I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

-Jason

wrote:
I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

16 gauge is not the usual. 14 gauge Romex is the standard minimum.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

Most likely you will have to replace the wiring as well as the fixtures
and switches. Only a local electrician will be able to inspect the
situation and tell you exactly what needs to be done.

R

wrote:
I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

-Jason


If that home inspector really knew what he was talking about, you might
just have some 12 volt AC relays switching the power to those lights.
The relays could be controlled by those switches.

The buzzing you hear could be from the relays which may have parts which
have gotten worn and a little loose over the years.

Rather unorthodox, but not unheard of.

If you're ignorant in basic electrical apparatus then seek help from
someone who can determine if you do have some relays located somewhere,
find 'em and see what can be done.

Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.

I think I'm a hotshot about things electrical and electronic, but I'm at
a total loss about many other subjects like music and the bible and I
was born without a sports gene. I even have trouble remembering which
two teams played in the World Series this year.

I have no problem with other people's ignorances, it's stupidity I can't
take. G

Good luck,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

wrote:
I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

-Jason


Do a GOOGLE search for GE RR7 or GE RR9.

This was a very, very popular remote control system
in the 60's in upscale homes. A large percentage are
still in use today and the owners like them.

The system allowed multiple control of room lighting,
that is, switches in many locations could control a
single light. Can control outdoor lighting as well.
And individual room receptacles too.

All the switch/pushbutton wiring is low voltage,
which gave the builder flexibility at low installed cost.

The GE relays are still available from distributors
and this company makes replacement models:
http://www.reliantrelay.com/page2.html

There was a forum discussion he
http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/archive/2000/02/13/


No, you can't directly replace the switches with 120V
ones or install dimmers. This would entail some
re-wiring.

Jim

wrote:
I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge.

Likely three way switches.

If it is 18 or 20 gauge wire you have some big problems if you are in
NA. What country are you located in?

When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Interesting, I have no guess. Well maybe one. Maybe that 12V idea
means he determined that you have a low voltage switching circuit using
relays. That would explain the small wires and buzz. That could also be
explained by low voltage halogen lamps.


Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

I hope not 16 gauge in NA that should be at least 14. In 1965 it would
almost certainly be 14 not 12.


I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

That depends on what that 12V system really is.



-Jason



--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.

wrote:
As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.

This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R

RicodJour wrote:

wrote:

As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.


This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim

Speedy Jim wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

wrote:

As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.



This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim
Also, because the relay usually latches
mechanically, it recovers from a power
failure gracefully, i.e.it stays latched
if it was on prior to the outage.

Speedy Jim wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

wrote:

As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.



This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim
And one more thing, I wish my house had
these. It makes for real easy automation.

These relays are cylindrical and fit into a 1900 box with the bulk of the
cylinder sticking out of the box(the low voltage side). They are a pain in
the ass in that you can't just replace switches with dimmers, but the damn
things seem to last forever. The "buzz" sound only occurs while a switch is
being pressed, then the relay latches into the open or closed position



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
.. .
RicodJour wrote:

wrote:

As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.


This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:14:56 -0500, Jeff Wisnia
wrote:

wrote:
I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

-Jason


If that home inspector really knew what he was talking about, you might
just have some 12 volt AC relays switching the power to those lights.
The relays could be controlled by those switches.

The buzzing you hear could be from the relays which may have parts which
have gotten worn and a little loose over the years.

Rather unorthodox, but not unheard of.

If you're ignorant in basic electrical apparatus then seek help from
someone who can determine if you do have some relays located somewhere,
find 'em and see what can be done.

Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.


I can remember my parents saying "ignorant" a lot when I was I child.
I didn't know what it meant then and thought it was a dirty word. I
still remember the feeling.

I think I'm a hotshot about things electrical and electronic, but I'm at
a total loss about many other subjects like music and the bible and I
was born without a sports gene. I even have trouble remembering which
two teams played in the World Series this year.


Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because
it's simple. There's none of that complicated (and weird) stuff often
found in human behavior.

