My friend lives in an area where city water fails when electric power fails
(at least it has in the past).

What are the options available for single family homes to provide "off the
grid" water for a few days at least for a family of 3 or 4? I assume that
you'd need some tanks and bypass valves and a battery operated pump. Anyone
know how much that might cost.

Any leads or ideas would be appreciated. I'll be Googling on several
factors, especially the hazards of bio-nasties growing in large tanks of
water. I'm assuming these tanks would be on line and thus constantly have
the water changing just like a standard water heater.

TIA,

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:

My friend lives in an area where city water fails when electric power fails
(at least it has in the past).

What are the options available for single family homes to provide "off the
grid" water for a few days at least for a family of 3 or 4? I assume that
you'd need some tanks and bypass valves and a battery operated pump. Anyone
know how much that might cost.

Any leads or ideas would be appreciated. I'll be Googling on several
factors, especially the hazards of bio-nasties growing in large tanks of
water. I'm assuming these tanks would be on line and thus constantly have
the water changing just like a standard water heater.

TIA,

--
Bobby G.



Long thread a few months back about "stocking up" or the like.

I'll spare you the long, sad tale but I had a big storage tank
that went bust. I now keep water in 1 Gal water jugs on
shelving in the garage. Rotate the stock and FIFO.

Jim

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:33:17 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote:

Robert Green wrote:

My friend lives in an area where city water fails when electric power fails
(at least it has in the past).

What are the options available for single family homes to provide "off the
grid" water for a few days at least for a family of 3 or 4? I assume that
you'd need some tanks and bypass valves and a battery operated pump. Anyone
know how much that might cost.

Any leads or ideas would be appreciated. I'll be Googling on several
factors, especially the hazards of bio-nasties growing in large tanks of
water. I'm assuming these tanks would be on line and thus constantly have
the water changing just like a standard water heater.

TIA,

The best option I know of is to hook up a bladderless 50-gallon
pressure tank like the ones they use for well-systems, with a
check-valve on the city-side of it so it can't drain backwards,
and *NOT* pressurise the system. Set it up on a pedestal
at least 18" high.

When the water shuts off, you open a faucet upstairs,
then go down into the basement with a bucket, and collect
the water you need from the sill-cock on the pressure tank.

This assumes that your hot water heater is off when
the power's out, too. If it's not, you have to
make sure that you don't somehow drain that, else
loud noises may result.

If you expect to need more water than that,
consider sinking a well, and stocking up
on chlorine and iodine.

In Korea, I have seen huge 300 gallon tanks on the roofs in rural
areas. They have something similar to a toilets valve...as the water
level drops, the valve opens and lets in the city water to fill the
tank. If the city water stops, there is still three hundred gallons on
the roof in the tank. All the water pressure to the house is provided
by gravity since it is roof mounted. Really a simple idea. No batteries
or turning valves or nothing. You wouldnt even know if the city water
was off or not.

In a pure emergency one needs about 1.5 gallons of water or liquids a
day to live. for drinking only.

hygiene, washing hands etc can take many times that.

I am drilling a well this summer for just this situation, right behind
my home. water grass, plants etc. in a emergency use in home for
hygiene toilet flushing etc.

always have some bottled water around for drinking in emergency

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message news:hCa3g.71261

Robert Green wrote:

My friend lives in an area where city water fails when electric power
fails
(at least it has in the past).

What are the options available for single family homes to provide "off
the
grid" water for a few days at least for a family of 3 or 4?

-- Bobby G.

Long thread a few months back about "stocking up" or the like.

I'll look for it.

I'll spare you the long, sad tale but I had a big storage tank
that went bust. I now keep water in 1 Gal water jugs on
shelving in the garage. Rotate the stock and FIFO.

That's what they've been doing but it's a PITA in more ways than one. I
suppose a big tank going bust is a PITA too. I wonder if the make double
hull storage tanks to prevent such mishaps.

--
Bobby G.


Jim

"Goedjn" wrote in message

What are the options available for single family homes to provide "off
the
grid" water for a few days at least for a family of 3 or 4?

