Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Answers will be appreciated.

More to follow.

i

Ignoramus2645 wrote:

Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Answers will be appreciated.

More to follow.

i

There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:18:25 GMT, Ignoramus2645
wrote:

Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Answers will be appreciated.

You have no ****ing clue.

Call an HVAC service company.

AND ****ING STOP CROSS-POSTING !!!!!




More to follow.

i

--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
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Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

In rec.crafts.metalworking CJT wrote:
Ignoramus2645 wrote:

Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Answers will be appreciated.

More to follow.

i

There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.

He's better at the guessing part. I suggest he wears a blue shirt
tomorrow, and white socks.

At least 90% of the time, you can tell if the capacitor is bad by
looking at it. The top will be bulged out and look like a dome, rather
than being flat. You are correct that it actually two capacitors in one
shell. Heat is what kills them, so chances are very good that is what
your problem is. Since they quit using PCBs in them, they do not last
worth crap. The fact that they are made in China or Mexico probably
doesn't help matters. The only good thing is that they actually cost
less than they did 30 years ago. BTW, if you replace this yourself, get
a 440 volt cap rather than the 370 it probably has. Probably about $1.50
more. For that matter, if you have a service company replace it, ask
that they put in a 440. They can and do fail also, but generally last
quite a bit longer than a 370 volt. Good luck Larry

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:20:53 GMT, CJT wrote:
There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.


Yea. Great idea. Here's the diagram:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/AC-Compressor/diagram.jpg

It is actually very straightforward.

i

Ignoramus2645 wrote:

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:20:53 GMT, CJT wrote:
There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.


Yea. Great idea. Here's the diagram:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/AC-Compressor/diagram.jpg

It is actually very straightforward.

i

It's also rather sad that the protective devices are "optional" or
"accessories".

Pete C.

According to Ignoramus2645 :
Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

That -- or the main motor itself.

Note that any air conditioning compressor *must* be allowed to
rest for a certain number of seconds (sometimes low minutes) before
power is re-applied. There is normally a timer which prevents
re-application of power until this time has elapsed. (The problem being
that the compressor cannot start in the face of the pressure
differential which existed while it was running.)

I had one such delay timer fail -- but it failed in the "never
try to start" mode, and I was able to swap in a similar unit to put the
system back in service myself.

Some air conditioner systems, at least, have a solenoid valve to
speed up the bleed-back and shorten the time before it can be restarted.

I *suspect* that what has happened is that the nearby lightning
strikes zapped the timer module, and re-applied power to the compressor
immediately after it stopped -- a condition under which it *can't*
re-start.

I have seen (where I used to work) large industrial air
conditioning units without such a delay working blow up and squirt Freon
out the door for about thirty seconds. I believe that a connecting rod
in the pump failed in that case. I was in my car in the parking lot
relaxing during lunch when I saw it happen. Luckily, there were two
other units which survived and kept running, so we were not baked out
of our labs.

Anyway -- I suspect physical damage to the compressor, rather
than something as simple as a failed capacitor. And from your
description, it sounds as though the motor is cap-start/cap-run. The
motor *might* have developed a short on the capacitor-fed winding during
the attempted too-soon restart.

I also suspect that both sections of the capacitor are of
similar values, so you could try substituting the other section in for a
quick test.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

I don't think that they would have anything connected to the can
at these voltages, so there should be a common terminal.

Do you have a capacitance meter to try on the capacitor?

Answers will be appreciated.

You have some guesses, at least. I'm afraid that you will need
a new compressor unit, and a professional to replace it, unless you have
access to the refrigerant as well as having a charging manifold. (Given
your questions, I suspect that you don't have the license to purchase
the refrigerant. -- Neither do I, which is a real pain given the tight
controls on the selling of Freon these days.)

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Ignoramus2645 :
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:20:53 GMT, CJT wrote:
There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.


Yea. Great idea. Here's the diagram:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/AC-Compressor/diagram.jpg

It is actually very straightforward.