In something like 2+2=4 you don't have to consider things like how
that first 2 feels about the particular shade of pink the + likes, or
the ='s headache and nasty attitude toward addition today. Electrons
don't get lazy and block the wires on Sunday, reciting bible verses
when asked to move.

Most sports are very boring to watch. It would take some sort of
personal involvement to enjoy such.

I have no problem with other people's ignorances, it's stupidity I can't
take. G


And stupidity is extremely common.

Good luck,

Jeff
--
49 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

posted for all of us...

the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex

I hope not it should be 14 gauge min. You should get your wire guages
straightened out...
--
Tekkie Don't bother to thank me, I do this as a public service.

I have never heard of this but it sounds cool. I am guessing that the
switches are momentary SPDT and the relays latch either way? That would
be incredibly easy to add additional controls to, no need for annoying
three way switches etc... if it works as I imagine, why wouldn't it have
caught on? Too much cost? wouldn't meet current code? just curious

nate

RBM wrote:
These relays are cylindrical and fit into a 1900 box with the bulk of the
cylinder sticking out of the box(the low voltage side). They are a pain in
the ass in that you can't just replace switches with dimmers, but the damn
things seem to last forever. The "buzz" sound only occurs while a switch is
being pressed, then the relay latches into the open or closed position



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
.. .

RicodJour wrote:


wrote:


As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.


This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim





--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

I have never heard of this but it sounds cool. I am guessing that the
switches are momentary SPDT and the relays latch either way? That would
be incredibly easy to add additional controls to, no need for annoying
three way switches etc... if it works as I imagine, why wouldn't it have
caught on? Too much cost? wouldn't meet current code? just curious

nate

Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!

I suppose X10 has supplanted it, but the system is
still being promoted in commercial applications where a
minicomputer controls the relays. Endless possibilities!

Jim






RBM wrote:

These relays are cylindrical and fit into a 1900 box with the bulk of
the cylinder sticking out of the box(the low voltage side). They are a
pain in the ass in that you can't just replace switches with dimmers,
but the damn things seem to last forever. The "buzz" sound only occurs
while a switch is being pressed, then the relay latches into the open
or closed position



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
.. .

RicodJour wrote:


wrote:


As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time to
replace the relay.



This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim

Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!


I remember these. It was sort of like an X10 system with wires.

One big problem was maintenance. These were usually installed in a
home during the original construction. The relays were mounted in
electric box cutouts with the relay mechanism outside the box and
inaccessible behind the plasterboard.

If a relay went bad, it was almost impossible to replace it without
smashing a hole in the wall.

The switches also went bad, from time to time. They were really no
more than SPDT momentary doorbell buttons.

Beachcomber

Try "unfamiliar with"... has a better ring.

--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
et...
wrote:
I'm very confused by the electrical setup of my 1965-built home.
Around a year ago, a home inspector told me that electrical projects
would be more costly/confusing as the house was built with a "12-volt
electrical system".

The switches are odd as I've looked at the back of a few switches and
they have 3 contacts each. one black/one red and one white. The wire
is stranded 18 or 20 gauge. When you turn any of the switches off or
on, you hear an audible "buzz" which is louder in a few rooms in the
house.

Otherwise, all of my outlets are 120 volt normal outlets, the ceiling
fans and lights are the usual solid 16 gauge romex, it's just the
switches that are odd.

I would like to replace these switches over time with modern two
position 120 volt switches so I can use dimmers, etc. Any advise on
what I should be searching for as to information about this '12 volt
system"?

-Jason


If that home inspector really knew what he was talking about, you might
just have some 12 volt AC relays switching the power to those lights. The
relays could be controlled by those switches.

The buzzing you hear could be from the relays which may have parts which
have gotten worn and a little loose over the years.

Rather unorthodox, but not unheard of.

If you're ignorant in basic electrical apparatus then seek help from
someone who can determine if you do have some relays located somewhere,
find 'em and see what can be done.

Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.

I think I'm a hotshot about things electrical and electronic, but I'm at a
total loss about many other subjects like music and the bible and I was
born without a sports gene. I even have trouble remembering which two
teams played in the World Series this year.

