with what is now state-of-the-art,
what is not already outdated... what is the right tile for them-
what goes with their home and furniture. What tile works
best with children? Old people who may slip? Animals
who track in dirt? Who can help them with this more than
an expert consulting with them in their home?
Issues of color, style, size, type, quality, glaze hardness,
break strength and the issues in this paragraph can't be
"figured out" by the average homeowner.

Most people choosing new tile haven't done it in many years,
sometimes 10, 15 or 20 years. They are surprised at what
is now available for them in 2007. The selections are
greatly multiplied from my early years doing this, but that
just makes it far more important for customers to let me
help them and point them in the right direction.
I know what showrooms and distributorships are honest
and good quality, and where they will be safe shopping
for fair pricing. I know where they should avoid.
When I send them to certain distributor showrooms,
I specifically name the showroom people there who I know
are expert and honest. The customer can benefit from
this experience.

People also greatly appreciate help, encouragement
and persuasion to do the 'right thing' and find that perfect
tile that they'll live with for many years. I'm frank and
honest when they're heading in a wrong direction.
Elderly people need to be persuaded against smooth
slick tile. Outdoor tile needs to be clearly non-slip.
12x12 tile will be immediately outdated. Etc Etc Etc.
Customers need to be straight forwardly told when
they are heading in a wrong direction, and appreciate
the help and guidance. The goal is always at the end
of the job to hear "thank you so-much for your help,
we are so thrilled with the job". Even better is to go
back years later for other work there and hear again
how happy they have been with the tile.

A professional tile contractor's head is full of knowledge
and ideas. It is a shame when people don't access this
opportunity to get some fresh ideas and perspective.

It isn't about "sales". It isn't about "making money". Any
contractor who has this as their goal does a disservice to
their customers. What it's "about" is the customer. They
are paying a lot of money for the work and tile. They have
to live with the result for years as the installer moves on
to other things. The goal is to lead the customer to that
perfect selection that will fit their needs, then perform
an installation that will make their project a success.
Customers have friends and family. They want these people
to come over and say "hey that looks great". They want to
remain satisfied for many years. Contractors and installers
who have this customer-first attitude will have no problem
getting work, or making money, and will be a blessing to
many people.

Should the customer purchace materials before consulting
with the contractor/installer? I don't think so.

thetiler

thetiler wrote:
In another thread this issue was brought up.
Is it OK for a customer to buy their own material
(in my case tile), and expect a professional contractor
to install it?

It's a good question, and one I've faced probably a
few hundred times over many years. My opinion is
that customers who purchace materials first, without
consulting a professional do so blindly and many
suffer for years for a bad decision.

The first thought people have about this is that the
customer is "cutting out the contractor" from making
a markup on materials. Generally this is where the
discussion centers on. I think it's the wrong discussion.

As I've mentioned, there are two kinds of customers who
buy their own materials...
(1) the person who does so innocently, just thinking it
is the right thing to do, and:
(2) the person who deliberately is trying to save money
and cut out the markup from the contractor.

Person (2) is often trying to be cheap and probably wants
a cheap price on installation too. I quickly try to get out
of dealing with person (2), and as far as I'm concerned
if they want to go cheap, go ahead. I'm not interested.
Save some money on the tile, save money on the
installation- and get what you pay for.

What about the innocent person though? Is it wise
to buy materials first, then hire a contractor install it?
Adjusting the price is possible with the decent customer who
wants a good installation and is willing to pay for it.
They will agree to pay a little more to the contractor, knowing
now that they innocently cut into his profit. That, though,
the least of the potention problems caused by people buying
their own material.

Some people buy such crappy material that I don't want to be
associated with it. Others will buy the wrong amount but swear
it's more than enough. Some will buy "close out" tile and not
be aware it's 4 different shades, dye lots, bad sizing etc.
Some will bring the material home and stack it wrong (horizontally),
cracking dozens of them. The problem with cracking is that it's
often not noticed until the grouting process when the cracks get
wet and are visible for the first time. I've spent tons of time
weeding through the "junk" to pick out the good tiles.
People buy thinset and grout 4 months before the job so it's
lumpy by tiling time, yet want to "break it up" and still use it.
People buy the wrong type of thinset and insist I use it because
"the guy" at the store said it was the right stuff, and of course
"the guy at the store" is a real expert.
People will buy the tile and expect me to pick it up for them
since I have a truck, and after all.....they're hiring me to do
the work!......so the store makes the profit and I'm supposed
to do the work hauling it?

