I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I want
to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
store.

Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279

My basic questions are;

1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy? I never heard of them

If it matters,

- This is a backup emergency generator only. No special uses.
- I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
- My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.

Thanks

I cant vouch for the brand names, but basically, watts are watts. If
all you need is 3500 watts, then thats all you need to buy. I
personally have a 5550 watt unit for a fridge and freezer. I also run
my furnace with the generator, but I dont know where you are located
and if you need a furnace. Remember, the wiring should be done with a
proper transfer switch, or by using extension cords from each appliance
to the generator. DO NOT try and backfeed the power into the house
with a male to male extension, or a dryer outlet back-feed situation.



Bill wrote:
I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I want
to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
store.

Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279

My basic questions are;

1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy? I never heard of them

If it matters,

- This is a backup emergency generator only. No special uses.
- I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
- My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.

Thanks

Get the coleman it has a chance of lasting. For 279, you cant get much,
a motor you are lucky to get 250 hs out of and voltage that will vary
from probably 135-90v or worse, good motors are 250 good gen heads more
than 250, and the frame and tank cost.

If you need 220volt check the 3500 unit. I know the Coleman will give you
220v I think the 3500 unit is 110 only. 220 is needed if you are hooking it
up to your service panel.
"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I want
to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
store.

Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279

My basic questions are;

1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy? I never heard of
them

If it matters,

- This is a backup emergency generator only. No special uses.
- I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
- My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.

Thanks

"Bill" wrote in message
.. .
I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I
want
to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in the
store.

Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279

My basic questions are;

1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy? I never heard of
them


I can't comment on the brand names , but the more watts the beter. The 3500
may not start a well pump if you have one, probably will not run an electric
water heater.

One thing to look at is to get one with a large gas tank. Friend of mine
had a gen with a small tank and had to check on it about every hour or two
during the run time during one winter ice storm outage.

Years ago, during an emergency, I bought what I could find, and ended
up with a 5,000 watt generator (2 phase, about 20 amps per phase). I
wired a generator panel with an isolation switch so I can give power to
the kitchen, furnace, and sump pump. It has a 5 gallon tank, and uses
about 1 gallon per hour. I have used it a few times. I mention this
because:

1) If you put 5 gallons in the tank, and the power comes back on after
1 hour, you have 4 gallons left in the tank. Gasoline does not keep, so
you have to use it or drain it out.

2) I saw a comment a long time ago that someone had a 2,500 watt
generator, and could run it all day on 1 gallon. Probably hyperbole,
but you waste a lot of gas if you don't use all the power.

3) You need to balance the load on your generator. 3500 watts is still
15 amps per phase. As long as you don't start both refridgerators at
the same time, you should be ok (start-up current is large, but
generators do have the ability to exceed the rated output for a short
period of time for just such a purpose).

4) Some time spent wiring on a nice day sure beats running cords all
over the place on a lousy day when the power fails. It is so
convenient, even my wife can hook it up in an emergency (just kidding
about the wife part). I ran a 30 amp circuit for the generator into the
Garage, where it can sit protected from the elements when running
(garage door open). Hardwire is the only way you can supply generator
power to the furnace.

Tokai writes:

Years ago, during an emergency, I bought what I could find, and ended
up with a 5,000 watt generator (2 phase, about 20 amps per phase).

That's not 2-phase, but single phase with two legs of opposite polarity.

Richard J Kinch wrote:
That's not 2-phase, but single phase with two legs of opposite polarity.

True but if one is going to nitpick then one can *really* nitpick and say
that from the point of view of the neutral it *is* two phases that are 180°
apart. Phase doesn't have to mean 120° apart.

Steve Kraus writes:

That's not 2-phase, but single phase with two legs of opposite
polarity.

True but if one is going to nitpick then one can *really* nitpick and
say that from the point of view of the neutral it *is* two phases that
are 180ø apart. Phase doesn't have to mean 120ø apart.

It's not a nitpick. 2-phase means something, but not what you said.

Bill wrote:

I have a decent sized "costso" gift certificate for Christmas, which I
want to apply towards a portable generator.... I have 2 basic choices in
the store.

Coleman Powermate 5500 Watt ~ $550
Nikota 3500 Watt ~ $279

My basic questions are;

1. What does 3500 vs. 5500 Watts get me? (generally speaking)
2. If 3500 is enough, is Nikota a brand I should buy? I never heard of
them

If it matters,

- This is a backup emergency generator only. No special uses.
- I have 2 refridgerators, but I could condense it down to 1 if I had to.
- My stove and oven are gas, so I won't need this for those.

