"xanuda" writes:
Hi all. We are looking to replace our old furnace. We have had a few
estimates and now we are trying to decide between an 80% and 90%
efficient heaters and 1 stage / 2 stage / variable models. The price
difference between 80% and 90% seems to be about 600-800 for Trane.
The price difference between different stages is also several hundred
$$$. How do we make a decision whether it is worth money to go with a
more expansive model. I'm looking for a dummy-oriented advice as my
knowledge here is pretty mich zero

Hey Gene,

First, I'll pull this homeowner question into alt.home.repair and set
followups to it. I suppose you'll see why soon enough when some of
the regulars go into Lord of the Flies mode. Yes, it's odd that a
clearly hvac question is not welcome in such a named group, but what
can ya do?

First, where do ya live, that helps focus how much heating this
furnace is going to be doing. How long do you plan to stay in the
home is another factor, as it determines whether the payback period
for additional efficiency will every be enjoyed by you.

The best I can divine from a variety of resources as I was through
similar decisions, 2 stage and variable speed are mostly comfort
benefits. 2 stage is relatively simple--it's just that the gas valve
has two settings. You run mostly on the lower setting until it gets
damned cold or you're trying to heat the house from a set back
temperature. This prevents the furnace from short cycling, and gives
you less dips in temperature, may prolong the life of the heat
exchanger and blower. It doesn't seem to come at much risk of adding
to maintenance later as the mechanism seems to boil down to a gas
valve that has Off, low and high settings, and some control logic that
dictates when to kick it into high.

Variable speed seems to be contentious. It too is to afford you more
comfort and better ddistribution of heating and cooling by keeping air
cirulating in the house without having to have the noise and
electricity use of running a single speed fan full bore all the time.
Whether the energy savings translates into $ savings is subject to
some debate since some point out that variable speed motors are very
expensive and have a lot more stuff to break on them, while single
speed motors have a long history and are pretty simple and relatively
inexpensive. Others say variable speed is the cat's ass and makes a
huge comfort difference. Other benefits include that you can keep
your air moving and achieve better filtration as such, and supposedly
you get some added dehumidification benefits as a variable speed's
continuous air flow will keep things less humid in the AC season as
air is circulated over the cold coil in the periodcs the A/C is off.

80 vs 90%. Take a look at your gas bills. Try to divine how much you
use each winter for heating. Figure out how long it'd take to get
your money back if your gas usage was 12% lower for the heating
portion. Also factor in that for the installation they'll need to run
some PVC pipe to vent outside out house as the 90% won't use your
existing flue, but are so efficient they vent out PVC. There is some
concern that higher efficiency furnaces are less reliable and may cost
more in repairs down the road. I haven't yet determined if that's a
real concern or not myself. Finally, take your crystal ball and
divine whether you see current natural gas prices staying relatively
flat, or increasing in the future. This also plays into the packback
scenario.

All that said, I've also been told yo're better off energy wise with a
2-stage 80% than a 1 stage 90% at least in my situation, since the 2
stage will achieve comfort perhaps at a lower thermostat setting due
to the longer cycle and better heat distribution to the extremities of
your duct system that will result.

I'm sure I managed to utter some misconception or errors in all this
info that will be mercilessly shredded by folks less interested in
helping you and more interested in being able to be right by pointing
out something that's wrong, but I hope you found some of this helpful
in figuring out what's best for your situation.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

"Todd H." wrote in message ...

Suggest go away now

Far far away...

--

SVL

On 15 Sep 2006 23:58:04 -0500, (Todd H.) wrote:

"xanuda" writes:
Hi all. We are looking to replace our old furnace. We have had a few
estimates and now we are trying to decide between an 80% and 90%
efficient heaters and 1 stage / 2 stage / variable models. The price
difference between 80% and 90% seems to be about 600-800 for Trane.
The price difference between different stages is also several hundred
$$$. How do we make a decision whether it is worth money to go with a
more expansive model. I'm looking for a dummy-oriented advice as my
knowledge here is pretty mich zero

Hey Gene,

First, I'll pull this homeowner question into alt.home.repair and set
followups to it. I suppose you'll see why soon enough when some of
the regulars go into Lord of the Flies mode. Yes, it's odd that a
clearly hvac question is not welcome in such a named group, but what
can ya do?

