Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.

I don't know what the current models are, and am looking for
suggestions for the different types of Heat Pumps, and brands. I would
like a unit that will provide both heating and cooling for the
different seasons. It seems that the type that uses the well water and
discharges it outside would be the best way to go, for both cost and
easy installation (based on the people that I know that have one).

I appreciate any and all feedback, and hope this will help others, too.
Especially with the increasing price of natural gas and propane! Our
propane has doubled since 2003.

Thanks much,
--
Chris

On 16 Sep 2005 11:01:50 -0700, "szilagyic"
wrote:

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current

****ing do your own homework, asshole. Don't broadcast your
bull**** all over the Internet as an alternative.



propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.

I don't know what the current models are, and am looking for
suggestions for the different types of Heat Pumps, and brands. I would
like a unit that will provide both heating and cooling for the
different seasons. It seems that the type that uses the well water and
discharges it outside would be the best way to go, for both cost and
easy installation (based on the people that I know that have one).

I appreciate any and all feedback, and hope this will help others, too.
Especially with the increasing price of natural gas and propane! Our
propane has doubled since 2003.

Thanks much,

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

"szilagyic" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.


Suggest do your own homework........and as your above post doesn't belong in
alt.hvac, also quit with the crossposting to here.....

====

Now, with that said :

DID you EVEN THINK about MAYBE looking to SEE if the INFORMATION you SEEK
just MIGHT be AVAILABLE at ****ING BARD's WEBSITE??



Thanks much,


Why, your most certainly welcome.....

--

SVL

Don't be disturbed by the ignoramuses that haven't a clue. Since the ground
source heat pumps of several different kinds draw the main sources of energy
from outside sources, the total efficiency can be an effective 400% or more.
The direct exchange units are, naturally, the most efficient

You can forget about looking for the Bard systems of Bryan, OH, though.
They are no longer fighting the valiant fight to build great systems because
of these nitwits and Gov't obstacles.

People like and someone with the doubtful
handle of "precision machinist" without a clue are the ones to thank..

There's a strong possibility both these morons are the same guy, and haven't
a useful clue.

George Willer

wrote in message
...
On 16 Sep 2005 11:01:50 -0700, "szilagyic"
wrote:

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current

****ing do your own homework, asshole. Don't broadcast your
bull**** all over the Internet as an alternative.



propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.

I don't know what the current models are, and am looking for
suggestions for the different types of Heat Pumps, and brands. I would
like a unit that will provide both heating and cooling for the
different seasons. It seems that the type that uses the well water and
discharges it outside would be the best way to go, for both cost and
easy installation (based on the people that I know that have one).

I appreciate any and all feedback, and hope this will help others, too.
Especially with the increasing price of natural gas and propane! Our
propane has doubled since 2003.

Thanks much,

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

www.bardhvac.com
"szilagyic" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.

I don't know what the current models are, and am looking for
suggestions for the different types of Heat Pumps, and brands. I would
like a unit that will provide both heating and cooling for the
different seasons. It seems that the type that uses the well water and
discharges it outside would be the best way to go, for both cost and
easy installation (based on the people that I know that have one).

I appreciate any and all feedback, and hope this will help others, too.
Especially with the increasing price of natural gas and propane! Our
propane has doubled since 2003.

Thanks much,
--
Chris

Before you go that route, you might want to do some homework and
compare the cost of heating with propane vs electricity. Given the
cost of electricity up there and the severity of winter, you'll
probably find that the heat pump won't get the job done.

For a water-sourced heat pump, you must first determine what size you
need and then evaluate your well to see if it will flow enough water.
Most wells drilled for potable water won't, at least around here. If
you're not going to return the water to the ground via another well
then you must test your well over an extended period.

If you're looking for a brand name, most all the major brands are
good. If you're going to hire the installation, I'd pay a LOT more
attention to the contractor than I would brand names. If the guy is
an independent (not an authorized dealer for a brand like York) then
he'll probably use Rheem or Ruud for conventional heatpumps. No idea
for geothermal heatpumps.