The best option I know of is to hook up a bladderless 50-gallon
pressure tank like the ones they use for well-systems, with a
check-valve on the city-side of it so it can't drain backwards,
and *NOT* pressurise the system. Set it up on a pedestal
at least 18" high.

When the water shuts off, you open a faucet upstairs,
then go down into the basement with a bucket, and collect
the water you need from the sill-cock on the pressure tank.

I was hoping for a solution that could be automated the way a transfer
switch and generator work for the electrical supply.

This assumes that your hot water heater is off when
the power's out, too. If it's not, you have to
make sure that you don't somehow drain that, else
loud noises may result.

It's a gas-fired water heater, I believe.

If you expect to need more water than that,
consider sinking a well, and stocking up
on chlorine and iodine.

That might be a better idea. Hmmm . . .

--
Bobby G.

On Mon, 1 May 2006 09:22:31 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
I was hoping for a solution that could be automated the way a transfer
switch and generator work for the electrical supply.

Easy enough to do... You would hook it up just like someone who had a
water well... Instead of the well supplying water to your presurized
water storage tank, the city would act as the water source... You
would have a booster pump that takes the city water and puts it in the
pressurized water storage tank at a higher pressure... If you're not
competent to hook it up yourself, you can hire one of the companies
that do water wells to do it for you... I believe that you can find
all the parts for the project at Home Depot or Lowes, if you're so
inclined...

According to
http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/...ies-page24.pdf

A 120 gallon 75 psi non-bladder is $569, is 24" in diameter and 66"
high... If you need more than 120 gallons, put multiples ones of them
in parallel by attaching a "T" fiting to them...

http://www.watertanks.com/products/0495-025.asp
315 gallons, 36" diameter, 79.5" high, $1,701...

http://www.watertanks.com/category/49/
480 gallons, 42" diameter, 87" high, $2,226...

http://www.watertanks.com/products/0495-040.asp
900 gallons, 42" diameter, 160.5" high, $4,589.99...

You'll need a booster pump something like one of these...
http://www.watertanks.com/category/43/

And various fittings, of course...

End result? It's doable... No big deal... If you've got the money,
someone's got the product for you...

wrote in message
ups.com...
In a pure emergency one needs about 1.5 gallons of water or liquids a
day to live. for drinking only.

hygiene, washing hands etc can take many times that.

When the news says a hurricane or some other weather catastrophe is
approaching we fill the bathtubs with water. The last time that happened we
were able to survive on the bottled water for drinking and tub water for
flushing as well as sponge bathing. You're quite right - hygiene needs
really use up water fast.

I am drilling a well this summer for just this situation, right behind
my home. water grass, plants etc. in a emergency use in home for
hygiene toilet flushing etc.

That's sounding like a better and better idea. Ever since Katrina hit I've
been more than a little concerned about long term emergencies.

always have some bottled water around for drinking in emergency

That's a given for me, although I know plenty of people who don't bother.

--
Bobby G.

"komobu" wrote in message
ups.com...
In Korea, I have seen huge 300 gallon tanks on the roofs in rural
areas. They have something similar to a toilets valve...as the water
level drops, the valve opens and lets in the city water to fill the
tank. If the city water stops, there is still three hundred gallons on
the roof in the tank. All the water pressure to the house is provided
by gravity since it is roof mounted. Really a simple idea. No batteries
or turning valves or nothing. You wouldnt even know if the city water
was off or not.

That's a very simple and interesting solution. Not sure it would pass
muster with the local US inspectors, but it's certainly got appeal for a
number of reasons. Thanks for the idea!

--
Bobby G.

Great URL's - thanks muchly! They seem have everything that will be needed.
The question now is whether to sink a well or not.

--
Bobby G.


"Grumman-581" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 May 2006 09:22:31 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:
I was hoping for a solution that could be automated the way a transfer
switch and generator work for the electrical supply.

Easy enough to do... You would hook it up just like someone who had a
water well... Instead of the well supplying water to your presurized
water storage tank, the city would act as the water source... You
would have a booster pump that takes the city water and puts it in the
pressurized water storage tank at a higher pressure... If you're not
competent to hook it up yourself, you can hire one of the companies
that do water wells to do it for you... I believe that you can find
all the parts for the project at Home Depot or Lowes, if you're so
inclined...

