On Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:00:26 -0500, "Ned Flanders"
wrote:

:1 inch can give a **** load more than 9gpm.
:3/4 is fine for most on city water with high pressure.
:i use 1" on well systems all the way to pressure tank.
:if you are gonna dig a ditch why not use 1" if price
:is soo close. if you ever want iragation or something
:you will be set.
They wanted $600+ more to install 1" than 3/4"! Read the following:

They did the job today. I tried to get ahold of the supervisor before
they did any installation, but he didn't return my call. I had an
explicit understanding with him that they were to install 3/4" L both
underground and under the house. I talked with the foreman of the crew
and he wasn't aware of that, but I told him I had a clear understanding
with the supervisor. I also asked him about a bonding jumper at the
meter and he seemed to whiff on that one - didn't know what it was or
something. He talked about water heater! The supervisor didn't call me
back and after a while I go under the house and see that they installed
3/4" M under the house, counter to my agreement. I tell the foreman and
he says he's aware that he has to "rip it out." Why this has happened is
beyond me.

I hear him talking to the supervisor on his cell phone and ask to talk
to him. This is the same guy who the office was to have call me earlier.
I try to ask him how much more it will cost to install 1" than 3/4",
both would be L thickness. At this point, they were going to have to rip
out the hard copper under the house and hadn't installed any soft copper
outside, so there was no reason they couldn't do 1" instead. The
supervisor said it would be over $600 extra! I asked him why and he said
the materials cost that much more. I said screw that, basically. I call
the office again (I'm not privy to the supervisor's cell number), and he
calls me right back and affirms that 1" costs that much more for
materials and I say I don't want that and they finish the installation
this evening in the dark.

I'd asked the supervisor on the phone about the noise issue. I told him
that I wasn't so concerned with pressure (the pressure is high here),
but more with the noise from the copper pipes. He said the noise would
be less than the former galvanized water main. That was 1/2", quite
corroded and ran in a trench outside the house, not under it like the
new one. I find his statement hard to believe, but I wasn't going to
argue with him. $600 more for 1" is out of the question.

I have an idea that they never installed the bonding jumper, which I'm
going to try to check out tomorrow when it's light. I don't know what it
would look like. Would that be a strap between the copper pipe coming
into the meter and the pipe leaving it and going to the house?

Dan

:"Pat" wrote in message
...
: I would think that 1" could supply a lot more than 9 gallons/minute.
:
: Yes it will. However the velocity increases and noise increases with
: velocity.
: I used to live in a house where you could hear the water flowing clear
: thru the house.
: The house I have now is silent. I would re pipe the house too.
: The plumber may pay more for pipe. He needs high service.
:
:

just install the bonding jumper yourself, a foot or two of bare copper
wire, 10 gauge, and 2 clamps. the new copper line will be nice and
clean, so that makes it easier.

10 minutes tops and 5 bucks, not worth a hassle.........

contractor a bozo, for not following directions.

check yoursellf and compare copper line price differences sounds like
they were trying to discourage you from going larger........

On 8 Jan 2007 20:42:34 -0800, " wrote:

:just install the bonding jumper yourself, a foot or two of bare copper
:wire, 10 gauge, and 2 clamps. the new copper line will be nice and
:clean, so that makes it easier.

Yes, I could do it. The clamps should be special electrical ones, I
guess. Where would I get them? A plumbing supply outfit?
:
:10 minutes tops and 5 bucks, not worth a hassle.........

But, you know, they are coming back out to finish my sewer laterals job
- they haven't done the concrete work, so I think I should ask them to
just follow up and install the jumper.
:
:contractor a bozo, for not following directions.

Very much so. Anyway, although they aren't the sharpest I basically like
the people and they've treated me well all in all. I learned one thing
dealing with them, howeve: Never listen to the workers if and when they
try to hustle you for side work. If you get the scent and start
considering them for different jobs and you don't use them they will
bear you a grudge, at least for a while. Just firmly say you aren't
interested if they do that.
:
:check yoursellf and compare copper line price differences sounds like
:they were trying to discourage you from going larger........

I had done some price checking on copper prices for the various sizes of
pipe and find the $600 price hike for going from 3/4" to 1" jaw dropping
and hard to believe.

Indeed, they tried to discourage me from thinking of doing it in 1" from
the beginning. The owner of the company came out and made the estimate
on the water main replacement. He told me I'd see absolutely no benefit
and that I should stick with 3/4". So did the other licensed bidder. So,
I find it odd that basically EVERYONE in the newsgroups would tell me I
should do 1". I'm still trying to understand it. Anyway, it's done as of
sundown yesterday and 3/4" it is!

