The heating contractor wants run a duct up from the cellar through the
living room floor and then turn 90 degrees to go through the wall to the
adjacent room that is on a slab. He says he'll box it in, but this will
leave an obstruction 8 inches out into the living room floor. Any reason
I can't remove a concrete block and come up through the sill plate and
run the duct up inside the wall? Any reason the contractor won't do it?

Bob

You need to make sure you won't cause any structural problems with the home,
and you must maintain the same size duct all the way, with as few turns as
possible.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
The heating contractor wants run a duct up from the cellar through the
living room floor and then turn 90 degrees to go through the wall to the
adjacent room that is on a slab. He says he'll box it in, but this will
leave an obstruction 8 inches out into the living room floor. Any reason
I can't remove a concrete block and come up through the sill plate and
run the duct up inside the wall? Any reason the contractor won't do it?

Bob

Bob wrote:
You need to make sure you won't cause any structural problems with the home,
and you must maintain the same size duct all the way, with as few turns as
possible.


Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and then
cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob


"RobertM" wrote in message
...
The heating contractor wants run a duct up from the cellar through the
living room floor and then turn 90 degrees to go through the wall to the
adjacent room that is on a slab. He says he'll box it in, but this will
leave an obstruction 8 inches out into the living room floor. Any reason
I can't remove a concrete block and come up through the sill plate and
run the duct up inside the wall? Any reason the contractor won't do it?

Bob

Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to
go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and then

cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it
takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob


lazy contractor Are you SURE you trust him with the whole job??

The boxed in area he wanted to create would permanetely devalue your
home

If he is cutting corners on such a obviuous thing what about what you
cant see?

wrote:

Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to
go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and then

cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it
takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob


lazy contractor Are you SURE you trust him with the whole job??

The boxed in area he wanted to create would permanetely devalue your
home

If he is cutting corners on such a obviuous thing what about what you
cant see?

Thanks, I think I'll get a quote from someone else. Won't hurt to ask a
couple of other heating contractors. I just wondered how far heating
contractors go, and if this type of work was something that a heating
contractor would consider as something that should be done by a general
contractor.

Bob

I typically do that kind of work on a T&M basis. I only give firm quotes on
a whole new duct system, because you never know what you're going to run
into. On a small job it could end up taking twice as long, but with a bigger
job, you can usually make up the time in another part of the job, so it
evens out.
If it's hollow block, you can knock it out in 5 minutes. Whenever possible,
I use a chainsaw to cut out sill plates, but plan on ruining the chain if
you hit something like a nail or cinderblock.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:
You need to make sure you won't cause any structural problems with the
home,
and you must maintain the same size duct all the way, with as few turns
as
possible.


Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and then
cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob


"RobertM" wrote in message
...
The heating contractor wants run a duct up from the cellar through the
living room floor and then turn 90 degrees to go through the wall to
the
adjacent room that is on a slab. He says he'll box it in, but this will
leave an obstruction 8 inches out into the living room floor. Any
reason
I can't remove a concrete block and come up through the sill plate and
run the duct up inside the wall? Any reason the contractor won't do it?

Bob

Had the same problem 2 years back. HVAC contractor wanted to do the same
thing but i stopped him after doing some research on the web.
The solution i found was replacing the old water heater tank with a high
efficiency 'just in time' heater (98% efficient and no flue required) by
taguchi at cost of $800 canadian. This was plumbed in to handle the low
profile radiators in that room (cheap, cost is $7 per linear foot and takes
3/4" copper pipe) total for these lightwieght rads was $125 for a 300 sq/ft
addition.
A few feet of copper pipe was needed and the hydronic system could be used
in many ways. It heats our home water supply and does the heat via
radiators in the addition. A simple valve stops the heat process when it is
not needed.
"RobertM" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to
go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and then

cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it
takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob


lazy contractor Are you SURE you trust him with the whole job??

The boxed in area he wanted to create would permanetely devalue your
home

If he is cutting corners on such a obviuous thing what about what you
cant see?

Thanks, I think I'll get a quote from someone else. Won't hurt to ask a
couple of other heating contractors. I just wondered how far heating
contractors go, and if this type of work was something that a heating
contractor would consider as something that should be done by a general
contractor.