And -- you can see the time delay module under the varnish (or
whatever) at the bottom right of the diagram -- in series with the
contactor coil, and an optional switch in which the high pressure side
of the refrigerant pump can prevent start even if the timer has timed
out. (But -- that is described as "optional", and the delay timer (as
much as I can make out under the varnish) is not described as
"optional", but it *is* described as "accessory" -- so I suspect that
you have two failures -- the compressor, and the delay timer which
induced the compressor failure, and which will induce it again if not
replaced when the compressor is replaced.

It looks as though there is only one set of contacts in the
contactor, and the other set of terminals serves simply as a terminal
strip to carry the other side of the 240 VAC over without switching it.

This is *not* a good time of the year to have an air conditioner
fail -- and also not a good time to try to get a licensed professional
out to work on it.

You might save one round trip (probably with significant delays)
if you warn them ahead of time that the compressor is likely dead. If
you can, dig up the numbers from the compressor case -- or if you can't
get to that, at least the model number of the overall device.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Ignoramus2645 writes:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

Values should be on the old capacitor.

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Common terminal. The can is (unless defective) isolated.

One of your terminals may be shorted to the (grounded) can, thus causing
your circuit breaker overload.

Costs about $10 or $20 at http://www.grainger.com/ to get a replacement.
Also all over eBay.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:18:25 GMT, Ignoramus2645
wrote:

Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

If there is a short in the cap, that's one place there won't be any
visible sparking and maybe nothing visible.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

It says what it is on the can. If not, I guess a diagram, and if not,
maybe the AC supply house knows. If you know the value you want you
might get it cheaper at an electronics supply house, but they might
not even sell one that big. Never tried.

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of

Probably.

them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

I doubt it.

If it's the cap, you may have gotten off cheap. Good for you.

Answers will be appreciated.

More to follow.

i

mm writes:

If you know the value you want you
might get it cheaper at an electronics supply house, but they might
not even sell one that big. Never tried.

AC electrolytic capacitors of this type are not sold by electronics
distribution.

On 3 Aug 2006 04:00:15 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to Ignoramus2645 :
Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

That -- or the main motor itself.

Note that any air conditioning compressor *must* be allowed to
rest for a certain number of seconds (sometimes low minutes) before
power is re-applied. There is normally a timer which prevents
re-application of power until this time has elapsed. (The problem being
that the compressor cannot start in the face of the pressure
differential which existed while it was running.)

Makes sense.

I had one such delay timer fail -- but it failed in the "never
try to start" mode, and I was able to swap in a similar unit to put the
system back in service myself.

Does not seem to be the case for me (the contactor is energized).

Some air conditioner systems, at least, have a solenoid valve to
speed up the bleed-back and shorten the time before it can be restarted.

I *suspect* that what has happened is that the nearby lightning
strikes zapped the timer module, and re-applied power to the compressor
immediately after it stopped -- a condition under which it *can't*
re-start.

I have seen (where I used to work) large industrial air
conditioning units without such a delay working blow up and squirt Freon
out the door for about thirty seconds. I believe that a connecting rod
in the pump failed in that case. I was in my car in the parking lot
relaxing during lunch when I saw it happen. Luckily, there were two
other units which survived and kept running, so we were not baked out
of our labs.

Anyway -- I suspect physical damage to the compressor, rather
than something as simple as a failed capacitor. And from your
description, it sounds as though the motor is cap-start/cap-run. The
motor *might* have developed a short on the capacitor-fed winding during
the attempted too-soon restart.

That could be. I did a few more measurements. I will post a summary
soon.

I also suspect that both sections of the capacitor are of
similar values, so you could try substituting the other section in for a
quick test.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

I don't think that they would have anything connected to the can
at these voltages, so there should be a common terminal.

That's correct, I saw a diagram (and posted it).

Do you have a capacitance meter to try on the capacitor?

Sure.

Answers will be appreciated.

You have some guesses, at least. I'm afraid that you will need
a new compressor unit, and a professional to replace it, unless you have
access to the refrigerant as well as having a charging manifold. (Given
your questions, I suspect that you don't have the license to purchase
the refrigerant. -- Neither do I, which is a real pain given the tight
controls on the selling of Freon these days.)