One last comment. I've bought houses with heat pumps on a number of
occasions. I have never liked them. The air isn't nearly as hot as
produced by combustion appliances. Even though the room may be in the
comfort zone, I always felt chilled and I generally like it colder
than most folks. I've almost always installed some sort of gas heat
to replace the heat pump. I install 'em for people on occasion but I
certainly don't like 'em.

John

On 16 Sep 2005 11:01:50 -0700, "szilagyic"
wrote:

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.

I don't know what the current models are, and am looking for
suggestions for the different types of Heat Pumps, and brands. I would
like a unit that will provide both heating and cooling for the
different seasons. It seems that the type that uses the well water and
discharges it outside would be the best way to go, for both cost and
easy installation (based on the people that I know that have one).

I appreciate any and all feedback, and hope this will help others, too.
Especially with the increasing price of natural gas and propane! Our
propane has doubled since 2003.

Thanks much,
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN

PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
"szilagyic" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.



Suggest do your own homework........and as your above post doesn't belong in
alt.hvac, also quit with the crossposting to here.....


Then why are you cross posting your reply to 4 different newsgroups you
hypocritical S.O.B?

"User Example" wrote in message
...
PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
"szilagyic" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well. I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.



Suggest do your own homework........and as your above post doesn't
belong in
alt.hvac, also quit with the crossposting to here.....


Then why are you cross posting your reply to 4 different newsgroups you
hypocritical S.O.B?

Hmmm...apparently you really are an idiot then....

I had crossposted in order to make sure that the OP indeed gets my
message....this regardless of whether or not he actually takes the time to
separately visit each group he had crossposted to....

Ya got anymore stupid questions, asshole ???

--if so, then ****ing ask them someplace else!!!

!!PLONK!!

--

SVL

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
...

"User Example" wrote in message
...
PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
"szilagyic" wrote in message
oups.com...

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current
propane furnace. I am heating about 2200 sq. ft. and I have a well.
I
live in Michigan so our temps range from 0 - 90 deg. farenheit
throughout the different seasons. I know somebody that lives near us
that has had a Bard brand Heat Pump for about 15 years and they love
it, that uses their well water and discharges it outside.



Suggest do your own homework........and as your above post doesn't
belong in
alt.hvac, also quit with the crossposting to here.....


Then why are you cross posting your reply to 4 different newsgroups you
hypocritical S.O.B?

Hmmm...apparently you really are an idiot then....

I had crossposted in order to make sure that the OP indeed gets my
message....this regardless of whether or not he actually takes the time to
separately visit each group he had crossposted to....

Ya got anymore stupid questions, asshole ???

--if so, then ****ing ask them someplace else!!!

!!PLONK!!


BTW :

Quit sending me private email, you ****ing moron.....

--

SVL

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:55:00 GMT, "Matthew Beasley"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On 16 Sep 2005 11:01:50 -0700, "szilagyic"
wrote:

Hello:

I am looking for suggestions on Heat Pumps, to replace my current

****ing do your own homework, asshole. Don't broadcast your
bull**** all over the Internet as an alternative.


Gentlemen,

I certainly wish to respect the desire of the community of alt.hvac to not
have the homeowner types spewing all over your group.

I do not respect the use of other groups to repeatedly chastise people
inappropriately posting to alt.hvac. Keep your posts over there and we will
keep ours over here!



And when the OP decides to cross-post to

alt.home.repair,misc.rural,alt.hvac,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac

then we ALL get to 'enjoy' it :-(


Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

"George Willer" wrote in message
...
Don't be disturbed by the ignoramuses that haven't a clue. Since the
ground
source heat pumps of several different kinds draw the main sources of
energy
from outside sources, the total efficiency can be an effective 400% or
more.
The direct exchange units are, naturally, the most efficient


Actually, IIRC many wshps being marketed today have a cop of 5 and above
when operated under ideal conditions......


You can forget about looking for the Bard systems of Bryan, OH, though.
They are no longer fighting the valiant fight to build great systems
because
of these nitwits and Gov't obstacles.


Mine was made by FHP.....but currently, Coldflow probly gives you the most
bang for the buck.