These are just a sampling of problems that have come up
in my 25 years of tile contracting. By far the easiest and
wisest thing for my customers to do is contact me _first_
and let me help them with what is now state-of-the-art,
what is not already outdated... what is the right tile for them-
what goes with their home and furniture. What tile works
best with children? Old people who may slip? Animals
who track in dirt? Who can help them with this more than
an expert consulting with them in their home?
Issues of color, style, size, type, quality, glaze hardness,
break strength and the issues in this paragraph can't be
"figured out" by the average homeowner.

Most people choosing new tile haven't done it in many years,
sometimes 10, 15 or 20 years. They are surprised at what
is now available for them in 2007. The selections are
greatly multiplied from my early years doing this, but that
just makes it far more important for customers to let me
help them and point them in the right direction.
I know what showrooms and distributorships are honest
and good quality, and where they will be safe shopping
for fair pricing. I know where they should avoid.
When I send them to certain distributor showrooms,
I specifically name the showroom people there who I know
are expert and honest. The customer can benefit from
this experience.

People also greatly appreciate help, encouragement
and persuasion to do the 'right thing' and find that perfect
tile that they'll live with for many years. I'm frank and
honest when they're heading in a wrong direction.
Elderly people need to be persuaded against smooth
slick tile. Outdoor tile needs to be clearly non-slip.
12x12 tile will be immediately outdated. Etc Etc Etc.
Customers need to be straight forwardly told when
they are heading in a wrong direction, and appreciate
the help and guidance. The goal is always at the end
of the job to hear "thank you so-much for your help,
we are so thrilled with the job". Even better is to go
back years later for other work there and hear again
how happy they have been with the tile.

A professional tile contractor's head is full of knowledge
and ideas. It is a shame when people don't access this
opportunity to get some fresh ideas and perspective.

It isn't about "sales". It isn't about "making money". Any
contractor who has this as their goal does a disservice to
their customers. What it's "about" is the customer. They
are paying a lot of money for the work and tile. They have
to live with the result for years as the installer moves on
to other things. The goal is to lead the customer to that
perfect selection that will fit their needs, then perform
an installation that will make their project a success.
Customers have friends and family. They want these people
to come over and say "hey that looks great". They want to
remain satisfied for many years. Contractors and installers
who have this customer-first attitude will have no problem
getting work, or making money, and will be a blessing to
many people.

Should the customer purchace materials before consulting
with the contractor/installer? I don't think so.

thetiler

thats probably fair enough , but on the other hand ya get contractors
who take a job , quote low to get it , then appear one day a week or
less, when they feel like it , charge 300+ percent markup on stuff
bought and delivered by the local BORG and who leave a big mess behind.
(bits of grout on hallway carpets, bits of cutoff plastic trim down the
toilet etc. )

Not to mention that the quoted price is usually a flight of fantasy and
usually ends up 50 percent or more higher.


The only contractors I will now use are installers from the building
supply places who know that they need to do a good clean proffessional
job , or they dont get more work.

Tiler,

You might avoid this situation if your Yellow Pages add clearly states
that you will not install tile that you do not sell since you can not stand
behind it. Or that you will install but not warranty such work.

Dave M.

This happens to all the trades that do work in the home, and some that do
other work too. It is a matter of stating up front that supply is part of
the service, and the conditions and prices that you work under if the
customer does the supplying.

"thetiler" wrote in message
ups.com...
In another thread this issue was brought up.
Is it OK for a customer to buy their own material
(in my case tile), and expect a professional contractor
to install it?

It's a good question, and one I've faced probably a
few hundred times over many years. My opinion is
that customers who purchace materials first, without
consulting a professional do so blindly and many
suffer for years for a bad decision.

The first thought people have about this is that the
customer is "cutting out the contractor" from making
a markup on materials. Generally this is where the
discussion centers on. I think it's the wrong discussion.

As I've mentioned, there are two kinds of customers who
buy their own materials...
(1) the person who does so innocently, just thinking it
is the right thing to do, and:
(2) the person who deliberately is trying to save money
and cut out the markup from the contractor.

Person (2) is often trying to be cheap and probably wants
a cheap price on installation too. I quickly try to get out
of dealing with person (2), and as far as I'm concerned
if they want to go cheap, go ahead. I'm not interested.
Save some money on the tile, save money on the
installation- and get what you pay for.

