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#1
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs
windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did warn her!!) who had done it up to re-sale. There was no sign of damp then, it all being freshly decorated. The property is an 1890 end terrace on a high exposed location facing the prevailing wind, and rain does drive against this wall at times. The outside is rendered with small chips (spar?) in a yellowish base. There are a couple of hairline cracks in the render below the windows, and that area has been treated a couple of times recently with silicone fluid without any improvement to the damp patch. There are two adjacent rooms with windows in identical situations, and one has a large ugly damp patch below the sill, whilst the other shows only a very small patch about 3" diameter. The bad damp patch is about 3 ft wide by 1 ft high, starting 9" below the sill. I did the 'glass-slip plasticined to the wall' test to verify that it is damp and not condensation, and this was very clear with gross condensation on the inside glass surface. The builder had replaced the original sash windows with uPVC, and the sills are now concrete, and I suspect the sill heights have been increased. These sills are not 'bought' concrete ones but appear to have been cast locally, possibly in-situ. The finish is pretty poor and the top surface seems to be hand trowelled and not very flat. In fact there are some hollows that retain little puddles on the sill with the worst damp problem. I gave both sills a thorough soaking with silicone fluid a couple of weeks ago and this soaked into them very readily, so I am wondering if they are porous (or were, before siliconing). The damp patch has slowly dried back since the winter, and left ugly efflorescence marks behind. A test with my damp meter (a cheap squawk type) confirmed the surface to be almost dry compared to the winter wetness. Having now siliconed the sills, as well as the walls, I am hoping that further wet will be kept out, and so last week I decided to hack off the plaster with a view to making good the interior efflorescence, but I found some unexpected things. The plaster turned out to be only a skim of 3-4 mms on a sand/cement render. I assume that the builder did this to suppress the damp, but it is obviously ineffectual, so I hacked it all off - that turned out to quite a test for my cheapo Screwfix SDS+ drill, but was a dream compared to doing it by hand. I found the render to be covering a real mess of brickwork, but the main surprise was that the bricks were actually quite wet, the wettest being right under the sill. I surmise now that the problem IS that the sill is porous and water is percolating down from the sill becoming trapped between the (hopefully) waterproof cement render on the inside and outside surfaces. I suspect that the whole inner wall is rendered, at least up to the sill level rather than just over the damp area. Certainly the 4' x 1' area I hacked off did not reach the limit of the render. Incidentally, i could not detect any dampness on the outside rendered wall, perhaps not surprising as the weather has been dry and warm. I am leaving it for a few days to see how this wet dries out, now that it can via the exposed inner brick surface. What I need now is advice on is what to do to make good the inside wall. I am not convinced that re-rendering it is a good idea - I want to stop the damp at source, and the original render put on to contain it has not worked very well. Is a 'waterproof' rendering really waterproof? I suspect that under the pressure of a couple of feet of water inside the brickwork wet will seep through; or could it be that the builder didn't mix the render correctly? I am also worried about the poor quality of the sills, and suppose that we may have to replace them if wet continues to enter the wall in spite of the silicone treatment. In one sense, not rendering the inside will at least allow me to quickly see if wet is still entering from outside, whereas I imagine rendering it will delay the occurrence of future damp but not totally stop it. What is involved in replacing a sill should that be needed? Any advice or comments will be much appreciated. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me -- Phil Addison The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#2
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:24:16 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote: My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did warn her!!) who had done it up to re-sale. There was no sign of damp then, it all being freshly decorated. The property is an 1890 end terrace on a high exposed location facing the prevailing wind, and rain does drive against this wall at times. The outside is rendered with small chips (spar?) in a yellowish base. There are a couple of hairline cracks in the render below the windows, and that area has been treated a couple of times recently with silicone fluid without any improvement to the damp patch. There are two adjacent rooms with windows in identical situations, and one has a large ugly damp patch below the sill, whilst the other shows only a very small patch about 3" diameter. The bad damp patch is about 3 ft wide by 1 ft high, starting 9" below the sill. I did the 'glass-slip plasticined to the wall' test to verify that it is damp and not condensation, and this was very clear with gross condensation on the inside glass surface. The builder had replaced the original sash windows with uPVC, and the sills are now concrete, and I suspect the sill heights have been increased. These sills are not 'bought' concrete ones but appear to have been cast locally, possibly in-situ. The finish is pretty poor and the top surface seems to be hand trowelled and not very flat. In fact there are some hollows that retain little puddles on the sill with the