Abby Normal wrote:

Maybe the scheme could get more elaborate yet to prove the
setback scheme. Put a small ductless split heat pump in each room.

No need, even someone as stupid as you should be able to grasp
that the primary system will have the effect of spreading the effect
of the single ductless split system thruout the house if its put in the
main living area.

In effect the ductless split system is just like the strips except that its
much more efficient than the strips for when the primary system doesnt
have enough horsepower to come back off setback quickly enough.

That's good, let the sun warm up the home during the day, then let the
heat pump maintain a comfortable temp until you fall asleep then set it
back.

Just keep it cool until until the next afternoon when the sunshine
warms your house back up.

So if they do not mind those cold temps when the experience nice low
wet bulb temps when getting out of the shower on those winter mornings
why even bother setting it back in the first place. Just keep the temp
set low all the time. With a passive solar design, It could even rise
above the set point on a sunny winter day for free.

So now you stayed up all night to basically say why bother making the
system recover from night time set back mainly because it can't without
some extra help. The extra help is sunshine, strip heaters, an
oversized system or a dedicated 'recovery from night time set back'
system.

You have given up on the overnight set back, so we are back to the day
time setback where I already said, "recover while the sun is shining".

Abby Normal wrote:

That's good, let the sun warm up the home during the
day, then let the heat pump maintain a comfortable
temp until you fall asleep then set it back.

Yep, your original claim that

Setback has a value, just not with heat pumps.

was always just plain wrong.

And you dont necessarily have to use solar to come back
off setback either, the other obvious possibility when solar
isnt practical is to come back off setback after midday
when the heat pump can get back to normal temp for
the evening a reasonable time with no one in the house.

Just keep it cool until until the next afternoon when
the sunshine warms your house back up.

So if they do not mind those cold temps when the experience
nice low wet bulb temps when getting out of the shower on those
winter mornings why even bother setting it back in the first place.

Basically because that saves power when you
are asleep when its vastly more economical to
heat the bed rather than the entire house.

Just keep the temp set low all the time. With a passive solar design,
It could even rise above the set point on a sunny winter day for free.

Depends on how the passive solar is done. Many find that once the
sun has gone, that its not warm enough for comfort and so it makes
sense to use a heat pump to keep the place warm enough in the
evenings and to go onto setback once you have gone to bed.

So now you stayed up all night

No I didnt. You cant even work out the basics on timezones either.

to basically say why bother making the system recover from night
time set back mainly because it can't without some extra help. The
extra help is sunshine, strip heaters, an oversized system or a
dedicated 'recovery from night time set back' system.

What matters is what is the most economic way
to come back off setback with a heat pump.

That can make setback with heat pumps very viable. You
pig ignorantly claimed setback isnt viable with heat pumps.

You have given up on the overnight set back,

No I havent.

so we are back to the day time setback where
I already said, "recover while the sun is shining".

Its just one way of doing setback with a heat pump.

The other obvious approach is the ductless
split system added to the primary system.

Another is just coming off setback after midday
with plenty of time to get back to normal temps
for the evening with more useful outside temps.

Your original claim that setback isnt viable with
heat pumps has always been just plain wrong.

Rod Speed wrote:

Abby Normal wrote:

Okay rocket we are done. I am getting tired of shooting
fish in a barrel. Maybe try "are so" and "am not" next time.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Pure dribblesnot! Dribblesnot I say!!!!!

Or is that pigdribble, I never can keep those straight...

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

RP wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:

RP wrote:

Logan Shaw wrote:


Abby Normal wrote:


Rod Speed wrote:


Abby Normal wrote



come back and see me when you figured out how to
get multiple systems to share common duct work rookie.


Dont have to share the same ductwork, ****wit.


okay so you are going to instal 3 systems now, three independent
duct systems


I hate to say it, but I have to concur with Rod on this one. His
style of argumentation leaves a lot to be desired, but in this case,
I agree with his conclusion.

If you are coming off setback and using a secondary heat pump to
do only that, it doesn't need duct work. If it just heats the
air in one room, the primary system will be running continuously
(or nearly) and will be circulating the air around the house
anyway. Even if the secondary heat pump heats the air in one room
up to 95F in the process, eventually that'll even out as the other
system recirculates everything. And heating the air up to such a
high temperature is unlikely anyway, since by definition when
you are recovering from setback, the temperature is colder than
you'd really like it.

