On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 10:10:26 -0500, Robert Haar
wrote:

On 2005/12/30 3:23 AM, "mm" wrote:

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:28:10 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Sure why not, people use turkey deep fryers, charcoal bbq grills all the

OOps. What's wrong with turkey dep fryers?

Nothing, if used properly. Part of that is outside and well away from any
structure. Every year, there are news reports of some idiot who burned down
his house using a turkey fryer in a garage or next to a house. The danger is
that the oil can easily catch fire and flash over.

There may be different types of turkey fryers. The ones popular around here
run on propane and can easily overheat the oil.


What happens is, dumb-asses put water or ice-encrusted turkeys in the
hot oil, which bursts into steam. The tiny little steam explosion
atomized little puffs of oil, which promptly burst into flames, and
suddenly your turkey fryer is doing double-duty as a rocket engine.

YOu can do the same trick by dumping a tablespoon of water
into a frypan while frying bacon, if you feel like dying painfully.

I have hooked up a generator in the dark during the rain (outside) and
I can tell you it is not the same thing as doing it for practice on a
nice sunny day.

I am reminidng you to remember the human factors.
You will be tired and under stress.

If you do everything perfectly you may be able to run the gen in the
basement. If you make a mistake it could be a big problem, fire CO
whatever.

Do you trust yoursefl to do it exactly right in the dark and under
stress?

Mark

On 29 Dec 2005 19:57:24 -0800, "dean" wrote:

Ok here's the deal. I have another generator, which runs the rest of my
house. Its a honda 2000i, I can't hear it from the house when I run it
in the garage with the door open. I wired it up to a transfer switch
with 6 circuits and it works perfectly.

Problem is, it does not have 220V. The only thing in my house that
needs that is the well pump. And I dunno about you, but water is the
MOST important thing to me after a day of blackout.

Hence my original question. I am here getting opinions and will act on
them when this thread is done. I know for sure I can run my 2000i in
the basement and make zero smoke and just a little smell. I just need a
220V generator. I dont see the big deal about running it for a moment -
after all how long does it take a well pump to provide 100 galons?

dean

A water storage tank is probably cheaper than a generator.

Cant we have a conversation here without assuming everyone is a
complete ****wit? People aren't necessarily stupid just because they
are strangers online.


We don't assume stupidity because OP is a stranger, we assume
stupidity because OP wants to do a stupid thing. to wit: running
a generator in the basement.

There are ways to run an engine in a basement safely.
All of those ways are more work and more money than
finding a different solution to the problem.

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
: Why is it so dangerous? I know about CO and fumes. Its not
going to be
: on when I'm not there. Its not going to run when I'm upstairs.
Its just
: going to sit there most of the year doing nothing, and get used
maybe
: once a year for 5 minutes, while I stand there and watch it.
What's the
: big deal?
:
: The fan mentioned above is a good idea, but it will have to be
run by
: the generator
:
Boy, this thread's drawn some strange ones out of the woodwork,
but they're all I think meaningful if tongue in cheek or
sarcastic.

The problem is CO. It's odorless, colorless and undetectable
unlike the remaining fumes that the generator exhaust pushes out,
which are quite smelly. It'll also collect in "pockets" and one
won't know they're breathing it, even after the generator is
turned off. Look up CO poisoning if you'd like more details on
its effects, etc.

The fan would help, but not eliminate the CO problem. CO could
still collect in the furnace compartments, any 3-sided enclosure
the fan doesn't evacuate. Less dangerous with a fan, but still
not eliminated.

Isn't there any way you could locate the generator where you
could push it outside a door, close the door, and hopefully not
get the exhause pushed back into the basement?

If you really have to have it inside like that, then get hold of
an exhaust kit to vent the exhaust thru a door or the wall to the
outside. It's not foolproof, but it'd be a lot better.

