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#1
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Few very basic Electrical questions
"SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! My breakers don't match my box. But if it bothers you, change them. 2. I had an electrician once run an extra outlet but in looking a few years later I see that he ran 14/2 cable after attaching this to 12/2 running off a 20 amp breaker. This line either powers a treadmill (runs on a "115 vac dedicated 20 amp {15 amp] circuit") or a iron. The receptacle is 15amp which I believe is fine with either, but should I swap the cable to 12/2 for safety? Yes, the cable has to match the breaker. If running a new cable is difficult, changing the breaker might be better. 3. I also have similar to question two above (14/2, connected to 12/2) going to a GPF in a garage that the same guy did. Do they make a 20 amp GPF and should I switch the cable and the receptacle in this instance too? I will guess that a GPF is a GFCI? It is fine to have 15a outlets on a 20a circuit, as long as there are more than one outlet. Yes, they make 20a GFCI outlets, but unless you expect to use a 20a plug, it is unnecessary. 4. Can you run a series of five 15 amp receptacles for a workbench in an unfinished basement running on 12/2 on a 20 amp GPF breaker? Sure. |
#2
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Few very basic Electrical questions
wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. |
#3
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker. |
#4
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Few very basic Electrical questions
wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker. That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset every electronic device in the house. |
#5
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Few very basic Electrical questions
wrote in message oups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker. That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset every electronic device in the house. It only gets worse. First, you claimed to a newbie concerned about safety that most people would not turn off the main breaker when replacing a breaker. I believe that is bogus, as most people, myself included would. And now you suggesting that replacing breakers without turning off the power is comparable to unplugging an iron? Geez, have you ever changed a breaker? You switch it off, confirm there is no power to the wire, pull it out, disconnect the wire, connect the wire to the new breaker, make sure the new breaker is open, shove the new breaker in. It is a hair more complicated than unplugging an iron, but neither more dangerous nor more difficult. Even if you forget to switch it off, it still should be perfectly safe since you don't touch the wire until the breaker is out of the box; even then it is with a presumably insulated screwdriver. You should not come within 3" of a live wire, so where do you have a problem? And even if by some bizarre accident, worst came to worst, unless you are working barefoot standing in salt water... Do you wear rubber gloves when you do it, just to be sure? Stand on glass jars? Have one hand behind your back? Maybe pull the meter? Geez. |
#6
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Few very basic Electrical questions
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#7
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Toller wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker. That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset every electronic device in the house. It only gets worse. First, you claimed to a newbie concerned about safety that most people would not turn off the main breaker when replacing a breaker. I believe that is bogus, as most people, myself included would. And now you suggesting that replacing breakers without turning off the power is comparable to unplugging an iron? Geez, have you ever changed a breaker? You switch it off, confirm there is no power to the wire, pull it out, disconnect the wire, connect the wire to the new breaker, make sure the new breaker is open, shove the new breaker in. It is a hair more complicated than unplugging an iron, but neither more dangerous nor more difficult. Even if you forget to switch it off, it still should be perfectly safe since you don't touch the wire until the breaker is out of the box; even then it is with a presumably insulated screwdriver. You should not come within 3" of a live wire, so where do you have a problem? And even if by some bizarre accident, worst came to worst, unless you are working barefoot standing in salt water... Do you wear rubber gloves when you do it, just to be sure? Stand on glass jars? Have one hand behind your back? Maybe pull the meter? Geez. Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. Pete C. |
#9
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Few very basic Electrical questions
"Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message m... While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without throwing the mains off. Right. But no one sugested that. |
#10
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Few very basic Electrical questions
"Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message m... While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without throwing the mains off. I've worked bare-handed on 345kv lines but I sure as h wouldn't recommend it to the in-experienced. BTW, I tend to believe in Murphy's law and when I've done work on panels I shut the main off. But, at least at transmission voltages, you (usually) have enough advanced warning that you're getting too close before anything bad happens. Nothing like a low current streamer off the elbow to remind you....... |
#11
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Few very basic Electrical questions
While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to a
NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without throwing the mains off. I've worked bare-handed on 345kv lines but I sure as h wouldn't recommend it to the in-experienced. BTW, I tend to believe in Murphy's law and when I've done work on panels I shut the main off. "Toller" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker. That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset every electronic device in the house. It only gets worse. First, you claimed to a newbie concerned about safety that most people would not turn off the main breaker when replacing a breaker. I believe that is bogus, as most people, myself included would. And now you suggesting that replacing breakers without turning off the power is comparable to unplugging an iron? Geez, have you ever changed a breaker? You switch it off, confirm there is no power to the wire, pull it out, disconnect the wire, connect the wire to the new breaker, make sure the new breaker is open, shove the new breaker in. It is a hair more complicated than unplugging an iron, but neither more dangerous nor more difficult. Even if you forget to switch it off, it still should be perfectly safe since you don't touch the wire until the breaker is out of the box; even then it is with a presumably insulated screwdriver. You should not come within 3" of a live wire, so where do you have a problem? And even if by some bizarre accident, worst came to worst, unless you are working barefoot standing in salt water... Do you wear rubber gloves when you do it, just to be sure? Stand on glass jars? Have one hand behind your back? Maybe pull the meter? Geez. |