I am afraid that it is the case, as well (see my UPDATE #2 that I am
about to post).

i

On 3 Aug 2006 04:13:49 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to Ignoramus2645 :
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:20:53 GMT, CJT wrote:
There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.


Yea. Great idea. Here's the diagram:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/AC-Compressor/diagram.jpg

It is actually very straightforward.

And -- you can see the time delay module under the varnish (or
whatever) at the bottom right of the diagram -- in series with the
contactor coil, and an optional switch in which the high pressure side
of the refrigerant pump can prevent start even if the timer has timed
out. (But -- that is described as "optional", and the delay timer (as
much as I can make out under the varnish) is not described as
"optional", but it *is* described as "accessory" -- so I suspect that
you have two failures -- the compressor, and the delay timer which
induced the compressor failure, and which will induce it again if not
replaced when the compressor is replaced.

It looks as though there is only one set of contacts in the
contactor, and the other set of terminals serves simply as a terminal
strip to carry the other side of the 240 VAC over without switching it.

This is *not* a good time of the year to have an air conditioner
fail -- and also not a good time to try to get a licensed professional
out to work on it.

You might save one round trip (probably with significant delays)
if you warn them ahead of time that the compressor is likely dead. If
you can, dig up the numbers from the compressor case -- or if you can't
get to that, at least the model number of the overall device.

I am now convinced that it is true, the compressor unit is dead. These
guys that service my equipment are in my town, a trip should not be
too much for them, and also, after looking at the outside unit, I
think that I want something better.

i

Notice in series with the "C" terminal on the Compressor, there is an
overload device. This is a self reseting current limit that most likely
is part of the plug that connects to the C, S, and R terminals of the
compressor (these stand for Common, Start and Run). Or it is a separate
device but in thermal contact with the compressor can. Klicks-on is a
Texas Instumentcompany that makes these. The diagram indicates "if
used" but I believe it has to be there to protect the compressor motor
in the case where it has a locked rotor from differential pressure, and
it does not have enough starting torque.
Pull the C,S, and R plug, and perform a resistance measurement between
C and S and C and R. These should be less then 10 ohm measurements.
SteveK
Ignoramus2645 wrote:
On 3 Aug 2006 04:13:49 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to Ignoramus2645 :
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:20:53 GMT, CJT wrote:
There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.


Yea. Great idea. Here's the diagram:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/AC-Compressor/diagram.jpg

It is actually very straightforward.

And -- you can see the time delay module under the varnish (or
whatever) at the bottom right of the diagram -- in series with the
contactor coil, and an optional switch in which the high pressure side
of the refrigerant pump can prevent start even if the timer has timed
out. (But -- that is described as "optional", and the delay timer (as
much as I can make out under the varnish) is not described as
"optional", but it *is* described as "accessory" -- so I suspect that
you have two failures -- the compressor, and the delay timer which
induced the compressor failure, and which will induce it again if not
replaced when the compressor is replaced.

It looks as though there is only one set of contacts in the
contactor, and the other set of terminals serves simply as a terminal
strip to carry the other side of the 240 VAC over without switching it.

This is *not* a good time of the year to have an air conditioner
fail -- and also not a good time to try to get a licensed professional
out to work on it.

You might save one round trip (probably with significant delays)
if you warn them ahead of time that the compressor is likely dead. If
you can, dig up the numbers from the compressor case -- or if you can't
get to that, at least the model number of the overall device.

I am now convinced that it is true, the compressor unit is dead. These
guys that service my equipment are in my town, a trip should not be
too much for them, and also, after looking at the outside unit, I
think that I want something better.

i

I am now convinced that it is true, the compressor unit is dead. These
guys that service my equipment are in my town, a trip should not be
too much for them, and also, after looking at the outside unit, I
think that I want something better.

Now that we know that what you have is *probably* a Goodman/Janitrol, or an
Intertherm, fill us in on a few more details... Is it a house or a trailer??
Is it gas heat?? or electric?? The answers will determine what
recommendations you will get. While you are thinking about replacement,
check this link for a little food for thought.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

Your name says it all!!! Call a pro.
Muff


"Ignoramus2645" wrote in message
...
Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Answers will be appreciated.