I have no problem with other people's ignorances, it's stupidity I can't
take. G

Good luck,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

Never heard of this, but what a great idea.
Indeed, wish I had this in my place.
I have an idea that in places w/ stricter interpretation of the NEC, that
this probably wasn't allowed.
At one time, NYC allowed only *eight* #12 wires in 1" emt, and *three* in
1/2"! No romex allowed, etc.
I believe they've relaxed some of this, but it gives you an idea of how
tight-assed some places can be.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
m...
Nate Nagel wrote:

I have never heard of this but it sounds cool. I am guessing that the
switches are momentary SPDT and the relays latch either way? That would
be incredibly easy to add additional controls to, no need for annoying
three way switches etc... if it works as I imagine, why wouldn't it have
caught on? Too much cost? wouldn't meet current code? just curious

nate

Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!

I suppose X10 has supplanted it, but the system is
still being promoted in commercial applications where a
minicomputer controls the relays. Endless possibilities!

Jim






RBM wrote:

These relays are cylindrical and fit into a 1900 box with the bulk of
the cylinder sticking out of the box(the low voltage side). They are a
pain in the ass in that you can't just replace switches with dimmers,
but the damn things seem to last forever. The "buzz" sound only occurs
while a switch is being pressed, then the relay latches into the open or
closed position



"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
.. .

RicodJour wrote:


wrote:


As Speedy Jim said these are 12 volt AC switches that operate the
relay contacts for the normal 120 volts AC. There is nothing wrong
with this type of system. It is safer and more flexible. A certain
amount of hum is normal because the solenoid coil that operates the
relay contacts gets magnetized by a 12 volt 60 cycle source coming
off of a transformer. If the solenoid buzzes to much then it's time
to
replace the relay.



This is a new system on me and I have a couple of questions for you.

What's the typical size wire running from the low voltage switches to
the AC contacts?
Could you demagnetize the relay or would that mess up the coil
somehow?

R



The system has a 24V transformer (and a diode rectifier).
#18 gage low voltage wire (think bell wire) connects the switches
to the relays and to the 24V power supply.

The "Load" side of the relay (relay contacts) has 120V
with either #14 or #12 "house" wire connecting the relay
to the lights or whatever it is controlling.

"Could you demagnetize the relay"
Does not compute...

Jim

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 02:17:01 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:



Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!


I remember these. It was sort of like an X10 system with wires.

One big problem was maintenance. These were usually installed in a
home during the original construction. The relays were mounted in
electric box cutouts with the relay mechanism outside the box and
inaccessible behind the plasterboard.

If a relay went bad, it was almost impossible to replace it without
smashing a hole in the wall.

The switches also went bad, from time to time. They were really no
more than SPDT momentary doorbell buttons.


I didn't know they made SPDT doorbell buttons. Every one I've seen has
been SPST. SPST would be enough for controlling relays too.

Beachcomber


--
49 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

Not true, they were almost always mounted in 1900 boxes at light or outlet
locations and the relays come out the same way they go in. You do have to
remove the fixture and or outlet first.



"Beachcomber" wrote in message
...


Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!


I remember these. It was sort of like an X10 system with wires.

One big problem was maintenance. These were usually installed in a
home during the original construction. The relays were mounted in
electric box cutouts with the relay mechanism outside the box and
inaccessible behind the plasterboard.

If a relay went bad, it was almost impossible to replace it without
smashing a hole in the wall.

The switches also went bad, from time to time. They were really no
more than SPDT momentary doorbell buttons.

Beachcomber

Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 02:17:01 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:


Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!



I remember these. It was sort of like an X10 system with wires.

One big problem was maintenance. These were usually installed in a
home during the original construction. The relays were mounted in
electric box cutouts with the relay mechanism outside the box and
inaccessible behind the plasterboard.

If a relay went bad, it was almost impossible to replace it without
smashing a hole in the wall.

The switches also went bad, from time to time. They were really no
more than SPDT momentary doorbell buttons.



I didn't know they made SPDT doorbell buttons. Every one I've seen has
been SPST. SPST would be enough for controlling relays too.