According to
http://www.do-it-yourself-pumps.com/...ies-page24.pdf

A 120 gallon 75 psi non-bladder is $569, is 24" in diameter and 66"
high... If you need more than 120 gallons, put multiples ones of them
in parallel by attaching a "T" fiting to them...

http://www.watertanks.com/products/0495-025.asp
315 gallons, 36" diameter, 79.5" high, $1,701...

http://www.watertanks.com/category/49/
480 gallons, 42" diameter, 87" high, $2,226...

http://www.watertanks.com/products/0495-040.asp
900 gallons, 42" diameter, 160.5" high, $4,589.99...

You'll need a booster pump something like one of these...
http://www.watertanks.com/category/43/

And various fittings, of course...

End result? It's doable... No big deal... If you've got the money,
someone's got the product for you...

On Mon, 1 May 2006 10:03:26 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

That's a very simple and interesting solution. Not sure it would pass
muster with the local US inspectors, but it's certainly got appeal for a
number of reasons. Thanks for the idea!

You won't get the water pressure that you would with one of the
presurized tanks... To get 40 psi, you'll need about a 90 ft water
column...

On Mon, 1 May 2006 10:09:37 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Great URL's - thanks muchly! They seem have everything that will be needed.
The question now is whether to sink a well or not.

Whether you sink a well or not, you'll still need the booster pump and
the storage tank... My previous house had an 1100 ft well, but city
water was available if I so desired... Because of the city's
requirement that you physically come to their office to sign up for
it, I just ran with my well water... I needed it anyway for the 2
geothermal heat pumps... I changed the plumbing around a bit so that I
could have either city or well water feeding the heat pumps, the water
faucets, or even both... Of course, you really didn't want to use city
water for the heat pumps since it would cost too much, but it *could*
have been configured that way by opening and closing a few different
valves if I had so desired...

If you are preparing for a hurricane and you have a well, you can get
by with less water storage capacity *if* you are sure that you will
have fuel for a generator sufficiently large enough to run your well
and booster pumps...

Two more considerations that I did not see in the previous replies...

1 - Water is heavy. A 300 gallon tank, full, will weigh in the
neighborhood of 2500 pounds, concentrated in just a few square feet.
This can easily collapse a roof if it isn't supported properly. Those
storage tanks you see in other countries are put there when the house
is built, usually, and so would have proper support underneath. Houses
are often made of concrete too in many countries, e.g., in 3rd world
contries where storing water is common. And fall down quite a bit more
often than in the US.

2 - Stagnant water will not be drinkable after a few months. At least,
you won't want to drink it, because it will be full of algae, crud,
slime, etc. Periodic flushing and refilling aren't really great ideas,
because eventually it will fall out of habit, or be neglected, etc. The
best idea is to just use the water continuously. E.g., find some way to
make your system such that in regular use, all water gets flushed
through the system daily. The reservoir, in other words, should be your
normal, daily water supply, replenished as needed from city water. When
power goes out, you just cut off the city supply in some way, and rely
on the water remaining in the system at the time the power was cut.

-Kevin

When the water shuts off, you open a faucet upstairs,
then go down into the basement with a bucket, and collect
the water you need from the sill-cock on the pressure tank.

I was hoping for a solution that could be automated the way a transfer
switch and generator work for the electrical supply.

There are human/behavioral problems with that, in conjunction
with stored water. If you don't make getting to the water
at least a little bit of a pain, people will continue their
normal use-patterns, which will run through your stored capacity
in a hurry.

On 24 Apr 2006 14:55:19 -0700, "
wrote:

In a pure emergency one needs about 1.5 gallons of water or liquids a
day to live. for drinking only.

hygiene, washing hands etc can take many times that.

I am drilling a well this summer for just this situation, right behind
my home. water grass, plants etc. in a emergency use in home for
hygiene toilet flushing etc.

always have some bottled water around for drinking in emergency

While we're on the subject, are normal well-heads open to atmosphere?
in which case, if a local flood covers the well-head, you can expect
a contaminated well? Or are they typically sealed?