Dan

sorry for your experience.
put in the copper wire yourself...those guys could mess it up,
especially since you said they didn't know what it was in the first
place.

How much did it cost for the 3/4" if you don't mind me asking? My
plumber quoted $2,000...but he's usually high. (no, really, he's a
hippy.)

Jason
Valley Center, KS

clamps are a hardware store home depot item. cheap and just attach to
pipe in a instant, they clambshell.

i wouldnt trust the current crew, and for a few bucks its not worth the
hassle.......

Indeed, they tried to discourage me from thinking of doing it in 1" from
the beginning. The owner of the company came out and made the estimate
on the water main replacement. He told me I'd see absolutely no benefit
and that I should stick with 3/4". So did the other licensed bidder. So,
I find it odd that basically EVERYONE in the newsgroups would tell me I
should do 1". I'm still trying to understand it. Anyway, it's done as of
sundown yesterday and 3/4" it is!

Dan

It is kind of like the 200 amp breaker panel or using 12 ga wire where
14 ga would do. I just sleep better knowing overkill is awake. Usually
the cost difference is small, and the cost of doing it over large,
should it need to be larger in the future.

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:24:23 GMT, Dan_Musicant
wrote:

On 8 Jan 2007 20:42:34 -0800, " wrote:

:just install the bonding jumper yourself, a foot or two of bare copper
:wire, 10 gauge, and 2 clamps. the new copper line will be nice and
:clean, so that makes it easier.

Yes, I could do it. The clamps should be special electrical ones, I
guess. Where would I get them? A plumbing supply outfit?
:
:10 minutes tops and 5 bucks, not worth a hassle.........

But, you know, they are coming back out to finish my sewer laterals job
- they haven't done the concrete work, so I think I should ask them to
just follow up and install the jumper.
:
:contractor a bozo, for not following directions.

Very much so. Anyway, although they aren't the sharpest I basically like
the people and they've treated me well all in all. I learned one thing
dealing with them, howeve: Never listen to the workers if and when they
try to hustle you for side work. If you get the scent and start
considering them for different jobs and you don't use them they will
bear you a grudge, at least for a while. Just firmly say you aren't
interested if they do that.
:
:check yoursellf and compare copper line price differences sounds like
:they were trying to discourage you from going larger........

I had done some price checking on copper prices for the various sizes of
pipe and find the $600 price hike for going from 3/4" to 1" jaw dropping
and hard to believe.

Indeed, they tried to discourage me from thinking of doing it in 1" from
the beginning. The owner of the company came out and made the estimate
on the water main replacement. He told me I'd see absolutely no benefit
and that I should stick with 3/4". So did the other licensed bidder. So,
I find it odd that basically EVERYONE in the newsgroups would tell me I
should do 1". I'm still trying to understand it. Anyway, it's done as of
sundown yesterday and 3/4" it is!


I didn't get that either. We have 3/4 and it has been fine. As I
recall, other parts of your service were already 3/4, so there would
have been no benefit from going with 1-incyh. Maybe if you wanted to
put in a sprinkler system or something, but otherwise why bother.

On 10 Jan 2007 06:41:43 -0800, "
wrote:

:sorry for your experience.
ut in the copper wire yourself...those guys could mess it up,
:especially since you said they didn't know what it was in the first
lace.
:
:How much did it cost for the 3/4" if you don't mind me asking? My
lumber quoted $2,000...but he's usually high. (no, really, he's a
:hippy.)
:
:Jason
:Valley Center, KS

The owner of the company came out to bid the water main replacement. I
didn't know he was the owner at the time. It was almost 2 weeks ago. He
looked over the situation and quickly made his assessment -- run copper
here from the meter, go under the sidewalk, trench the lawn up to the
house and go in a vent at the front, all 3/4", L in the trench, M under
the house. Once under the house, straight back to where the old main
accessed the house plumbing, which was at the back left under the
kitchen. He first mentioned $2500 and that the lowest they could go was
$2300. A couple of minutes later I asked him if $2300 was OK, and he'd
forgotten he'd mentioned that figure and said "you drive a hard
bargain." I didn't bother saying that HE was the one who came up with
that number. I signed the estimate, but a day later cancelled because I
had an issue and also wanted to get more bids. I figure it's 25-30 feet
of soft copper and about 35' of hard copper.