People like and someone with the doubtful
handle of "precision machinist" without a clue are the ones to thank..



snicker

http://tinyurl.com/7u3hd


There's a strong possibility both these morons are the same guy, and
haven't
a useful clue.


....LOL...LOL...LOL...

====

Now......

The first thing is to properly determine your required unit size in btuh
capacity......next step involves investigating which is gonna most
economical for you so far as obtaining a reliable heat source--for instance,
you would need to _know _for_sure_ whether or not you have a sufficient
water flow rate available from your present well.......

If not, then your looking at how much acreage you've got available for
putting in several ground loops, and finally your investigating drilling
costs for installation of vertical loops.....

Cheers,

--

SVL

X-post stopped

extraneous junk snipped

One last comment. I've bought houses with heat pumps on a number of
occasions. I have never liked them. The air isn't nearly as hot as
produced by combustion appliances. Even though the room may be in the
comfort zone, I always felt chilled and I generally like it colder
than most folks. I've almost always installed some sort of gas heat
to replace the heat pump. I install 'em for people on occasion but I
certainly don't like 'em.

Heat pumps when correctly sized and installed are designed to *maintain* a
constant even temperature. They do not deliver a blast of hot air, they are
not designed for that. Approximately 80% of the systems I install are super
high efficiency(13+ SEER) heat pumps and my customers love them. They are so
quiet, that the owner isn't even aware that the system is running, and
*just* the savings in propane will pay for the new heat pump system very
quickly. Most of these customers are amaised at how comfortable their home
has become with the new heat pump system, and how even the temperature
stays.

"Noon-Air" wrote

Heat pumps when correctly sized and installed are designed to *maintain* a
constant even temperature. They do not deliver a blast of hot air, they
are not designed for that. Approximately 80% of the systems I install are
super high efficiency(13+ SEER) heat pumps and my customers love them.
They are so quiet, that the owner isn't even aware that the system is
running, and *just* the savings in propane will pay for the new heat pump
system very quickly. Most of these customers are amaised at how
comfortable their home has become with the new heat pump system, and how
even the temperature stays.

I'll second that. I am one of those that bad-mouthed heat pumps because
'they blow cold air" and were meant for the Carolinas and further south. I
put a 14 SEER Carrier system (with a variable speed air handler) in my dad's
house before he sold it. I told him he needed to get some kind of back up
like gas or oil heat and he said no. He had lived there with a heat pump for
10 years and he was happy with it. Little did I know I would later buy his
house. I have been in there for 4 winters now and I love it. Never really
hear the system running and all I know is: When I come home, it's
comfortable in the house.

O.K., I do have ventless gas logs in the fireplace and I will turn them on
low when it gets down into the teens at night. Sure, the heat pump will do
it on it's own, but i just like the idea of not giving all of my money to
the electric company. ;-]

Now, grant it, I am in Maryland and not Michigan so your mileage may vary.I
just wanted to back up what Noony said.

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:jJUWe.6177$zG1.926@trnddc05...

"Noon-Air" wrote

Heat pumps when correctly sized and installed are designed to *maintain*
a
constant even temperature. They do not deliver a blast of hot air, they
are not designed for that. Approximately 80% of the systems I install
are
super high efficiency(13+ SEER) heat pumps and my customers love them.
They are so quiet, that the owner isn't even aware that the system is
running, and *just* the savings in propane will pay for the new heat
pump
system very quickly. Most of these customers are amaised at how
comfortable their home has become with the new heat pump system, and how
even the temperature stays.

I'll second that. I am one of those that bad-mouthed heat pumps because
'they blow cold air" and were meant for the Carolinas and further south. I
put a 14 SEER Carrier system (with a variable speed air handler) in my
dad's
house before he sold it. I told him he needed to get some kind of back up
like gas or oil heat and he said no. He had lived there with a heat pump
for
10 years and he was happy with it. Little did I know I would later buy his
house. I have been in there for 4 winters now and I love it. Never really
hear the system running and all I know is: When I come home, it's
comfortable in the house.