However, I do have to admit there could be problems if the secondary
heat pump (that's used only during recovery) is putting heat mainly
into the room with the thermostat. If the temperature in that room
rises faster than in the rest of the house, it could cause the
system to think recovery has finished when it hasn't yet gotten to
that point. And if the secondary heat pump is too far away from
the thermostat, it could cause the system to overshoot the target
and heat up the house too much. But, those are control issues
rather than duct issues, and they seem solvable.


It isn't going to work.


Corse it'll work.


If you raise the temp in one room to a point higher than the desired temp,


That isnt going to happen when the secondary system is
JUST used to come off the setback in a reasonable time.


then you're going to have heat losses through the exterior walls that wouldn't
have occurred with a centrally ducted system, thus defeating the purpose, at
least to some extent.


Nope.


If you feed it into an interior room then that room will simply get too hot,
no question about it.


Wrong again.


I hate to say it but it's not a very intelligent alternative.


Corse it will work fine. No reason why the secondary system
cant have a slightly lower than normal temperature set so it
recovers from the setback in a decent time and then stops and
leaves the primary system to get the temp back up to normal.
Thats going to happen fine since the temp difference is well
within its capabilitys.

Supposing that I grant your every point, what would be the point of such
a system? Wouldn't it be much easier to simply install a larger staged
system?

hvacrmedic

Even if you agree with the troll he will still argue with you.

The heat pump without the heat strips, without being grossly oversized,
or without having multilple units exceeding the required capacity
can't recover for the morning period so he advocates not bring the home
up to temperature until the afternoon.

You got the sun helping you then, plus the only intelligent thing this
idot has said so far......... in the afternoon you are hitting your
daily high temperature usually so you get a little more heat out of the
heat pump. So now the system is being set back for 16 hours minimum
each day. Once a day. Recover while the sun is shining, nothing new,
just the way he trolls around and ends up saying what was originally
said by others.

Otherwise just leave it at the low indoor temperature, wear long
underwear and slippers all the time, be comfy and enjoy low heating
bills. The fact that the cost of the booster system being installed
would never pay for itself in its lifetime of service is another
matter.

The rest of the stuff he just contradicts himself, and really to argue
that you can setback and recover temperature in time by forking out the
extra money for a 'booster heater system' is just stupid. A case of
going to extreme to prove a point and yank someone's chain to keep them
arguing with a moron.

I think he has it down to a minimum of three systems now, two ducted
and one ductless split but I think he will soon be championing the
cause of a ductless split heat pump in each room to boost the
temperature more evenly. Maybe he will go back to one sized for cooling
as the central ducted system then a ductless split in each room.

Maybe one of those mitsubishi vrv's yah that's the ticket. They only
cost about as much as chilled water.

LMAO

Abby Normal wrote:
RP wrote:

Rod Speed wrote:


RP wrote:


Logan Shaw wrote:



Abby Normal wrote:



Rod Speed wrote:



Abby Normal wrote




come back and see me when you figured out how to
get multiple systems to share common duct work rookie.


Dont have to share the same ductwork, ****wit.


okay so you are going to instal 3 systems now, three independent
duct systems


I hate to say it, but I have to concur with Rod on this one. His
style of argumentation leaves a lot to be desired, but in this case,
I agree with his conclusion.

If you are coming off setback and using a secondary heat pump to
do only that, it doesn't need duct work. If it just heats the
air in one room, the primary system will be running continuously
(or nearly) and will be circulating the air around the house
anyway. Even if the secondary heat pump heats the air in one room
up to 95F in the process, eventually that'll even out as the other
system recirculates everything. And heating the air up to such a
high temperature is unlikely anyway, since by definition when
you are recovering from setback, the temperature is colder than
you'd really like it.

However, I do have to admit there could be problems if the secondary
heat pump (that's used only during recovery) is putting heat mainly
into the room with the thermostat. If the temperature in that room
rises faster than in the rest of the house, it could cause the
system to think recovery has finished when it hasn't yet gotten to
that point. And if the secondary heat pump is too far away from
the thermostat, it could cause the system to overshoot the target
and heat up the house too much. But, those are control issues
rather than duct issues, and they seem solvable.


It isn't going to work.


Corse it'll work.



If you raise the temp in one room to a point higher than the desired temp,


That isnt going to happen when the secondary system is
JUST used to come off the setback in a reasonable time.



then you're going to have heat losses through the exterior walls that wouldn't
have occurred with a centrally ducted system, thus defeating the purpose, at
least to some extent.


Nope.



If you feed it into an interior room then that room will simply get too hot,
no question about it.