What about the innocent person though? Is it wise
to buy materials first, then hire a contractor install it?
Adjusting the price is possible with the decent customer who
wants a good installation and is willing to pay for it.
They will agree to pay a little more to the contractor, knowing
now that they innocently cut into his profit. That, though,
the least of the potention problems caused by people buying
their own material.

Some people buy such crappy material that I don't want to be
associated with it. Others will buy the wrong amount but swear
it's more than enough. Some will buy "close out" tile and not
be aware it's 4 different shades, dye lots, bad sizing etc.
Some will bring the material home and stack it wrong (horizontally),
cracking dozens of them. The problem with cracking is that it's
often not noticed until the grouting process when the cracks get
wet and are visible for the first time. I've spent tons of time
weeding through the "junk" to pick out the good tiles.
People buy thinset and grout 4 months before the job so it's
lumpy by tiling time, yet want to "break it up" and still use it.
People buy the wrong type of thinset and insist I use it because
"the guy" at the store said it was the right stuff, and of course
"the guy at the store" is a real expert.
People will buy the tile and expect me to pick it up for them
since I have a truck, and after all.....they're hiring me to do
the work!......so the store makes the profit and I'm supposed
to do the work hauling it?

These are just a sampling of problems that have come up
in my 25 years of tile contracting. By far the easiest and
wisest thing for my customers to do is contact me _first_
and let me help them with what is now state-of-the-art,
what is not already outdated... what is the right tile for them-
what goes with their home and furniture. What tile works
best with children? Old people who may slip? Animals
who track in dirt? Who can help them with this more than
an expert consulting with them in their home?
Issues of color, style, size, type, quality, glaze hardness,
break strength and the issues in this paragraph can't be
"figured out" by the average homeowner.

Most people choosing new tile haven't done it in many years,
sometimes 10, 15 or 20 years. They are surprised at what
is now available for them in 2007. The selections are
greatly multiplied from my early years doing this, but that
just makes it far more important for customers to let me
help them and point them in the right direction.
I know what showrooms and distributorships are honest
and good quality, and where they will be safe shopping
for fair pricing. I know where they should avoid.
When I send them to certain distributor showrooms,
I specifically name the showroom people there who I know
are expert and honest. The customer can benefit from
this experience.

People also greatly appreciate help, encouragement
and persuasion to do the 'right thing' and find that perfect
tile that they'll live with for many years. I'm frank and
honest when they're heading in a wrong direction.
Elderly people need to be persuaded against smooth
slick tile. Outdoor tile needs to be clearly non-slip.
12x12 tile will be immediately outdated. Etc Etc Etc.
Customers need to be straight forwardly told when
they are heading in a wrong direction, and appreciate
the help and guidance. The goal is always at the end
of the job to hear "thank you so-much for your help,
we are so thrilled with the job". Even better is to go
back years later for other work there and hear again
how happy they have been with the tile.

A professional tile contractor's head is full of knowledge
and ideas. It is a shame when people don't access this
opportunity to get some fresh ideas and perspective.

It isn't about "sales". It isn't about "making money". Any
contractor who has this as their goal does a disservice to
their customers. What it's "about" is the customer. They
are paying a lot of money for the work and tile. They have
to live with the result for years as the installer moves on
to other things. The goal is to lead the customer to that
perfect selection that will fit their needs, then perform
an installation that will make their project a success.
Customers have friends and family. They want these people
to come over and say "hey that looks great". They want to
remain satisfied for many years. Contractors and installers
who have this customer-first attitude will have no problem
getting work, or making money, and will be a blessing to
many people.

Should the customer purchace materials before consulting
with the contractor/installer? I don't think so.

thetiler

"thetiler" wrote in message
(2) the person who deliberately is trying to save money
and cut out the markup from the contractor.

Person (2) is often trying to be cheap and probably wants
a cheap price on installation too.

Good advice. I'd bet there are many more #2's than the #1's. They make for
a no-win situation.

In my custom woodworking business, I let folks (who want to) come to the
lumberyard with me to select the stock to be used for their project. I
charge a flat rate for the time spent getting the lumber (same as my normal
labour rate), and let the customer pay the bill at the yard (They get my
contractors discount).

