Hello all....I am getting ready to replace the 60 year old wiring that
goes from my house to my detached garage. I recently had the house
service upgraded from a 60 amp fuse service to a 200 amp circuit panel,
and now want to replace the old wiring going to the garage. The
existing wiring goes through an underground conduit from my cellar to
the garage. I plan on having a compressor and eventually a welder
(automotive stuff...nothing too fancy), and nothing much else out
there. My question is; what guage or type of wire should I run out
there? I am planning on installing all the breaker panel, but not
making the final connections...I'm new at this stuff.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

"Clint" wrote in message
ps.com...
Hello all....I am getting ready to replace the 60 year old wiring that
goes from my house to my detached garage. I recently had the house
service upgraded from a 60 amp fuse service to a 200 amp circuit panel,
and now want to replace the old wiring going to the garage. The
existing wiring goes through an underground conduit from my cellar to
the garage. I plan on having a compressor and eventually a welder
(automotive stuff...nothing too fancy), and nothing much else out
there. My question is; what guage or type of wire should I run out
there? I am planning on installing all the breaker panel, but not
making the final connections...I'm new at this stuff.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.



The size and amps of the welder will determine what you need. That is a big
draw.

No welder and for a 50 foot run or less I would think 10/3 wg and a 4
breaker subpanel would be all you needed. That would give you one 220 and
2 20's. Of course you could not use it all at once.

Would not be surprised to see the load calculations for a welder double or
treble that wire and box size.

Maybe Doug will give you a better answer.


Colbyt

In article om, "Clint" wrote:
Hello all....I am getting ready to replace the 60 year old wiring that
goes from my house to my detached garage. I recently had the house
service upgraded from a 60 amp fuse service to a 200 amp circuit panel,
and now want to replace the old wiring going to the garage. The
existing wiring goes through an underground conduit from my cellar to
the garage. I plan on having a compressor and eventually a welder
(automotive stuff...nothing too fancy), and nothing much else out
there. My question is; what guage or type of wire should I run out
there?

No way to know that, without knowing the requirements of your compressor and
welder. How many amps do they require? And at what voltage? (120 or 240)

I am planning on installing all the breaker panel, but not
making the final connections...I'm new at this stuff.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

How big is the conduit?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

No way to know that, without knowing the requirements of your
compressor and
welder. How many amps do they require? And at what voltage? (120 or
240)

First...thanks for the quick responses. Second, my plans are to make
the garage into a place where I can work on my Jeep and change the oil
in the car and truck...nothing too extensive. My hopes were to install
a 100 amp sub panel in the garage, and have the capacity to do pretty
much what I please out there. A 240 welder in the future is not out of
the question, so I would definately like to take that into account now.
Any compressor would be to run air tools...not a paint booth ar
anything like that. The existing conduit looks to be 3/4" or so, and
there is already 240 out there to a fuse box.

In article . com, "Clint" wrote:

No way to know that, without knowing the requirements of your
compressor and
welder. How many amps do they require? And at what voltage? (120 or
240)

First...thanks for the quick responses. Second, my plans are to make
the garage into a place where I can work on my Jeep and change the oil
in the car and truck...nothing too extensive. My hopes were to install
a 100 amp sub panel in the garage, and have the capacity to do pretty
much what I please out there. A 240 welder in the future is not out of
the question, so I would definately like to take that into account now.

A 100A subpanel ought to take care of pretty much anything you might want to
put there -- welder, compressor, table saw...

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial conduit.

Any compressor would be to run air tools...not a paint booth ar
anything like that. The existing conduit looks to be 3/4" or so, and
there is already 240 out there to a fuse box.

Well, that's going to be a problem. Code limits you to two 4ga conductors in a
3/4" conduit, and, quite frankly, it would be a hell of a challenge to pull
even that through a 3/4" conduit of any significant length.

The Code limits you to 6ga copper, maximum, in a 3/4" conduit, for three
current-carrying conductors, which in turn limits you to 60 amps, tops. As a
practical matter, though, it's going to be pretty tough to pull three of
anything, plus a ground, any bigger than 8ga, and even that won't be real
easy.

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something a lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:16:05 -0500, "Colbyt"
wrote:


"Clint" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hello all....I am getting ready to replace the 60 year old wiring that
goes from my house to my detached garage. I recently had the house
service upgraded from a 60 amp fuse service to a 200 amp circuit panel,
and now want to replace the old wiring going to the garage. The
existing wiring goes through an underground conduit from my cellar to
the garage. I plan on having a compressor and eventually a welder
(automotive stuff...nothing too fancy), and nothing much else out
there. My question is; what guage or type of wire should I run out
there? I am planning on installing all the breaker panel, but not
making the final connections...I'm new at this stuff.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.



The size and amps of the welder will determine what you need. That is a big
draw.

