In tile, stone floor tile, for example, are the grout lines more prone
to crack if they are wide?

Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?

--
|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||

Nehmo wrote:
In tile, stone floor tile, for example, are the grout lines more prone
to crack if they are wide?

Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?


Depends upon what grout you use in conjuction with the width of the
joint, as well as various other structural and substrate criteria...

Nehmo wrote:
In tile, stone floor tile, for example, are the grout lines more prone
to crack if they are wide?

yes.




Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?


grout is harder to clean than tile. the less grout showing, the easier
cleanup will be.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Nehmo wrote:
In tile, stone floor tile, for example, are the grout lines
more prone
to crack if they are wide?

yes.




Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow
over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?


grout is harder to clean than tile. the less grout showing,
the easier
cleanup will be.


You need enough grout width for it to create a strong
joint...too thin and its weak, cracks out and leaks water.

Phil Scott

It also depends on tile size. A larger tile or tile whose width varies
slightly (hand made etc) needs a wider grout line. For example, if you
have a 12" or 18" tile with 1/16" grout line it does give much room to
adjust your grout lines or to compensate for width variations.

Nehmo writes:

Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?

The only purpose of grout lines is to take up and fit the irregularities of
tile size, floor flatness, and installer skill. The smaller the better.
The grout itself is an inferior flooring material, and the less of it, the
better.

Grout requires the use of water to form a bond and water is of course H2O.
It is the presence of hydrogen that functions as the catalyst for the
chemical reaction the forms the bond. Too much water; cracked grout. Too
little water; cracked grout. Too wide of a grout line; cracked grout.
Control of the hydrogen bonding process is easily compromised.

It helps to go to college and learn physics but it can be much less
expensive if you simply read and follow the manufacturer's specifications
and use the grout recommended for your design requirements.

%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/


"G Henslee" wrote in message
...
Nehmo wrote:
In tile, stone floor tile, for example, are the grout lines more prone
to crack if they are wide?

Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?


Depends upon what grout you use in conjuction with the width of the joint,
as well as various other structural and substrate criteria...

Richard J Kinch wrote:



The only purpose of grout lines is to take up and fit the irregularities of
tile size, floor flatness, and installer skill. The smaller the better.
The grout itself is an inferior flooring material, and the less of it, the
better.
WRONG! Too small of a grout line can cause water leakage. You need a
sufficiently wide enough grout line to pack in a full depth, full width
line of grout.

Dave

"David" wrote in message
...
Richard J Kinch wrote:



The only purpose of grout lines is to take up and fit the irregularities
of tile size, floor flatness, and installer skill. The smaller the
better. The grout itself is an inferior flooring material, and the less
of it, the better.
WRONG! Too small of a grout line can cause water leakage. You need a
sufficiently wide enough grout line to pack in a full depth, full width
line of grout.

Dave

Most of the posters above are limiting their comments to sanded grout.
Epoxy grout is very durable and non porus and resists cracking very well.
In general most products don't work well below 1/8" gap

IMHO it is mostly an asthetic choice since once you decide what tile and
spacing looks good, you simply buy the appropriate grout to fill it in. The
hard part is choosing the color.

WRONG! Too small of a grout line can cause water leakage. You need a
sufficiently wide enough grout line to pack in a full depth, full width
line of grout.

Dave

Where does the "water" come from when he asks about 'stone floor tile, for
example' ?

R

Epoxy grout sounds great - would think one would have to be very
careful to get the excess cleaned off the tile before the epoxy "fires"
or sets. Is it much harder to use than ordinary grout?

Rudy wrote:
WRONG! Too small of a grout line can cause water leakage. You need a
sufficiently wide enough grout line to pack in a full depth, full width
line of grout.

Dave


Where does the "water" come from when he asks about 'stone floor tile, for
example' ?

R



He's talking out of his ass like you do Canookie boy.

David writes:

WRONG! Too small of a grout line can cause water leakage.

