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Rob Convery
 
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Default Single light switch controlling 2 lighting circuits

In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by a
single switch.

I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch

I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there are
two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2 lights.

I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with the
X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light switch
to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both circuits

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the switch
to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules thus turning
all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.

Is it just a case of using the switch to turn on relay triggered feeds (thus
isolating each circuit? If so would some normal 240V 3A ones be OK? i.e.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/37495i0.jpg The only limitation with
this is you could not have them dimmable.)

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability of
dimming all lights?

[2 Light Circuit = 100W]
[3 Light Circuit = 150W]


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BigWallop
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Rob Convery" wrote in message
...
In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by a
single switch.

I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch

I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there are
two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2 lights.

I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with the
X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light

switch
to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both

circuits

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the

switch
to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules thus

turning
all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.

Is it just a case of using the switch to turn on relay triggered feeds

(thus
isolating each circuit? If so would some normal 240V 3A ones be OK? i.e.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/37495i0.jpg The only limitation with
this is you could not have them dimmable.)

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability

of
dimming all lights?

[2 Light Circuit = 100W]
[3 Light Circuit = 150W]



Simple answer is no. You need a switch that controls the X10 modules in the
same way as the remote unit would. Using relay switching on this type of
circuit configuration needs controls that cause them to act in the same way
at all times, so one normal on/off switch isn't going to do this. You would
need to use a two gang two way switch system that controls the X10 modules,
and is separated from direct connection with the two lighting circuits. The
X10 modules would also need to be two way switching so that when you operate
them to control the lighting, they also separate themselves from the
switching control of the two gang switch.

It would work just like this. When the two gang switch on the wall is
operated to bring the lights on, the switches would not directly switch the
live feed to the lighting circuits, but would use the X10 modules to do the
actually switching of the lights. When the remote unit is used, it also
uses the X10 modules to do all the switching, and therefore, because they
are two way switches, they can change the supply away from the wall switches
and over to the remote unit to give full control again.

Wouldn't it be easier to use a remote unit wall switch like these:

http://www.alfaglade.co.uk/product_i...0c0c726e6086a0

http://www.trojantel.co.uk/EZSwitch.htm

http://www.letsautomate.com/index.cf...lightswitches&

http://www.seemans.com/new_page_8.htm

http://www.possum.co.uk/ir_light_switch.htm


  #3   Report Post  
Rob Convery
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"BigWallop" wrote in message
. uk...

"Rob Convery" wrote in message
...
In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by
a
single switch.

I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch

I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there
are
two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2 lights.

I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with
the
X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light

switch
to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both

circuits

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the

switch
to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules thus

turning
all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.

Is it just a case of using the switch to turn on relay triggered feeds

(thus
isolating each circuit? If so would some normal 240V 3A ones be OK? i.e.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/37495i0.jpg The only limitation with
this is you could not have them dimmable.)

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability

of
dimming all lights?

[2 Light Circuit = 100W]
[3 Light Circuit = 150W]



Simple answer is no. You need a switch that controls the X10 modules in
the
same way as the remote unit would. Using relay switching on this type of
circuit configuration needs controls that cause them to act in the same
way
at all times, so one normal on/off switch isn't going to do this. You
would
need to use a two gang two way switch system that controls the X10
modules,
and is separated from direct connection with the two lighting circuits.
The
X10 modules would also need to be two way switching so that when you
operate
them to control the lighting, they also separate themselves from the
switching control of the two gang switch.

It would work just like this. When the two gang switch on the wall is
operated to bring the lights on, the switches would not directly switch
the
live feed to the lighting circuits, but would use the X10 modules to do
the
actually switching of the lights. When the remote unit is used, it also
uses the X10 modules to do all the switching, and therefore, because they
are two way switches, they can change the supply away from the wall
switches
and over to the remote unit to give full control again.

Wouldn't it be easier to use a remote unit wall switch like these:

http://www.alfaglade.co.uk/product_i...0c0c726e6086a0

http://www.trojantel.co.uk/EZSwitch.htm

http://www.letsautomate.com/index.cf...lightswitches&

http://www.seemans.com/new_page_8.htm

http://www.possum.co.uk/ir_light_switch.htm



The reason I may as well go to X10 is because i have a projector screen
which is X10 controlled and in the future I am looking to get X10 automated
curtains so X10 light control would be the best way to go.