worst damp problem. I gave both sills a thorough soaking with silicone fluid a couple of weeks ago and this soaked into them very readily, so I am wondering if they are porous (or were, before siliconing). It rather sounds like there is the problem right there, Phil. I had exactly the same situation in the first house that we bought, except it was the ground floor windows. The walls had been rendered following an injection damp treatment. I also did the soaking in silicone fluid thing. It did have some effect but water would still find its way past. In the end, the cills were taken out and replaced with proper ones and the problem stopped. The damp patch has slowly dried back since the winter, and left ugly efflorescence marks behind. A test with my damp meter (a cheap squawk type) confirmed the surface to be almost dry compared to the winter wetness. Having now siliconed the sills, as well as the walls, I am hoping that further wet will be kept out, and so last week I decided to hack off the plaster with a view to making good the interior efflorescence, but I found some unexpected things. The plaster turned out to be only a skim of 3-4 mms on a sand/cement render. I assume that the builder did this to suppress the damp, but it is obviously ineffectual, so I hacked it all off - that turned out to quite a test for my cheapo Screwfix SDS+ drill, but was a dream compared to doing it by hand. On ours there was render instead of the special plaster normally recommended after a damp treatment. I ripped it all off. The bricks being damp isn't that surprising. They could also be porous. If the dampness is in a patch below the cill then the implication is of water soaking down rather than through the bricks. I found the render to be covering a real mess of brickwork, but the main surprise was that the bricks were actually quite wet, the wettest being right under the sill. I surmise now that the problem IS that the sill is porous and water is percolating down from the sill becoming trapped between the (hopefully) waterproof cement render on the inside and outside surfaces. I suspect that the whole inner wall is rendered, at least up to the sill level rather than just over the damp area. Certainly the 4' x 1' area I hacked off did not reach the limit of the render. Incidentally, i could not detect any dampness on the outside rendered wall, perhaps not surprising as the weather has been dry and warm. I am leaving it for a few days to see how this wet dries out, now that it can via the exposed inner brick surface. What I need now is advice on is what to do to make good the inside wall. I am not convinced that re-rendering it is a good idea - I want to stop the damp at source, and the original render put on to contain it has not worked very well. Is a 'waterproof' rendering really waterproof? Certainly trapping any water behind any making good is asking for trouble. I suspect that under the pressure of a couple of feet of water inside the brickwork wet will seep through; or could it be that the builder didn't mix the render correctly? I am also worried about the poor quality of the sills, and suppose that we may have to replace them if wet continues to enter the wall in spite of the silicone treatment. In one sense, not rendering the inside will at least allow me to quickly see if wet is still entering from outside, whereas I imagine rendering it will delay the occurrence of future damp but not totally stop it. I remember testing mine with a hose played on it for about half an hour. Even after the siliconing (which did help a bit), water continued to seep through. What is involved in replacing a sill should that be needed? To be honest, I didn't do it, a builder who was doing other work did. Basically though, it wasn't that difficult. He removed the window frame and then carefully chopped out the mortar from around the cill and removed and replaced it with a "new" one - actually a stone one from a reclamation place. No further trouble after that. Any advice or comments will be much appreciated. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#3
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
In article ,
Phil Addison writes: My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did warn her!!) who had done it up to re-sale. There was no sign of damp then, it all being freshly decorated. That would probably be about the time to inspect and possibly replace the sealant around the window. The builder had replaced the original sash windows with uPVC, and the sills are now concrete, and I suspect the sill heights have been increased. These sills are not 'bought' concrete ones but appear to have been cast locally, possibly in-situ. The finish is pretty poor and the top surface seems to be hand trowelled and not very flat. In fact there are some hollows that retain little puddles on the sill with the worst damp problem. These actually sound like original rendered brick window sills. I have these too, and thought they were concrete until one was removed by a bricky. The plaster turned out to be only a skim of 3-4 mms on a sand/cement render. I assume that the builder did this to suppress the damp, but it is obviously ineffectual, so I hacked it all off - that turned out to quite a test for my cheapo Screwfix SDS+ drill, but was a dream compared to doing it by hand. I found the render to be covering a real mess of brickwork, but the main surprise was that the bricks were actually quite wet, the wettest being right under the sill. I surmise now that the problem IS that the sill is porous and water is percolating down from the sill becoming trapped between the (hopefully) waterproof cement render on the inside and outside surfaces. My money would be on water leaking in around the window or from the window's drainage. I am leaving it for a few days to see how this wet dries out, now that it can via the exposed inner brick surface. It takes weeks for wet walls to dry out. IIRC, it took about 6 weeks for the single brick front wall of my fireplace to dry out after I reopened the fireplace (blocked up with no ventilation for probably 20 years). What I need now is advice on is what to do to make good the inside wall. I am not convinced that re-rendering it is a good idea - I want to stop the damp at source, and the original render put on to contain it has not worked very well. Is a 'waterproof' rendering really waterproof? I suspect that under the pressure of a couple of feet of water inside the brickwork wet will seep through; or could it be that the builder didn't mix the render correctly? -- Andrew Gabriel |