Don't be absurd. Grout joints are never watertight. They all leak.

On 9 Sep 2005 06:52:34 -0700, "butch burton"
wrote:

Epoxy grout sounds great - would think one would have to be very
careful to get the excess cleaned off the tile before the epoxy "fires"
or sets. Is it much harder to use than ordinary grout?

See this thread for my first experience with epoxy grout:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.h...cb46cc9dd0421a


If that link doesn't wrap: http://tinyurl.com/btnep

DJ

Thanks for the link - copies the articles to my house how to files
under grout.

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:33:50 +0000, Nehmo wrote:

In tile, stone floor tile, for example, are the grout lines more prone
to crack if they are wide?

Grout width is a personal/aesthetic thing. If the floor is going to flex
enough to the grout to crack, the tile will eventually too. With 12" tile
I like a 1/4" grout line. I'm doing a bunch now, in fact.

Other than aesthetics, is there any advantage of narrow over wide, or
visa versa, grout lines?

Not really, though it *may* be easier down the line to cut wider grout out
to replace it. I wouldn't consider this to be a magor advantage though.
The big thing is to make sure the substrate that you're mounting the tile
to is stiff enough.

--
Keith

He's talking out of his ass

****off Henslee, you wimp.

If the floor is going to flex
enough to the grout to crack, the tile will eventually too. With 12"
tile
I like a 1/4" grout line. I'm doing a bunch now, in fact.
snip

In the areas with tile, will have 3/4" T&G exterior grade plywood,
glued and screwed down to manufactured joists consisting of 2x4
connected with a metal web with web being 12" high. In the areas with
tile - will attach 3/4" OSB UNDER the 3/4" plywood with screws and glue
to reinforce the floor to keep it from flexing under the tile. Is the
latter necessary - will a 24" span between manufactured web joists flex
too much. Don't want to go to the expense of putting down a double
thickness of decking everywhere. Maybe simpler -easier but it would
cost a lot more.

Thanks

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:57:25 -0700, butch burton wrote:

If the floor is going to flex
enough to the grout to crack, the tile will eventually too. With 12"
tile
I like a 1/4" grout line. I'm doing a bunch now, in fact.
snip

In the areas with tile, will have 3/4" T&G exterior grade plywood,
glued and screwed down to manufactured joists consisting of 2x4
connected with a metal web with web being 12" high. In the areas with
tile - will attach 3/4" OSB UNDER the 3/4" plywood with screws and glue
to reinforce the floor to keep it from flexing under the tile. Is the
latter necessary - will a 24" span between manufactured web joists flex
too much. Don't want to go to the expense of putting down a double
thickness of decking everywhere. Maybe simpler -easier but it would
cost a lot more.

Disclaimer: I'm a homeowner, not a pro...

I think that may flex too much. The specs for tile call for
at least 1-1/4" subfloor (on 16" joist centers, I think). My house has
3/4" plywood over 2x8's 16" O.C. Where I tile, I add 1/2" Hardi-Backer
across the beams (not aligned with the ply). That is put down in thinset
and screwed every 8". I also use the thinset that's designed to allow a
little flex (FlexBond is the brand name, IIRC) for mounting the tile. It's
expensive, but not nearly as much as a cracked tile. I also shimmed and
glued under the subfloor, where possible, to try to eliminate any movement
I could.

My downstairs bathroom and laundry seem to be OK after a year. I'm now
doing the foyer coat-closet and upstairs 1/2 bath. Finished the
harti-backer yesterday and cut all the tiles (toilet is a PITA). Today is
tile day. Fun, fun, fun. ;-)

--
Keith

- keith -
I'm now doing ...upstairs 1/2 bath. Finished the
harti-backer yesterday and cut all the tiles (toilet is a PITA).

- Nehmo -
Why would cutting for the toilet be hard? You removed the toilet, didn't
you?