How BIG a conduit?
If it's too small, that may limit the size of the conductors you
can pull.

snip/

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something a
lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.


While you are at it running new conduit, make your trench a bit wider and
run another piece of 1-1/2" PVC with some pull ropes as well for coax,
cat5or6, maybe even fiber.....

In article , "jackson" wrote:

snip/

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something a
lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.


While you are at it running new conduit, make your trench a bit wider and
run another piece of 1-1/2" PVC with some pull ropes as well for coax,
cat5or6, maybe even fiber.....

To the garage??

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "jackson"
wrote:

snip/

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd
be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something a
lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.


While you are at it running new conduit, make your trench a bit wider and
run another piece of 1-1/2" PVC with some pull ropes as well for coax,
cat5or6, maybe even fiber.....

To the garage??

Standard guy wet dream- plasma screen to watch the game while working on the
car or in the woodshop. I can actually see the utility of having broadband
out there, to use a junk PC to look up or order stuff without having to get
cleaned up. And for a lot of retired guys, the garage becomes their Sekret
Klubhouse, No Girlz Allowed, for when the wife gets tired of having them
underfoot and shoos them outside to play.

I'm a simple man- a phone jack and rabbit ears on an old portable TV would
do for me. But yeah, an extra pipe and pull rope comes under the heading of
'as long as you have the trench open'. Who knows what currently unknown or
exotic technology will become a 'must have' 10-15 years from now.

aem sends...

aem sends....

On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 10:54:59 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "jackson" wrote:

snip/

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something a
lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.


While you are at it running new conduit, make your trench a bit wider and
run another piece of 1-1/2" PVC with some pull ropes as well for coax,
cat5or6, maybe even fiber.....

To the garage??

You never know when you're going to want to use a computer, phone, or
TV out there.
--
9 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask be to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

Doug Miller wrote:

In article . com, "Clint" wrote:

No way to know that, without knowing the requirements of your
compressor and
welder. How many amps do they require? And at what voltage? (120 or
240)

First...thanks for the quick responses. Second, my plans are to make
the garage into a place where I can work on my Jeep and change the oil
in the car and truck...nothing too extensive. My hopes were to install
a 100 amp sub panel in the garage, and have the capacity to do pretty
much what I please out there. A 240 welder in the future is not out of
the question, so I would definately like to take that into account now.


A 100A subpanel ought to take care of pretty much anything you might want to
put there -- welder, compressor, table saw...

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial conduit.

Actually you need 3ga. 4ga is ok for a residential service. This is a
feeder.

--
bud--

In article , Bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial conduit.

Actually you need 3ga. 4ga is ok for a residential service. This is a
feeder.

Yes, I know it's a feeder -- I referred to it as a feeder. (see above)

Refer to NEC 2005 Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-volt, 3-Wire Single Phase Dwelling Services

****and Feeders****

Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN, THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2.

AWG 4 copper is rated at 100 amps, AWG 3 at 110.

It's precisely *because* it's a feeder that 4ga is permitted -- if it were a
branch circuit, it would need to be 3ga as you say.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Standard guy wet dream- plasma screen to watch the game while working on the
car or in the woodshop. I can actually see the utility of having broadband

He who watch TV while working in shop soon
be called "Fingerless Jack".

out there, to use a junk PC to look up or order stuff without having to get
cleaned up. And for a lot of retired guys, the garage becomes their Sekret
Klubhouse, No Girlz Allowed, for when the wife gets tired of having them
underfoot and shoos them outside to play.

60A in the garage would be more than enough in my opinion. We ran a
detached for 30+ years with a 10-3 underground 200 feet away. 200A welder,
air compressor, overhead heater, fluorescent lights, bench grinder, etc.
Never once did we trip the 30 in the main house, nor did we experience the
lights in the garage dimming. Your mileage may vary.

--
Steve Barker



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article . com, "Clint"
wrote:

No way to know that, without knowing the requirements of your
compressor and
welder. How many amps do they require? And at what voltage? (120 or
240)

First...thanks for the quick responses. Second, my plans are to make
the garage into a place where I can work on my Jeep and change the oil
in the car and truck...nothing too extensive. My hopes were to install
a 100 amp sub panel in the garage, and have the capacity to do pretty
much what I please out there. A 240 welder in the future is not out of
the question, so I would definately like to take that into account now.

A 100A subpanel ought to take care of pretty much anything you might want
to
put there -- welder, compressor, table saw...

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or
equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial conduit.

Any compressor would be to run air tools...not a paint booth ar
anything like that. The existing conduit looks to be 3/4" or so, and
there is already 240 out there to a fuse box.

Well, that's going to be a problem. Code limits you to two 4ga conductors
in a
3/4" conduit, and, quite frankly, it would be a hell of a challenge to
pull
even that through a 3/4" conduit of any significant length.