#4
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Sounds like you have lousy sills which you should ideally replace
(particularly if they don't have a drip groove on the underside). If you prefer to modify the existing, you need to get a flat surface, preferably sloping away a fraction. Polyfilla Exterior filler is fairly easy to use as a skim although I would use car body filler if you can face the extra work. Then you need to get something genuinely waterproof on there. Pliolite paint is good but any solvent based paint will be better than conventional masonry paint, which is not at all waterproof IME. |
#5
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 23:58:30 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:24:16 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: The builder had replaced the original sash windows with uPVC, and the sills are now concrete, and I suspect the sill heights have been increased. These sills are not 'bought' concrete ones but appear to have been cast locally, possibly in-situ. The finish is pretty poor and the top surface seems to be hand trowelled and not very flat. In fact there are some hollows that retain little puddles on the sill with the worst damp problem. I gave both sills a thorough soaking with silicone fluid a couple of weeks ago and this soaked into them very readily, so I am wondering if they are porous (or were, before siliconing). It rather sounds like there is the problem right there, Phil. I had exactly the same situation in the first house that we bought, except it was the ground floor windows. The walls had been rendered following an injection damp treatment. I also did the soaking in silicone fluid thing. It did have some effect but water would still find its way past. In the end, the cills were taken out and replaced with proper ones and the problem stopped. Thanks Andy, that's encouraging to know I'm on the right track. On ours there was render instead of the special plaster normally recommended after a damp treatment. I ripped it all off. I haven't heard of that 'special plaster'. Is it water resistant in case the damp treatment didn't work, or just tolerant to being applied to still-wet brickwork? I thought these were the reasons for rendering, though I really can't see why one should render if the source damp is eliminated. The bricks being damp isn't that surprising. They could also be porous. If the dampness is in a patch below the cill then the implication is of water soaking down rather than through the bricks. I wasn't surprised that they got damp, just that they were STILL wet after the long dry spell we have had, interspersed with some baking sun on the wall. I'm presuming it is the render both sides that trapped the water and prevented it drying out over this period. What I need now is advice on is what to do to make good the inside wall. I am not convinced that re-rendering it is a good idea - I want to stop the damp at source, and the original render put on to contain it has not worked very well. Is a 'waterproof' rendering really waterproof? Certainly trapping any water behind any making good is asking for trouble. Yes, I aim to cure it at source. The problem is being sure of what the source is. I suspect that under the pressure of a couple of feet of water inside the brickwork wet will seep through; or could it be that the builder didn't mix the render correctly? I am also worried about the poor quality of the sills, and suppose that we may have to replace them if wet continues to enter the wall in spite of the silicone treatment. In one sense, not rendering the inside will at least allow me to quickly see if wet is still entering from outside, whereas I imagine rendering it will delay the occurrence of future damp but not totally stop it. I remember testing mine with a hose played on it for about half an hour. Even after the siliconing (which did help a bit), water continued to seep through. You mean it penetrated from the sill to the inside in 1/2hr? I am looking for a test method to prove it is the sill, as opposed to say leakage around the window frame, which I have recently re-sealed with a decent bead. I thought that it would take many hours or a few days to penetrate through. What is involved in replacing a sill should that be needed? To be honest, I didn't do it, a builder who was doing other work did. Basically though, it wasn't that difficult. He removed the window frame and then carefully chopped out the mortar from around the cill and removed and replaced it with a "new" one - actually a stone one from a reclamation place. No further trouble after that. These sills seem to butt up against the frame edge rather than go under the frame, and in one of the pair the sill is very high, nearly up to the uPVC drain outlet (about 1/4" clearance). I wonder if this could be a cement render on top of the actual sill - as per Andrew's post. I'll need to investigate that possibility next. Phil Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#7
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:23:57 +0100, "stuart noble"