This lets the customer be involved in stock selection, but also lets me be
there to point out things that they may have missed because they don't look
at wood every day.
Some things that I've found:
1) many customers are amazed that you have to buy more wood than you are
actually going to use - the concept of waste is often something they haven't
dealt with before.
2) every customer I've ever dealt with this way is *amazed* at the cost of
cabinet grade lumber.
3) after picking through a pile of stock, most customers start to realize
that there is a lot more to selecting quality lumber than just getting
pieces that are the right size. Those little knotholes, color variations,
grain irregularities, surface dings and checks that they don't see (or
assume can just be "sanded out") help them realize that part of what they
are paying for is the fact that I can look at a few $100+ pieces of wood,
and see which ones will work, and which ones won't.
4) when the customer watches me piece together what parts will come from
which board (and write it down in my shop log), they start to realize that I
can (usually) get a lot more out of a board than they can. They also realize
that there are a *lot* of little pieces in furniture that they never thought
of.....

Over all, I usually encourage a customer to participate in this phase of a
job. By keeping them involved, they start to realize that they really are
getting a lot for what they are paying. This is also a great place to realy
fine tune what the customer wants. When they see a bin full of curly maple
next to a bin full of birdseye, (next to walnut, cherry, mahogany, etc) its
really easy to tell who has realy made their mind up about what they
want.... I've had more than one customer decide to postpone a project while
they reconsider what type of wood to use....

its worth noting that the work I do is high end custom furtniture. This
wouldn't work for many home renovation type contractors.....

--JD

I'm really wondering why any contractor should make money on the
supplies they use to do a job. If you charge a proper hourly amount
(or fixed amount by job - whatever), IMO, you should not need to charge
any markup on supplies.

I am happy to pay a contractor for their work (including time it may
take to obtain/determine necessary supplies). I'm not willing to pay
him/her for someone else's work (the supplies themselves). This is
part of the reason I've started to do most repair/remodel work myself.
Finding an honest and reliable contractor these days is difficult at
best.

Doug

thetiler wrote:
In another thread this issue was brought up.
Is it OK for a customer to buy their own material
(in my case tile), and expect a professional contractor
to install it?
Should the customer purchace materials before consulting
with the contractor/installer? I don't think so.

thetiler

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm really wondering why any contractor should make money on the
supplies they use to do a job. If you charge a proper hourly amount
(or fixed amount by job - whatever), IMO, you should not need to charge
any markup on supplies.

Put yourself in the contractor's position. You buy the material. You put
your money out, you spend the time to order it, receive it, store it, load
up the truck, haul it to the job site, unload the truck, he waits for you to
pay, meantime, he has sent off a check to his supplier, filled out any tax
forms needed, etc.

Should he charge you the same rate as the guy that supplied all the
material? What would YOU do?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm really wondering why any contractor should make money on the
supplies they use to do a job. If you charge a proper hourly amount
(or fixed amount by job - whatever), IMO, you should not need to charge
any markup on supplies.

Put yourself in the contractor's position. You buy the material. You put
your money out, you spend the time to order it, receive it, store it, load
up the truck, haul it to the job site, unload the truck, he waits for you to
pay, meantime, he has sent off a check to his supplier, filled out any tax
forms needed, etc.

Should he charge you the same rate as the guy that supplied all the
material? What would YOU do?

In the end the thing one should be concerned about is the total cost of
the job, not exactly how the money is split up. I agree that just
about all contractors are going to mark up the price of materials they
supply to cover their costs. Most are also going to add on some more
margin. And any that don't are very likely going to make up the
difference in profit with higher labor charges, or somewhere else.

Charlie Morgan wrote:
On 16 Jan 2007 10:30:26 -0800, wrote:

I'm really wondering why any contractor should make money on the
supplies they use to do a job. If you charge a proper hourly amount
(or fixed amount by job - whatever), IMO, you should not need to charge
any markup on supplies.

I am happy to pay a contractor for their work (including time it may
take to obtain/determine necessary supplies). I'm not willing to pay
him/her for someone else's work (the supplies themselves). This is
part of the reason I've started to do most repair/remodel work myself.
Finding an honest and reliable contractor these days is difficult at
best.

Doug


Okay, try this: Go to your favorite restaurant. When the waiter comes
to take your order, hand him a bag containing some eggs, bread, toast,
juice, and butter. Ask him to make your breakfast.

