Looking at the floor joists of our porch I noticed they are resting on a
long board that is nailed horizontally into the band joist. The porch has
to be at least 60 - 80 years old. I can't believe the board has supported
these joist without separating from the sill all these years. I'm not a
carpenter, but I can tell this isn't a good way to support a floor, even if
it is just a porch floor. The joists span 9.5 feet. Pictures of the 3rd -
8th joists in this site http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html show
you how the joist rest on this hanging board. You can't see the sill it's
nailed into.

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same time.
Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both beams/boards.
However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist supporting board may come
loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way to replace or support this
beam so it will have some more structural integrity?

"Charlie S." wrote in message
news:65BKe.5875$D4.4999@trndny07...
Looking at the floor joists of our porch I noticed they are resting on a
long board that is nailed horizontally into the band joist. The porch has
to be at least 60 - 80 years old. I can't believe the board has supported
these joist without separating from the sill all these years. I'm not a
carpenter, but I can tell this isn't a good way to support a floor, even
if it is just a porch floor. The joists span 9.5 feet. Pictures of the
3rd - 8th joists in this site http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html
show you how the joist rest on this hanging board. You can't see the sill
it's nailed into.

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same
time. Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both
beams/boards. However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist supporting
board may come loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way to replace
or support this beam so it will have some more structural integrity?
Not sure if this is the Usenet group I should be using to post this type of
question. Any suggestions on where to turn to for this type of help?

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Charlie S. wrote:

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same
time. Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both
beams/boards. However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist supporting
board may come loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way to replace
or support this beam so it will have some more structural integrity?

http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html

This is probably as good a place as any to post this.

I looked at the pics and was unclear what exactly the " A-frame
structures" you were proposing were and how/where they would fit?

Have you considered joist hangers? I am not a carpenter but I have seen
those used in these sort of circumstances.

Was that a hole you were trying to highlight with the flashlight? It is
difficult to see.

---
Lord, protect me from those to whom you speak directly
All salute the new age, and I hope nobody escapes

"P. Thompson" wrote in message
ocaldomain...
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Charlie S. wrote:

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same
time. Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both
beams/boards. However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist
supporting
board may come loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way to
replace
or support this beam so it will have some more structural integrity?

http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html

This is probably as good a place as any to post this.

I looked at the pics and was unclear what exactly the " A-frame
structures" you were proposing were and how/where they would fit?

http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html

I was thinking of building a smaller version of the porch swing A-frame I
just posted on the site (see above). I would cut the top of the A to make
it flat and rest the the sill on it. I would probably use smaller beams to
holds the two sides together.

I also posted some diagrams of what I'm trying to build and do. I don't
know how clear they might be.

Have you considered joist hangers? I am not a carpenter but I have seen
those used in these sort of circumstances.

Hanger joist may be helpful, but these floors are not that thick. I'd have
to use short nails or screws... not offering much support. When I am
finished with the granite footings and outside posts, I was thinking of
running two 2x8's perpendicular to the joists and support them on posts.


Was that a hole you were trying to highlight with the flashlight? It is
difficult to see.

I was just trying to make it easier to see the conditions of the joists and
their connecting points. The tenth joist seems to have some damage.

"P. Thompson" wrote in message
ocaldomain...
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005, Charlie S. wrote:

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same
time. Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both
beams/boards. However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist
supporting
board may come loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way to
replace
or support this beam so it will have some more structural integrity?

http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html

This is probably as good a place as any to post this.

I looked at the pics and was unclear what exactly the " A-frame
structures" you were proposing were and how/where they would fit?

http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html

I was thinking of building a smaller version of the porch swing A-frame I
just posted on the site (see above). I would cut the top of the A to make
it flat and rest the the sill on it. I would probably use smaller beams to
holds the two sides together.

I also posted some diagrams of what I'm trying to build and do. I don't
know how clear they might be.

Have you considered joist hangers? I am not a carpenter but I have seen
those used in these sort of circumstances.

Hanger joist may be helpful, but these floors are not that thick. I'd have
to use short nails or screws... not offering much support. When I am
finished with the granite footings and outside posts, I was thinking of
running two 2x8's perpendicular to the joists and support them on posts.


Was that a hole you were trying to highlight with the flashlight? It is
difficult to see.

I was just trying to make it easier to see the conditions of the joists and
their connecting points. The tenth joist seems to have some damage.