wrote: Sounds like you have lousy sills which you should ideally replace Thanks for the input Stuart. Timescale is my problem for replacing them - see my reply above. (particularly if they don't have a drip groove on the underside). They do have drip grooves. If you prefer to modify the existing, you need to get a flat surface, preferably sloping away a fraction. The 'concrete' they are made of does seem to be fairly soft, and no obvious concrete-type gravel visible at the surface. I did wonder if I might be able to grind them down in-situ to get a decent run-off slope. We had our limestone frontage restored last year and the stonemasons used an air chisel to rough it back and a stone rasp to smooth it. I wonder if I might achieve similar on these sills with my small SDS chisel and/or an angle grinder if its not too hard. Don't know where to get hold of a stone rasp though. Polyfilla Exterior filler is fairly easy to use as a skim although I would use car body filler if you can face the extra work. By 'extra work' do you mean sanding it smooth after it has gone off? I had the impression that Polyfilla Exterior was not particularly durable or perhaps I'm biased by the interior stuff. Then you need to get something genuinely waterproof on there. I'm not clear why you suggest both a skim and a waterproof paint. Pliolite paint is good but any solvent based paint will be better than conventional masonry paint, which is not at all waterproof IME. That was my other question (see my reply above), so thanks - I will avoid conventional masonry paint. I'm not familiar with Pliolite though - what is it? By 'any solvent based paint' is that as in ordinary gloss woodwork paint? Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#8
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:40:53 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote: Thanks Andy, that's encouraging to know I'm on the right track. On ours there was render instead of the special plaster normally recommended after a damp treatment. I ripped it all off. I haven't heard of that 'special plaster'. Is it water resistant in case the damp treatment didn't work, or just tolerant to being applied to still-wet brickwork? I've been trying to find what the reason for the special plaster (although I don't think it's very special) is. THe standard procedure with injected dampcourses has been to rip off plaster to a height of about 1 metre, treat and then replaster with this stuff. It may have something to do with preventing migration of salts, but I can't remember now - I don't think it was to stop damp though. Even then I don't think that this would apply to an upstairs situation. I thought these were the reasons for rendering, though I really can't see why one should render if the source damp is eliminated. The bricks being damp isn't that surprising. They could also be porous. If the dampness is in a patch below the cill then the implication is of water soaking down rather than through the bricks. I wasn't surprised that they got damp, just that they were STILL wet after the long dry spell we have had, interspersed with some baking sun on the wall. I'm presuming it is the render both sides that trapped the water and prevented it drying out over this period. Sounds like it, so it seems to me that the important thing is to identify and fix and test that the damp through the bricks really is eliminated and then replaster. Trapping water in the brick seems like a bad idea to me. What I need now is advice on is what to do to make good the inside wall. I am not convinced that re-rendering it is a good idea - I want to stop the damp at source, and the original render put on to contain it has not worked very well. Is a 'waterproof' rendering really waterproof? Certainly trapping any water behind any making good is asking for trouble. Yes, I aim to cure it at source. The problem is being sure of what the source is. I suspect that under the pressure of a couple of feet of water inside the brickwork wet will seep through; or could it be that the builder didn't mix the render correctly? I am also worried about the poor quality of the sills, and suppose that we may have to replace them if wet continues to enter the wall in spite of the silicone treatment. In one sense, not rendering the inside will at least allow me to quickly see if wet is still entering from outside, whereas I imagine rendering it will delay the occurrence of future damp but not totally stop it. I remember testing mine with a hose played on it for about half an hour. Even after the siliconing (which did help a bit), water continued to seep through. You mean it penetrated from the sill to the inside in 1/2hr? I am looking for a test method to prove it is the sill, as opposed to say leakage around the window frame, which I have recently re-sealed with a decent bead. I thought that it would take many hours or a few days to penetrate through. It was in a few minutes, it was so bad. In this particular situation, the house faced a park and the wind would drive the rain at the front of the house. Once it started raining and the wind was blowing a bit, even in quite light rain the wall would become wet. What is involved in replacing a sill should that be needed? To be honest, I didn't do it, a builder who was doing other work did. Basically though, it wasn't that difficult. He removed the window frame and then carefully chopped out the mortar from around the cill and removed and replaced it with a "new" one - actually a stone one from a reclamation place. No further trouble after that. These sills seem to butt up against the frame edge rather than go under the frame, and in one of the pair the sill is very high, nearly up to the uPVC drain outlet (about 1/4" clearance). I wonder if this could be a cement render on top of the actual sill - as per Andrew's post. I'll need to investigate that possibility next. Could be - i.e. a poor repair to an old cill. Phil Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
#9
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
"stuart noble" wrote in message ...