The Code limits you to 6ga copper, maximum, in a 3/4" conduit, for three
current-carrying conductors, which in turn limits you to 60 amps, tops. As
a
practical matter, though, it's going to be pretty tough to pull three of
anything, plus a ground, any bigger than 8ga, and even that won't be real
easy.

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something a
lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Hmm, the desk and pc were the first things into my detached when we started
moving. My broad band connection actually starts there and is then wired
into the house.

--
Steve Barker


wrote in message
...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "jackson"
wrote:

snip/

Your best bet looks like installing a larger conduit. Looks like you'd
be
Code-compliant with a 1" PVC conduit, but I'd sure recommend something
a
lot
larger than that -- 1.5" or bigger -- to make the wires easier to pull.


While you are at it running new conduit, make your trench a bit wider and
run another piece of 1-1/2" PVC with some pull ropes as well for coax,
cat5or6, maybe even fiber.....

To the garage??

Standard guy wet dream- plasma screen to watch the game while working on
the car or in the woodshop. I can actually see the utility of having
broadband out there, to use a junk PC to look up or order stuff without
having to get cleaned up. And for a lot of retired guys, the garage
becomes their Sekret Klubhouse, No Girlz Allowed, for when the wife gets
tired of having them underfoot and shoos them outside to play.

I'm a simple man- a phone jack and rabbit ears on an old portable TV would
do for me. But yeah, an extra pipe and pull rope comes under the heading
of 'as long as you have the trench open'. Who knows what currently unknown
or exotic technology will become a 'must have' 10-15 years from now.

aem sends...

aem sends....

That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power feeder"
not to feeders in general




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , Bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or
equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial conduit.

Actually you need 3ga. 4ga is ok for a residential service. This is a
feeder.

Yes, I know it's a feeder -- I referred to it as a feeder. (see above)

Refer to NEC 2005 Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-volt, 3-Wire Single Phase Dwelling Services

****and Feeders****

Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN, THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2,
XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2.

AWG 4 copper is rated at 100 amps, AWG 3 at 110.

It's precisely *because* it's a feeder that 4ga is permitted -- if it were
a
branch circuit, it would need to be 3ga as you say.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

My post to this top post is at the bottom.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power feeder"
not to feeders in general




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , Bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or
equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for
the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial
conduit.

Actually you need 3ga. 4ga is ok for a residential service. This is a
feeder.

Yes, I know it's a feeder -- I referred to it as a feeder. (see above)

Refer to NEC 2005 Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-volt, 3-Wire Single Phase Dwelling Services

****and Feeders****

Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN, THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2,
XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2.

AWG 4 copper is rated at 100 amps, AWG 3 at 110.

It's precisely *because* it's a feeder that 4ga is permitted -- if it
were a
branch circuit, it would need to be 3ga as you say.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.




For the OP. I am betting on Doug in this contest. I have never seen him
give a response that I considered wrong.


Colbyt

No question, Doug is sharp, but I think it's the NEC that is misleading. The
table he quoted, says exactly what he said, but the paragraph before that
table clarifies that "feeders" actually means the main power feeder between
the main disconnect and panel







"Colbyt" wrote in message
...

My post to this top post is at the bottom.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power
feeder" not to feeders in general




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , Bud--
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or
equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for
the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial
conduit.

Actually you need 3ga. 4ga is ok for a residential service. This is a
feeder.

Yes, I know it's a feeder -- I referred to it as a feeder. (see above)

Refer to NEC 2005 Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-volt, 3-Wire Single Phase Dwelling Services

****and Feeders****

Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN, THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2,
XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2.

AWG 4 copper is rated at 100 amps, AWG 3 at 110.

It's precisely *because* it's a feeder that 4ga is permitted -- if it
were a
branch circuit, it would need to be 3ga as you say.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.




For the OP. I am betting on Doug in this contest. I have never seen him
give a response that I considered wrong.


Colbyt

RBM wrote:
No question, Doug is sharp, but I think it's the NEC that is misleading. The
table he quoted, says exactly what he said, but the paragraph before that
table clarifies that "feeders" actually means the main power feeder between
the main disconnect and panel

Amplifying, the intent is to cover a fedder from a service
disconnect-only to a panel with the over current devices. This feeder is
not service conductors. and would not normally qualify for using the
reduced wire size allowed for service conductors. Since this feeder
carries the same current as service conductors, it is allowed to use the
same reduce conductor size. 310.15-B-6 continues "For application of
this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder(s) between the
main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch circuit
panelboard(s). The feeder conductors to a dwelling unit shall not be
required to have an allowable ampacity greater than the
service--entrance conductors." Residential service wires are allowed to
use a reduced wire size because of "diversity" - there are many
different kinds of loads and not everything will run at once. It is not
known if feeders in general will have that diversity.