Thanks

Hey, please dont multipost, crosspost instead. Its really annoying to find
half the responses to a post in one group and days later discover the other
half of the answers in another group. you posted this same article in
alt.home.repair and then again in alt.energy.homepower
Make one post and put both groups in it with a follow up to one group only.

See http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/xpost.html

Eric

"Tokai" wrote in message
ups.com...
Years ago, during an emergency, I bought what I could find, and ended
up with a 5,000 watt generator (2 phase, about 20 amps per phase). I
wired a generator panel with an isolation switch so I can give power to
the kitchen, furnace, and sump pump. It has a 5 gallon tank, and uses
about 1 gallon per hour. I have used it a few times. I mention this
because:

1) If you put 5 gallons in the tank, and the power comes back on after
1 hour, you have 4 gallons left in the tank. Gasoline does not keep, so
you have to use it or drain it out.

2) I saw a comment a long time ago that someone had a 2,500 watt
generator, and could run it all day on 1 gallon. Probably hyperbole,
but you waste a lot of gas if you don't use all the power.

Maybe it was me. I have a 2000w and it will run 12 hours on a gallon at
half load; no hyperbole. My freezer and refrigerator are only 200w and my
furnace is 500w, thats only 900w in total. (starting the freezer is
another story, the generator stalled once doing that; but once in about 2
weeks of use isn't bad.)

A bigger generator will use more gas than a small generator, even doing the
same thing. Gas can be hard to find in a power outage. Buy the smallest
generator that will satisfy your needs.

3) You need to balance the load on your generator. 3500 watts is still
15 amps per phase. As long as you don't start both refridgerators at
the same time, you should be ok (start-up current is large, but
generators do have the ability to exceed the rated output for a short
period of time for just such a purpose).

I haven't seen the 3500w, but most small ones are one "phase".

4) Some time spent wiring on a nice day sure beats running cords all
over the place on a lousy day when the power fails. It is so
convenient, even my wife can hook it up in an emergency (just kidding
about the wife part). I ran a 30 amp circuit for the generator into the
Garage, where it can sit protected from the elements when running
(garage door open). Hardwire is the only way you can supply generator
power to the furnace.

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 00:46:56 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Steve Kraus writes:

That's not 2-phase, but single phase with two legs of opposite
polarity.

True but if one is going to nitpick then one can *really* nitpick and
say that from the point of view of the neutral it *is* two phases that
are 180ø apart. Phase doesn't have to mean 120ø apart.

It's not a nitpick. 2-phase means something, but not what you said.

Does the "2-phase" system you're referring to have the 2 phases 90
degrees apart? I seem to have heard of some motors using that.

Both of these (the usual system in homes where the phases are 180
degrees apart, and that other 2-phase system) fit the definition of
"phase". Saying one is not 2-phase would be like saying that "AB" is 2
letters but "BD" is not.

For the system with the phases 180 deg. apart, I also hear "Edison
System".
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

"Tokai" wrote in message
ups.com..
..
4) Some time spent wiring on a nice day sure beats running cords all
over the place on a lousy day when the power fails. It is so
convenient, even my wife can hook it up in an emergency (just kidding
about the wife part). I ran a 30 amp circuit for the generator into the
Garage, where it can sit protected from the elements when running
(garage door open). Hardwire is the only way you can supply generator
power to the furnace.


Even with the garage door open you should not run the generator inside the
garage. Carbon monoxide has a way of collecting just where it is not
wanted.

Mark Lloyd writes:

Both of these (the usual system in homes where the phases are 180
degrees apart, and that other 2-phase system) fit the definition of
"phase".

No, it does not fit the definition. Reversing the polarity does not create
another phase. (Except perhaps in your imagination.)

A transformer reversing polarity does not create multiphase from single
phase.

Multiphase requires a non-zero vector dot product. That's how you get
motors to turn.

You might as well say two legs 0 degrees apart are multiphase, because
there are two of them.

Richard J Kinch wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:


Both of these (the usual system in homes where the phases are 180
degrees apart, and that other 2-phase system) fit the definition of
"phase".


No, it does not fit the definition. Reversing the polarity does not create
another phase. (Except perhaps in your imagination.)

A transformer reversing polarity does not create multiphase from single
phase.

Multiphase requires a non-zero vector dot product. That's how you get
motors to turn.

You might as well say two legs 0 degrees apart are multiphase, because
there are two of them.

180 degrees out of phase is a different phase, mathematically.