"Charlie S." wrote in message
news:65BKe.5875$D4.4999@trndny07...
Looking at the floor joists of our porch I noticed they are resting on a
long board that is nailed horizontally into the band joist. The porch has
to be at least 60 - 80 years old. I can't believe the board has supported
these joist without separating from the sill all these years. I'm not a
carpenter, but I can tell this isn't a good way to support a floor, even
if it is just a porch floor. The joists span 9.5 feet. Pictures of the
3rd - 8th joists in this site http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html
show you how the joist rest on this hanging board. You can't see the sill
it's nailed into.

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same
time. Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both
beams/boards. However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist supporting
board may come loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way to replace
or support this beam so it will have some more structural integrity?


I wouldn't get really worried if it has held this way for over 60 years. If
you want to reinforce the floor joist to band joist connection the way to do
it is with joist hangers. In this case the ones that wrap around the bottom
won't work so you will have to go with the simple angle plates. As you can
see from the cracks extending from the notches, that's why code doesn't
allow that anymore. The 10D nails made specifically for the joist hangers
have a vertical shear load, not a pull out load, so the 1 1/2 inch length is
plenty.

Not sure where you are going with the A frame. The porch is attached to the
house so you only have to worry about a vertical load. Are you replacing
the block columns? If so, I'd get some 4x4s, foot long pieces of maybe 2x8
and some oak shims from a mobile home supply store (or a bunch of cabinet
shims). Cut the 4x4s 2 inches short of the distance from joist to footer
(if going to ground you will need some 4" concrete blocks to spread the load
on the ground). Put the 2x8s so they spread the load on the band joist and
the horizontal board and put the 4x4 under it. Then slide two oak shims
into the space between the 4x4 and the 2x8 and tap them till everything is
really tight. One 4x4 next to each column (on each side at the corner)
ought to be plenty until you get the permanent columns built. Put a second
4x4 on a floor or bottle jack if you need to adjust for any settling.

Steve.

"SteveF" wrote in message
.com...

"Charlie S." wrote in message
news:65BKe.5875$D4.4999@trndny07...
Looking at the floor joists of our porch I noticed they are resting on a
long board that is nailed horizontally into the band joist. The porch
has to be at least 60 - 80 years old. I can't believe the board has
supported these joist without separating from the sill all these years.
I'm not a carpenter, but I can tell this isn't a good way to support a
floor, even if it is just a porch floor. The joists span 9.5 feet.
Pictures of the 3rd - 8th joists in this site
http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html show you how the joist rest on
this hanging board. You can't see the sill it's nailed into.

Need to shore up the porch before putting in new posts. Thus, I need to
support the outer band joist and this joists holding board at the same
time. Was looking to use A-frame structures to catch the both
beams/boards. However, I am just afraid the nails of this joist
supporting board may come loose or crack if I don't do it right. Any way
to replace or support this beam so it will have some more structural
integrity?


I wouldn't get really worried if it has held this way for over 60 years.
If you want to reinforce the floor joist to band joist connection the way
to do it is with joist hangers. In this case the ones that wrap around
the bottom won't work so you will have to go with the simple angle plates.
As you can see from the cracks extending from the notches, that's why code
doesn't allow that anymore. The 10D nails made specifically for the joist
hangers have a vertical shear load, not a pull out load, so the 1 1/2 inch
length is plenty.

Not sure where you are going with the A frame. The porch is attached to
the house so you only have to worry about a vertical load. Are you
replacing the block columns? If so, I'd get some 4x4s, foot long pieces
of maybe 2x8 and some oak shims from a mobile home supply store (or a
bunch of cabinet shims). Cut the 4x4s 2 inches short of the distance from
joist to footer (if going to ground you will need some 4" concrete blocks
to spread the load on the ground). Put the 2x8s so they spread the load
on the band joist and the horizontal board and put the 4x4 under it.

I think you are saying to nail the 2x8 beneath the band joist and the joist
hanger... to spread the load. I like the concept and will do something
similar. The only problem is I can't put the 4x4 underneath it because I
have to remove the granite footing and pour a new footing first.. either
sauna tubes or a form. I prefer the form. You may have seen the
footings..on the link http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id1.html

I need to make a support that gives me total access to the area beneath the
sill without the support resting on the space beneath it. I figured some
sort of A-frame setup would give me more room to work with.

I had also thought of supporting the band joist by using a 6x6 to run
perpendicular it. The 6x6 would run from under the porch to outside. It
would be supported by a platform with jacks on both sides. A contractor I
spoke with said jacks would be too risky. I added a picture of the jack
setup I was thinking about to the website. Please see
http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html
From the picture, it looks simple. And, doesn't seem that risky to me.
But, I don't work with these things all the time.

into the space between the 4x4 and the 2x8 and tap them till everything is
really tight. One 4x4 next to each column (on each side at the corner)
ought to be plenty until you get the permanent columns built. Put a
second 4x4 on a floor or bottle jack if you need to adjust for any
settling.