CWM

Right, fair comparison there. Restaurants sell a product for a price,
no arguments. They won't come back to me and say "well, as it turns
out the eggs cost us an extra 15% today so we're going to tack 15% onto
our price for your meal". Or "sorry, but it took us 50% longer than we
thought it would to cook your breakfast. We're going to have to raise
your price by 50%"

Doug

"Charlie Morgan" wrote in message
...
On 16 Jan 2007 10:30:26 -0800, wrote:

I'm really wondering why any contractor should make money on the
supplies they use to do a job. If you charge a proper hourly amount
(or fixed amount by job - whatever), IMO, you should not need to charge
any markup on supplies.

I am happy to pay a contractor for their work (including time it may
take to obtain/determine necessary supplies). I'm not willing to pay
him/her for someone else's work (the supplies themselves). This is
part of the reason I've started to do most repair/remodel work myself.
Finding an honest and reliable contractor these days is difficult at
best.

Doug


Okay, try this: Go to your favorite restaurant. When the waiter comes
to take your order, hand him a bag containing some eggs, bread, toast,
juice, and butter. Ask him to make your breakfast.

CWM

Actually, I have done just that -- some of my favorite restaurants are at
Lei Yue Mun, a fishing village on the edge of Hong Kong. You reserve a
table at your choice of several restaurants, then go to the fish markets
nearby and select the individual fish, lobster, etc., that you want for
dinner. You pay the shopkeeper for the seafood and tell him which
restaurant you'll be using. The seafood is sent to the restaurant, and you
go back to your table, have a beer or mao tai, and in a few minutes your
personally selected absolutely fresh seafood dinner is delivered to your
table. When you go with a bunch of friends it makes for a great evening.

I've also eaten at restaurants in Ottawa and around Ontario where you
brought in your fresh fish and they then prepared it for your dinner.

Similarly, I don't see anything wrong with a customer specifying the
specific type of materials that he wants used for a job, even if it means
the customer has to buy the material first. The customer may have a
specific concept for the space and have seen something special that the
tradesman is either unfamiliar with or doesn't have access to. For example,
we found some antique carved teakwood walls, 3 pieces, each 8' wide x 9'
tall, that became part of the side walls of our bedroom. Similarly, in a
junkyard (excuse me, second-hand shop) we found a pallet of high-quality
cobalt-blue ceramic roof tiles that became the top course of a wall around
part of our house. No local roofer would have found that material. OTOH,
for conventional supplies I'll rely on the contractor or subcontractor, but
I'll also know if there's something special that I want to add to
individualize my property. Regards --

I would ask the installer for the correct quantity/quality before
purchaseing. Why should I be stuck selecting the limited choices from
what the installer's brother in law sells? If I talk to a
professionaland he say "12x12 will be fine and gives me a quantity,
why shouldnt I go to several tile places HD lowes etc and find one I
really like and buy it. I am not one to buy the cheapest nor the most
costly as one gets screwed either way. Then I get what I want at a
good price and just pay for labor. I had a front door put in. I had
my guy come out measure and let me know exactly what size door was
needed. Wife and I went to HD picked a nice one out and brought it
home. What do you really think the installer would do but jack up the
price of the same door he bought at HD? He came installed it I gladly
paid himfor his labor. I plan on doing the same thing with the same
installer for a back door. Expert can give me specifics and I'm smart
enough to get the right thing.



wrote:
In another thread this issue was brought up.
Is it OK for a customer to buy their own material
(in my case tile), and expect a professional contractor
to install it?

It's a good question, and one I've faced probably a
few hundred times over many years. My opinion is
that customers who purchace materials first, without
consulting a professional do so blindly and many
suffer for years for a bad decision.

The first thought people have about this is that the
customer is "cutting out the contractor" from making
a markup on materials. Generally this is where the
discussion centers on. I think it's the wrong discussion.

As I've mentioned, there are two kinds of customers who
buy their own materials...
(1) the person who does so innocently, just thinking it
is the right thing to do, and:
(2) the person who deliberately is trying to save money
and cut out the markup from the contractor.

Person (2) is often trying to be cheap and probably wants
a cheap price on installation too. I quickly try to get out
of dealing with person (2), and as far as I'm concerned
if they want to go cheap, go ahead. I'm not interested.
Save some money on the tile, save money on the
installation- and get what you pay for.