So essentally i need a wall dimmer that controls the two X10 light modules.
Not quite what I was looking for as the current wall unit already has
another dimmer in it for another lights. 3 Dimmers in 1 unit I think might
be pushing it


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Owain
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rob Convery wrote:
In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by a
single switch.
I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch
I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there are
two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2 lights.
I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with the
X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light switch
to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both circuits


Why do you need X10 - can't you just wire two switches?

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the switch
to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules thus turning
all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.


Use a double pole switch (these are more common in 20A and probably
won't look exactly like a 5A lightswitch - using a single gridswitch may
be a closer aesthetic match) as the 'master' switch. This won't short
the two outputs when the switch is off.

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability of
dimming all lights?
[2 Light Circuit = 100W]
[3 Light Circuit = 150W]



0------|--------lights1,2
/ 0
/ /
o/p from dimmer -----------0 A / B
\ 0
\ |
0------|--------lights3,4,5

Switch A is a SPDT (2-way) lightswitch which selects either lights 1,2
or lights 3,4,5. This ensures that there is always some lights connected
to the dimmer, both from the electrical perspective of not operating the
dimmer on no load, and the safety aspect of having some light on as soon
as the main switch is operated.

Switch B is a SPST (1-way) lightswitch wired between the L1 and L2
terminals of the 2-way switch, and selects all lights regardless of the
position of switch A.

Both switches could be ceiling pull switches if you want to avoid
running new cables to the wall switch.

An alternative might be to use an all on master switch. This needs the
individual switches to be SPDT (2-way) with the master switch connected
to the L2s.



live-----X--------0
| \ sw1
| \
| 0---------light1
| /
| /
| ###0
| #
| #
| #
X--------0
| # \ sw2
| # \
| # 0---------light2
| # /
| # /
| ###0
| #
| #
| ###0
| \ master sw
| \
|----------0


The master on wire is shown ####, X indicates a join.

I would just rewire the halogens properly on separate switches, and not
bother dimming them. Dimming halogens is very inefficient.

Owain


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Rob Convery
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Owain" wrote in message
t...
Rob Convery wrote:
In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by
a single switch.
I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch
I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there
are two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2
lights.
I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with
the X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light
switch to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both
circuits


Why do you need X10 - can't you just wire two switches?

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the
switch to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules
thus turning all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.


Use a double pole switch (these are more common in 20A and probably won't
look exactly like a 5A lightswitch - using a single gridswitch may be a
closer aesthetic match) as the 'master' switch. This won't short the two
outputs when the switch is off.

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability
of dimming all lights?
[2 Light Circuit = 100W]
[3 Light Circuit = 150W]



0------|--------lights1,2
/ 0
/ /
o/p from dimmer -----------0 A / B
\ 0
\ |
0------|--------lights3,4,5

Switch A is a SPDT (2-way) lightswitch which selects either lights 1,2 or
lights 3,4,5. This ensures that there is always some lights connected to
the dimmer, both from the electrical perspective of not operating the
dimmer on no load, and the safety aspect of having some light on as soon
as the main switch is operated.

Switch B is a SPST (1-way) lightswitch wired between the L1 and L2
terminals of the 2-way switch, and selects all lights regardless of the
position of switch A.

Both switches could be ceiling pull switches if you want to avoid running
new cables to the wall switch.

An alternative might be to use an all on master switch. This needs the
individual switches to be SPDT (2-way) with the master switch connected to
the L2s.



live-----X--------0
| \ sw1
| \
| 0---------light1
| /
| /
| ###0
| #
| #
| #
X--------0
| # \ sw2
| # \
| # 0---------light2
| # /
| # /
| ###0
| #
| #
| ###0
| \ master sw
| \
|----------0


The master on wire is shown ####, X indicates a join.

I would just rewire the halogens properly on separate switches, and not
bother dimming them. Dimming halogens is very inefficient.