Wrong again.



I hate to say it but it's not a very intelligent alternative.


Corse it will work fine. No reason why the secondary system
cant have a slightly lower than normal temperature set so it
recovers from the setback in a decent time and then stops and
leaves the primary system to get the temp back up to normal.
Thats going to happen fine since the temp difference is well
within its capabilitys.

Supposing that I grant your every point, what would be the point of such
a system? Wouldn't it be much easier to simply install a larger staged
system?

hvacrmedic


Even if you agree with the troll he will still argue with you.

The heat pump without the heat strips, without being grossly oversized,
or without having multilple units exceeding the required capacity
can't recover for the morning period so he advocates not bring the home
up to temperature until the afternoon.

You got the sun helping you then, plus the only intelligent thing this
idot has said so far......... in the afternoon you are hitting your
daily high temperature usually so you get a little more heat out of the
heat pump. So now the system is being set back for 16 hours minimum
each day. Once a day. Recover while the sun is shining, nothing new,
just the way he trolls around and ends up saying what was originally
said by others.

Otherwise just leave it at the low indoor temperature, wear long
underwear and slippers all the time, be comfy and enjoy low heating
bills. The fact that the cost of the booster system being installed
would never pay for itself in its lifetime of service is another
matter.

The rest of the stuff he just contradicts himself, and really to argue
that you can setback and recover temperature in time by forking out the
extra money for a 'booster heater system' is just stupid. A case of
going to extreme to prove a point and yank someone's chain to keep them
arguing with a moron.

I think he has it down to a minimum of three systems now, two ducted
and one ductless split but I think he will soon be championing the
cause of a ductless split heat pump in each room to boost the
temperature more evenly. Maybe he will go back to one sized for cooling
as the central ducted system then a ductless split in each room.

Maybe one of those mitsubishi vrv's yah that's the ticket. They only
cost about as much as chilled water.

My real opinion about this entire subject is that if you can't afford to
run a strip heater or two for recovery, then you can't afford to run the
****ing heat pump either. They should just shut the ****ing thing off,
sell it on e-bay, use the money to buy a big gun to kill themselves.
Then all of those monetary concerns would be moot

hvacrmedic

Abby Normal wrote
RP wrote
Rod Speed wrote
RP wrote
Logan Shaw wrote
Abby Normal wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Abby Normal wrote

come back and see me when you figured out how to
get multiple systems to share common duct work rookie.

Dont have to share the same ductwork, ****wit.


okay so you are going to instal 3 systems now, three independent
duct systems


I hate to say it, but I have to concur with Rod on this one. His
style of argumentation leaves a lot to be desired, but in this
case, I agree with his conclusion.

If you are coming off setback and using a secondary heat pump to
do only that, it doesn't need duct work. If it just heats the
air in one room, the primary system will be running continuously
(or nearly) and will be circulating the air around the house
anyway. Even if the secondary heat pump heats the air in one room
up to 95F in the process, eventually that'll even out as the other
system recirculates everything. And heating the air up to such a
high temperature is unlikely anyway, since by definition when
you are recovering from setback, the temperature is colder than
you'd really like it.

However, I do have to admit there could be problems if the
secondary heat pump (that's used only during recovery) is putting
heat mainly into the room with the thermostat. If the
temperature in that room rises faster than in the rest of the
house, it could cause the system to think recovery has finished
when it hasn't yet gotten to that point. And if the secondary
heat pump is too far away from the thermostat, it could cause the
system to overshoot the target and heat up the house too much.
But, those are control issues rather than duct issues, and they
seem solvable.


It isn't going to work.


Corse it'll work.


If you raise the temp in one room to a point higher than the
desired temp,


That isnt going to happen when the secondary system is
JUST used to come off the setback in a reasonable time.


then you're going to have heat losses through the exterior walls
that wouldn't have occurred with a centrally ducted system, thus
defeating the purpose, at least to some extent.


Nope.


If you feed it into an interior room then that room will simply
get too hot, no question about it.


Wrong again.


I hate to say it but it's not a very intelligent alternative.


Corse it will work fine. No reason why the secondary system
cant have a slightly lower than normal temperature set so it
recovers from the setback in a decent time and then stops and
leaves the primary system to get the temp back up to normal.
Thats going to happen fine since the temp difference is well
within its capabilitys.

Supposing that I grant your every point, what would be the point of
such a system? Wouldn't it be much easier to simply install a larger
staged system?

Even if you agree with the troll he will still argue with you.