O.K., I do have ventless gas logs in the fireplace and I will turn them on
low when it gets down into the teens at night. Sure, the heat pump will do
it on it's own, but i just like the idea of not giving all of my money to
the electric company. ;-]

Now, grant it, I am in Maryland and not Michigan so your mileage may
vary.I
just wanted to back up what Noony said.


Problem with air source heat pumps is the capacity drops off as the outdoor
temps get low, a 5k btu typically is only able to produce about 1/2 its
rated capacity during severe cold snaps....efficiency drops some, too but
under these conditions, compressor current draw also drops....

Heplful to look at unit specs to get the idea...most manufacturers have
charts available, showing current draw and btuh capacity at various outdoor
temps....

Heres a chart for some Luxaire package units, see the heating capacities
chart beginning on page 12 of the .pdf document :

http://www.luxaire.com/PDFFiles/036-...002-A-0104.pdf

===

Anyways, in order to make up for this lost heating capacity, electric heat
strips or fossil fuel are typically used as backup heat...kicking in
whenever there is a cold snap where the heat pump can't keep up...

===

Now, the above said, what happens with a well water source unit.......is
that your well water temp don't drop much (if at all) during the
wintertime.....so what this means is that your full unit heating capacity is
always available, and regardless of the outdoor air temps.....hence, greatly
lowered seasonal operating costs are obtained by using a well water source
unit whenever possible, esp anyplace where the climate is "heating
dominated".......this because the unit is always running at close to full
efficiency and so your backup electric or fossil heating rarely even kicks
in....backup heat mostly only being needed for in the case the heat pump
unit might actually fail.

--

SVL

In article ,
(PrecisionMachinisT) says...

Now, the above said, what happens with a well water source unit.......is
that your well water temp don't drop much (if at all) during the
wintertime.....so what this means is that your full unit heating capacity is
always available, and regardless of the outdoor air temps.....hence, greatly
lowered seasonal operating costs are obtained by using a well water source
unit whenever possible, esp anyplace where the climate is "heating
dominated".......this because the unit is always running at close to full
efficiency and so your backup electric or fossil heating rarely even kicks
in....backup heat mostly only being needed for in the case the heat pump
unit might actually fail.

The efficiency gain also applies during the summer air conditioning
season. Well water doesn't warm much at all in the summer, so the heat
pump is discharging heat into 55 degree water rather than 100 degree
air. If you have plenty of water, a water source heat pump is an
outstanding year-round HVAC system. Ground source can be as efficient,
but is substantially more expensive to install. For energy
conservation, you can't beat a water source heat pump.

Backup heat systems should be available for periods of power failure.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"Larry Caldwell" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
(PrecisionMachinisT) says...

Now, the above said, what happens with a well water source unit.......is
that your well water temp don't drop much (if at all) during the
wintertime.....so what this means is that your full unit heating
capacity is
always available, and regardless of the outdoor air temps.....hence,
greatly
lowered seasonal operating costs are obtained by using a well water
source
unit whenever possible, esp anyplace where the climate is "heating
dominated".......this because the unit is always running at close to
full
efficiency and so your backup electric or fossil heating rarely even
kicks
in....backup heat mostly only being needed for in the case the heat pump
unit might actually fail.

The efficiency gain also applies during the summer air conditioning
season. Well water doesn't warm much at all in the summer, so the heat
pump is discharging heat into 55 degree water rather than 100 degree
air. If you have plenty of water, a water source heat pump is an
outstanding year-round HVAC system. Ground source can be as efficient,
but is substantially more expensive to install. For energy
conservation, you can't beat a water source heat pump.

Backup heat systems should be available for periods of power failure.


All excellent points.....

==

But since I happen to reside in a heating dominated climate, I haven't
personally studied all the economics as to the cooling of environmental
space using water source heat pumps at any great length...

Mostly, I've resigned to feeling kinda smug in that during our about 3
months of cooling season, ( Pacific Northwest ) we revert to rejecting any
waste heat from the home into our swimming pool, instead of using the well
water source.

And FWIW, this is also at the point in time where we are also using quite a
bit of water for irrigation--and so it seems to work out fairly
nicely.......

YMMV

--

SVL