More to follow.

i

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:49:29 -0500, Noon-Air wrote:


I am now convinced that it is true, the compressor unit is dead. These
guys that service my equipment are in my town, a trip should not be
too much for them, and also, after looking at the outside unit, I
think that I want something better.

Now that we know that what you have is *probably* a Goodman/Janitrol, or an

It is a "Tempstar".

Intertherm, fill us in on a few more details... Is it a house or a trailer??
Is it gas heat?? or electric?? The answers will determine what
recommendations you will get. While you are thinking about replacement,
check this link for a little food for thought.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

It is a house, about 5k square feet if I count the finished
basement. Gas heat. I am going to read that link now, thanks.

i

Richard J Kinch wrote:

mm writes:


If you know the value you want you
might get it cheaper at an electronics supply house, but they might
not even sell one that big. Never tried.


AC electrolytic capacitors of this type are not sold by electronics
distribution.

Um, no.

http://www.alliedelec.com/Catalog/In...T&DEPTH=2&LVL=

Trace the wire from the T2 contactor to the C terminal of the
compressor. I just can't believe there is not a overload device sized
for the continuous motor current of your AC. If I recall the schematic
shows this as a black wire.
I see you had a different posting on the same subject where your
circuit panel breaker was tripping. I would isolate where the fault to
ground is. It may be the compressor, but you can unplug the C-S-R and
see if the breaker stops tripping. If so, the compressor either has
shorted internally to ground, or the motor winding melted and are
shorting out.
SteveK
Ignoramus1064 wrote:
On 3 Aug 2006 01:24:07 -0700, stevek wrote:
Notice in series with the "C" terminal on the Compressor, there is an
overload device. This is a self reseting current limit that most likely
is part of the plug that connects to the C, S, and R terminals of the
compressor (these stand for Common, Start and Run). Or it is a separate
device but in thermal contact with the compressor can. Klicks-on is a
Texas Instumentcompany that makes these. The diagram indicates "if
used" but I believe it has to be there to protect the compressor motor
in the case where it has a locked rotor from differential pressure, and
it does not have enough starting torque.
Pull the C,S, and R plug, and perform a resistance measurement between
C and S and C and R. These should be less then 10 ohm measurements.

Steve, mine does not look like a plug, more like three terminals.

I am not sure if there is an overload.

i

SteveK
Ignoramus2645 wrote:
On 3 Aug 2006 04:13:49 GMT, DoN. Nichols wrote:
According to Ignoramus2645 :
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:20:53 GMT, CJT wrote:
There ought to be a diagram somewhere, and some markings on the
capacitor, that will tell you what you need to know. Anything else
is just guessing.


Yea. Great idea. Here's the diagram:

http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/AC-Compressor/diagram.jpg

It is actually very straightforward.

And -- you can see the time delay module under the varnish (or
whatever) at the bottom right of the diagram -- in series with the
contactor coil, and an optional switch in which the high pressure side
of the refrigerant pump can prevent start even if the timer has timed
out. (But -- that is described as "optional", and the delay timer (as
much as I can make out under the varnish) is not described as
"optional", but it *is* described as "accessory" -- so I suspect that
you have two failures -- the compressor, and the delay timer which
induced the compressor failure, and which will induce it again if not
replaced when the compressor is replaced.

It looks as though there is only one set of contacts in the
contactor, and the other set of terminals serves simply as a terminal
strip to carry the other side of the 240 VAC over without switching it.

This is *not* a good time of the year to have an air conditioner
fail -- and also not a good time to try to get a licensed professional
out to work on it.

You might save one round trip (probably with significant delays)
if you warn them ahead of time that the compressor is likely dead. If
you can, dig up the numbers from the compressor case -- or if you can't
get to that, at least the model number of the overall device.