There is a whole line of switches made
for these things. Actually, they are
not strictly SPDT, but are momentary
SPDT with a center off (the rest
position). They have them in single,
double, triple, etc gang. When my new
church was built about 20 years ago, the
wonderful architect designed 2
multi-purpose rooms, but didn't put in
light switches. The switches, actually
breakers, were far from the rooms. I
can't tell you how many times, during a
meeting, someone at the breaker panel,
while turning off other light, would
plunge our meeting into darkness. There
were 2 circuits in each of the 2 rooms.
I put in the GE relays and 2 switches
in each of the 2 rooms. The circuit
breakers were marked, "you touch, you
die" .... well not actually. They were
moved to the bottom of the breaker box.
Anyway, I used the low voltage units
because I had to snake the wires through
concrete block walls, which is nearly
impossible. So, the low voltage wires
actually come down from the ceiling in
an adjacent closet. I could have run
conduit, but it would have been much
more difficult. I have had 1 of the
relays and 2 of the switches fail in 20
years. I think the switch failed
because the relay was intermittent and
people were pressing it harder and
harder .... finally breaking the switch.
BTW, I 1st saw this stuff in the 60s
in a custom built house. Also, in the
late 70s, I worked for a company that
used them in all their offices for
lighting.

Thanks so much fellas!

by the way, I'm in Kansas... the wire is probably 14 gauge or whatever
code is. The relay stuff was all that I was concerned with.... sorry
for stating "16 gauge" when it's actually the usual romex.

Very glad to hear I don't have to replace my entire house electrical
just to add a few can lights... From what I've gathered from all of
your comments, I can just work around these relays and switches and
just make new runs from my breaker box.


Art Todesco wrote:
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 02:17:01 GMT, (Beachcomber)
wrote:


Correct. Momentary switches. The 24V is rectified, so
a DC pulse is applied to one winding or the other of the relay.
The relay then latches magnetically and needs no more input power.
A switch anywhere else in the house can then cause the relay to
change state.

A nice application is a large property where outside lights
can be switched on/off from dozens of indoor locations.
Or, a bank of switches can control *any* light in the house from
one location!

The system *did* catch on and was quite popular.
But this was 40 years ago!!



I remember these. It was sort of like an X10 system with wires.

One big problem was maintenance. These were usually installed in a
home during the original construction. The relays were mounted in
electric box cutouts with the relay mechanism outside the box and
inaccessible behind the plasterboard.

If a relay went bad, it was almost impossible to replace it without
smashing a hole in the wall.

The switches also went bad, from time to time. They were really no
more than SPDT momentary doorbell buttons.



I didn't know they made SPDT doorbell buttons. Every one I've seen has
been SPST. SPST would be enough for controlling relays too.

There is a whole line of switches made
for these things. Actually, they are
not strictly SPDT, but are momentary
SPDT with a center off (the rest
position). They have them in single,
double, triple, etc gang. When my new
church was built about 20 years ago, the
wonderful architect designed 2
multi-purpose rooms, but didn't put in
light switches. The switches, actually
breakers, were far from the rooms. I
can't tell you how many times, during a
meeting, someone at the breaker panel,
while turning off other light, would
plunge our meeting into darkness. There
were 2 circuits in each of the 2 rooms.
I put in the GE relays and 2 switches
in each of the 2 rooms. The circuit
breakers were marked, "you touch, you
die" .... well not actually. They were
moved to the bottom of the breaker box.
Anyway, I used the low voltage units
because I had to snake the wires through
concrete block walls, which is nearly
impossible. So, the low voltage wires
actually come down from the ceiling in
an adjacent closet. I could have run
conduit, but it would have been much
more difficult. I have had 1 of the
relays and 2 of the switches fail in 20
years. I think the switch failed
because the relay was intermittent and
people were pressing it harder and
harder .... finally breaking the switch.
BTW, I 1st saw this stuff in the 60s
in a custom built house. Also, in the
late 70s, I worked for a company that
used them in all their offices for
lighting.

wrote:
Thanks so much fellas!

by the way, I'm in Kansas... the wire is probably 14 gauge or whatever
code is. The relay stuff was all that I was concerned with.... sorry
for stating "16 gauge" when it's actually the usual romex.

