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Old November 16th 06, 02:58 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Default Water spike problems in my house.

I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?


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Old November 16th 06, 03:09 PM posted to alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 747
Default Water spike problems in my house.

eastcoastguyz wrote:

I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?


Revoke his license.

A thermal expansion tank is required any time a PRV is
present on a municipal supply.

Yes, he can get away without one in 75% of the installs
maybe because the street pressure is low enough.

The exp tank gets connected on the *Cold* inlet
side of the heater. When the water heats up, it
expands, raising the pressure in the tank.
The PRV prevents the expansion from backing up
out to the street. (There are exceptions to this,
but not important here.) To absorb these spikes,
an expansion tank is necessary.

So, the pressure spikes you see do affect *both*
Hot and Cold lines since they are joined by the heater.

Retail on the exp tank is about $40 to $50.
Install is easy.

Jim
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Old November 16th 06, 03:51 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 317
Default Water spike problems in my house.

I second the notion that it is caused from thermal gain from heating the
water. My camper is real bad about this when I use the PRV on it, because a
PRV also acts as a check valve.

--
Steve Barker



"eastcoastguyz" wrote in message
ups.com...
I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



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Old November 16th 06, 03:56 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Default Water spike problems in my house.

eastcoastguyz wrote:
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?


Yep.

MM
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Old November 16th 06, 03:58 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,600
Default Water spike problems in my house.

eastcoastguyz wrote:
I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?

Hi,
Air in the line?


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Old November 16th 06, 04:12 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Oct 2006
Posts: 5
Default Water spike problems in my house.

"eastcoastguyz" wrote

Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



Yes, with the PRV installed you need an expansion tank.
I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water heater
to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and to ensure
there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system.



Bob Wheatley


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Old November 16th 06, 04:58 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
drd drd is offline
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Default Water spike problems in my house.


"Bob Wheatley" wrote in message
...
"eastcoastguyz" wrote

Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



Yes, with the PRV installed you need an expansion tank.
I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system.



Bob Wheatley


listen to this chap - he speaks the truth ...

(What's the difference between God and a plumber?








God doesn't think he's a plumber)


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Old November 16th 06, 06:20 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Oct 2006
Posts: 25
Default Water spike problems in my house.


"I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and
to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system. "

1. The money would be better well spent on beer and pizza.

2. Some PRV's allow for thermal expansion, eg. Watts AUB series.

3. The thing you need to get is a new plumber, Maybe one that owns a
pressure gauge.

kenny b

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Old November 16th 06, 07:10 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
MLD MLD is offline
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 286
Default Water spike problems in my house.


wrote in message
ups.com...

"I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and
to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system. "

1. The money would be better well spent on beer and pizza.

2. Some PRV's allow for thermal expansion, eg. Watts AUB series.

3. The thing you need to get is a new plumber, Maybe one that owns a
pressure gauge.

kenny b


What I would guess is: The dynamics of the reducing valve maybe too slow in
getting to its steady state regulating position. With no flow the valve is
in a closed position. When there is a sudden flow demand (opening a faucet)
the valve moves opens to provide flow but actually overshoots its steady
state position. For whatever reason it then slowly closes down to regulate
the pressure. It's during that time frame that there is high flow out of the
faucet. In high performance systems, PRV are fast acting with time
constants in the order of 15-20 millisecond. There are many things that
slow down the transient response of these type of valves--in many cases it
is getting the control pressure to bleed down allowing the valve to respond
quickly Usually a damping orifice being too small is one reason.
MLD


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Old November 16th 06, 07:48 PM posted to pdaxs.services.plumbing,alt.home.repair,misc.consumers.house
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Oct 2006
Posts: 25
Default Water spike problems in my house.


MLD wrote:

What I would guess is: The dynamics of the reducing valve maybe too slow in
getting to its steady state regulating position. With no flow the valve is
in a closed position. When there is a sudden flow demand (opening a faucet)
the valve moves opens to provide flow but actually overshoots its steady
state position. For whatever reason it then slowly closes down to regulate
the pressure. It's during that time frame that there is high flow out of the
faucet. In high performance systems, PRV are fast acting with time
constants in the order of 15-20 millisecond. There are many things that
slow down the transient response of these type of valves--in many cases it
is getting the control pressure to bleed down allowing the valve to respond
quickly Usually a damping orifice being too small is one reason.
MLD



Just what people need here is more phyco babble bull**** to confuse
people even more. When all that was really needed was a plumber with a
gauge and a little knowledge on how to use one.
Instead you got a plumber that replaces things because they look old so
it must be bad theory.

kennyb



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