Sounds like you have lousy sills which you should ideally replace (particularly if they don't have a drip groove on the underside). If you prefer to modify the existing, you need to get a flat surface, preferably sloping away a fraction. Polyfilla Exterior filler is fairly easy to use as a skim although I would use car body filler if you can face the extra work. Then you need to get something genuinely waterproof on there. Pliolite paint is good but any solvent based paint will be better than conventional masonry paint, which is not at all waterproof IME. Just to offer an alternative based on my own experience. I was suffering something similar with 3 windows built in an extension and went through some of the steps mentioned. It was only in some weather circumstances that there was leakage. What I did notice is that the window cills didn't have a drip - they were sealed with silicon or something to the concrete cill but the actual drip part of the wooden cill appeared to have been removed when the windows were installed; the only reason I can think of for this is to make it easier for applying the external render. I re-created the drip with an add-on to the wooden cill and the problem has never reappeared after 10 years. Rob |
#10
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 18:10:09 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:40:53 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: I've been trying to find what the reason for the special plaster (although I don't think it's very special) is. THe standard procedure with injected dampcourses has been to rip off plaster to a height of about 1 metre, treat and then replaster with this stuff. It may have something to do with preventing migration of salts, but I can't remember now - I don't think it was to stop damp though. Even then I don't think that this would apply to an upstairs situation. I found this http://www.travisperkins.co.uk/PDF/848737.pdf "Thistle Dri-Coat: A cement-based undercoat plaster for application after installation of a damp-proof course." Doesn't say why it should be used though. Also this helpful chart about which plaster to use on which surface http://www.british-gypsum.com/immediacy-1331 indicates Thistle Browning with suction control (my internal brickwork looks pretty soft/porous). buildingpreservation explains, I think, what you are getting at regarding "migration of salts" at http://www.buildingpreservation.com/...ng%20facts.htm I don't think salts are a significant problem in my case though, more applicable to long term heavy dampness it seems. I read somewhere that the background to use is Bonding, not Browning as Bonding is lightweight with vermiculite bits in it, whereas Browning is sand based, and now obsolete. Don't know how that squares with the Thistle chart which does call it browning. ... I really can't see why one should render if the source damp is eliminated. Answering myself, the buildingpreservation paper explains this, and as I say, I Don't think it necessary for my problem. Anyone diss/agree? Sounds like it, so it seems to me that the important thing is to identify and fix and test that the damp through the bricks really is eliminated and then replaster. Trapping water in the brick seems like a bad idea to me. I certainly don't plan to trap water! I remember testing mine with a hose played on it for about half an hour. Even after the siliconing (which did help a bit), water continued to seep through. You mean it penetrated from the sill to the inside in 1/2hr? I am looking for a test method to prove it is the sill, as opposed to say leakage around the window frame, which I have recently re-sealed with a decent bead. I thought that it would take many hours or a few days to penetrate through. It was in a few minutes, it was so bad. In this particular situation, the house faced a park and the wind would drive the rain at the front of the house. Once it started raining and the wind was blowing a bit, even in quite light rain the wall would become wet. Surely that must have been a direct leak through a crack or something. This damp took a long to appear and equally long to fade back when the warmer weather came. My worry is what is the upper limit of time it might take to get through rather less porous material. In other words how long do I have to soak the outside and wait inside for signs before I decide that is NOT the source? OK, I know there can be no definitive answer to that one - finger in the wind territory! These sills seem to butt up against the frame edge rather than go under the frame, and in one of the pair the sill is very high, nearly up to the uPVC drain outlet (about 1/4" clearance). I wonder if this could be a cement render on top of the actual sill - as per Andrew's post. I'll need to investigate that possibility next. Could be - i.e. a poor repair to an old cill. I'll be trying to determine if its just a render, or concrete throughout, in the next couple of days. Thanks again everyone for thought provoking inputs. I'll let you know any developments. By the way, should it come to sill replacement, is it essential to remove the frame or is that just to improve access, i.e. allow access from inside the room as well. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#11
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 20 Jun 2004 14:16:35 -0700, (Rob Graham)