I'd vote for a way to get it jsut outside a door to run it.
Maybe in its own enclosure you could push it into when you need
it. Then you also wouldn't have the issue of having fuel leaks,
spills, oil leaks, overflows, etc. in the basement.
Plus, if a generator ever goes whooey-belly-up on you, it's
quite likely to emit so much and so strong smoke that you may not
be able toget to it to shut it down or fight a small blaze around
it because of the smoke.
I had a lawn tractor barf its oily guts onto my driveway a
couple summers ago because it overheated and I'd hate to have had
that in my basement: No fire, but a tremendous, harsh billowing
cloud of smoke flew up around it for about 5 minutes until it
cooled enough and the smoke started to disperse. No flames, but
the muffler was well coated with oil when I could get near it
again.

I'd seriously opt for some method to at least get it outside a
door. Maybe a quick, cheap little covered space for it with
enough sides to keep the snow out. Doesn't matter if it runs 5
minutes at a time or 5 hours.

HTH,

Pop

"Dan C" wrote in message
news : On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 16:28:44 -0800, dean wrote:
:
: Why is it so dangerous? I know about CO and fumes. Its not
going to be
....
The rest of us will
: laugh at you on the evening news.

Speak for yourself, blatherskite. There is no "rest of us" on a
ng.

OK, then here's the solution. Get a battery backup for the pump.
IF you only need it for 5 minutes and a 2k genny can run the
pump, a battery backup can certainlyu handle it. End of fuss and
stupid ideas. You're beginning to look like a troll and this
thread's about to completely turn on you.

ARE you trolling?

"dean" wrote in message
oups.com...
: Ok here's the deal. I have another generator, which runs the
rest of my
: house. Its a honda 2000i, I can't hear it from the house when I
run it
: in the garage with the door open. I wired it up to a transfer
switch
: with 6 circuits and it works perfectly.
:
: Problem is, it does not have 220V. The only thing in my house
that
: needs that is the well pump. And I dunno about you, but water
is the
: MOST important thing to me after a day of blackout.
:
: Hence my original question. I am here getting opinions and will
act on
: them when this thread is done. I know for sure I can run my
2000i in
: the basement and make zero smoke and just a little smell. I
just need a
: 220V generator. I dont see the big deal about running it for a
moment -
: after all how long does it take a well pump to provide 100
galons?
:
: dean
:

m Ransley wrote:

Nick its closer to 1/3 heat loss.

Your postings might make more sense with more context. If you are talking
about "waste heat," burning 1.08 gallons of gasoline with a fuel value of
135K Btu in 4 hours at the 1600 W rated load makes 6.4 kWh (21.8K Btu) of
electricity and 113.2K Btu of heat, 100(113.2K/135K) = 84% of the total.
We can safely recover almost all of that with an EU2000 in the basement.

Pipe it to the top, no the bottom is better as you have no condensation
provisions in your pipeing, it could fill with water ruining the motor.

I already answered that concern from you. The top is better: warm gases
rise and counterflow heat exchangers are more efficient and condensation
will not occur until the pipe enters the water heater.
It may be time to ignore you now.

Depressurise the room, exuast the gas inside the building,

Outside the building. Keep up!

Nick

"buffalobill" wrote in message
ups.com...
perhaps instead, see if your pump can be more safely plugged into a
110v inverter you run off your car's battery?

Sure, but it won't do much for his 240v pump. That is the whole point of
it, he needs 240v for pump alone.

The easiest, safest solution is the proper extension cord to the
garage.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
The easiest, safest solution is the proper extension cord to the
garage.

IF the garage is detached from the house.

wrote:

wrote:

"Maybe Nick will be along to help you with Cogen. "

Now that's a good one! LOL!

Cogen saves half the fuel's heating value, which US utilities normally
waste. Not so in the rest of the world, nor in the US in the 1930s. Many
buildings were heated this way before utilities stole the show.

Yes, in the small town where I grew up, most of the downtown was heated by a
single steam plant when I was a kid. By the time I was a teenager, the
steam plant was gone.
--
derek

Yes you can.
No you should not.

If this is only to run a well pump during short power outages you could
look at a 12 v battery (car or boat) and an inverter. Much safer.

It may be feasible for you to use one of the windows as a hatch to
access the generator in a nice housing outside.