You wouldnt know what a troll was if it bit you on your lard arse.

The heat pump without the heat strips, without being grossly
oversized, or without having multilple units exceeding the
required capacity can't recover for the morning period so he
advocates not bring the home up to temperature until the afternoon.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

What was being discussed was your pig ignorant
claim that setback aint viable with heat pumps.

I rubbed your stupid pig ignorant nose in a number of perfectly
viable situations where set back with a heat pump is indeed viable.

You got the sun helping you then, plus the only intelligent
thing this idot has said so far......... in the afternoon you
are hitting your daily high temperature usually so you
get a little more heat out of the heat pump.

Its a hell of a lot more than an little more,
you pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist.

So now the system is being set back for
16 hours minimum each day. Once a day.

Doesnt alter that FACT that setback is
indeed viable in that particular situation.

Recover while the sun is shining, nothing new,

Pity you pig ignorantly claimed that
setback aint viable with heat pumps.

just the way he trolls around and ends up
saying what was originally said by others.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Otherwise just leave it at the low indoor temperature,
wear long underwear and slippers all the time, be
comfy and enjoy low heating bills.

Nothing to do with what was being discussed,
whether setback can be viable with a heat pump.

The fact that the cost of the booster system being installed would
never pay for itself in its lifetime of service is another matter.

Complete pig ignorant drivel with the cheap chinese ductless split systems.

The rest of the stuff he just contradicts himself,

Lying, as always.

and really to argue that you can setback and recover temperature in time
by forking out the extra money for a 'booster heater system' is just stupid.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

And passive solar to assist with coming off the
setback doesnt necessarily cost much at all.

A case of going to extreme to prove a point and yank
someone's chain to keep them arguing with a moron.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

I think he has it down to a minimum of three systems now,

Lying, as always.

two ducted

Lying, as always.

and one ductless split

You dont even need that if you are happy to come
off the setback in time for the evening, ****wit.

but I think he will soon be championing the cause of a ductless split
heat pump in each room to boost the temperature more evenly.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

I actually keep rubbing your stupid pig ignorant nose in the
FACT that the primary system will be perfectly adequate
to equalise the temperature when the boost is being used.

Maybe he will go back to one sized for cooling as the
central ducted system then a ductless split in each room.

You're the only one so stupid that you cant manage to
work out that the primary system is perfectly adequate to
keep the temps even if it can do that without any setback.

Maybe one of those mitsubishi vrv's yah that's the ticket.
They only cost about as much as chilled water.

Pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist is obviously blotto by now.

You even suck as a troll. Same old repettoire when flustered.

You're the only one so stupid that you cant manage to
work out that the primary system is perfectly adequate to
keep the temps even if it can do that without any setback

So the primary one is sized for the design heat loss and then is
grossly oversized for cooling. Give up rookie.

Or do you still have the dual systems with backdraft dampers plus the
incremental ductless split in lieu of a pot belly stove. Remember,
sound out the big words and think before you post.

You are the most pathetic troll I have seen but at least you are
effective at getting me to feed you.

Abby Normal wrote

You even suck as a troll. Same old repettoire when flustered.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Abby Normal wrote:

You're the only one so stupid that you cant manage to
work out that the primary system is perfectly adequate to
keep the temps even if it can do that without any setback

So the primary one is sized for the design heat
loss and then is grossly oversized for cooling.

Never said anything like that, you pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist.

I have JUST been rubbing your stupid pig ignorant nose in the FACT that
your stupid pig ignorant claim that setback with heat pump isnt viable.

Wrong, as always.

Or do you still have the dual systems with backdraft
dampers plus the incremental ductless split

Nope.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Hey I will see your wet paper bag and a blotto and raise you a couple
ignorant pig wads.

Abby Normal wrote:

Hey I will see your wet paper bag and a blotto
and raise you a couple ignorant pig wads.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Come on rocket, you said the primary system would maintain the
temperature even though it could not handle the setback, so this means
it is then sized for the heating load and by your own admission, can
not handle the setback, so you have a booster.

Now the problem is that something sized for the heating load, which
then can deliver a significant amount of heat from a low temperature
source, is going to have much more capacity than needed for cooling
unless of course you live in Bermuda.

I thought when you were pitching 3 systems you realized this problem.
At least you sort of had all your bases covered then, one sized for the
cooling load, another sized to make up the difference needed for the
one sized for cooling's heat output vs the required heat output, then a
third system system to finally prove you could accomplish set back and
then recover in time.