Doug is sharp, but we all make mistakes and the NEC is full of possible
gotchas.

--
bud--








"Colbyt" wrote in message
...

My post to this top post is at the bottom.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...

That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power
feeder" not to feeders in general




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.net...

In article , Bud--
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

For a 100A 240V feeder, you need three 4ga copper wires (type THHN or
equiv)
for the two hots and the neutral, and one 8ga copper wire, bare, for
the
equipment ground. And that's going to mean a pretty substantial
conduit.


Actually you need 3ga. 4ga is ok for a residential service. This is a
feeder.


Yes, I know it's a feeder -- I referred to it as a feeder. (see above)

Refer to NEC 2005 Table 310.15(B)(6) Conductor Types and Sizes for
120/240-volt, 3-Wire Single Phase Dwelling Services

****and Feeders****

Conductor Types RHH, RHW, RHW-2, THHN, THHW, THW, THW-2, THWN, THWN-2,
XHHW,
XHHW-2, SE, USE, USE-2.

AWG 4 copper is rated at 100 amps, AWG 3 at 110.

It's precisely *because* it's a feeder that 4ga is permitted -- if it
were a
branch circuit, it would need to be 3ga as you say.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



For the OP. I am betting on Doug in this contest. I have never seen him
give a response that I considered wrong.


Colbyt

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel (which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In a situation where the service disconnect is in the main service panel,
there is no main feeder



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the
feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and
panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel
(which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and
it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your
opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
In a situation where the service disconnect is in the main service panel,
there is no main feeder

And feeders from the main panel to subpanels don't qualify? As described in
the Code, it seems that they would.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the
feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and
panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel
(which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and
it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your
opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Correct, only the main feeder(s) to the panelboard(s) qualify. If he has
multiple service disconnects, and one of them fed the garage panel, it would
qualify, but not if his garage feeder came off of a breaker from a panel
which was on the load side of a service disconnect
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
In a situation where the service disconnect is in the main service panel,
there is no main feeder

And feeders from the main panel to subpanels don't qualify? As described
in
the Code, it seems that they would.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power
feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the
feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch
circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and
panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel
(which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and
a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and
it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your
opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other
ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Correct, only the main feeder(s) to the panelboard(s) qualify. If he has
multiple service disconnects, and one of them fed the garage panel, it would
qualify, but not if his garage feeder came off of a breaker from a panel
which was on the load side of a service disconnect

Gotcha. "Load side of the service disconnect" seems to be the crucial part.

Thanks for the clarification.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
In a situation where the service disconnect is in the main service panel,
there is no main feeder

And feeders from the main panel to subpanels don't qualify? As described
in
the Code, it seems that they would.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power
feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the
feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch
circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and
panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel
(which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and
a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and
it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your
opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other
ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
In a situation where the service disconnect is in the main service panel,
there is no main feeder

And feeders from the main panel to subpanels don't qualify? As described in
the Code, it seems that they would.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the
feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and
panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel
(which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and
it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your
opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



No such feeders to panels that supply only a fractional portion of the
dwelling units load do not qualify. The use of the plural in the code
language is intended to cover feeders to multiple dwelling units within
a single structure. Each feeder must be the main feeder for the entire
dwelling unit in question. The reduced conductor sizes are predicated
on the diversity of loading that is inherent in the way an entire
dwelling uses power. When only parts of the load are carried by a sub
feeder that diversity is no longer assured.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

RBM wrote:
Correct, only the main feeder(s) to the panelboard(s) qualify. If he has
multiple service disconnects, and one of them fed the garage panel, it would
qualify, but not if his garage feeder came off of a breaker from a panel
which was on the load side of a service disconnect
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
In a situation where the service disconnect is in the main service panel,
there is no main feeder
And feeders from the main panel to subpanels don't qualify? As described
in
the Code, it seems that they would.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
That table only applies to dwelling services and their "main power
feeder"
not to feeders in general

"For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the
feeder(s)
between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch
circuit
panelboard(s)." [Art. 310.15(B)(6)]

Note the deliberate inclusion of the plural in feeder(s) and
panelboard(s).

Since the feeder in question runs between the service entrance panel
(which,
in a single family dwelling, is the location of the main disconnect) and
a
branch circuit panelboard, it appears to me to qualify.

As always, though, the local inspection authority has the final say, and
it
would be best to ask their opinion -- since, in the end, neither your
opinion
nor mine matters at all if the local inspection authority has other
ideas.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



The section in question covers only dwelling units. A detached garage
is not a dwelling unit. Residential outbuildings of any description that
are not in fact dwelling units must be supplied with conductors sized in
accordance to table 310.16.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison