I want to replace some light switches in my house with some of the x10
switches that dim and all that automation stuff. I know how to tell if
a light fixture's power is off - the light goes out! Outlets are easy
because I can plug a light in it. But what about the switch to the
light? I have meter, but I am not sure what to put it on to test the
power. Thank you for any help not getting me killed.

Switch the main off.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit
wrote in message
ups.com...
I want to replace some light switches in my house with some of the x10
switches that dim and all that automation stuff. I know how to tell if
a light fixture's power is off - the light goes out! Outlets are easy
because I can plug a light in it. But what about the switch to the
light? I have meter, but I am not sure what to put it on to test the
power. Thank you for any help not getting me killed.

"I know how to tell if a light fixture's power is off - the
light goes out!"
You don't have the first clue about electricity. Please don't
do anything. You are wrong wrong wrong. A light can be off
and have full power. plenty of times the switch will be after
the light. or an outlet could have a bad neutral but a good
ground. SHOCKING!!! I'd suggest you find a buddy who does
know something and is willing to help you. At the very least
check everything with a meter. all wires to ground and across
all wire combinations. even then, wear some rubber shoes.
this isn't complicated but it can kill you.
....thehick

please read first before you begin :
if there 2 wires in a switchbox, usually one is hot and the switch
connects it to the other wire to send hot to the light where the bulb
completes the circuit to the return wire. but the shock hazard can be
from the switch hot to its own box which may be grounded providing a
return path. or you could touch the hot with your left hand and the
electricity passes up your arm and thru your heart when your right arm
connects to a grounded radiator or water line or sink.
your amp setting would measure the amperage passing across the off
switch to the light and turn it on at the same time. switch on to read
zero amps. switch off would read amps of the glowing light.
if there are more than two wires in a box things may get confusing for
you. hazard to you, the kids, whoever walks past the light switch until
you finish your repair. in a bathroom where two switches are present
the heater may be on a separate hot circuit.
electricity is best repaired by two people, one with a cellphone and
clipboard and tools, and you and your rubber gloves and a few battery
lamps and flashlights.
please read faq pages first:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/

Why would the light still be hot if when I turn off the breaker it goes
out? I don't understand.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I want to replace some light switches in my house with some of the x10
switches that dim and all that automation stuff. I know how to tell if
a light fixture's power is off - the light goes out! Outlets are easy
because I can plug a light in it. But what about the switch to the
light? I have meter, but I am not sure what to put it on to test the
power. Thank you for any help not getting me killed.

Hey Doug!
You shouldn't do stuff like this if you don't know how to test for power.

Doug?

wrote in message
ups.com...
Doug?

Private joke

If you turn the light on at the switch, and then turn the breaker off, and
the light goes out, then there is no electricity to the switch. This does
not mean that there isn't still a hot wire inside that box. You obviously
don't know enough about basic electricity. I suggest that you either do some
reading or have a friend show you (preferably both). If you still insist on
doing electrical work without the proper knowledge, then make sure you have
enough insurance.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I want to replace some light switches in my house with some of the x10
switches that dim and all that automation stuff. I know how to tell if
a light fixture's power is off - the light goes out! Outlets are easy
because I can plug a light in it. But what about the switch to the
light? I have meter, but I am not sure what to put it on to test the
power. Thank you for any help not getting me killed.

does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

for practical purposes as long as lite turns on ok, and then breaker
turns it off, then box should be dead.

getting shocked isnt a good thing, but isnt the end usually.

always wear rubber soled shoes, stand on dry ground, only use one hand
in box, to mimize across the chest shocks.

if in doubt trip the main house breaker!!!!

get a good book on wiring, and get a knowledgable friend to help, at
least the first time.

wrote in message
oups.com...
does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

It does not say you can't. Though I think you are supposed to tie the
breaker handles together.

It is not uncommon have 2 or more circuits in a box with multiple switches.
For example at an entrance where one switch is for a light in the garage
and one switch on a different circuit for the kitchen light.
Disposal/dischwasher is another box that may have 2 circuits.

I have seen a light box being used as a juction box for another ciucuit etc.
It is especally fun when the neutrals from different circuits are tied
together and you don't have the other circuit turned off and you go to
disconnet the neutrals... BTDT...

FYI - I use a neon testlight, much easier than fumbling with a meter.

Kevin


for practical purposes as long as lite turns on ok, and then breaker
turns it off, then box should be dead.

getting shocked isnt a good thing, but isnt the end usually.

always wear rubber soled shoes, stand on dry ground, only use one hand
in box, to mimize across the chest shocks.

if in doubt trip the main house breaker!!!!

get a good book on wiring, and get a knowledgable friend to help, at
least the first time.

wrote:
Why would the light still be hot if when I turn off the breaker it
goes out? I don't understand.

Been there and done that. I had a lamp burn out when I was in the
basement removing a fuse. It sure was an interesting shower of sparks.

It is also possible if there are two circuits in that box, you may turn
one off, but not the other. Normally there would not be two circuits there,
but don't count on it, it's your life.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

wrote:
does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

Never bet that any wiring you did not do yourself is according to code.
You are betting your life and I sure have seen many non-code installations.


for practical purposes as long as lite turns on ok, and then breaker
turns it off, then box should be dead.

getting shocked isnt a good thing, but isnt the end usually.

always wear rubber soled shoes, stand on dry ground, only use one hand
in box, to mimize across the chest shocks.

if in doubt trip the main house breaker!!!!

get a good book on wiring, and get a knowledgable friend to help, at
least the first time.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

I don't know what code allows, but at my front door, I have three switches.
The two for lights inside and outside the door are on one breaker, and the
three-way for the top of the stairs is on another breaker. I learned this
the hard way.

wrote in message
oups.com...
does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

for practical purposes as long as lite turns on ok, and then breaker
turns it off, then box should be dead.

getting shocked isnt a good thing, but isnt the end usually.

always wear rubber soled shoes, stand on dry ground, only use one hand
in box, to mimize across the chest shocks.

if in doubt trip the main house breaker!!!!

get a good book on wiring, and get a knowledgable friend to help, at
least the first time.

What model of neon testlight do you use?

"Kevin Ricks" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

It does not say you can't. Though I think you are supposed to tie the
breaker handles together.

It is not uncommon have 2 or more circuits in a box with multiple
switches.
For example at an entrance where one switch is for a light in the garage
and one switch on a different circuit for the kitchen light.
Disposal/dischwasher is another box that may have 2 circuits.

I have seen a light box being used as a juction box for another ciucuit
etc.
It is especally fun when the neutrals from different circuits are tied
together and you don't have the other circuit turned off and you go to
disconnet the neutrals... BTDT...

FYI - I use a neon testlight, much easier than fumbling with a meter.

Kevin


for practical purposes as long as lite turns on ok, and then breaker
turns it off, then box should be dead.

getting shocked isnt a good thing, but isnt the end usually.

always wear rubber soled shoes, stand on dry ground, only use one hand
in box, to mimize across the chest shocks.

if in doubt trip the main house breaker!!!!

get a good book on wiring, and get a knowledgable friend to help, at
least the first time.

"Bob" wrote in message
...
What model of neon testlight do you use?

I have the made in China model.....
Looks like the one in this article under the using testers section.
http://www.hometime.com/Howto/projec...ric/elec_1.htm
You can get these at just about any hardware store
Almost all the stores carry the same model too....

Kevin

Thanks. I already have those. I thought you were talking about the
non-contact type that you just hold near a wire and it tell you if the wire
is hot.

"Kevin Ricks" wrote in message
t...

"Bob" wrote in message
...
What model of neon testlight do you use?

I have the made in China model.....
Looks like the one in this article under the using testers section.
http://www.hometime.com/Howto/projec...ric/elec_1.htm
You can get these at just about any hardware store
Almost all the stores carry the same model too....

Kevin

wrote in message
ups.com...
I want to replace some light switches in my house with some of the x10
switches that dim and all that automation stuff. I know how to tell if
a light fixture's power is off - the light goes out! Outlets are easy
because I can plug a light in it. But what about the switch to the
light? I have meter, but I am not sure what to put it on to test the
power. Thank you for any help not getting me killed.

When I do this kind of repair I use multiple safety measures:

(1) turn off power. I verify it by attempting to switch the lights on. The
probability of switching off the wrong breaker and the lights just burned
out is small.

(2) I test for electricity with a meter. One probe on a known ground, and
the other probe on the metal parts that I'm going to touch.

(3) I stand/squat on a plastic chair or other insulating material

(4) I avoid touching two different metal parts with two limbs at the same
time. This has become almost an instinct.

(5) I use gloves or pliers with insulation

Often I get lazy and did not use all 5 measures above. Sometimes I test for
(2) with my hand with a quick flick to the wire (of course I make sure I'm
not standing in a tub of water), and sometimes I didn't turn off the power,
but that was when I was younger and bolder.

I'm happy to report that in the past 20 years I have never been shocked or
electrocuted. Before that, it's a different story.

Kevin Ricks wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
...
What model of neon testlight do you use?

I have the made in China model.....
Looks like the one in this article under the using testers section.
http://www.hometime.com/Howto/projec...ric/elec_1.htm
You can get these at just about any hardware store
Almost all the stores carry the same model too....

Kevin
I use the GC inductive voltage detector. I started using it after
encountering just the problem discussed here also often the neutral is
switched instead of the hot or neutral and hot are reversed.
Just a few of the "What in the F---!s" I've seen.
·Two breakers serving the same circuit. Not tied together. Altho' I
can't see how that would work since most breaker boxes I've seen have
alternating legs next to each other.
·Circuit tied directly to the main bus. That was a good one. With the
mains off there were still lights on in the basement. Taking the panel
off we found a circuit clamped directly on the incoming power feed! No
one had a good explanation for that one. Imagine doing that quick short
to see if the circuit is dead test on that one. (My dad used to do
that)
·Neutral tied to conduit ground. A clients kid got shocked pretty bad
with that one. He did flip the garage switch in his bare feet in a
rainstorm but still...
·Ground used as neutral in a 3 way switch situation.
·Soil stack used as neutral return. Guy was too lazy to run two
wires. Made the toilet buzz on the second floor of a house I owned. Got
louder when the lady upstairs used her toaster.
·Neutral and hot tied together, when you flipped the switch, pow. The
lady had been her own electrician! " I did it exactly like the book
said" She was so POed that no amount of explaining could make her calm
down. Fixed the problem and got out ASAP.
BTW I often use a 1500W hair dryer to verify that a circuit will carry
a rated load and to find breakers when I'm by myself. I did have a
"gottcha" moment when the hair dryer I'd thrown out the 2nd floor
window went off when I threw a breaker. Going back upstairs my non
contact said the circuit was still live. Many scratches of the head
later I went out side and the neighbor lady said "I turned off your
hair dryer. It fell out of the 2nd floor bathroom window."
As others have said here, even when you know what you're doing things
can happen.
Richard

thehick wrote:
"I know how to tell if a light fixture's power is off - the
light goes out!"
You don't have the first clue about electricity. Please don't
do anything. You are wrong wrong wrong.
...thehick

ya it would be my luck the light would blow right when I check the
switch
thing is...It can happen, you're right

I have hooked into live wires, so long as you don't connect the two

i've seen electricians (not me)...
change a fuse box to a breaker box without killing supply from power
company

that's knowledge. I understand sometimes, the power company MUST kill
the power as in my case having 60 amps? coming in (old sytle)

I have had 440 volts conduct through my entire body for around...maybe
say...

4 seconds? it felt like 20 seconds, I think I would be dead

but saying, one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, 4
on...

and the weight of my body finally freed both hands from the wire.

my ring burnt my finger, my neckclace burnt my neck

when I got up, I was very very confused and could not talk co-herently
for about 20 mins.

I don't fornicate with electricity, I don't know jack about it, and I
could learn if someone taught me. but that 440 may have very well saved
me from my own hairbrained ideas.

the 440 was an old industrial line, a ladder had cut into that line,
short story..
I had gotten onto the ladder...the line was supposed to be out of
service
BUT IT WON'T

LOL - Too funny. I especially liked the one about the soil stack.

"spudnuty" wrote in message
oups.com...

Kevin Ricks wrote:
"Bob" wrote in message
...
What model of neon testlight do you use?

I have the made in China model.....
Looks like the one in this article under the using testers section.
http://www.hometime.com/Howto/projec...ric/elec_1.htm
You can get these at just about any hardware store
Almost all the stores carry the same model too....

Kevin
I use the GC inductive voltage detector. I started using it after
encountering just the problem discussed here also often the neutral is
switched instead of the hot or neutral and hot are reversed.
Just a few of the "What in the F---!s" I've seen.
·Two breakers serving the same circuit. Not tied together. Altho' I
can't see how that would work since most breaker boxes I've seen have
alternating legs next to each other.
·Circuit tied directly to the main bus. That was a good one. With the
mains off there were still lights on in the basement. Taking the panel
off we found a circuit clamped directly on the incoming power feed! No
one had a good explanation for that one. Imagine doing that quick short
to see if the circuit is dead test on that one. (My dad used to do
that)
·Neutral tied to conduit ground. A clients kid got shocked pretty bad
with that one. He did flip the garage switch in his bare feet in a
rainstorm but still...
·Ground used as neutral in a 3 way switch situation.
·Soil stack used as neutral return. Guy was too lazy to run two
wires. Made the toilet buzz on the second floor of a house I owned. Got
louder when the lady upstairs used her toaster.
·Neutral and hot tied together, when you flipped the switch, pow. The
lady had been her own electrician! " I did it exactly like the book
said" She was so POed that no amount of explaining could make her calm
down. Fixed the problem and got out ASAP.
BTW I often use a 1500W hair dryer to verify that a circuit will carry
a rated load and to find breakers when I'm by myself. I did have a
"gottcha" moment when the hair dryer I'd thrown out the 2nd floor
window went off when I threw a breaker. Going back upstairs my non
contact said the circuit was still live. Many scratches of the head
later I went out side and the neighbor lady said "I turned off your
hair dryer. It fell out of the 2nd floor bathroom window."
As others have said here, even when you know what you're doing things
can happen.
Richard

Bob wrote:
LOL - Too funny. I especially liked the one about the soil stack.

Yah we'd been on vacation for three weeks. I'm sitting on the john on
the 2nd floor and it's buzzing. I flush the toilet and the buzzing gets
quieter. (old fashioned oakem joints in the stack). Got my meter out
and it measured 25 VAC from the flange bolt to a cold water pipe.
Traced the stack upstairs and found the place where the guy had tied
into the vent.
Richard

On 6 Jan 2006 12:45:37 -0800, "spudnuty" wrote:


Bob wrote:
LOL - Too funny. I especially liked the one about the soil stack.

Yah we'd been on vacation for three weeks. I'm sitting on the john on
the 2nd floor and it's buzzing. I flush the toilet and the buzzing gets
quieter. (old fashioned oakem joints in the stack). Got my meter out
and it measured 25 VAC from the flange bolt to a cold water pipe.
Traced the stack upstairs and found the place where the guy had tied
into the vent.

Did you call the guy back to have him touch that spot for personal
electrocution?

"chickenwing" wrote in message
oups.com...

thehick wrote:
"I know how to tell if a light fixture's power is off - the
light goes out!"
You don't have the first clue about electricity. Please don't
do anything. You are wrong wrong wrong.
...thehick

ya it would be my luck the light would blow right when I check the
switch
thing is...It can happen, you're right

I have hooked into live wires, so long as you don't connect the two

i've seen electricians (not me)...
change a fuse box to a breaker box without killing supply from power
company

Are you sure that they didn't remove the meter from the base to cut the
power? Sometimes the meter base box has the main breaker far away from the
panel. I'm not saying it can't be done with power on. I wouldn't do it. OTOH
I routinely mess with a breaker box with power on . I will add circuits,
change breakers etc. without throwing the main.
Kevin

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:48:30 GMT, "Kevin Ricks"
wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...
does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

It does not say you can't.

Even if it did, this would be one of those cases from grammar school
where the child asks, Can I go to the bathroom? and the teacher
replies May I go to the bathroom?

Or do teachers still care about that? In this thread they should.

Though I think you are supposed to tie the
breaker handles together.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 07:02:10 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:48:30 GMT, "Kevin Ricks"
wrote:


wrote in message
groups.com...
does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?

It does not say you can't.

Even if it did, this would be one of those cases from grammar school
where the child asks, Can I go to the bathroom? and the teacher
replies May I go to the bathroom?

Or do teachers still care about that? In this thread they should.

Though I think you are supposed to tie the
breaker handles together.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

In my case (shared neutral), it's just one outlet. I think it'd be
better to rewire it so it gets both hot and neutral from the same
circuit.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take
away the rights of the other 49% - Thomas Jefferson...

BUT the 49% say..that's alright, it was a fair vote.- Levon

Here are a few simple tips to help you:

1) Learn where your circuit breaker switch is, and know which switch
does each outlet.

2) You can purchase a simple fluke, greenly, etc... conductivity meter
to use for checking for voltage without having to touch or open wires.
These "wands" run on typically AAA batteries and a light will turn on
in them if they are next to live conductors.

3) If it is safe to access the wires / terminals you can use a volt
meter (ac) to check for 120Vac on your line. Ensure your meter can
handle upto 120Vac. Place one meter lead on your hot (typically
black), and the other lead on neutral (typically white).

Of course if your dealing with a multi-phase system you can run each
phase with a common neautral wire. This has not been my experience in
residential systems; however, I've not experienced every situation yet.

JW

'does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?'

If it doesn't, can you please explain a 240Vac receptacle to me please.


JW

Here are a few simple tips to help you:

1) Learn where your circuit breaker switch is, and know which switch
does each outlet.

2) You can purchase a simple fluke, greenly, etc... conductivity meter
to use for checking for voltage without having to touch or open wires.
These "wands" run on typically AAA batteries and a light will turn on
in them if they are next to live conductors.

3) If it is safe to access the wires / terminals you can use a volt
meter (ac) to check for 120Vac on your line. Ensure your meter can
handle upto 120Vac. Place one meter lead on your hot (typically
black), and the other lead on neutral (typically white).

Of course if your dealing with a multi-phase system you can run each
phase with a common neautral wire. This has not been my experience in
residential systems; however, I've not experienced every situation yet.

JW

Here are a few simple tips to help you:

1) Learn where your circuit breaker switch is, and know which switch
does each outlet.

2) You can purchase a simple fluke, greenly, etc... conductivity meter
to use for checking for voltage without having to touch or open wires.
These "wands" run on typically AAA batteries and a light will turn on
in them if they are next to live conductors.

3) If it is safe to access the wires / terminals you can use a volt
meter (ac) to check for 120Vac on your line. Ensure your meter can
handle upto 120Vac. Place one meter lead on your hot (typically
black), and the other lead on neutral (typically white).

Of course if your dealing with a multi-phase system you can run each
phase with a common neautral wire. This has not been my experience in
residential systems; however, I've not experienced every situation yet.

JW

'does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?'

If it doesn't, can you please explain a 240Vac receptacle to me please.


JW

"Justin West" wrote in message
oups.com...
'does the code even allow one outlet box to have 2 seperate breakers
powering it?'

If it doesn't, can you please explain a 240Vac receptacle to me please.


Most 240V circuits are powered by a dual breakers that are tied together
with a pin or clip so that if one side trips it will pull the other side off
also.

The OP was referring to having multiple 120V circuits in a box. Most
(novice) people assume that the entire box is dead when they flip one
breaker for the circuit they are working on.... Then after arcing something
or recieving a shock. "Oh! There must be a code vioaltion here!!"

Kevin