Bob

maybe ground dampness, insulating considerations, loss of heat,
efficient ducts run thru conditioned space not attics and basement
crawl spaces.
read all the links that apply at this site as they pertain to your
who-what-where-when-why-and how for your climate, construction style,
ground environment:
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/homeowner.htm

Bob wrote:
I typically do that kind of work on a T&M basis. I only give firm quotes on
a whole new duct system, because you never know what you're going to run
into. On a small job it could end up taking twice as long, but with a bigger
job, you can usually make up the time in another part of the job, so it
evens out.
If it's hollow block, you can knock it out in 5 minutes. Whenever possible,
I use a chainsaw to cut out sill plates, but plan on ruining the chain if
you hit something like a nail or cinderblock.


This is a completely new system. We're talking in the $6000 price range,
so I can't see someone not wanting to do it right. I'm not asking them
to do it for nothing. If they said it would cost an extra $100 I'd have
said yes. It appears they simply don't want to be bothered.

Bob

In article , says...

The heating contractor wants run a duct up from the cellar through the
living room floor and then turn 90 degrees to go through the wall to the
adjacent room that is on a slab. He says he'll box it in, but this will
leave an obstruction 8 inches out into the living room floor. Any reason
I can't remove a concrete block and come up through the sill plate and
run the duct up inside the wall? Any reason the contractor won't do it?

Bob


I have some ducts run through a block wall in my home. It works out well since
the standard HVAC ducts are 8" high (with varying widths), so up to a 16" wide
duct fits in the space of one block. It's very easy to remove blocks with a
hammer and chisel.

DT wrote:
In article , says...
The heating contractor wants run a duct up from the cellar through the
living room floor and then turn 90 degrees to go through the wall to the
adjacent room that is on a slab. He says he'll box it in, but this will
leave an obstruction 8 inches out into the living room floor. Any reason
I can't remove a concrete block and come up through the sill plate and
run the duct up inside the wall? Any reason the contractor won't do it?

Bob


I have some ducts run through a block wall in my home. It works out well since
the standard HVAC ducts are 8" high (with varying widths), so up to a 16" wide
duct fits in the space of one block. It's very easy to remove blocks with a
hammer and chisel.


I just phoned a general contractor. He says sure he'll cut the holes,
no problem and add extra support if needed. But the doubt about the
heating contractor remains. I'll still shop around on that. As pointed
out, if the heating contractor wants to cut corners on this, what else
is he cutting corners on that I won't be aware of?

Bob

On 21 Jan 2006 16:10:05 -0800, "buffalobill"
wrote:

maybe ground dampness, insulating considerations, loss of heat,
efficient ducts run thru conditioned space not attics and basement
crawl spaces.

Not that you're disaggreeeing....

If I read correcttly, they dno't give any reason. You're reasons
might be good -- I'm not there to tell -- but if they can't express
what their reason is, I'd be very unhappy.

read all the links that apply at this site as they pertain to your
who-what-where-when-why-and how for your climate, construction style,
ground environment:
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/homeowner.htm


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:30:23 -0600, RobertM
wrote:


I just phoned a general contractor. He says sure he'll cut the holes,
no problem and add extra support if needed. But the doubt about the
heating contractor remains. I'll still shop around on that. As pointed
out, if the heating contractor wants to cut corners on this, what else
is he cutting corners on that I won't be aware of?

Maybe you could make that 8 inch high box in your living room into an
altar or a feeding table for your dog. Or a launch pad for IRBMs,
InterRoom Ballistic Missiles.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to
go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and then

cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it
takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob

Only way I would consider running a duct like that (through finished living
space at floor level) would be if I could painlessly bury it in the bottom
foot of a built-in bookcase or something. Yeah, notching out a block wall
and sill is a PITA, but sometimes there is no easy way to do a retrofit.
I'll be facing something similar here when I replace the
long-past-service-life furnace, and extend the ducts into the addition to
get rid of this damn secondary wall furnace. But at least I have a decently
deep crawl space under the addition- the only hard part will be getting
through 2 poured foundation walls for the duct runs. How much does drilling
8-inch holes through reinforced concrete walls cost again? :^(

aem sends...

If you're adding more than one or two branch ducts, be sure to do a Manual
D, because you'll probably need to increase the size of your supply and
return trunk ducts.