Tony Wesley wrote:
wrote:


When will Mr. Wizzard try plugging his EU2000 into a wall socket? :-)


Nick, I think that's one experiment that you should try. With your own
generator.


That works here.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Tony Wesley wrote:

When will Mr. Wizzard try plugging his EU2000 into a wall socket? :-)

Nick, I think that's one experiment that you should try.

I don't own an EU2000, but I wouldn't hesitate, with a 1 meg resistor.

Nick

Ok all, OP back again. I thank you all for convincing me that my
original idea was indeed rather stupid. I was not trolling. I am not
even sure what that means. I apologize if I lashed out at some of you.

What I'll do is get another generator, one that's 240V, and when the
time comes I'll just have to carry/wheel it outside over to the
basement window and run a cable through the window. It may never
happen, or not so much to be a big pain - better than not having water
though.

Thanks for the ideas and comments.

Dean

dean wrote:
I only want to use it for a few minutes to run the well pump. I want to
keep it in the basement. I'm assuming that if I open the windows and
start it (assuming its a new generator), I will not be in any major
danger.

It doesn't matter how big your basement is. One gallon of gasoline
vaporised is roughly equivalent to 10 sticks of dynamite. Enough to
open all of the windows in your house with tremendous heat.



Alternatively I have to trudge outside with it through deep snow
(usually we get blackouts after such a thing), plonk it down and run
the cable through the window, which I do not want to do.

TIA!

Dean


Or, your family could come trudging through the snow to see your
headstone and wish you had just put a water storage tank in the
basement. OR, if you need running water, put a tank in the attic and
let gravity do it's thing.

Tom in KY, Just Say No.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:50:20 -0500, Pop wrote:

Why is it so dangerous? I know about CO and fumes. Its not

The rest of us will laugh at you on the evening news.

Speak for yourself, blatherskite. There is no "rest of us" on a
ng.

Well of course there is, silly. Everyone else besides the original
dip**** is "the rest of us". Simple, no?

Are you related to that halfwit, or something?

--
If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Linux Registered User #327951

wrote in message
...
wrote:

"Maybe Nick will be along to help you with Cogen. "

Now that's a good one! LOL!

Cogen saves half the fuel's heating value, which US utilities normally
waste.
Not so in the rest of the world, nor in the US in the 1930s. Many
buildings
were heated this way before utilities stole the show. Small cogen is
coming
back big as natural gas CHP, with plans for Honda engines heating water in
10,000-20,000 UK kitchens.

Initial cost + running costs / lifespan - disposal price = true cost.

Let me know if that saves you any money.

Leaving the window open sounds like a stupid idea. Warm air rises and goes
out the window. Cold air rushes in to replace it. Carbon monoxide generally
builds up along the floor and stays there. You could asphyxiate and freeze
to death at the same time.

Properly, designed, there's a change it might work. Low RPM, water cooling,
plant outside and the right type of fuel might pencil out to something
competitive with utility rates, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Ask someone
with lots of experience with this sort of thing like that guy from Alaska.
Chances are, he has worked out a lot of the bugs.

JoeSP wrote:

Initial cost + running costs / lifespan - disposal price = true cost.

I got 5.9 cents/kWh, ignoring interest, and assuming the $899 EU2000
wears out in 10,000 hours with no disposal value. But can we buy
a $129 cylinder replacement assembly after 10K hours?

Leaving the window open sounds like a stupid idea.

I suggested piping the exhaust out a window, after it passes down through
a natural gas water heater in a depressurized basement enclosure.

Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and stays there.

With almost the same molecular weight, it mixes well with air.

Properly, designed, there's a change it might work.

More than a change.

Nick

a small gas engine puts out alot of carbon monoxide,, and that stuff
kill humans.... so dont be a dumb ass and kill yourself. just opening a
window wont vent it out. i got a furnace blower in my garage that blows
outside and a 8 inch inlet hose on it.the outlet is air tight in the
wall.. i put it on tailpipes of cars or lawnmowers to run them inside in
the winter and sometimes it gets quite stinky, you need to have another
air inlet in the room open. lucas

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

Nick you got 5.9 cents kwh on a EU 2000 for producing electricity, Id
like to see your numbers. To get 10000 hrs life it needs to run at half
load and near 1800 rpm

"Dan C" wrote in message
news : On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 12:50:20 -0500, Pop wrote:
:
: Why is it so dangerous? I know about CO and fumes. Its not
:
: The rest of us will laugh at you on the evening news.
:
: Speak for yourself, blatherskite. There is no "rest of us"
on a
: ng.
:
: Well of course there is, silly. Everyone else besides the
original
: dip**** is "the rest of us". Simple, no?

No. Wrong. I don't need you to think for me; therefore, since
I don't think like you do, I am not part of the "rest" of your
comment. If tinw is new to you, then you're pretty ignorant yet.
Look it up, iggie. So speak for yourself.



:
: Are you related to that halfwit, or something?
:
: --
: If you're not on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
: Linux Registered User #327951
:

m Ransley wrote:

Nick you got 5.9 cents kwh on a EU 2000 for producing electricity. Id
like to see your numbers.

You've already seen them. Keep up.

To get 10000 hrs life it needs to run at half load and near 1800 rpm

I disagree. How would you prove that? :-)

Nick

Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and stays
there.

Not correct. CO mixes quite well with breathable air. It's propane pools
along the floor.

It's generally deadly mistake to put anything that that generates CO in a
closed space without having thought-out and well-designed ventilation in
place FIRST. Most portable generators are not designed for indoor use.
LISTEN to that advice.

Bill Kearney wrote:
Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and stays
there.


Not correct. CO mixes quite well with breathable air. It's propane pools
along the floor.

It's generally deadly mistake to put anything that that generates CO in a
closed space without having thought-out and well-designed ventilation in
place FIRST. Most portable generators are not designed for indoor use.
LISTEN to that advice.



Although I would never recommend a portable generator indoors, a
correctly installed outside vented exhaust would greatly reduce the
possibility of not waking up the next morning. It's best to put it in
the garage and leave the garage door open, or build a shed for it
outdoors. We have a portable backup gen in the garage and pipe the
exhaust outdoors.

--
Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

wrote in message
...
m Ransley wrote:

Nick you got 5.9 cents kwh on a EU 2000 for producing electricity. Id
like to see your numbers.

You've already seen them. Keep up.


Show how you arrived at it. With the rated load for a EU2000 of 1600W, it
uses a gallon in 4 hours (1/4 gallon in an hour) Abt 50 cents an hour to
produce 1.6 kwh. Now add depreciation.

At 1/4 rated load of 400 W the running time is 15 hours. Abt 13 cents to
produce 400 W.

In "Bill Kearney" writes:

Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and stays
there.

Not correct. CO mixes quite well with breathable air. It's propane pools
along the floor.

Indeed! There are two related issues here.

a) the ability of one gas to "mix" (term used a bit
loosely) with others. At one extreme, for example,
if you pour cooking oil into water there's very
little mixing, and you've got a rpetty clear
line between the two.

(Yes, there _is_ some oil mixed in with the
water lower down, but it's a pretty small percentage).

b) the density of one gas compared to the others.
The lighter ones tend to want to go upwards, but
if the difference is small, they'll stay together.

Now...

1) Molecular density of air:

Nitrogen (N2) is (14*2) = 28
Oxygen (O2) is (16*2) - 32

(note that they're pretty close, so there's
no "huge" differential pulling them apart).

WAG, since O2 is 19% of air (call it 20)
and N2 is 80%, and ignoring the small noise
from dissolving...

28 * 80 = 2,240
32 * 20 = 640

2,880

or... molecular weight of air is about 29.

So... let's see what CO is like.

Carbon = 12, Oxygen = 16, therefor CO = 28

That's pretty close to ambient air, so it hangs around.

Now in regards to the other stuff, and why
propane is a _serious_ fire hazard indoors,
and methane (natural gas) is much safer:

Propane = C3H8, so (12*3) + (1*8) = 44. That's
much, much, heavier than room air, so propane
sinks and stayd in the house/basement.

Natural gas = methane = C1H4, so (12*1) + (1*4) = 16.

That's a lot _lighter_ than air so it quickly
rises and dissipates.