What about the innocent person though? Is it wise
to buy materials first, then hire a contractor install it?
Adjusting the price is possible with the decent customer who
wants a good installation and is willing to pay for it.
They will agree to pay a little more to the contractor, knowing
now that they innocently cut into his profit. That, though,
the least of the potention problems caused by people buying
their own material.

Some people buy such crappy material that I don't want to be
associated with it. Others will buy the wrong amount but swear
it's more than enough. Some will buy "close out" tile and not
be aware it's 4 different shades, dye lots, bad sizing etc.
Some will bring the material home and stack it wrong (horizontally),
cracking dozens of them. The problem with cracking is that it's
often not noticed until the grouting process when the cracks get
wet and are visible for the first time. I've spent tons of time
weeding through the "junk" to pick out the good tiles.
People buy thinset and grout 4 months before the job so it's
lumpy by tiling time, yet want to "break it up" and still use it.
People buy the wrong type of thinset and insist I use it because
"the guy" at the store said it was the right stuff, and of course
"the guy at the store" is a real expert.
People will buy the tile and expect me to pick it up for them
since I have a truck, and after all.....they're hiring me to do
the work!......so the store makes the profit and I'm supposed
to do the work hauling it?

These are just a sampling of problems that have come up
in my 25 years of tile contracting. By far the easiest and
wisest thing for my customers to do is contact me _first_
and let me help them with what is now state-of-the-art,
what is not already outdated... what is the right tile for them-
what goes with their home and furniture. What tile works
best with children? Old people who may slip? Animals
who track in dirt? Who can help them with this more than
an expert consulting with them in their home?
Issues of color, style, size, type, quality, glaze hardness,
break strength and the issues in this paragraph can't be
"figured out" by the average homeowner.

Most people choosing new tile haven't done it in many years,
sometimes 10, 15 or 20 years. They are surprised at what
is now available for them in 2007. The selections are
greatly multiplied from my early years doing this, but that
just makes it far more important for customers to let me
help them and point them in the right direction.
I know what showrooms and distributorships are honest
and good quality, and where they will be safe shopping
for fair pricing. I know where they should avoid.
When I send them to certain distributor showrooms,
I specifically name the showroom people there who I know
are expert and honest. The customer can benefit from
this experience.

People also greatly appreciate help, encouragement
and persuasion to do the 'right thing' and find that perfect
tile that they'll live with for many years. I'm frank and
honest when they're heading in a wrong direction.
Elderly people need to be persuaded against smooth
slick tile. Outdoor tile needs to be clearly non-slip.
12x12 tile will be immediately outdated. Etc Etc Etc.
Customers need to be straight forwardly told when
they are heading in a wrong direction, and appreciate
the help and guidance. The goal is always at the end
of the job to hear "thank you so-much for your help,
we are so thrilled with the job". Even better is to go
back years later for other work there and hear again
how happy they have been with the tile.

A professional tile contractor's head is full of knowledge
and ideas. It is a shame when people don't access this
opportunity to get some fresh ideas and perspective.

It isn't about "sales". It isn't about "making money". Any
contractor who has this as their goal does a disservice to
their customers. What it's "about" is the customer. They
are paying a lot of money for the work and tile. They have
to live with the result for years as the installer moves on
to other things. The goal is to lead the customer to that
perfect selection that will fit their needs, then perform
an installation that will make their project a success.
Customers have friends and family. They want these people
to come over and say "hey that looks great". They want to
remain satisfied for many years. Contractors and installers
who have this customer-first attitude will have no problem
getting work, or making money, and will be a blessing to
many people.

Should the customer purchace materials before consulting
with the contractor/installer? I don't think so.

thetiler

I tend to explain to customers that the materials they bought
might not fit. And that part of what they are getting from me is
wisdom. So, it's cheaper in the long run for me to come out, spec
the job, supply the parts.

If they really want to get cheap, two can play. I can get to the
house, find out that what have won't work. So, I bill for a house
call, and come back when they got the right parts. Of course,
that's two billable house calls. Plus $50 an hour for advice and
counsell.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"David Martel" wrote in message
link.net...
Tiler,

You might avoid this situation if your Yellow Pages add
clearly states
that you will not install tile that you do not sell since you
can not stand
behind it. Or that you will install but not warranty such work.

Dave M.

wrote:
I'm really wondering why any contractor should make money on the
supplies they use to do a job.

It's called responsibility. If there are any problems or even
future problems with the materials, I'll be held liable.
To not make some money for that risk would be foolish.