--
|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:09:40 +0000, Nehmo wrote:

- keith -
I'm now doing ...upstairs 1/2 bath. Finished the
harti-backer yesterday and cut all the tiles (toilet is a PITA).

- Nehmo -
Why would cutting for the toilet be hard? You removed the toilet, didn't
you?

Of course! It's still sitting next to the computer. ;-)

It sounds like you've been here, so I hope I don't seem like a fool,
but floor tile is *HARD*. I had no problem cuttign a 4" hole in wall tile
for a dryer vent in the laundry with a RotoZip, circle cutter, and carbide
bit. The floor tile just laughed at that setup (and the carbide bit got
quite embarrased).

So... The only way I managed to cut the holes for the toilets (this is
the second of three bathrooms) was the "death of a thousand cuts", with
the wet saw and nippers. At least the upstairs bathroom hole went through
four tiles. The downstairs was 90% in one tile. While this isn't
impossible, it is a PITA.

--
Keith

keith wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:09:40 +0000, Nehmo wrote:

- keith -
I'm now doing ...upstairs 1/2 bath. Finished the
harti-backer yesterday and cut all the tiles (toilet is a PITA).

- Nehmo -
Why would cutting for the toilet be hard? You removed the toilet, didn't
you?

Of course! It's still sitting next to the computer. ;-)

It sounds like you've been here, so I hope I don't seem like a fool,
but floor tile is *HARD*. I had no problem cuttign a 4" hole in wall tile
for a dryer vent in the laundry with a RotoZip, circle cutter, and carbide
bit. The floor tile just laughed at that setup (and the carbide bit got
quite embarrased).

So... The only way I managed to cut the holes for the toilets (this is
the second of three bathrooms) was the "death of a thousand cuts", with
the wet saw and nippers. At least the upstairs bathroom hole went through
four tiles. The downstairs was 90% in one tile. While this isn't
impossible, it is a PITA.

You could bring a difficult piece like that to a stained glass place.
They have diamond bandsaws with extremely thin blades. They can do
scroll work in the tile if you'd like. They might charge you $20, but
it's worth it if you don't have the tools or inclination to do it other
ways.

R

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:45:52 -0700, RicodJour wrote:

keith wrote:
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:09:40 +0000, Nehmo wrote:

- keith -
I'm now doing ...upstairs 1/2 bath. Finished the
harti-backer yesterday and cut all the tiles (toilet is a PITA).

- Nehmo -
Why would cutting for the toilet be hard? You removed the toilet, didn't
you?

Of course! It's still sitting next to the computer. ;-)

It sounds like you've been here, so I hope I don't seem like a fool,
but floor tile is *HARD*. I had no problem cuttign a 4" hole in wall tile
for a dryer vent in the laundry with a RotoZip, circle cutter, and carbide
bit. The floor tile just laughed at that setup (and the carbide bit got
quite embarrased).

So... The only way I managed to cut the holes for the toilets (this is
the second of three bathrooms) was the "death of a thousand cuts", with
the wet saw and nippers. At least the upstairs bathroom hole went through
four tiles. The downstairs was 90% in one tile. While this isn't
impossible, it is a PITA.

You could bring a difficult piece like that to a stained glass place.
They have diamond bandsaws with extremely thin blades. They can do
scroll work in the tile if you'd like. They might charge you $20, but
it's worth it if you don't have the tools or inclination to do it other
ways.

slap! I never thought of that! $20 might be worth it, though accuracy
isn't all that important in this application. I'll keep that in mind
though! I have one more to go, perhaps next spring after the thaw. ;-)

--

Keith

"keith" wrote in message
news
So... The only way I managed to cut the holes for the toilets (this is
the second of three bathrooms) was the "death of a thousand cuts", with
the wet saw and nippers. At least the upstairs bathroom hole went through
four tiles. The downstairs was 90% in one tile. While this isn't
impossible, it is a PITA

Not sure how your layout lined up, but typically you have enough slop (the
hole is a lot smaller than the toilet above) that you can just use some
straight lines and approximate it.