I am now convinced that it is true, the compressor unit is dead. These
guys that service my equipment are in my town, a trip should not be
too much for them, and also, after looking at the outside unit, I
think that I want something better.

i

Jim Stewart writes:

AC electrolytic capacitors of this type are not sold by electronics
distribution.

Um, no.

I should have said, "typically". You won't find them at Mouser or Digi-
Key.

Noon-Air writes:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

Typical Al Gore EPA baloney. This only applies to certain "developed
nations"; the rest of the world will make more R-22 than we ever did or
would have. Just like has happened with R-12. Look what's happened to the
ozone since!

Investment tip: Get the EPA license (http://www.epatest.com/) and stockpile
R-22. The people that did this in the early 1990s with R-12 bought it at
$1/lb and sold it for $50/lb.

"stevek" wrote in message oups.com...
Trace the wire from the T2 contactor to the C terminal of the
compressor. I just can't believe there is not a overload device sized
for the continuous motor current of your AC. If I recall the schematic
shows this as a black wire.



They are thermallly protected internally for the most part with this type compressors.
If one goes off on the overload its not going to reset until the compressor cools down period.



I see you had a different posting on the same subject where your
circuit panel breaker was tripping. I would isolate where the fault to
ground is. It may be the compressor, but you can unplug the C-S-R and
see if the breaker stops tripping. If so, the compressor either has
shorted internally to ground, or the motor winding melted and are
shorting out.
SteveK



Sounds like a compressor burn-out.(Dead short) But that would have obvious when
checking the compressor terminals (wires removed) resistance.

A compressor locked rotor does not trip circuit breakers right away
if at all. Normally the compressor overload trips first. Or fuses at the disconnect.
You can find the LRA on the top of the compressor. (3 1/2 ton a/c about 95amps)


GL
Dan



Just for reference:

A 15 or 20 amp breaker can usually take being tripped several times

A 30 - 50 amp breaker can not take the heat when it trips repeatedly.
Yours should be replaced when the problem is corrected. A weak
breaker might not cause problems until hot weather.

A 100 amp circuit breaker would be lucky to trip one time without damage.

According to Noon-Air :


I am now convinced that it is true, the compressor unit is dead. These
guys that service my equipment are in my town, a trip should not be
too much for them, and also, after looking at the outside unit, I
think that I want something better.

Now that we know that what you have is *probably* a Goodman/Janitrol, or an
Intertherm, fill us in on a few more details... Is it a house or a trailer??
Is it gas heat?? or electric?? The answers will determine what
recommendations you will get. While you are thinking about replacement,
check this link for a little food for thought.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

Hmm ... are there substitutes for R-22 (HCFC-22 in their list)?

If not -- are there satisfactory refrigerants for the purpose
with a change of compressor and A-coil?

If not -- what will we do with global warming?

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:50:40 -0500, Richard J Kinch wrote:

Noon-Air writes:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

Typical Al Gore EPA baloney. This only applies to certain "developed
nations"; the rest of the world will make more R-22 than we ever did or
would have. Just like has happened with R-12. Look what's happened to the
ozone since!


Why would they do that? the "rest of the world" aren't manufacturing heat
pumps to use R-22 any more.


Mark Rand
RTFM

wrote:


I see the great AC tech has chimed in with his usual $.0000000002 worth

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 03:18:25 GMT, Ignoramus2645
wrote:


Some new developments.

1. The main 24VAC coil contactor is fine, I must have mis-measured
something.

2. I understand why there are three terminals on the capacitor. There
are really two capacitors in one "can". They share a common. One
capacitor is for fan and another is for the main compressor motor.

3. If I disconnect one lead to the capacitor (a fat blue lead), then,
if my wife resets the breaker, the cooling fan starts up just fine and
I hear humming noise from the motor. I did not let that continue for
much more than 2 seconds.

My conclusion is that most likely, the capacitor for the main motor is
shot.

Q U E S T I O N S:

1. Anyone know how to calculate required capacitance by "rated amps"
of the motor? (I realize that motors are all different, but I need
some way to guesstimate)

2. Do the two coexisting caps share a common terminal, or does one of
them have one contact on top and another being the (grounded) can?