wrote: Just to offer an alternative based on my own experience. I was suffering something similar with 3 windows built in an extension and went through some of the steps mentioned. It was only in some weather circumstances that there was leakage. What I did notice is that the window cills didn't have a drip - they were sealed with silicon or something to the concrete cill but the actual drip part of the wooden cill appeared to have been removed when the windows were installed; the only reason I can think of for this is to make it easier for applying the external render. I re-created the drip with an add-on to the wooden cill and the problem has never reappeared after 10 years. Thanks Rob, but mine do have drip channels already. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#12
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Hi,
If you want a good sealer for the concrete sill have a look at Bondaglass G4 eg: http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/products/details/180.html Worth trying a sample area though to see what it looks like. cheers, Pete. |
#13
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:47:07 +0100, Pete C
wrote: If you want a good sealer for the concrete sill have a look at Bondaglass G4 eg: http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/products/details/180.html That's an interesting one - a pond sealer. Should be waterproof then! Not sure about the colour though, Browny translucent, Mid Green, or Black. Could over paint it I suppose. Thanks for the pointer. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#14
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
In article ,
Phil Addison writes: On 20 Jun 2004 01:05:33 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: These actually sound like original rendered brick window sills. I have these too, and thought they were concrete until one was removed by a bricky. That is most interesting, Andrew. I have not heard of that construction before. Do you mean original brickwork sills, rendered at a later date? Rendered when built. All the houses in the terrace have the same sills (1895). The render is very hard -- I was bashing away with a scraper on it to get 100 years of paint off, and it doesn't damage or even mark it. It is vulnerable if the render cracks though -- water can get in and then freeze in the brickwork, causing large chunks of the brickwork to fall off, which had happened on one of mine. I didn't think sand/cement render was available that early (1890's) or Cement goes back to roman times. However, prior to Portland cement, it was more expensive, so it wasn't used for everything like it is today. am I wrong there? If it is rendered brick, I may be able to remove and replace the render with proper waterproofer additive and hopefully make a better finish of the slope. I think the only way the sill will be letting water in is if there are cracks in the render. I'm going to have a good look at that and perhaps drill to see if I can hit brick. My daughter would be relieved not to have the upheaval of new sills. On the other hand, the sills do look like cast ones - there is evidence of framework marks on the front, and there is a cast drip channel underneath. Mine also has a drip channel. It's a bit far back for my liking though. I am leaving it for a few days to see how this wet dries out, now that it can via the exposed inner brick surface. It takes weeks for wet walls to dry out. IIRC, it took about 6 weeks for the single brick front wall of my fireplace to dry out after I reopened the fireplace (blocked up with no ventilation for probably 20 years). Hopefully not that long as there is only about a height of 2ft of bricks below the sill to dry out. Your fireplace presumably had wet brickwork to a much greater height replenishing the opening as it evaporated from there? It was about a 2' square (plus much of the bricked up area which was removed). It was quite waterlogged though. What I need now is advice on is what to do to make good the inside wall. I am not convinced that re-rendering it is a good idea - I want to stop the damp at source, and the original render put on to contain it has not worked very well. Is a 'waterproof' rendering really waterproof? I suspect that under the pressure of a couple of feet of water inside the brickwork wet will seep through; or could it be that the builder didn't mix the render correctly? Given that I have exposed a 4' x 2' patch of brickwork, what is the appropriate materials to make this good? I was planning on a background of Carlite Browning with a skim of finish or multi-finish. Any hints anyone? If you stop the water entry and let it all dry out, you can use pretty much anything (personally, I use bonding coat as the scratch coat). However, none of the gypsom-based plasters are suitable if it's damp. I have done a scratch (base) coat of cement (and lime if you like it) and sand in a 1:1:6 ratio, with waterproofer added. Follow up 24 hours later with regular plaster finish coat (no PVA required unless you leave it much longer and the scratch coat has dried). The sand and cement is very effective at keeping the water away from the plaster finish coat. However, you'll probably need to let the wall dry out first, at least so it doesn't feel and look wet. -- Andrew Gabriel |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