--Goedjn

"kevin" wrote in message
oups.com...
Two more considerations that I did not see in the previous replies...

1 - Water is heavy. A 300 gallon tank, full, will weigh in the
neighborhood of 2500 pounds, concentrated in just a few square feet.
This can easily collapse a roof if it isn't supported properly.

300 gallons was what they use in Korea. I can't even carry a 5 gallon water
bottle so I've got an idea of the weights involved. Based on previous
experience, they can get by with 50 to 100 gallons if "yellow/mellow"
protocols are in place.

Those storage tanks you see in other countries are put there when
the house is built, usually, and so would have proper support
underneath. Houses are often made of concrete too in many
countries, e.g., in 3rd world contries where storing water is
common. And fall down quite a bit more often than in the US.

When the big one hits sunny California there will be plenty of "all fall
down" to go around. But I get the point. Any gravity feed system will have
to be properly braced. It makes me wonder if they wouldn't be better served
by a solar water heating system that would provide a small reservoir of
water as well.

2 - Stagnant water will not be drinkable after a few months. At least,
you won't want to drink it, because it will be full of algae, crud,
slime, etc. Periodic flushing and refilling aren't really great ideas,
because eventually it will fall out of habit, or be neglected, etc. The
best idea is to just use the water continuously. E.g., find some way to
make your system such that in regular use, all water gets flushed
through the system daily. The reservoir, in other words, should be your
normal, daily water supply, replenished as needed from city water.

Another reason to look at a solar water heating systems - they are "in line"
AFAIK. The stagnant water issues are a real concern. Even water stored in
bottles gets unpleasant awfully quickly, although I suspect it's going to be
less bio-hazardous than a huge roof tank. However, in a really bad
situation, even ucky water is better than no water at all.

When power goes out, you just cut off the city supply in some
way, and rely on the water remaining in the system at the time the
power was cut.

I'm also liking the well idea more and more. That's pretty settled upon
technology.

--
Bobby G.

Points well taken. I'm not there, so don't know how creative you want
to get. I am on a well (which, no, is not exposed to the atmosphere --
it is sealed, as should all wells be -- although if it got completely
submerged by a flood I would probably want to have it tested just in
case it leaked). Um, sorry...

I am on a well, and have a standard pressure tank that holds maybe 40
gallons or so of water max, and keeps at minimum about 20 gallons in
the tank at all times. When it gets down to around 20, the pressure
gets too low, which trips a switch and turns on the well pump. When
the power goes out (taking our well pump with it), we have somewhere
between 20 and 40 gallons of water left in the system. The last 10 or
so would be at very low pressure -- but can be retrieved in the
basement pressure tank drain if needed. We get our drinking water at a
spring, using cleaned gallon milk jugs. We get a few days worth at a
time (8 gallons or so) -- after 2 weeks or so the water would get a bit
funny the way we store it. Even so, we still have to discard the jugs
after a while and replace with new ones.

You might do just fine with just a well pressure tank (or two), fitted
in some simple manner to your city water supply. I imagine something
like this might work:
Use one, two, or more pressure tanks, hooked up using tees. Use just a
single pressure switch, located one one of the tanks. Hook the pressure
switch up to an electronically-controlled valve that opens the city
water connection. Normally you would be using water from the pressure
tanks. When volume (and pressure) gets too low, the pressure switch
would open the city water valve, replenishing up to full volume (and
pressure).

-Kevin

"Goedjn" wrote in message

stuff snipped

While we're on the subject, are normal well-heads open to atmosphere?
in which case, if a local flood covers the well-head, you can expect
a contaminated well? Or are they typically sealed?

Good question. There are lots of "gotchas" to consider - that's one I
hadn't thought of. A friend I know got God-awful sick from giardia (sp?)
that came from a contaminated well. They were seriously ill and it took a
while to recover.

--
Bobby G.

"Grumman-581" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 1 May 2006 10:03:26 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

That's a very simple and interesting solution. Not sure it would pass
muster with the local US inspectors, but it's certainly got appeal for a
number of reasons. Thanks for the idea!