Nothing viable in the above.

So try to increase your batting average then, you finally got a hit
when you realized that in the warmest time of the day you would have
the maximum heat output from a heat pump.

Maybe you could just summarize one of these viable systems that covers
all the bases. Come on bottom of the ninth two out and if you hit a
grand slam, you got a chance of losing with dignity.

Abby Normal wrote:
Hey I will see your wet paper bag and a blotto and raise you a couple
ignorant pig wads.



Rod suffers from a mental defect that prevents him from admitting
error. The "reams" and assorted other auto responses are his
subconscious of admitting that facts have, as usual, either failed him
or prove him wrong.
When he is is wrong beyond a doubt he whines "bull****" and "irrelevant".

He seems easily confused too.

Abby Normal wrote:

He seems easily confused too.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Abby Normal wrote

Come on rocket, you said the primary system would maintain
the temperature even though it could not handle the setback,
so this means it is then sized for the heating load

You did manage to get that bit right. ****ing miracle.

and by your own admission, can not
handle the setback, so you have a booster.

Mangled that completely. I ACTUALLY said that you can EITHER
let it come back off the setback after midday in time for the normal
temp in the evening, if no one is going to be home during the day,
OR you can use a ductless split system to come off setback
if you prefer to come off setback before anyone gets up.

Do TRY to keep up. Laying off the grog might help.

Now the problem is that something sized for the heating load,
which then can deliver a significant amount of heat from a low
temperature source, is going to have much more capacity
than needed for cooling unless of course you live in Bermuda.

Or you dont actually use it for cooling. A swamp cooling system
makes a hell of a lot more sense here, vastly cheaper to run.
And you can use the heat pump on the very occasional says
when the humidity is too high for the swamp system to work well.

I thought when you were pitching 3 systems you realized this problem.

Not a shred of evidence that you are actually capable of thought or
even being able to keep straight what is actually being discussed either.

At least you sort of had all your bases covered then, one sized
for the cooling load, another sized to make up the difference
needed for the one sized for cooling's heat output vs the
required heat output, then a third system system to finally
prove you could accomplish set back and then recover in time.

Nothing viable in the above.

Wrong, as always.

So try to increase your batting average then, you finally got
a hit when you realized that in the warmest time of the day
you would have the maximum heat output from a heat pump.

I knew that all along, just rubbed your nose in it when you were
stupid enough to proclaim that setback aint viable with heat pumps.

Maybe you could just summarize one of these
viable systems that covers all the bases.

Pointless, it makes a hell of a lot more sense to
tailor the system to the way its going to be used.

Come on bottom of the ninth two out and if you hit a
grand slam, you got a chance of losing with dignity.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Try laying off the grog for a while and see if that helps.

Rocket, you are not scoring any originality points here on the insults,
I am disappointed to say the least.

So take a deep breath and concentrate. Lets see you summarize a viable
scheme that has all the bases covered.

You can google search and get back to me tomorrow if you need the time.
You can even explore the vrv systems and you do not need to give me a
footnote credit.

You're the only one so stupid that you cant manage to
work out that the primary system is perfectly adequate to
keep the temps even if it can do that without any setback

So let's see you summarize a system.Hey tailor it all you want.

Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

one more time rocket, third time is a charm

Rod Speed wrote:
Or you dont actually use it for cooling. A swamp cooling system
makes a hell of a lot more sense here, vastly cheaper to run.
And you can use the heat pump on the very occasional says
when the humidity is too high for the swamp system to work well.


This is getting good rocket. A ducted primary heat pump system for
heat, a ductless heat pump as a booster system to prove you can
actually set back a heat pump, and now a swamp cooler. Keep going,
sooner or later you will have an X15 modulator and or a flux capacitor.

On the first day of christmas my rocket gave to me a heat pump that was
too big...........

Rod Speed wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.


Another fact filled Rod Speed refutation.

You awake yet down under rocket?

I can sort of see how you are trying to put things in context. You
endure one of the easiest climates in the world to heat/cool with a
heat pump yet you cannot come up with a viable scheme to prove your
point. If you had a clue as to what you were talking about, you should
be easily able to do it. As easy as a Bermuda Climate and all you can
do is wet paper bags, blotto and pig ignorant.

You even have good proximity access to the asian ductless split systems
- at least substantial savings on the freight.

Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

You are taking all the fun out of trolling a troll.

On the second day of christmas my rocket gave to me
two paper bags
and a heat pump that was too big

Abby Normal wrote:

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Three blottos, 2 paper bags and a ..............