Answers will be appreciated.


You have no ****ing clue.

Call an HVAC service company.

AND ****ING STOP CROSS-POSTING !!!!!




More to follow.

i

Mark Rand writes:

Why would they do that? the "rest of the world" aren't manufacturing heat
pumps to use R-22 any more.

That's a ridiculous assertion. Look at the biggest HVAC brand in China,
Haier. Everything in their catalog is R-22.

China is in the midst of a huge retrofit to air conditioned housing in the
cities. All the old Stalinesque high-rises are now covered with R-22 mini-
splits.

R-22 has superior physical and economical properties to any alternative.
No one is going to abandon it except for political reasons. And in the
third world, physics and economy still beat nutty environmentalist
politics.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:50:40 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Noon-Air writes:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/hcfc.html

Typical Al Gore EPA baloney.

It's fun to blame Al Gore, I'm sure, but the Republicans have ruled
the EPA for 5 1/2 years now.

This only applies to certain "developed
nations";

That's what it says.

the rest of the world will make more R-22 than we ever did or
would have.

So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.

I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.

If other countries, don't accept the Montreal Protocols, that's the
way it is.

Just like has happened with R-12. Look what's happened to the
ozone since!

Investment tip: Get the EPA license (http://www.epatest.com/) and stockpile
R-22. The people that did this in the early 1990s with R-12 bought it at
$1/lb and sold it for $50/lb.

mm writes:

So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.

I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.

The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US
government to forcibly create a completely artificial shortage (in the
US only) of an economically very valuable substance. Supposedly this is
to lower emissions into the atmosphere, but even if you grant the
dubious desirability of that goal, the artificial shortage is absurd
since the third world has no such restriction and has every incentive to
outproduce us and to wildly out-emit anything the 1st world ever did
with this substance, as it already is doing today.

Furthermore, there will be no shortage in the US: R-22 will be available
forever under this regime, even after 2020, just like the banned R-12,
being that the *manufacture in the US* (not the possession, trading, or
stockpiling) is what the G-men with guns will be shooting at, such that
the price will skyrocket and bootlegging will be richly profitable.

This is entirely a repeat of R-12 in the early 1990s, which played out
exactly this way on a faster phase-out schedule.

Remember, a $50 drum of R-12 bought in 1990 turned into a $1500 gem in a
matter of 5 years. You may want to consider an EPA license and a
stockpile of R-22 in your investment portfolio.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
mm writes:


So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.

I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.


The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US
government to forcibly create a completely artificial shortage (in the
US only) of an economically very valuable substance.

Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
their snout in the trough. Their patents had
expired on the 'bad' freon. Since the 'good' freon
has fresh patents and sells for a lot more than
the 'bad' they stand to make a buttload of money
off the deal.

Jim Stewart writes:

Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
their snout in the trough. Their patents had
expired on the 'bad' freon.

Small change compared to what the trade stands to gain. Much higher
pressures for the new stuff inevitably makes it less efficient, harder to
install, and more frequent to fail, in comparison to what would have been
the case with the old stuff. This is thermodynamic certainty. Sure it can
work, and tomorrow's models may even work better than today's models, but
it just cannot ever work as well as the more ideal R-22 at lower pressures.
Everybody in the biz gains, the consumer loses.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message .. .
Richard J Kinch wrote:
mm writes:


So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.

I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.


The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US government to forcibly create a completely artificial
shortage (in the US only) of an economically very valuable substance.

Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
their snout in the trough. Their patents had
expired on the 'bad' freon. Since the 'good' freon
has fresh patents and sells for a lot more than
the 'bad' they stand to make a buttload of money
off the deal.


Freon is just a name Dow patent and not whats actually in the jug.

Freon is like LPG - you get what is handy and useful. Propane in the winter
butane in the summer or a mixture all year round or a mix of this and that with
enough Propane to give the boost. Once there were Propane dealers - now only LPG.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member
http://lufkinced.com/



Danny G. wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message .. .

Richard J Kinch wrote:

mm writes:



So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.

