Hi there

My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:

I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The outlet
boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room without
spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
over a slab.

After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet on every
circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then replace
every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician tells
me this is all code complaint.

Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My thinking is
that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics from
the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty devices
from electrocuting anyone.

I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges originating
inside the home, but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has a
pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
sort of surge.

So my questions:

1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the house
or will this be a code violation?
3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one outlet
and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit is in a
bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom and
replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?

Thanks!

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:

I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The outlet
boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room without
spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
over a slab.

After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet on every
circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then replace
every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician tells
me this is all code complaint.

From my dealings with an electrical inspector, installing a GFCI on a
circuit that has no ground basically makes it lkie a grounded outlet. We
had an outlet that had no ground and he had us either a) put a two prong
outlet in or b) put in a GFCI.


Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My thinking is
that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics from
the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty devices
from electrocuting anyone.

Is there a ground in your circuit panel?


I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges originating
inside the home,

This should not be a problem anyway.

but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has a
pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
sort of surge.

So my questions:

1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the house
or will this be a code violation?
3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one outlet
and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit is in a
bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom and
replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?

Thanks!

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:

I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The outlet
boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room without
spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
over a slab.

After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet on every
circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then replace
every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician tells
me this is all code complaint.

Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My thinking is
that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics from
the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty devices
from electrocuting anyone.

I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges originating
inside the home, but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has a
pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
sort of surge.

So my questions:

1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
Sounds good.

2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the house
or will this be a code violation?

Not a code violation,
GFCI are so cheap. I would just leave the old ones and put new GFCI's where
needed.
Also you would NOT want to have the refrigerator on GFCI.

3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one outlet
and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit is in a
bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom and
replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?

If something in the bathroom trips the GFCI do you want to run into the
bedroom everytime to reset it?
If it were me I would put GFCI's at all the locations that tend to trip most
often (kitchen, bath, outdoors) wtihout using the GFCI feed thru.
Then I would feed the rest of the outlets from the GFCI where it is
feasible and convenient.
In your case I would put a GFCI in the bedroom without using the GFCI feed
thru, then I would leave the GFCI in the bathroom and then use the feed thru
terminals to feed the rest of the outlet on that circuit.
Depends on how things were wired as to where you start the GFCI feed thru
and how many GFCI's you will need. Also take into consideration how
convenient the GFCI outlet is. ie would you have to move the couch in the
living room to reset the GFCI for an outlet in the garage?
Another consideration is the lighting circuits. Feeding thru GFCI's at an
outlet may also be putting the lights on GFCI. It is a bad idea to have all
the lights go out in a room when a GFCI trips.
The down side of doing it this way is that you could end up with a GFCI on
almost every outlet.
Also some older homes have the smaller electrical boxes that make it
difficult or impossible to get the GFCI in there without replacing the box
too.
Kevin




Thanks!

Personally I think you have it pretty well covered with the
exception of moving an existing unit. I'd just by another -
they're not that expensive these days. Looks like you have a
decent understanding of the situation.

I would however, if it were me anyway, find a way to at least add
an earth for your electronic gear (computer, stereo, etc.); that
way you could use the better surge protectors. The breaker panel
units are good, but ... not as good as something right at the
equipment bieng protected. As long as there's an earth there you
can use.
Have you checked to see if maybe some of the wiring is 3-wire?
That might help a lot with getting some of the outlets grounded.


wrote in message
oups.com...
: Hi there
:
: My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:
:
: I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The
outlet
: boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
: safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room
without
: spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
: over a slab.
:
: After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet
on every
: circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then
replace
: every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
: all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician
tells
: me this is all code complaint.
:
: Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My
thinking is
: that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics
from
: the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty
devices
: from electrocuting anyone.
:
: I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges
originating
: inside the home, but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has
a
: pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
: sort of surge.
:
: So my questions:
:
: 1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
: 2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
: same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the
house
: or will this be a code violation?
: 3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one
outlet
: and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit
is in a
: bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom
and
: replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?
:
: Thanks!
:

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:

I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The outlet
boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room without
spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
over a slab.

After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet on every
circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then replace
every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician tells
me this is all code complaint.

Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My thinking is
that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics from
the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty devices
from electrocuting anyone.

I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges originating
inside the home, but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has a
pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
sort of surge.

So my questions:

1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the house
or will this be a code violation?
3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one outlet
and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit is in a
bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom and
replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?

Thanks!

A whole house surge protector is a good idea, then you need to add point of
use surge protectors. The whole house unit bring the surge down to a level
and then the point of use hopefully brings it down so the device will
survive. There aint no guarantees with this stuff. I replace my WH protector
every other year. MOV's are UL tested once, not twice. Have someone check
your grounding at the electrical service. The surge protectors are worthless
unless there is a good ground.

If surges were being created inside a home, then a 'whole house'
protector makes those transients irrelevant. But if household
appliances are creating surges, then you are trooping daily to the
hardware store to replace smoke detectors, dimmer switches, clock
radios, dishwasher, etc. Obviously those 'inside the house' transients
are myths. Myths also promoted to sell ineffective, overpriced,
undersized, and overhyped plug-in protectors.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. So many
reasons why plug-in protectors will not be effective only starting with
earth ground is too far away from a wall receptacle. But then you
don't even have safety grounds. Just another reason why plug-in
protectors would be useless AND even contribute to damage of the
adjacent appliance.

Any protection that works at the appliance is already inside that
appliance. Protection that can be overwhelmed if you don't properly
earth transients at utility service entrance. Not just a 'whole house'
protector. We arrive at the final and most critical point. Even a
'whole house' protectors will only be as effective as its earth ground.
For example, if a connection to earth is a water pipe some thirty feet
(electrically) distant, then the 'whole house' protector has been
compromised. If all incoming utilities don't connect their protectors
'less than 10 feet' to that same earth ground, then again, protection
has been compromised. (Yes, even the telco installs a 'whole house'
protector on your incoming phone line - for free).