You won't get the water pressure that you would with one of the
presurized tanks... To get 40 psi, you'll need about a 90 ft water
column...

I realize that. I'd want to pump and pressurize the water so that it could
be filtered as well.

--
Bobby G.

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

There are human/behavioral problems with that, in conjunction
with stored water. If you don't make getting to the water
at least a little bit of a pain, people will continue their
normal use-patterns, which will run through your stored capacity
in a hurry.

True. I'd venture that unless people have lived with the water shut off for
at least a few days they really don't have any idea of how much water they
consume in a day. IIRC, it's about 70-80 gallons a day per person.

--
Bobby G.

"Grumman-581" grumman581@DIE-SPAMMER-SCUM-

stuff snipped

If you are preparing for a hurricane and you have a well, you can get
by with less water storage capacity *if* you are sure that you will
have fuel for a generator sufficiently large enough to run your well
and booster pumps...

That's a good point. During one of the 10 year floods we get in my area,
the electricity failed, the generator wouldn't kick over and by the time I
got it sorted out, there was a foot of water in the basement. Since then
I've acquired a number of deep-cycle 12VDC batteries and marine pumps.

--
Bobby G.

Well, I don't have much idea what the average american uses, but it is
easy to live on way less than 70 gallons per day. One can get by on
about 5 gallons, maybe 10 gallons, a day. That includes drinking,
cooking, cleaning, washing clothes (by hand, which admitedly uses a lot
less water), the occational sponge bath once a week or so, and re-using
waste water for flushing the toilet.

A quick check on
http://www.peacecorps.gov/WWS/water/...eog01sup01.pdf
shows that 10 gallons per day per capita is about average for w.
africa. US is closer to 200 gallons per day per capita. But in an
emergency, one has to learn to change lifestyles quick.

A quick check on
http://www.peacecorps.gov/WWS/water/...eog01sup01.pdf
shows that 10 gallons per day per capita is about average for w.
africa. US is closer to 200 gallons per day per capita. But in an
emergency, one has to learn to change lifestyles quick.

"per capita" water usage numbers can be very misleading, though,
since they usually include things that aren't really domestic
water-use. As an example: from
http://www.pepps.fsu.edu/safe/pdf/sc1.pdf

"Per capita water use is calculated by dividing the total
public supplied water in gallons per day by the population
served for each state. The water withdrawn from public water
suppliers includes all waters withdrawn by public and private
water suppliers and delivered to multiple users for domestic,
commercial, industrial, and thermoelectric power uses, as
well as water lost in collection and distribution systems,
public use (water for fire fighting, street washing,
municipal parks, and swimming pools), and water transferred
between adjacent states or water-resources regions.
This differs from total water use since it does not include
irrigation and agriculture."

That page give figures that range from 83 to 575 US Statute
gallons (300 to 2200 litres) per person, across assorted
states and years, but I distrust the "not include
irrigation and agriculture", claim, since it almost
certainly DOES include irrigation for lawns and household
gardens. It doesn't say whether they estimate individual
wells for single-unit dwellings. I suspect not.

--Goedjn

Yup, I am sure you are right that the numbers can be misleading. Those
numbers certainly arent authoritative in any case -- they came from a
elementary-school science project lesson plan... at least, that is
where I got them. Perhaps the 80 gal figure is closer to "domestic" per
capita consumption.

Of course, there is no denying that americans use a lot more water
than, say, people in west africa. And yes, lots of it is certainly used
for things like firefighting, large-scale agriculture, etc., which may
not play much of a role in many countries But a lot is also wasted on
watering lawns and such, and not necessary in an emergency situation
anyway. I also would assume that the vast majority of american's
gardens are not used for food production, but for pleasure or
decoration. That is in contrast to a typical african household garden,
which plays a major role in feeding the family.

-Kevin

Most well heads are sealed, although in a emergency contamination may
still occur, bottled water or purifying tablets are necessary/

most wellls arent completely clear of contamination, and things can and
do change from moment to moment....

most wells should be chlorinated for safety

most wells should be chlorinated for safety

Really? I've not heard that before, and very few people in our town
chlorinate either. Can you point me to more information?

-kevin