Maybe on the fith day i will get "five viable systems", even tho I
would gladly accept just one.

Man I was looking at some ozzie weather data and average July monthly
lows were 6 to 9C in areas with average July highs around 15C. So you
should be able to viably size something up there as easy as in Bermuda.

Maybe with some long underwear and passive solar you could frugally get
by without any heat. Perhaps a central fire place and burn some
kangaroo chips or those pesky rabbit droppings. It seems to get dry in
summer with some high temperatures so maybe your swamp cooler works.

Have you considered adding a mixing box to the inlet of your swamp
cooler yet, that would allow from 100% outside air to 100% return air.
I was thinking that you could switch it to 100% return air in the
heating mode, cycle the water on and off to keep humidity up, plus use
that high volume of air flow to equalize the temperatures through out
the house from the booster heat pump or central fire place.

Have you ever heated or cooled anything besides your food and your CPU?

So come on, summarize one viable system then you can throw in another
nose rubbing on me.

Abby Normal wrote

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Rocket, I almost get the feeling that you are not having any fun with
this role reversal of the troll getting trolled.

Abby Normal wrote

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Obviously blotto, as always.

No surprise that the best its ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Abby Normal wrote
Rod Speed wrote

In effect the ductless split system is just like the strips except
that its much more efficient than the strips for when the primary
system doesnt have enough horsepower to come back off setback
quickly enough

Actually with the heat strips in an auxilairy heat function, the heat
strips are in series with the heat pump indoor air coil and the supply
air temperature distributed through out the space is elevated above
what the heat pump can put out. An electrical analogy would be two
heat sources in series.

Irrelevant to it being a more expensive source of that heat.

The ductless booster system will heat up a common area
that would also be recieving heat from the central ducted
system. Now you have two heat sources in parallel so it
already is a smidge different than using the heat strips.

Irrelevant to strips being a more expensive source of that heat.

So to avoid the room getting overly hot
the ductless system would shut off.

ONLY when its got the common area back off setback.

Thats what you want it to do.

You have warmed up the central area but
all the other rooms are still not recovered.

Wrong, the primary system will be circulating that
warmed up air from the central area to the other areas.

So you could keep the all the bedroom doors open to allow them
to gain as much heat as they could from the booster heater in the
living room, but you will not have anything close to uniform heat.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never ever had a ****ing clue about the basics.

AND when people have got up, it doesnt matter if the
bedrooms arent YET back to the normal temp anyway.
Either the bedroom occupant is still in the bed, and has
been at the setback temp up till then, or they have got
up and have moved to the central areas, stupid.

Like a superinsulated home with a central
fireplace burning kangaroo chips.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never ever had a ****ing clue about the basics.

Reams of your pathetic attempts at a troll flushed where it belongs.

No wonder the best you have ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.

Rod Speed wrote:
Abby Normal wrote
Rod Speed wrote

In effect the ductless split system is just like the strips except
that its much more efficient than the strips for when the primary
system doesnt have enough horsepower to come back off setback
quickly enough

Actually with the heat strips in an auxilairy heat function, the heat
strips are in series with the heat pump indoor air coil and the supply
air temperature distributed through out the space is elevated above
what the heat pump can put out. An electrical analogy would be two
heat sources in series.

Irrelevant to it being a more expensive source of that heat.

Well you said the ductless split is just like the strips
except...........

So I merely pointed out the fundamental difference you were not aware
of.

The ductless booster system will heat up a common area
that would also be recieving heat from the central ducted
system. Now you have two heat sources in parallel so it
already is a smidge different than using the heat strips.

Irrelevant to strips being a more expensive source of that heat.


Just the fundamental difference. The heat strips get the job done but
you have not really thought out this parallel heat scheme of yours in
the central area. You get a little bit of the series action as you try
to trickle heat into the rooms.

So to avoid the room getting overly hot
the ductless system would shut off.

ONLY when its got the common area back off setback.

That is what I said. The booster is in the central area, it heats the
central area in addition to the primary system. Therefore it and the
primary system warms up the central area so the booster shuts off and
the primary system shuts off or the central area is overheated. So you
can think about your multiple thermostats and where exactly you are
going to put the primary stat. Maybe even motorized dampers on the
primary supply to the central area. So you shut off the supplies to the
central area so not to overheat but you need to draw return from the
central area to try and get this extra heat to the rooms. Hmm this
depressurizes central area, causes infiltration, increases heat load.