What does a plug-in protector manufacturer not discuss to sell
ineffective products? Earth ground. Even sharp bends, splices in that
grounding wire, or that earthing wire bundled with other wires will
compromise protection.

Start with THE most critical component of every protection system:
earth ground. An industry benchmark is Polyphaser. Polyphaser app
notes don't discuss their protectors. Polyphaser discusses THE most
critical 'system' component: earthing -
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_ptd_home.aspx

Your protection system starts with earthing. 'Whole house'
protectors are simply a good connection to earth. Effective
protectors have responsible manufacturer names such as GE, Square D,
Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, and Polyphaser. Notice
the list specifically does not likst APC, Belkin, or Tripplite whose
products don't even have a dedicated earth ground.

Protection is about earthing which is why your earthing connection
must both meet and exceed post 1990 earthing codes. Start with
earthing to enhnance your electronic protection. The protector is only
as effective as its earth ground.

wrote:
My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:

I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The outlet
boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room without
spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
over a slab.

After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet on every
circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then replace
every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician tells
me this is all code complaint.

Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My thinking is
that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics from
the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty devices
from electrocuting anyone.

I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges originating
inside the home, but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has a
pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
sort of surge.

So my questions:

1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the house
or will this be a code violation?
3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one outlet
and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit is in a
bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom and
replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?

You can't replace two pronged outlets with grounded outlets unless you have
a ground at the box. What you intend to do with the GFCI outlets feeding non
grounded, grounding type outlets is NEC code compliant, but keep in mind you
cannot ground any of the outlets fed from the non grounded GFCI



wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi there

My questions are at the bottom. First, some background:

I just bought a house with mostly ungrounded outlets. The outlet
boxes are not grounded either. My goal is simply to be able to
safely plug three-prong devices into outlets in every room without
spending an arm and a leg grounding outlets, some of which are
over a slab.

After some research, I've decided to replace the first outlet on every
circuit with a GFCI outlet (leaving it ungrounded). I'll then replace
every downstream outlet with a three-prong outlet (leaving them
all ungrounded) and label them per code. A local electrician tells
me this is all code complaint.

Then I'll have a whole-house surge protector installed. My thinking is
that the surge protector will protect my ungrounded electronics from
the more destructive surges while the GFCIs will keep faulty devices
from electrocuting anyone.

I know this still leaves electronics vulnerable to surges originating
inside the home, but I'm willing to risk it unless someone has a
pointer to examples of electronic devices being damaged by this
sort of surge.

So my questions:

1) What am I missing? Does this all sound reasonable?
2) My kitchen has two GFCI outlets (each side of sink) on the
same circuit. Can I pilfer one and use it elsewhere in the house
or will this be a code violation?
3) I have two bathrooms on the same circuit, each with one outlet
and both outlets have GFCIs. The first outlet in this circuit is in a
bedroom across the hall. Can I move one GFCI to the bedroom and
replace the other with a regular 3-prong outlet?

Thanks!

There ya go agin, dude! You da king a dubble talk, dat's fer
sure!

According to RBM rbm2(remove :
You can't replace two pronged outlets with grounded outlets unless you have
a ground at the box. What you intend to do with the GFCI outlets feeding non
grounded, grounding type outlets is NEC code compliant, but keep in mind you
cannot ground any of the outlets fed from the non grounded GFCI

Actually you can, if the ground obtained is a proper one.

What you cannot do is interconnect the ground prongs of outlets downstream
of a GFCI (or within any groundless circuit) _without_ a real ground in
there somewhere.

In other words, you can only connect _real_ grounds to ground prongs.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

My mistake, you cannot connect the ground terminal of the protecting GFCI to
any downstream outlets grounding terminal



"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to RBM rbm2(remove :
You can't replace two pronged outlets with grounded outlets unless you
have
a ground at the box. What you intend to do with the GFCI outlets feeding
non
grounded, grounding type outlets is NEC code compliant, but keep in mind
you
cannot ground any of the outlets fed from the non grounded GFCI

Actually you can, if the ground obtained is a proper one.

What you cannot do is interconnect the ground prongs of outlets downstream
of a GFCI (or within any groundless circuit) _without_ a real ground in
there somewhere.

In other words, you can only connect _real_ grounds to ground prongs.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Thanks for the inputs, guys. I didn't put the fridge on a GFCI
(thanks, I hadn't thought of that), replaced all the outlets that
I wanted to, even installed a 220V dryer outlet in the basement
(newbie here) and the electrician is replacing the panel (Federal
Pacific Stab-Lok), installing the surge protector, and hooking up
my dryer outlet today.

And let me take this opportunity to say that drilling holes in
concrete walls is a BITCH, even with my new hammer drill and
masonry bits. Good god, what I pain. I'm NOT looking forward
to anchoring the shelves I'm about to build to the basement floor...

--
Jason

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the inputs, guys. I didn't put the fridge on a GFCI
(thanks, I hadn't thought of that), replaced all the outlets that
I wanted to, even installed a 220V dryer outlet in the basement
(newbie here) and the electrician is replacing the panel (Federal
Pacific Stab-Lok), installing the surge protector, and hooking up
my dryer outlet today.

And let me take this opportunity to say that drilling holes in
concrete walls is a BITCH, even with my new hammer drill and
masonry bits. Good god, what I pain. I'm NOT looking forward
to anchoring the shelves I'm about to build to the basement floor...

--
Jason


All ya need is a TE-52 Hilti and a 3/4 inch bit. As long as you do not hit
rebar it works just fine.