Ya can go **** yourself, Todd.

I'm sure I managed to utter some misconception or errors in all this
info that will be mercilessly shredded by folks less interested in
helping you and more interested in being able to be right by pointing
out something that's wrong, but I hope you found some of this helpful
in figuring out what's best for your situation.

Sure, Todd - I'm sure your inane babble and 'misconception or
errors' were a great help to her in her quest to get even MORE ****ing
confused than she was before.

Now some poor soul is going to have to relieve her of all the
mis-information you just spewed out prior to trying to help her. She
is actually dumber than before, for having read your words.

Good job !!!!!!!

Snotrag.


Best Regards,

--
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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

writes:

Sure, Todd - I'm sure your inane babble and 'misconception or
errors' were a great help to her in her quest to get even MORE ****ing
confused than she was before.

Now some poor soul is going to have to relieve her of all the
mis-information you just spewed out prior to trying to help her. She
is actually dumber than before, for having read your words.

Good job !!!!!!!

Paul, Yer cute when you swear at the homeowners. You've got spunk.
I like that.

Alternative explanations to those strawman answers are welcome of
course. We can tell Gene to forget everything I wrote. I'm handing
you the conch. Please, won't you regale him with your treatise?

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:
Variable speed seems to be contentious. Other benefits include that you can keep
your air moving and achieve better filtration as such, and supposedly
you get some added dehumidification benefits as a variable speed's
continuous air flow will keep things less humid in the AC season as
air is circulated over the cold coil in the periodcs the A/C is off.

..

The advantage variable speed gives with regard to dehumidification has
nothing to do with air being circulated over the cold coils when the AC
is off. How can the coils be cold when the compressor isn't running?

Variable speed can reduce humidity during periods when it's humid and
it's not very hot. During those periods, the blower can run at low
speed, which results in the air dropping more in temp as it passes
through the evaporator, thereby condensing more water without cooling
the house down a lot.

Variable speed can reduce humidity during periods when it's humid and
it's not very hot. During those periods, the blower can run at low
speed, which results in the air dropping more in temp as it passes
through the evaporator, thereby condensing more water without cooling
the house down a lot.

It also requires a multi-speed compressor to realize the dehumidifying
benefit, with both the compressor and the fan at their lowest speed, it
is very effective, inexpensive and doesn't cool the house much.

Have I missed something, why is Todd being beaten up? His info in
variable speed 2 stage furnaces mirrors my experience. He seems to be
laying out the pros & cons fairly. I do think the comfort thing is
underrated, if that is unimportant why even live indoors?

"Eric in North TX" writes:

Have I missed something, why is Todd being beaten up?

This has less to do with reason and more to do with the very strange
dynamic of alt.hvac where the thread originated. If I had to guess
it's that I was a poster who was new to the group, a homeowner rather
than an hvac pro, and who has an engineering degree, all in an
environment hostile to all of the above. There are some good eggs in
that group though, and kudos to them.

I'm admittedly trying to get a handle on all these pros/cons myself
and just wanted to give Gene something to start with since the history
of that particular group netted a very low signal to noise ratio.

I appreciate the clarification on the dehumidification benefit and
what exactly is going on there.

The trouble with some of these questions appears to be that even among
folks who ostensibly know their craft, there seem to be a lot of
opinions on things that don't seem to match up, and figuring out if
you're getting advice from a critical thinker with experienc or
someone parroting marketing materials and junk science is difficult at
best.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/

Todd H. wrote:
snips about alt.hvac

"that particular group netted a very low signal to noise ratio...."


ROFLMAO!

Todd, you are a gem.
Jim