I think you are saying to nail the 2x8 beneath the band joist and the
joist hanger... to spread the load. I like the concept and will do
something similar. The only problem is I can't put the 4x4 underneath it
because I have to remove the granite footing and pour a new footing
first.. either sauna tubes or a form. I prefer the form. You may have
seen the footings..on the link http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id1.html

I need to make a support that gives me total access to the area beneath
the sill without the support resting on the space beneath it. I figured
some sort of A-frame setup would give me more room to work with.

I had also thought of supporting the band joist by using a 6x6 to run
perpendicular it. The 6x6 would run from under the porch to outside. It
would be supported by a platform with jacks on both sides. A contractor I
spoke with said jacks would be too risky. I added a picture of the jack
setup I was thinking about to the website. Please see
http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html
From the picture, it looks simple. And, doesn't seem that risky to me.
But, I don't work with these things all the time.


Got it. One thing that might help is for you to do a rough estimate of the
weight of the porch. It's hard to tell the size of the porch from the
pictures but I'd bet the whole thing doesn't weigh more than 2 or 3 thousand
pounds. A 6 x 6 is overkill. Since you are rebuilding the footers I'd use
either A frames made of 4 x 4s with 2 x 6s (two at the top (one on each
side), one down as far as you can go and still leave room to work on the
footers) attached to the sides with 3" deck screws OR just put a 2 x 6 under
the full length of the floor joists about 2 foot back from the band joist
and then support with vertical 4 x 4s on maybe every third joist. Option 2
is a little tricky as you need to see how the load from the wall is
transferred down the wall. If they built the floor joist structure and then
put down some substantial wood for the floor so that the wall can be carried
by the floor joists this would work. If the floor structure isn't very
substantial, like if they used 1 x 4s, then the load might break off the
edge of the floor and option 2 won't work.

Aren't older houses fun?!

Steve.

"SteveF" wrote in message
.com...


I think you are saying to nail the 2x8 beneath the band joist and the
joist hanger... to spread the load. I like the concept and will do
something similar. The only problem is I can't put the 4x4 underneath it
because I have to remove the granite footing and pour a new footing
first.. either sauna tubes or a form. I prefer the form. You may have
seen the footings..on the link http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id1.html

I need to make a support that gives me total access to the area beneath
the sill without the support resting on the space beneath it. I figured
some sort of A-frame setup would give me more room to work with.

I had also thought of supporting the band joist by using a 6x6 to run
perpendicular it. The 6x6 would run from under the porch to outside. It
would be supported by a platform with jacks on both sides. A contractor
I spoke with said jacks would be too risky. I added a picture of the
jack setup I was thinking about to the website. Please see
http://mysite.verizon.net/stamkis/id2.html
From the picture, it looks simple. And, doesn't seem that risky to me.
But, I don't work with these things all the time.


Got it. One thing that might help is for you to do a rough estimate of
the weight of the porch. It's hard to tell the size of the porch from the
pictures but I'd bet the whole thing doesn't weigh more than 2 or 3
thousand pounds. A 6 x 6 is overkill. Since you are rebuilding the
footers I'd use either A frames made of 4 x 4s with 2 x 6s (two at the top
(one on each side), one down as far as you can go and still leave room to
work on the footers) attached to the sides with 3" deck screws OR just put
a 2 x 6 under the full length of the floor joists about 2 foot back from
the band joist and then support with vertical 4 x 4s on maybe every third
joist.

Sorry for the late response. I didn't realize you replied. Thanks for your
help!
I am confused by what you are describing.... could you elaborate more. I'm
practically non-spacial. "A frames made of 4x4s." In other words all the
/ , \ , --.parts of the A would be made of 4x4's. After this I lose you.

"with 2x6s (two at the top (one on each side), etc"

2x6s at the top, Do you mean running flat and parallel with the band and
hanging joist? If so, why not one long 2x6 that runs the length of the
band? What's attached to the sides? Sides of what? How? (Sorry, it's not
your fault I have a difficult time visualizing.)







Option 2
is a little tricky as you need to see how the load from the wall is
transferred down the wall. If they built the floor joist structure and
then put down some substantial wood for the floor so that the wall can be
carried by the floor joists this would work. If the floor structure isn't
very substantial, like if they used 1 x 4s, then the load might break off
the edge of the floor and option 2 won't work.

Aren't older houses fun?!

Steve.