And there's no such thing as the "polarity" of a sine wave.

But you're right in saying that what power distribution folks
mean by multi-phase is not the 180 degree case.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT writes:

180 degrees out of phase is a different phase, mathematically.

No. The mathematical definition of phase with regard to electric power
involves a non-zero dot product. Simply scaling a phase yields the same
phase, even if the scalar happens to be -1.

You might want to have a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

Richard J Kinch wrote:

CJT writes:


180 degrees out of phase is a different phase, mathematically.


No. The mathematical definition of phase with regard to electric power
involves a non-zero dot product. Simply scaling a phase yields the same
phase, even if the scalar happens to be -1.

You might want to have a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

I stand by what I said, particularly in the context of what you snipped.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Richard J Kinch wrote:

CJT writes:


180 degrees out of phase is a different phase, mathematically.


No. The mathematical definition of phase with regard to electric power
involves a non-zero dot product. Simply scaling a phase yields the same
phase, even if the scalar happens to be -1.

You might want to have a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

BTW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_%28waves%29

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 20:51:54 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:

Both of these (the usual system in homes where the phases are 180
degrees apart, and that other 2-phase system) fit the definition of
"phase".

No, it does not fit the definition. Reversing the polarity does not create
another phase. (Except perhaps in your imagination.)


It is the opposite polarity (instantaneous polarity). It's also 180
degrees out of phase (the second phase carries the same signal, but
starting 1/2 cycle later).

A transformer reversing polarity does not create multiphase from single
phase.


That has to do with the location of the reference point. The reference
point is normally ground, such as what's connected to the center tap
of the transformer secondary.

Multiphase requires a non-zero vector dot product. That's how you get
motors to turn.


I think I understand that. It depends on some definition of "phase"
different from the ordinary one.

You might as well say two legs 0 degrees apart are multiphase, because
there are two of them.

I never said that. I described 2 or more legs at DIFFERENT angles. How
are you equating 0 and 180?
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 03:17:29 GMT, CJT wrote:

Richard J Kinch wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:


Both of these (the usual system in homes where the phases are 180
degrees apart, and that other 2-phase system) fit the definition of
"phase".


No, it does not fit the definition. Reversing the polarity does not create
another phase. (Except perhaps in your imagination.)

A transformer reversing polarity does not create multiphase from single
phase.

Multiphase requires a non-zero vector dot product. That's how you get
motors to turn.

You might as well say two legs 0 degrees apart are multiphase, because
there are two of them.

180 degrees out of phase is a different phase, mathematically.

And there's no such thing as the "polarity" of a sine wave.


Not really. However, there is instantaneous polarity. At any
particular time, the 2 phases will have opposite polarity
(disregarding the extremely short zero-crossing intervals). On a
3-phase system, adjacent phases would have opposite polarity 2/3 of
the time.

BTW, in radio people often incorrectly say "polarity" for
"polarization".

But you're right in saying that what power distribution folks
mean by multi-phase is not the 180 degree case.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd writes:

It depends on some definition of "phase" different from the ordinary one.

No, there is only one definition of "phase" in the context of electric
power. The various mathematical notions of "phase" are not relevant. You
commit the fallacy of "definitional retreat".

CJT writes:

180 degrees out of phase is a different phase, mathematically.

I stand by what I said, particularly in the context of what you
snipped.

In the context of "phase" in electric power, you are in error. That
mathematics has a different sense of "phase" is irrelevant.

"A polyphase system must provide a defined direction of phase rotation, so
mirror image voltages do not count towards the phase order. A 3-wire system
with two phase conductors 180 degrees apart is still only single phase."

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphase_system

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 14:13:07 -0600, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:

It depends on some definition of "phase" different from the ordinary one.

No, there is only one definition of "phase" in the context of electric
power. The various mathematical notions of "phase" are not relevant. You
commit the fallacy of "definitional retreat".

Unlikely. The word "phase" has meaning, which applies to a lot of
things, including mathematics and electric power. What seems to be
happening here, is a specialized redefinition that I wasn't using.
Sort of the opposite of "definitional retreat".

BTW, how would you respond to the question "True of false: the
currents in each leg of a three-phase motor (wye connected) are
equal". That question was actually on a test I had once in a NEC
class. Some would say TRUE, others know it's FALSE.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

Mark Lloyd writes:

The word "phase" has meaning, which applies to a lot of
things, including mathematics and electric power.

Most of us would consider the context of a thread titled, "portable
generator question (wattage)" to involve the latter.