Now neither claim is perfect, of course, Some propane
does mix and go up and out, while some methane
mixes and stays around, but the percentages are
pretty weighted...

--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

"danny burstein" wrote in message
...
In "Bill Kearney"
writes:

Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and stays
there.

Not correct. CO mixes quite well with breathable air. It's propane pools
along the floor.

Indeed! There are two related issues here.

a) the ability of one gas to "mix" (term used a bit
loosely) with others. At one extreme, for example,
if you pour cooking oil into water there's very
little mixing, and you've got a rpetty clear
line between the two.

(Yes, there _is_ some oil mixed in with the
water lower down, but it's a pretty small percentage).

b) the density of one gas compared to the others.
The lighter ones tend to want to go upwards, but
if the difference is small, they'll stay together.

Now...

1) Molecular density of air:

Nitrogen (N2) is (14*2) = 28
Oxygen (O2) is (16*2) - 32

(note that they're pretty close, so there's
no "huge" differential pulling them apart).

WAG, since O2 is 19% of air (call it 20)
and N2 is 80%, and ignoring the small noise
from dissolving...

28 * 80 = 2,240
32 * 20 = 640

2,880

or... molecular weight of air is about 29.

So... let's see what CO is like.

Carbon = 12, Oxygen = 16, therefor CO = 28

That's pretty close to ambient air, so it hangs around.

Now in regards to the other stuff, and why
propane is a _serious_ fire hazard indoors,
and methane (natural gas) is much safer:

Propane = C3H8, so (12*3) + (1*8) = 44. That's
much, much, heavier than room air, so propane
sinks and stayd in the house/basement.

Natural gas = methane = C1H4, so (12*1) + (1*4) = 16.

That's a lot _lighter_ than air so it quickly
rises and dissipates.

Now neither claim is perfect, of course, Some propane
does mix and go up and out, while some methane
mixes and stays around, but the percentages are
pretty weighted...

--


OK, OK! Enough already, I was mistaken. Other poisonous gases are heavier
than air, but apparently CO isn't one of them.

"JoeSP" wrote in message
news:axAtf.28245$OU5.1473@clgrps13...

"danny burstein" wrote in message
...
In "Bill Kearney"
writes:

Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and stays
there.

Not correct. CO mixes quite well with breathable air. It's propane
pools
along the floor.

Indeed! There are two related issues here.

a) the ability of one gas to "mix" (term used a bit
loosely) with others. At one extreme, for example,
if you pour cooking oil into water there's very
little mixing, and you've got a rpetty clear
line between the two.

(Yes, there _is_ some oil mixed in with the
water lower down, but it's a pretty small percentage).

b) the density of one gas compared to the others.
The lighter ones tend to want to go upwards, but
if the difference is small, they'll stay together.

Now...

1) Molecular density of air:

Nitrogen (N2) is (14*2) = 28
Oxygen (O2) is (16*2) - 32

(note that they're pretty close, so there's
no "huge" differential pulling them apart).

WAG, since O2 is 19% of air (call it 20)
and N2 is 80%, and ignoring the small noise
from dissolving...

28 * 80 = 2,240
32 * 20 = 640

2,880

or... molecular weight of air is about 29.

So... let's see what CO is like.

Carbon = 12, Oxygen = 16, therefor CO = 28

That's pretty close to ambient air, so it hangs around.

Now in regards to the other stuff, and why
propane is a _serious_ fire hazard indoors,
and methane (natural gas) is much safer:

Propane = C3H8, so (12*3) + (1*8) = 44. That's
much, much, heavier than room air, so propane
sinks and stayd in the house/basement.

Natural gas = methane = C1H4, so (12*1) + (1*4) = 16.

That's a lot _lighter_ than air so it quickly
rises and dissipates.

Now neither claim is perfect, of course, Some propane
does mix and go up and out, while some methane
mixes and stays around, but the percentages are
pretty weighted...

--


OK, OK! Enough already, I was mistaken. Other poisonous gases are heavier
than air, but apparently CO isn't one of them.

Okay, ready for one more bit?