Very glad to hear I don't have to replace my entire house electrical
just to add a few can lights... From what I've gathered from all of
your comments, I can just work around these relays and switches and
just make new runs from my breaker box.

Talking about 16 gauge Romex, I was in
Bangkok in the late 90s and in the
hotel, I noted that the lights in the
closets were wired with 16 gauge Romex.
Of course, being non-US, it was 240
volts and was probably fused at 7 amps.
I was shocked to see Romex in a large,
downtown, many story building. But, I
guess the codes are different there and
most US cities.

Mark Lloyd wrote:
....
Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because
it's simple. There's none of that complicated (and weird) stuff ...

No, nothing at all weird or complicated other than quantum tunneling,
wave/particle duality and relativity effects, the possibility of 20-odd
"miniature/hidden" dimensions, etc., etc., etc., ...

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 03:24:14 GMT, Art Todesco
wrote:

[snip]

I didn't know they made SPDT doorbell buttons. Every one I've seen has
been SPST. SPST would be enough for controlling relays too.

There is a whole line of switches made
for these things. Actually, they are
not strictly SPDT, but are momentary
SPDT with a center off (the rest
position).

I've seen the ones that work like 2 SPST switches with a common
button, where you press on one end to close one switch, the other end
to close the other switch. They may be designed with a common
connection. Such a switch might be used with a 2-coil latching relay,
for on and off. I don't know why you'd use one for a doorbell.

BTW, I have been considering such a switching circuit for my bedroom.

[snip]
--
48 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:43:41 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:


Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.


I can remember my parents saying "ignorant" a lot when I was I child.
I didn't know what it meant then and thought it was a dirty word. I
still remember the feeling.

Words are funny. In the academic world, "myth" retains its original
meaning, but in the rest of the country, the word firmly means some
story that is untrue.



Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because
it's simple.

I got started because my brother had a Lionel train.

In article ,
says...
On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:43:41 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:


Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.


I can remember my parents saying "ignorant" a lot when I was I child.
I didn't know what it meant then and thought it was a dirty word. I
still remember the feeling.

Words are funny. In the academic world, "myth" retains its original
meaning, but in the rest of the country, the word firmly means some
story that is untrue.

How about "theory"? That's a word with very different meanings
inside academia and out.


Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because
it's simple.

I got started because my brother had a Lionel train.

My father was an EE prof and had electrical junk around the house
to play with.

--
Keith

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 23:58:16 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:43:41 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:


Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.


I can remember my parents saying "ignorant" a lot when I was I child.
I didn't know what it meant then and thought it was a dirty word. I
still remember the feeling.

Words are funny. In the academic world, "myth" retains its original
meaning, but in the rest of the country, the word firmly means some
story that is untrue.



Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because
it's simple.

I got started because my brother had a Lionel train.

I wished I had one of those. Also, model rockets.
--
47 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 08:45:39 -0500, krw wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:43:41 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:


Please don't get PO'd at my use of the word ignorant. If you think about
it, no one can be a renaissance man nowadays, and we're mostly all
ignorant about more subjects than we're experts in.


I can remember my parents saying "ignorant" a lot when I was I child.
I didn't know what it meant then and thought it was a dirty word. I
still remember the feeling.

Words are funny. In the academic world, "myth" retains its original
meaning, but in the rest of the country, the word firmly means some
story that is untrue.

How about "theory"? That's a word with very different meanings
inside academia and out.


Is seems that I first got interested in electricity (and math) because
it's simple.

I got started because my brother had a Lionel train.

My father was an EE prof and had electrical junk around the house
to play with.

My grandmother, who I often stayed with, had a lot of lamp and
electrical parts around. Anyway, I've always had a rational idea of
the world, and a preference for things that make sense.

BTW, I'll probably never understand the [deleted] that most people
seem to be obsessed with. It seems to have no connection with the
world around us.
--
47 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."