If you charge a proper hourly amount
(or fixed amount by job - whatever), IMO, you should not need to charge
any markup on supplies.

"Markup" or whatever you call it, is simply payment
for dealing with and handling/hauling/guaranteeing the
materials.

I am happy to pay a contractor for their work (including time it may
take to obtain/determine necessary supplies). I'm not willing to pay
him/her for someone else's work (the supplies themselves).

Are you willing to pay for material failures? Materials
can fail. It is rare but does happen. More common is
materials that come damaged, or mis-matched shades
and dye lots. All this causes a hassle, and the contractor
sure can't look at the customer and say "sorry, it's your
problem". You're paying a "markup" on the material so
the contractor is responsible for it all.

This is
part of the reason I've started to do most repair/remodel work myself.
Finding an honest and reliable contractor these days is difficult at
best.

I do most personal repair/remodel work myself too because
I'm able to, but most of my customers are not able or
willing to do tilework.
It's true there are a lot of bad contractors. People must
really do their homework and check out potential contractors.

thetiler

wrote:

needed. Wife and I went to HD picked a nice one out and brought it
home. What do you really think the installer would do but jack up the
price of the same door he bought at HD? He came installed it I gladly
paid himfor his labor.

If the door was damaged, in the installation, who pays?
If he calls you over and says "hey the window glass is
cracked" you'll claim he cracked it trying to install it.
All kinds of problems can arise, and I'll tell you from
experience, when a customer thinks they're going to
lose money, suddenly they're quick to throw out blame.

I don't know how your "door installer" pays taxes, insurance
licensing fees, corporation fees, accountant fees, etc
etc just charging for an installation.
It is fair and common to mark up materials at least 30%
to cover the cost of above items.

The "labor" part is simply like a "wage" to an employee.
An ordinary employee gets his "wage", but doesn't have
all the other multitude of expenses.

Plus the contractor has a lot of running around, consulting,
estimating, running his business etc time involved that he
isn't getting paid for.

thetiler

Of course if HE damaged the door I would expect him to pay. If he said
door is damged prior to start I'd take it back to HD. Not a big issue.
Why should I pay 30% more for materials anyway? I'm paying for
skilled labor that I cant/wont do.

thetiler wrote:
wrote:

needed. Wife and I went to HD picked a nice one out and brought it
home. What do you really think the installer would do but jack up the
price of the same door he bought at HD? He came installed it I gladly
paid himfor his labor.

If the door was damaged, in the installation, who pays?
If he calls you over and says "hey the window glass is
cracked" you'll claim he cracked it trying to install it.
All kinds of problems can arise, and I'll tell you from
experience, when a customer thinks they're going to
lose money, suddenly they're quick to throw out blame.

I don't know how your "door installer" pays taxes, insurance
licensing fees, corporation fees, accountant fees, etc
etc just charging for an installation.
It is fair and common to mark up materials at least 30%
to cover the cost of above items.

The "labor" part is simply like a "wage" to an employee.
An ordinary employee gets his "wage", but doesn't have
all the other multitude of expenses.

Plus the contractor has a lot of running around, consulting,
estimating, running his business etc time involved that he
isn't getting paid for.

thetiler

clipped

A professional tile contractor's head is full of knowledge
and ideas. It is a shame when people don't access this
opportunity to get some fresh ideas and perspective.

It isn't about "sales". It isn't about "making money". Any
contractor who has this as their goal does a disservice to
their customers. What it's "about" is the customer. They
are paying a lot of money for the work and tile. They have
to live with the result for years as the installer moves on
to other things. The goal is to lead the customer to that
perfect selection that will fit their needs, then perform
an installation that will make their project a success.
Customers have friends and family. They want these people
to come over and say "hey that looks great". They want to
remain satisfied for many years. Contractors and installers
who have this customer-first attitude will have no problem
getting work, or making money, and will be a blessing to
many people.

Should the customer purchace materials before consulting
with the contractor/installer? I don't think so.

thetiler


All the points you make are important. Most of my experience with
contractors has been over the past 10 years, both privately and in
regard to projects our condo association undertook. I believe the most
common reasons for problems boil down to two: customers who do not
research projects/products in advance so they understand what is at
stake, and customers who focus only on lowest cost. Cheap does not
equal economical. A customer can't begin to communicate effectively
with a contractor until the customer knows the important issues.
Neither a customer nor a contractor will know "everything", regardless
of experience.