CO2 *is* heavier than air. With a molecular weight of 44, it sinks to the
floor pretty much. Although not as toxic as CO, it will displace air and
sufficate. Perhaps you just mixed (pun) the two gasses up?

daestrom

I've been wishing someone would come up with that! Good
analysis, and understandable too! Thanks.

Pop

"danny burstein" wrote in message
...
: In "Bill Kearney"
writes:
:
: Carbon monoxide generally builds up along the floor and
stays
: there.
:
: Not correct. CO mixes quite well with breathable air. It's
propane pools
: along the floor.
:
: Indeed! There are two related issues here.
:
: a) the ability of one gas to "mix" (term used a bit
: loosely) with others. At one extreme, for example,
: if you pour cooking oil into water there's very
: little mixing, and you've got a rpetty clear
: line between the two.
:
: (Yes, there _is_ some oil mixed in with the
: water lower down, but it's a pretty small percentage).
:
: b) the density of one gas compared to the others.
: The lighter ones tend to want to go upwards, but
: if the difference is small, they'll stay together.
:
: Now...
:
: 1) Molecular density of air:
:
: Nitrogen (N2) is (14*2) = 28
: Oxygen (O2) is (16*2) - 32
:
: (note that they're pretty close, so there's
: no "huge" differential pulling them apart).
:
: WAG, since O2 is 19% of air (call it 20)
: and N2 is 80%, and ignoring the small noise
: from dissolving...
:
: 28 * 80 = 2,240
: 32 * 20 = 640
:
: 2,880
:
: or... molecular weight of air is about 29.
:
: So... let's see what CO is like.
:
: Carbon = 12, Oxygen = 16, therefor CO = 28
:
: That's pretty close to ambient air, so it hangs around.
:
: Now in regards to the other stuff, and why
: propane is a _serious_ fire hazard indoors,
: and methane (natural gas) is much safer:
:
: Propane = C3H8, so (12*3) + (1*8) = 44. That's
: much, much, heavier than room air, so propane
: sinks and stayd in the house/basement.
:
: Natural gas = methane = C1H4, so (12*1) + (1*4) = 16.
:
: That's a lot _lighter_ than air so it quickly
: rises and dissipates.
:
: Now neither claim is perfect, of course, Some propane
: does mix and go up and out, while some methane
: mixes and stays around, but the percentages are
: pretty weighted...
:
: --
: __________________________________________________ ___
: Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
:
: [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"JoeSP" wrote in message
news:axAtf.28245$OU5.1473@clgrps13...



OK, OK! Enough already, I was mistaken. Other poisonous gases are heavier
than air, but apparently CO isn't one of them.

Okay, ready for one more bit?

CO2 *is* heavier than air. With a molecular weight of 44, it sinks to the
floor pretty much. Although not as toxic as CO, it will displace air and
sufficate. Perhaps you just mixed (pun) the two gasses up?

daestrom

One question: what's CO2 got to do with this discussion?

Nicks numbers are wrong again ol senile nick, if it was that cheap to
generate electricity Id buy a thousand hondas and make a fortune selling
to industry. I pay .125 kwh soon to be .15kwh. Aint No Way a honda can
do it cheaper nik. Re run your numbers nicky, At worst case Id but a
honda, convert it to NG and disconnect the utility. it aint gonna
happen, nor will 10000 hrs at 3600 rpm. Elkryder is getting only 1000
hrs off a superior water cooled 2 cilinder 3600 rpm Honda, And he junks
one a year. Everyone I know says 3600 rpm hondas good for 3-5000 max. As
I said run it 50% load =1800 rpm and 10000 is doable. Google for your
evidence of truth and fact. and quit posting bs

An Eu 2000 uses 1.1 gal in 4 hrs at 1600w, its even worse than 1gph. If
it was remotely possible id think you nick would of had a few running
selling juice to everyone by now. Go back to class nick

"JoeSP" wrote in message
news:1tItf.17800$AP5.3677@edtnps84...

"daestrom" wrote in message
...

"JoeSP" wrote in message
news:axAtf.28245$OU5.1473@clgrps13...