Even the "nibble away with a wet saw" shouldn't have taken too long, if you
have a halfway decent wet saw (my cheapo Harbor Freight one does this sort
of thing with no problem). The hardest cut I've seen was getting 1/2"
marble trimmed around the radius-edge of the tub in our old house. I laid
out the cut and let my wife do it grin. She's a lot more detail-oriented
than me, and took probably a thousand trips down to the garage, nibbed off a
little, came up, test-fit it, repeat ad-infitim...

-Tim

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:03:15 -0500, "Tim Fischer"
wrote:

Even the "nibble away with a wet saw" shouldn't have taken too long, if you
have a halfway decent wet saw (my cheapo Harbor Freight one does this sort
of thing with no problem). The hardest cut I've seen was getting 1/2"
marble trimmed around the radius-edge of the tub in our old house. I laid
out the cut and let my wife do it grin. She's a lot more detail-oriented
than me, and took probably a thousand trips down to the garage, nibbed off a
little, came up, test-fit it, repeat ad-infitim...

You are the perfect husband, in this case. Good job!!

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:03:15 -0500, Tim Fischer wrote:

"keith" wrote in message
news
So... The only way I managed to cut the holes for the toilets (this is
the second of three bathrooms) was the "death of a thousand cuts", with
the wet saw and nippers. At least the upstairs bathroom hole went through
four tiles. The downstairs was 90% in one tile. While this isn't
impossible, it is a PITA

Not sure how your layout lined up, but typically you have enough slop (the
hole is a lot smaller than the toilet above) that you can just use some
straight lines and approximate it.

Sure, there is slop, but as a non-professional I don't know how much. The
flange is 7" diameter, so there is no way the toilet base is less than
that. Is it 8"? 12"? Where does it really sit? Where is the weight?

I wanted the hole as small as possible and centered on, well, the hole.

Even the "nibble away with a wet saw" shouldn't have taken too long, if
you have a halfway decent wet saw (my cheapo Harbor Freight one does
this sort of thing with no problem).

It's a cheapo BORG one, that I've had for five years or so. I've seen the
HF unit on line and would have bought that (cheaper, larger, and legs).
This is a MK-Diamond unit that cost me about $250. It works fine, but to
cut the toilet hole still takes the better part of an hour. The
downstairs one longer, since it was 90% in one tile. More cuts, fewer
angles (broke the first attempt). The circular blade doesn't cut
verticallly, either. Back-cutting... Not impossible, just a PITA, as I
said.

The hardest cut I've seen was
getting 1/2" marble trimmed around the radius-edge of the tub in our old
house. I laid out the cut and let my wife do it grin. She's a lot
more detail-oriented than me, and took probably a thousand trips down to
the garage, nibbed off a little, came up, test-fit it, repeat
ad-infitim...

I'd be wearing not only the marble, but the saw (still running).

--
Keith

"keith" wrote in message
news

I'd be wearing not only the marble, but the saw (still running).

LOL! I should have mentioned that she's my "project partner" and is very
willing to swing a hammer or do whatever it takes to help out.

-Tim

Tim Fischer writes:

The hardest cut I've seen was getting 1/2"
marble trimmed around the radius-edge of the tub in our old house. I
laid out the cut and let my wife do it grin. She's a lot more
detail-oriented than me, and took probably a thousand trips down to
the garage, nibbed off a little, came up, test-fit it, repeat
ad-infitim.

Next time do it in one trip: make a paper template to fit, and trace that
onto the tile.

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
Tim Fischer writes:
Next time do it in one trip: make a paper template to fit, and trace that
onto the tile.

Oh, we did, actually. It's just that she learns from me, and I subscribe to
the "it's easier to take more off then put more on" theory (or as I put it
with woodworking -- "easier to cut twice than stretch it..."

-Tim