#12
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Few very basic Electrical questions
With all due respect -- since your initial response was to an obvious newbie
you were in effect suggesting it. I prefer to respond VERY cautiously to someone who has just bought a book at K-mart on BASIC home wiring. "Toller" wrote in message ... "Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message m... While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without throwing the mains off. Right. But no one sugested that. |
#13
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Elbow -- only if it's outside the conductive suite. Take the goves and hood
off and you'll get em off the finger tips, nose, ears, etc. As you get closer you'll hear the corona off of the line and hardware. "Bob" wrote in message . .. "Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message m... While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without throwing the mains off. I've worked bare-handed on 345kv lines but I sure as h wouldn't recommend it to the in-experienced. BTW, I tend to believe in Murphy's law and when I've done work on panels I shut the main off. But, at least at transmission voltages, you (usually) have enough advanced warning that you're getting too close before anything bad happens. Nothing like a low current streamer off the elbow to remind you....... |
#14
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Few very basic Electrical questions
wrote:
Pete C. wrote: wrote: Toller wrote: wrote in message ups.com... Toller wrote: "SMF" wrote in message news Hi, I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic questions I still have: 1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and I heard that they should) Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without testing it first! You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do you even make the claim that most people do it? English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I recommended that. I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the main breaker so I expect it is the common practice. Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker. Well, you're seriously wrong. I've done my own electrical work for years and have worked on electrical projects with numerous other people, both residential and commercial and I've yet to run into anyone who shuts off the main when changing branch circuit breakers, including removing / installing bolt on breakers (Insulated nut driver and gloves of course). The snap in breakers that are the norm in residential and many commercial installations are specifically designed to be easy to remove and install on a live bus. Pete C. Well, the OP, who's an obvious novice, doesn't have to listen to any of us. He can just do a simple google search for "replacing circuit breaker". There are plenty of websites with info. He can see what they recommend doing. And I'm sure he'll find that virtually every one of them has turning off the main breaker as the first step. Then he can decide what he thinks most people would do and make his own choice. That wasn't the point, my response was to you very incorrect "And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker". I have no doubt that any DIY home wiring book or online equivalent has a lawyer mandated "turn off the main breaker" warning regardless of the validity of such. I seriously doubt any lawyer has ever changed a circuit breaker either. Pete C. |
#15
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Pete C. wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#16
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Few very basic Electrical questions
"J. Clarke" wrote:
Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands. Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not. Pete C. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#17
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Pete C. wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands. So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite sufficient. Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Are you really this ignorant? Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them. Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not. I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#18
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Few very basic Electrical questions
"J. Clarke" wrote:
Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands. So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite sufficient. Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact. Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Are you really this ignorant? Apparently you are. Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them. Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes. If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not. I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends. Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do residential because they aren't good enough for commercial. Pete C. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#19
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Pete C. wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands. So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite sufficient. Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact. Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Are you really this ignorant? Apparently you are. Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them. Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes. If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not. I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends. Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do residential because they aren't good enough for commercial. If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know who to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin Award. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#20
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Few very basic Electrical questions
"J. Clarke" wrote:
Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands. So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite sufficient. Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact. Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Are you really this ignorant? Apparently you are. Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them. Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes. If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not. I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends. Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do residential because they aren't good enough for commercial. If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know who to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin Award. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you won't get a single affirmative answer. Do you also turn off the main breaker when changing a light bulb? Or do you call an electrician to change them for you because you're afraid? Pete C. |
#21
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Pete C. wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: Pete C. wrote: snipped Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection. You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure connection just like a plug. All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household items as well. With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp breaker. With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant. With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than 120. First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands. So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite sufficient. Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact. Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts. Are you really this ignorant? Apparently you are. Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging across for 240V isn't one of them. Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes. If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool. If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the same. If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is irresponsible in the extreme. I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person that did. You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the population. I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not. I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends. Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do residential because they aren't good enough for commercial. If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know who to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin Award. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you won't get a single affirmative answer. Do you also turn off the main breaker when changing a light bulb? Not an analogous situation in _any_ sense. -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#22
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Few very basic Electrical questions
Pete C. wrote:
Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you won't get a single affirmative answer. I'm a licensed master electrician in two States with 30 years experience, doing mostly large commercial and industrial. I supervise 10 to 20 experienced journeyman electrician's. I can assure you that I de-energize _all_ electric equipment when possible. I encourage all electrician's on my crew to de-energize all equipment, use PPE, and lockout/tagout. If it is an inconvenience for the customer, we will schedule a shutdown. Sure, electrician's work stuff hot, but not without assessing the hazards, taking precautions, using PPE, having people around (and who stay far enough away) who are capable of rendering assistance should something happen, etc. I do not permit inexperienced electrician's to work anything hot, period. In this newsgroup, with mostly inexperienced people doing DIY, IMHO it is irresponsible to tell folks to work _anything_ hot. Anyone who has done any amount of electric work knows that a lot of work is done hot without PPE; it's just the nature of the beast. However, I can tell you plenty of horror stories about how electrician's and others have been seriously injured working electric equipment hot. Part of being qualified to do electric work is being aware of the _hazards_ that exist. I personally am amazed at the number of people who are aware of shock/electrocution hazards, yet have no idea that there is also an explosion hazard. One thing is for sure, should one make the personal decision to work electric equipment while it's energized, should an accident happen, the _first_ thing that that person is going to hear from someone ( _IF_ he/she is still alive and _IF_ he/she can still hear or see) is:' You should have de-energized that equipment." |
#23
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Few very basic Electrical questions
volts500 wrote:
Pete C. wrote: Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you won't get a single affirmative answer. I'm a licensed master electrician in two States with 30 years experience, doing mostly large commercial and industrial. I supervise 10 to 20 experienced journeyman electrician's. I can assure you that I de-energize _all_ electric equipment when possible. I encourage all electrician's on my crew to de-energize all equipment, use PPE, and lockout/tagout. If it is an inconvenience for the customer, we will schedule a shutdown. Sure, electrician's work stuff hot, but not without assessing the hazards, taking precautions, using PPE, having people around (and who stay far enough away) who are capable of rendering assistance should something happen, etc. I do not permit inexperienced electrician's to work anything hot, period. In this newsgroup, with mostly inexperienced people doing DIY, IMHO it is irresponsible to tell folks to work _anything_ hot. Anyone who has done any amount of electric work knows that a lot of work is done hot without PPE; it's just the nature of the beast. However, I can tell you plenty of horror stories about how electrician's and others have been seriously injured working electric equipment hot. Part of being qualified to do electric work is being aware of the _hazards_ that exist. I personally am amazed at the number of people who are aware of shock/electrocution hazards, yet have no idea that there is also an explosion hazard. One thing is for sure, should one make the personal decision to work electric equipment while it's energized, should an accident happen, the _first_ thing that that person is going to hear from someone ( _IF_ he/she is still alive and _IF_ he/she can still hear or see) is:' You should have de-energized that equipment." Indeed the LO/TO and PPE are appropriate in an industrial / commercial environment, however do you or would you ever turn off the main breaker to replace a branch circuit breaker of the snap-in variety in a residential panel (barring physical damage to the breaker being removed)? Pete C. |
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