Don't see you getting out of overheating the central area rocket. Give
up now on the ductless booster its a dog.

A big problem is to get heat to the other areas, you will most likely
find that you need to overheat the central area. Others have pointed
out how this wastes energy. I pointed out how it also reduces the
efficiency of the booster in addition to wasting heat.

Thats what you want it to do.

You have warmed up the central area but
all the other rooms are still not recovered.

Wrong, the primary system will be circulating that
warmed up air from the central area to the other areas.

Probably the primary system moves air based on the fact that perhaps it
supplies air maybe 20 degrees F warmer than the room air, and this is
to maintain temperature not recover the temperature. Maybe it gets up
to a little higher differential in your easy climate and relatively
warm winter ambient maybe you are getting 25 to 30 F degree rise. Okay
lets call it a 25 degree rise.

See you are a little vague, and won't layout exactly what you are
proposing, probably worried as it makes you feel vulnerable but here is
a stab at a scenario.

If the primary system was in heat mode, and in your case the summers
are so dry you never have to worry about dehumidification , then the
primary system could be sized for the design heat load.

An elevated return temperature from the common area is not really going
to do much here, maybe cause the air into the primary heat pump to be 2
degrees F or so warmer than straight return from all the set back
rooms. A slight increase in return temperature will also lower the heat
output of the primary heat pump and cause a slight drop in COP.

So if you neglect the drop in heat output/COP of the primary system
here is some quick numbers for some easy math that also ignores thermal
mass.

If the primary system was doing a 25 degree F rise, the central booster
without overheating the central area gives a net heat increase to the
supply air temp of the primary system of perhaps (2F) 8% as a best
case.

So maybe the ambient is 45F, set point is 70F and the set back temp is
65F.

Design differential 70-45=35F, trying to recover 5/35x100=14% and
recovery scheme increases heat output by 8%. Think you will be waiting
for the sun to start shining or you are going to be really elevating
the temperature of the central area to be able to recover.

So with a primary system sized for 100% of the design load and with a
ductless central booster you have a slim chance of being able to
recover and this is far from a viable scheme. So far most of the
savings of this booster heat pump are eroding away.

Maybe overheat that central area and have a bunch of through the wall
fans to draw heated central core air into the rooms then transfer back
through door grilles, under cut doors. Just keeps getting more
rediculous.

I'll tell you what rocket, you summarize a scheme that pays for itself
in 20 years over heat strips and I will concede you can set back a heat
pump in OZ. Good luck when the climate is so humid it needs DX cooling
tho.

Or forget the setback, just keep the same low setpoint, and have a
treat in the afternoon when the sun warms up the house to 70F. Without
the strips you are going to be challenged to recover. You recover for
comfort and if you are not going to be comfortable except for late
afternoon why bother in the first place.

Hey maybe summarize it is 68F being set back to 66F, it will recover
but the set back savings dry up.

I think your central booster scheme is a dog, but please feel free to
work it all out and summarize it. Maybe you can finally give me that
nose rubbing.


So you could keep the all the bedroom doors open to allow them
to gain as much heat as they could from the booster heater in the
living room, but you will not have anything close to uniform heat.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never ever had a ****ing clue about the basics.

AND when people have got up, it doesnt matter if the
bedrooms arent YET back to the normal temp anyway.
Either the bedroom occupant is still in the bed, and has
been at the setback temp up till then, or they have got
up and have moved to the central areas, stupid.

Well you gave up on the morning setback, so now just have the central
area warm and all is well. How about some auxiliary radiant floor heat
in the loo. Or is it truly a throne there in Oz, you all take a crap in
the middle of your living room?


Like a superinsulated home with a central
fireplace burning kangaroo chips.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never ever had a ****ing clue about the basics.

Actually that will be analogous to what it is like when you find out
you have to heat the central area up to 80 degrees F to get your
recovery scheme to work.

Reams of your pathetic attempts at a troll flushed where it belongs.

Hey I must be good at this troll stuff, I got you to actually say
something beyond blotto and wet paper bags.

Rod Speed wrote:

Corse it will work fine. No reason why the secondary system
cant have a slightly lower than normal temperature set so it
recovers from the setback in a decent time and then stops and
leaves the primary system to get the temp back up to normal.
Thats going to happen fine since the temp difference is well
within its capabilitys.

If you shut the booster off before the central area gets up to temp and
rely on the primary system then bringing it up to temperature then,
this central area catches up quick compared to the rest of the house.
Not much heat from that booster trickling into the rooms in that time
frame.