For a DIYer, a tile job can be a huge mistake, done wrong. Ripping down
bad drywall would be easier and much less costly than tearing up a
failed tile job.

If I buy a car, I don't buy what the salesman thinks is best for me,
although he knows the product better than I. I don't buy any big-ticket
item, sight unseen. I don't believe I would order a shipment of any
product from a distant source if it cannot be returned with relative
ease, especially if breakage or defects are likely AND the product is
available locally. I will pay a bit for peace of mind.

We had a really bad re-roof job done on our condo, before I lived here.
Partly bad installation, partly very poor choice of product. Nobody
here did their homework, either before or after. They bought the
cheapest job they could find and have paid dearly.

Hubby and I interviewed contractors when our condo assn. was ready to
paint the building. A couple of owners - the very least talented - had
already volunteered to do it themselves. Arghhh..... The contractor we
ultimately hired was "no nonsense". His VP and assistant reminded me of
Erin Bracovich ) I had a gut feeling, after about two minutes, that
he was "the one". When he came in with the low bid, it got really
scary. He got hired, did a fantastic job, was great to deal with. He
accepted a bid with less than his ideal rec's for the job, but I think
he would have turned it down if he thought it would turn out bad.
Customers who let contractors/sellers do their thinking for them will
get the shaft. An intelligent plan and a good product make for a good
deal, regardless of who sells what.

wrote:
This is one of the recurring threads -- a couple of times a year --
with consumers arguing they have the right to save by providing the
materials and paying the contractor only an agreed upon hourly or job
rate for labour.

When they order a pizza, do they supply the ingredients and allow the
pizzeria labour costs only?

I'm a contractor. Occasionally, prospective customers tell me they
want to supply their own materials. I just say "no".

Installing a tub, for example, costs me maybe 300 dollars for the
tub, materials and controls and 150 for the plumber, a total of 450
dollars. I mark it up 25%, say 125 dollars. So the cost to the
consumer is 575 dollars.

IIf the tub arrives and it is scratched, it is replaced and the cost
remains 575 dollars. If the tub arrives and it is the wrong tub, it
is replaced and the cost remains 575 dollars. Until the job is
complete, the risk is entirely mine. If a material or installation
problem shows up three weeks after the job is complete, and the tiles
have to be removed and the tub replaced, the cost remains 575 dollars.

Takes too long to explain it. Easier just to say no thanks to the
job.

Does the consumer have a right to insist on supplying materials.
Sure. His house, his money, his right.

Does he have a right to insist that I use his materials? Nope.
My company, my reputation, my risk.



Ken

Great post. You've said it so much better than I tried.

It's an issue that probably can't be resolved- contractors
understand their risk and reputation, homeowners (some)
are thinking with tunnel vision solely about money and cost.

Like I tell people when I'm bidding a job and they say the
other guy is much cheaper- I don't try to explain myself,
I just tell them that if he's a reputable contractor like me
but his bid is much lower, they'd be smart to hire him.

thetiler

"thetiler" wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Great post. You've said it so much better than I tried.
|
| they'd be smart to hire him.
|


finally you admit your incompetence
the 1st step to recovery it admitting you have a problem.
only 11 more steps to go.

get off your knees and ...............wipe that chin.

the Home Depot Countertop installer sagacious dolt wrote:
finally you admit your incompetence
the 1st step to recovery it admitting you have a problem.
only 11 more steps to go.

What a childish little man. How did you figure out how to post
on a newgroup?

"thetiler" wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| the Home Depot Countertop installer sagacious dolt wrote:
| finally you admit your incompetence
| the 1st step to recovery it admitting you have a problem.
| only 11 more steps to go.
|
| What a childish little man.

6ft 3in is far from little..............son


How did you figure out how to post
| on a newgroup?
|
POSTING IS THE EASY PART
just like ****ing off morons like you.
get a real job and stop pretending to be a tiler
or let me illiterate for you
stop pretending to be "thetiler"

the sagacious dolt wrote:
get a real job and stop pretending to be a tiler
or let me illiterate for you
stop pretending to be "thetiler"

You've failed to give an ounce of evidence
as to why I'm not a tiler. If you doubt anything
I post, feel free to counterpost and let's debate
the advice I give.

Actually you can't because I am an expert,
and you're a wee little phoney poster.

thetiler

Spoken like a true professional.
Keep up the good work Mr. Tiler