OK, OK! Enough already, I was mistaken. Other poisonous gases are
heavier than air, but apparently CO isn't one of them.

Okay, ready for one more bit?

CO2 *is* heavier than air. With a molecular weight of 44, it sinks to
the floor pretty much. Although not as toxic as CO, it will displace air
and sufficate. Perhaps you just mixed (pun) the two gasses up?

daestrom

One question: what's CO2 got to do with this discussion?

What does CO have to do with it?

Both are products of combustion of any fuel that has carbon in it (such as
fossil fuel running in a generator). Either one, if allowed to accumulate
in a closed space (such as a basement) can be deadly.

daestrom

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 21:15:24 -0800, squarei4dtoolguy wrote:


dean wrote:
I only want to use it for a few minutes to run the well pump. I want to
keep it in the basement. I'm assuming that if I open the windows and
start it (assuming its a new generator), I will not be in any major
danger.

It doesn't matter how big your basement is. One gallon of gasoline
vaporised is roughly equivalent to 10 sticks of dynamite. Enough to
open all of the windows in your house with tremendous heat.

Only if perfectly mixed with air. I have an "infinite" supply of gas in
my basement too, perfectly mixed with air will make the gasoline look
petty. Many have 275 gallons of fuel oil in their basements as well as 40
gallons of gaoline sitting in their driveway too. There are very good
reasons not to do this, but an explosion is way down the list.

--
Keith

Nick we would like to see how you arrived at a operating cost of 5.9cent
per kwh for a Honda EU 2000, everyone else arrives with a cost many
times that amount. At 4000 hr life, 3600 rpm, 2.25$ a gallon fuel I
come up with apx 1.56$ per kwh. Alot different than your Magical dream
of 5.9cent kwh number. No you never posted them. Also document a EU
2000 that can even possibly run 10000 hrs at full load-3600 rpm.

m Ransley wrote:

Nick we would like to see how you arrived at a operating cost of 5.9cent
per kwh for a Honda EU 2000...

You've already seen it, but I wonder... Somebody wrote that most
of the mechanical parts that wear in an EU1000 can be replaced
with a $129 cylinder assembly. Is the EU2000 also like that?

Article 106218 of alt.energy.homepower:
From:
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,alt.energy.homepower
Subject: Honda eu 2000 Generator
Date: 7 Dec 2005 07:44:20 -0500
Organization: Villanova University

With a 125K Btu/gallon high heating value and a 10,000 hour engine lifetime,
Honda EU2000 cogen looks less economical: if we burn 1.08 gallons of gasoline
with a fuel value of 135K Btu in 4 hours at the 1600 W rated load and make
6.4 kWh (21.8K Btu) of electricity and 113.2K Btu of heat (another 33.2 kWh,
ie 39.6 kWh total) and the heat replaces electric resistance and the Honda
costs $899 (mayberrys.com) and wear adds $0.09/h, ie 5.6 cents/kWh, this kind
of cogen only seems to make sense at an off-road gas price of $1.75/gallon if
electricity costs more than 100x$1.75/39.6+5.6 = 10.7 cents/kWh.

Nick

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Nick we would like to see how you arrived at a operating cost of 5.9cent
per kwh for a Honda EU 2000, everyone else arrives with a cost many
times that amount. At 4000 hr life, 3600 rpm, 2.25$ a gallon fuel I
come up with apx 1.56$ per kwh. Alot different than your Magical dream
of 5.9cent kwh number. No you never posted them. Also document a EU
2000 that can even possibly run 10000 hrs at full load-3600 rpm.

Yeah, Nick was way off but I come up with less than what you got.
An error in my calculations?

Using Nick's 1.08 gallons for a 4 hour run at 1.6KW

That is, .27 gallons per hour at $2.25 would be 60.75 cents for 1.6KW.

That would be 38 cents for a KW hour.

$899 depreciated over 4000 hours = 22.5 cents.

Total = 60.5 cents per hour + oil changes. (and everything works according
to specification).

Hmm, looks like a little problem of a slipped decimal point using that
number.

Rich256 wrote:

Yeah, Nick was way off...

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Nick