I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.


The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US government to forcibly create a completely artificial
shortage (in the US only) of an economically very valuable substance.

Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
their snout in the trough. Their patents had
expired on the 'bad' freon. Since the 'good' freon
has fresh patents and sells for a lot more than
the 'bad' they stand to make a buttload of money
off the deal.



Freon is just a name Dow patent and not whats actually in the jug.








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On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:43:24 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

R-22 has superior physical and economical properties to any alternative.

Except R-290. Still used in Europe, too.

--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 15:17:44 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Remember, a $50 drum of R-12 bought in 1990

Where? I was paying $70 for 30 lb disposable tanks in 1990,
OTC wholesale, in Caalifornia. It was $50 for 30 lb back about
1985-86.

--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:54:13 GMT, "Danny G."
wrote:


"Jim Stewart" wrote in message .. .
Richard J Kinch wrote:
mm writes:


So what's your point. They won't be selling it here, except as the
schedule provides.

I don't think you read the chart very carefully. It clearly states
that R-22 will be available in the US for ACs made before 2010. And
that that will be its status until 2020, after which it won't be
legally available IN THE US.


The point is simply that liberal environmentalists have gotten the US government to forcibly create a completely artificial
shortage (in the US only) of an economically very valuable substance.

Not to mention the fact that Dow allegedly had
their snout in the trough. Their patents had
expired on the 'bad' freon. Since the 'good' freon
has fresh patents and sells for a lot more than
the 'bad' they stand to make a buttload of money
off the deal.


Freon is just a name Dow patent and not whats actually in the jug.

Nothing is freon this planet anyway.

--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

On 3 Aug 2006 04:00:15 GMT, (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Note that any air conditioning compressor *must* be allowed to
rest for a certain number of seconds (sometimes low minutes) before
power is re-applied.


Funny, most 3 phase units I've seen have high starting torque.
Some units have shutoff solenoids, and start under headpresure,
even after long off-periods.

But since this is crossposted to alt.home.repair, I can see why the
presumption is made, since you likely only deal with residential
units.

--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

On 3 Aug 2006 21:42:23 GMT, (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Hmm ... are there substitutes for R-22

http://www.refrigerants.com/MSDS/nri-R290.pdf

--
-john
wide-open at throttle dot info

According to ~^Johnny^~ :
On 3 Aug 2006 04:00:15 GMT, (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Note that any air conditioning compressor *must* be allowed to
rest for a certain number of seconds (sometimes low minutes) before
power is re-applied.


Funny, most 3 phase units I've seen have high starting torque.
Some units have shutoff solenoids, and start under headpresure,
even after long off-periods.

Well ... I've observed a failure from a power glitch in an
industrial unit (out where I worked before I retired). I was sitting
out in my car relaxing at lunchtime, and I heard a loud whooshing sound,
and saw a dense white cloud billowing out of the room which had the air
conditioner compressors, along with other HVAC stuff for the building.

It turns out that it blew a hole in the compressor's crankcase.
It apparently tried to start with liquid in at least one cylinder, and
the three phase motor *did* have plenty of starting torque -- too much
in terms of the health of the multi-cylinder compressor.

Luckly, there were two other units in the same room which did
survive, so we were not baked out of the building until repairs could be
performed.

But since this is crossposted to alt.home.repair, I can see why the
presumption is made, since you likely only deal with residential
units.

Well ... I'm the one you quoted, and I was posting from
rec.crafts.metalworking instead. Still not as an expert on
refrigeration systems, but with a bit of mechanical knowledge at least.

And -- if this system had had an electronic time delay on the
restart as my home system does, it would have survived, and would not
dumped a large quantity of whatever refrigerant it happened to use.
This was before the changing regulations forced us to abandon the Halon
(another CFC) fire control system in our large computer room and replace
it with dry-pipe water fire extinguishers.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

~^Johnny^~ writes:

R-22 has superior physical and economical properties to any alternative.

Except R-290. Still used in Europe, too.

Well, yes, but I don't mean THAT kind of alternative. I mean like R-134a
or Puron.