I got a bid for $2200 from another plumber, said to be good and in
general 30% less than the other guys. But he appeared to not have
insurance, and I being uninsured for anything but fire (basically), I
decided I better go with the $2300 bid with the "current" company (i.e.
the one doing my sewers). They agreed to do 3/4" L under the house,
install 2 hose bibbs instead of 1, and put a bonding jumper at the
meter.

Dan

On 10 Jan 2007 06:54:26 -0800, "
wrote:

:clamps are a hardware store home depot item. cheap and just attach to
ipe in a instant, they clambshell.
:
:i wouldnt trust the current crew, and for a few bucks its not worth the
:hassle.......

The same foreman came out today and since he was doing the concrete work
for the sewer job I asked him about the absence of that jumper. He said
he was talking with his supervisor and they would deal with it later
today. He seemed to be saying they don't have the hardware. I won't
sweat it even if they don't do it. I see some jumpers under the house (I
inspected the water main job under the house yesterday), and wires go
off to God knows where. I figure that to use the copper water main as a
ground I'm going to have to install my own clamps anyway. I have at
least 3 places in the house where I want a ground to an outlet:

1. Refrigerator
2. Laundry room appliances
3. My computer room

I think I have a lot of 12 guage wire. Should I really run 10 guage
instead for the grounds?

Thanks!

Dan

On 10 Jan 2007 07:03:40 -0800, "Eric in North TX"
wrote:

: Indeed, they tried to discourage me from thinking of doing it in 1" from
: the beginning. The owner of the company came out and made the estimate
: on the water main replacement. He told me I'd see absolutely no benefit
: and that I should stick with 3/4". So did the other licensed bidder. So,
: I find it odd that basically EVERYONE in the newsgroups would tell me I
: should do 1". I'm still trying to understand it. Anyway, it's done as of
: sundown yesterday and 3/4" it is!
:
: Dan
:
:It is kind of like the 200 amp breaker panel or using 12 ga wire where
:14 ga would do. I just sleep better knowing overkill is awake. Usually
:the cost difference is small, and the cost of doing it over large,
:should it need to be larger in the future.

Yeah, I like the idea of overkill, especially when the price
differential isn't that great and very especially when future
requirements might make "overkill" look like foresight!

Dan

On 10 Jan 2007 07:03:40 -0800, "Eric in North TX"
wrote:

: Indeed, they tried to discourage me from thinking of doing it in 1" from
: the beginning. The owner of the company came out and made the estimate
: on the water main replacement. He told me I'd see absolutely no benefit
: and that I should stick with 3/4". So did the other licensed bidder. So,
: I find it odd that basically EVERYONE in the newsgroups would tell me I
: should do 1". I'm still trying to understand it. Anyway, it's done as of
: sundown yesterday and 3/4" it is!
:
: Dan
:
:It is kind of like the 200 amp breaker panel or using 12 ga wire where
:14 ga would do. I just sleep better knowing overkill is awake. Usually
:the cost difference is small, and the cost of doing it over large,
:should it need to be larger in the future.


Maybe it's because of the high water pressure here, maybe the fact that
most of the houses in my neighborhood aren't particularly big, or both.
But looking around the neighborhood and inspecting for water service
lines I don't think I spotted a single 1" service -- mostly 3/4", a few
old 1/2". So, that made it easier to not get testy with the 1" thing.
Still, that $600 thing took me aback. I just said "screw it."

Dan

I have a 2 bathroom house...when I had the plumber come out to estimate
a new main, he said " 3/4 inch plastic" I think, maybe he said
copper. Anyhow, I asked why not do 1" while we're in there anyhow, he
said "you'll never know the difference, 3/4" is pretty much standard.
Are you planning on adding any more bathrooms or something?"

He's probably right. Either way, he estimated $2,000 to redo the
main, and I thought "forget it, that's a lot of beer...and it's too
much work to dig that big old 36" deep trench."

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:23:37 -0600, Chris Hill
wrote:

:I didn't get that either. We have 3/4 and it has been fine. As I
:recall, other parts of your service were already 3/4, so there would
:have been no benefit from going with 1-incyh. Maybe if you wanted to
ut in a sprinkler system or something, but otherwise why bother.

Actually, everything in the house is 1/2" galvanized and almost all of
it old. Well, there's a bit of new copper in one bathroom. Really, I
would see no benefit from 1". The thought of 1" was really for whoever
buys the house from me as I don't intend to live here very long. Anyway,
3/4" is what was used. I certainly have no thoughts about putting in a
sprinkler system here.