Maybe the central area gets back 4 out of 5 degrees in one half hour,
and in another hour, the central area warms up the last degree. Primary
system is off. No heat to the rooms. So you really need to think about
your controls and where exactly to put that primary stat.

Rooms are no where close to warming up. Only way to warm up rooms is to
over heat the central area. So nice orange, warm up the core and who
cares about the rooms, but we need an apple.

Strips will warm the whole place up. The ductless booster can't without
overheating the 'core'.

So maybe go back to the dual ducted systems with back draft dampers and
the swamp cooler with it own ductwork and tell me it is viable. Or you
could still explore the ductless spit in each room too.

Abby Normal wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Abby Normal wrote
Rod Speed wrote

In effect the ductless split system is just like the strips except
that its much more efficient than the strips for when the primary
system doesnt have enough horsepower to come back off setback
quickly enough

Actually with the heat strips in an auxilairy heat function, the
heat strips are in series with the heat pump indoor air coil and
the supply air temperature distributed through out the space is
elevated above what the heat pump can put out. An electrical
analogy would be two heat sources in series.

Irrelevant to it being a more expensive source of that heat.

Well you said the ductless split is just like the strips except...........

So I merely pointed out the fundamental difference you were not aware of.

Couldnt bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

The ductless booster system will heat up a common area
that would also be recieving heat from the central ducted
system. Now you have two heat sources in parallel so it
already is a smidge different than using the heat strips.

Irrelevant to strips being a more expensive source of that heat.

Just the fundamental difference. The heat strips get the job done but
you have not really thought out this parallel heat scheme of yours in
the central area. You get a little bit of the series action as you try
to trickle heat into the rooms.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never ever had a ****ing clue about the basics.

So to avoid the room getting overly hot
the ductless system would shut off.

ONLY when its got the common area back off setback.

That is what I said. The booster is in the central area, it heats the
central area in addition to the primary system. Therefore it and the
primary system warms up the central area so the booster shuts off and
the primary system shuts off or the central area is overheated. So you
can think about your multiple thermostats and where exactly you are
going to put the primary stat.

Dont need any of that, just a stat for the ductless split system
in the primary area, set a little below the normal temp required.

Maybe even motorized dampers on the primary supply to the
central area. So you shut off the supplies to the central area
so not to overheat but you need to draw return from the central
area to try and get this extra heat to the rooms. Hmm this
depressurizes central area, causes infiltration, increases heat load.

Pathetic, really.

Don't see you getting out of overheating the central area rocket.

Your problem.

Give up now on the ductless booster its a dog.

A big problem is to get heat to the other areas, you will
most likely find that you need to overheat the central area.

No you dont. The primary system will equalise the temps fine.

Others have pointed out how this wastes energy. I pointed out how it
also reduces the efficiency of the booster in addition to wasting heat.

Not a ****ing clue, as always.

Thats what you want it to do.

You have warmed up the central area but
all the other rooms are still not recovered.

Wrong, the primary system will be circulating that
warmed up air from the central area to the other areas.

Probably the primary system moves air based on the fact that perhaps
it supplies air maybe 20 degrees F warmer than the room air, and this
is to maintain temperature not recover the temperature.

It doesnt recover the temp, the ductless split system does that, stupid.

Maybe it gets up to a little higher differential in your easy climate
and relatively warm winter ambient maybe you are getting 25 to
30 F degree rise. Okay lets call it a 25 degree rise.

There wont be ANY rise when the stat for the
ductless split system is set to a bit below the
normal temp required and is JUST used to come
back off setback instead of using the strips for that.

See you are a little vague, and won't
layout exactly what you are proposing,

Lying, as always.

Reams of irrelevant crap flushed where it belongs.

I WASNT DISCUSSING MY PERSONAL SITUATION, APE.

Reams of a pathetic excuse for a troll flushed where it belongs.

So you could keep the all the bedroom doors open to allow them
to gain as much heat as they could from the booster heater in the
living room, but you will not have anything close to uniform heat.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never ever had a ****ing clue about the basics.

AND when people have got up, it doesnt matter if the
bedrooms arent YET back to the normal temp anyway.
Either the bedroom occupant is still in the bed, and has
been at the setback temp up till then, or they have got
up and have moved to the central areas, stupid.

Well you gave up on the morning setback,

Wrong again, just discussing how to do a
system if you dont want a morning setback.

Reams of a pathetic excuse for a troll flushed where it belongs.