"ameijers" wrote in message
...

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to
go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and
then

cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it
takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob

Only way I would consider running a duct like that (through finished
living
space at floor level) would be if I could painlessly bury it in the bottom
foot of a built-in bookcase or something. Yeah, notching out a block wall
and sill is a PITA, but sometimes there is no easy way to do a retrofit.
I'll be facing something similar here when I replace the
long-past-service-life furnace, and extend the ducts into the addition to
get rid of this damn secondary wall furnace. But at least I have a
decently
deep crawl space under the addition- the only hard part will be getting
through 2 poured foundation walls for the duct runs. How much does
drilling
8-inch holes through reinforced concrete walls cost again? :^(

aem sends...

When you say, "it appears they simply don't want to be bothered", who are
"they"? Have you talked to the owner of the company? Have you signed a
contract with them? Have they delivered any equipment to the property?
Find out if the company did a heat loss/gain on the house. If they did, then
they probably do ok work. They may just be worried about something
structural.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:
I typically do that kind of work on a T&M basis. I only give firm quotes
on
a whole new duct system, because you never know what you're going to run
into. On a small job it could end up taking twice as long, but with a
bigger
job, you can usually make up the time in another part of the job, so it
evens out.
If it's hollow block, you can knock it out in 5 minutes. Whenever
possible,
I use a chainsaw to cut out sill plates, but plan on ruining the chain
if
you hit something like a nail or cinderblock.


This is a completely new system. We're talking in the $6000 price range,
so I can't see someone not wanting to do it right. I'm not asking them
to do it for nothing. If they said it would cost an extra $100 I'd have
said yes. It appears they simply don't want to be bothered.

Bob

Bob wrote:
If you're adding more than one or two branch ducts, be sure to do a Manual
D, because you'll probably need to increase the size of your supply and
return trunk ducts.

"ameijers" wrote in message
...
"RobertM" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Same number of turns either way. He said it would be a lot of work to
go
through the block. I can rent a hammer chisel to cut the block and
then
cut the hole in the sill plate with a Sawzall in less time than it
takes
for the contractor to explain why he can't do it. Perhaps if I offered
him the option that he can run the duct and I'll do the work of making
the hole.

Bob

Only way I would consider running a duct like that (through finished
living
space at floor level) would be if I could painlessly bury it in the bottom
foot of a built-in bookcase or something. Yeah, notching out a block wall
and sill is a PITA, but sometimes there is no easy way to do a retrofit.
I'll be facing something similar here when I replace the
long-past-service-life furnace, and extend the ducts into the addition to
get rid of this damn secondary wall furnace. But at least I have a
decently
deep crawl space under the addition- the only hard part will be getting
through 2 poured foundation walls for the duct runs. How much does
drilling
8-inch holes through reinforced concrete walls cost again? :^(

aem sends...



New heating system, not just a branch.

Bob

Bob wrote:
When you say, "it appears they simply don't want to be bothered", who are
"they"? Have you talked to the owner of the company? Have you signed a
contract with them? Have they delivered any equipment to the property?
Find out if the company did a heat loss/gain on the house. If they did, then
they probably do ok work. They may just be worried about something
structural.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:
I typically do that kind of work on a T&M basis. I only give firm quotes
on
a whole new duct system, because you never know what you're going to run
into. On a small job it could end up taking twice as long, but with a
bigger
job, you can usually make up the time in another part of the job, so it
evens out.
If it's hollow block, you can knock it out in 5 minutes. Whenever
possible,
I use a chainsaw to cut out sill plates, but plan on ruining the chain
if
you hit something like a nail or cinderblock.

This is a completely new system. We're talking in the $6000 price range,
so I can't see someone not wanting to do it right. I'm not asking them
to do it for nothing. If they said it would cost an extra $100 I'd have
said yes. It appears they simply don't want to be bothered.

Bob


The salesman is the owner of the company. No contract yet. I had just
wondering if his lack of enthusiasm for doing work was related to
something structural or to cost savings on his part. After talking with
the general contractor, I'm convinced I need to find a different heating
contractor. I didn't want to be calling one heating person after another
if this was something that shouldn't be done, but it appears the first
guy simply wants a quick job, in and out, no muss no fuss and collect
his money.