Owain



I would love to rewire it but that would mean ripping up 3 rooms of carpets
& floorboards, cutting out new channels in the livingroom and then
refinishing / painting it all. Think I would rather just spend £100 or so
and sort it using X10 (X10 due to having other X10 controlled devices and
not wanting another remote)




  #6   Report Post  
Mike Barnes
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In uk.d-i-y, Rob Convery wrote:
In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by a
single switch.

I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch

I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there are
two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2 lights.

I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with the
X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light switch
to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both circuits

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the switch
to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules thus turning
all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.

Is it just a case of using the switch to turn on relay triggered feeds (thus
isolating each circuit? If so would some normal 240V 3A ones be OK? i.e.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/37495i0.jpg


I don't know about the regulatory side of things, but in practice this
would work fine. I have a similar setup for the outside lights here,
which are all turned on by a wall switch, and just some of them turned
on by a PIR.

The only limitation with
this is you could not have them dimmable.)

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability of
dimming all lights?


I'm not sure if understand you correctly but clearly the relay coil
won't respond reliably to a dimmed input signal. But there's no reason
why it shouldn't switch a dimmed signal. Could you explain more fully?

--
Mike Barnes
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Rob Convery
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability
of
dimming all lights?


I'm not sure if understand you correctly but clearly the relay coil
won't respond reliably to a dimmed input signal. But there's no reason
why it shouldn't switch a dimmed signal. Could you explain more fully?

What I meant is the relay solution is 1 but will not enable wall mounting
dimming. Is there solution that will.

Currently I think I am going to go slightly differently where I don't have 2
seperate curcuits but the 2nd set of lights which are located above the
projector screen can be isolated i.e. turned off when the projector is on or
light the other lights when the projector is off.

TO do this I need an X10 module to go in the light switch which supports
wall mounted dimmers and then an X10 module which acts as a 240v relay


  #8   Report Post  
Mike Barnes
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In uk.d-i-y, Rob Convery wrote:

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability
of
dimming all lights?


I'm not sure if understand you correctly but clearly the relay coil
won't respond reliably to a dimmed input signal. But there's no reason
why it shouldn't switch a dimmed signal. Could you explain more fully?

What I meant is the relay solution is 1 but will not enable wall mounting
dimming. Is there solution that will.


I'm still not sure I understand, but assuming you want to use X10 for
switching and your existing wall switch for dimming and master off...
you could use two X10 modules to drive relays, and use the contacts of
those relays to connect the dimmed output from the wall switch to the
lamps.

If that's not what you're after, forget I spoke...

--
Mike Barnes
  #9   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rob Convery wrote:
In my living room I currently have a single light which is controlled by a
single switch.

I have put in a number of halogen lights which now all trigger off the
single switch

I am looking to put some X10 control onto these lights such that there are
two circuits: Circuit 1 controls 3 lights & Circuit 2 controls 2 lights.

I am more than happy about how to convert the single circuit to 2 with the
X10 moules turning on the lights but I would also like the old light switch
to still work i.e. flick the old light switch and it turns on both circuits

The bit I am struggling on is how to wire this is that if you put the switch
to both circuits then it will cause a short on the X10 modules thus turning
all lights on when either X10 circuit is switched on.

Is it just a case of using the switch to turn on relay triggered feeds (thus
isolating each circuit? If so would some normal 240V 3A ones be OK? i.e.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/Full/37495i0.jpg The only limitation with
this is you could not have them dimmable.)

Is there a way of doing this keeping the main dimmer with the capability of
dimming all lights?

[2 Light Circuit = 100W]
[3 Light Circuit = 150W]



An easy way to do this, if you lose the dimmer, is to run the fitting
to switch cable at low voltage, and use all cores for control. Fit a
miniature transformer wherever the mains supply is, ie fitting or wall
switch, and pass 6v etc upto the fittings. There 2 relays turn switched
lv to switched mains.

Another way is to fit a --- cant think of the name, but its a type of
relay with multiple positions on a rotary cam. Use a momentary press
switch on the wall, push once and the relay advances one click. Your
relay has 4 positions, off, a on, b on, both on.

Etc... I'd forget dimmers in most cases. If you split your halos into 2
banks with power ratio 2:1 then you'll get 3 power settings, 1/3, 2/3,
1. Mix the bulb positioning between each sircuit so that each setting
gives reasonable light distribution.


NT

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