Bob

If the first guy was recommended by the builder, then definitely get more
estimates.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:
When you say, "it appears they simply don't want to be bothered", who
are
"they"? Have you talked to the owner of the company? Have you signed a
contract with them? Have they delivered any equipment to the property?
Find out if the company did a heat loss/gain on the house. If they did,
then
they probably do ok work. They may just be worried about something
structural.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:
I typically do that kind of work on a T&M basis. I only give firm
quotes
on
a whole new duct system, because you never know what you're going to
run
into. On a small job it could end up taking twice as long, but with a
bigger
job, you can usually make up the time in another part of the job, so
it
evens out.
If it's hollow block, you can knock it out in 5 minutes. Whenever
possible,
I use a chainsaw to cut out sill plates, but plan on ruining the chain
if
you hit something like a nail or cinderblock.

This is a completely new system. We're talking in the $6000 price
range,
so I can't see someone not wanting to do it right. I'm not asking them
to do it for nothing. If they said it would cost an extra $100 I'd have
said yes. It appears they simply don't want to be bothered.

Bob


The salesman is the owner of the company. No contract yet. I had just
wondering if his lack of enthusiasm for doing work was related to
something structural or to cost savings on his part. After talking with
the general contractor, I'm convinced I need to find a different heating
contractor. I didn't want to be calling one heating person after another
if this was something that shouldn't be done, but it appears the first
guy simply wants a quick job, in and out, no muss no fuss and collect
his money.

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
news
If you're adding more than one or two branch ducts, be sure to do a Manual
D, because you'll probably need to increase the size of your supply and
return trunk ducts.

That is why I will be hiring (and probably paying dearly for) expert
assistance. The bids I get will specify that I want a whole-house study, not
just a light-bulb switchout. I know just enough to be dangerous, and this
will probably be a 4-5 K job minimum, so I won't cry over a few hundred for
the guy to do a site survey.

aem sends...

ameijers wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
news
If you're adding more than one or two branch ducts, be sure to do a Manual
D, because you'll probably need to increase the size of your supply and
return trunk ducts.

That is why I will be hiring (and probably paying dearly for) expert
assistance. The bids I get will specify that I want a whole-house study, not
just a light-bulb switchout. I know just enough to be dangerous, and this
will probably be a 4-5 K job minimum, so I won't cry over a few hundred for
the guy to do a site survey.

aem sends...

Yes, I agree. This job includes the heating cooling load study and I'll
be paying close to $6000 for the entire job. I'm not crying over a few
hundred dollars, that is not the issue. My concern is that everyone
should do what they will be hired to do. Problem on the newsgroups is
that as soon as someone mentions a problem, everyone thinks the guy is a
DIY trying to go the cheapest route. This is not the case. I just want
to make sure I'll be getting what I pay for.

Bob

Let each contractor do his own heat loss calculation. With today's computer
programs, it doesn't take a long time. If the guy doesn't have a computer
program, he can take the info to his local equipment wholesaler who will do
it for him. Heat loss/gains are not an exact science. There are too many
variables that can be entered into the calculations. The major one being
infiltration. You can even come up with different numbers depending on the
amount of people living in the house, and a lot of other stuff like trees.
Do not discount the guy who comes back with the smallest load. Most home
owners believe that bigger is better, and most contractors would rather sell
you what you want rather than insist on a smaller size that they know would
be better.

"RobertM" wrote in message
...
ameijers wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
news
If you're adding more than one or two branch ducts, be sure to do a
Manual
D, because you'll probably need to increase the size of your supply and
return trunk ducts.

That is why I will be hiring (and probably paying dearly for) expert
assistance. The bids I get will specify that I want a whole-house study,
not
just a light-bulb switchout. I know just enough to be dangerous, and
this
will probably be a 4-5 K job minimum, so I won't cry over a few hundred
for
the guy to do a site survey.

aem sends...

Yes, I agree. This job includes the heating cooling load study and I'll
be paying close to $6000 for the entire job. I'm not crying over a few
hundred dollars, that is not the issue. My concern is that everyone
should do what they will be hired to do. Problem on the newsgroups is
that as soon as someone mentions a problem, everyone thinks the guy is a
DIY trying to go the cheapest route. This is not the case. I just want
to make sure I'll be getting what I pay for.

Bob