By 'extra work' do you mean sanding it smooth after it has gone off? That and polyester being generally sticky and difficult to work with. had the impression that Polyfilla Exterior was not particularly durable As a skim, more durable than any cement based mix I'm not clear why you suggest both a skim and a waterproof paint. Skim to get it smooth/flat and provide a better base for the paint. I'm not familiar with Pliolite though- what is it? A type of synthetic rubber I believe. Macphersons, Johnstones, and most of the other trade outlets do it. Based on solvent naptha so not too environmentally friendly. By 'any solvent based paint' is that as in ordinary gloss woodwork paint? Yep, although a matt might look better on sills. Mine are coated in red oxide primer which is quite a good match for adjacent brickwork. |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message If you want a good sealer for the concrete sill have a look at Bondaglass G4 eg: http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/products/details/180.html That's an interesting one - a pond sealer. Should be waterproof then! Not sure about the colour though, Browny translucent, Mid Green, or Black. Could over paint it I suppose. Thanks for the pointer. I think a fibreglass resin would be better. G4 cures on contact with moisture which may not be a good thing if the concrete is damp close to the surface. Foul stuff to work with too. |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:57:45 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:47:07 +0100, Pete C wrote: If you want a good sealer for the concrete sill have a look at Bondaglass G4 eg: http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/products/details/180.html That's an interesting one - a pond sealer. Should be waterproof then! Not sure about the colour though, Browny translucent, Mid Green, or Black. Could over paint it I suppose. Thanks for the pointer. Hi, I think the tranlucent is more like a varnish colour. Another possibility is a UV stabilised clear expoxy. cheers, Pete. |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message . ..
My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did big snip I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here Phil. It's almost certain that your problems are due to the outside rendering and the poor detailing/workmanship of the window. If you have a strong mix on the external wall (3:1) or in that region, then it's virtually waterproof. (BRE say mix strength this will hold back hydrostatic pressure). Any water that gets behind it has nowhere to go to get out but through your internal walls. You say that you have hairline cracks and also that the wall is on an exposed elevation. Put these two together and add it to the poor detailing of the cill – has he for instance just plonked it between the reveals or is it inset. Is there a good seal to it, is there a dpc beneath it, are you sure the drip mould works? The question of the internal rendering is a red herring. It could be plaster or render, as long as it isn't repeat isn't waterproof then it's probably doing its job. If it were waterproof, the water would slowly but surely go further and further down your wall until a big rust red mushroom popped up between the floor joists. Check the render, check the detail, keep the water out and you'll be OK. Easy when it's said like that in't it Regards Patrick |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 21 Jun 2004 09:05:57 -0700, (Meoww) wrote:
Phil Addison wrote in message . .. My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did big snip I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here Phil. It's almost certain that your problems are due to the outside rendering and the poor detailing/workmanship of the window. Must admit I tended to discount the external render because on the whole face of the house there is damp coming through only under the sills of 3 windows (sorry, didn't mention the downstairs one before - that is only a minor patch similar to the 2nd upstairs one). I imagine if the render was duff it would come through in arbitrary places. But what you say is quite possible, and I have rectified the useless seal between frame and reveal and sill. The problem is finding out which of the possible entry points is the cause. Although there is a hairline vertical crack under the worst window, now that I have exposed the brickwork inside it is clear that the wettest course is the one right under the sill, getting progressively less wet until it is dry at skirting level. That seems to point the finger at either the sill itself or the sill/frame interface where I did find wet behind the old sealant as I removed it. If you have a strong mix on the external wall (3:1) or in that region, then it's virtually waterproof. (BRE say mix strength this will hold back hydrostatic pressure). Any water that gets behind it has nowhere to go to get out but through your internal walls. I understand that, but I have no idea what the external mix was. Is it possible to test it somehow? You say that you have hairline cracks and also that the wall is on an exposed elevation. Put these two together and add it to the poor detailing of the cill – has he for instance just plonked it between the reveals or is it inset. I don't know quite what you mean. The frame is set about 3" in from the inner wall surface with a narrow (about 3") inner wood sill. The external reveal is about 6" deep. Is there a good seal to it, There is a good seal all round now. is there a dpc beneath it, Where should this dpc be? Directly under the sill I suppose. I don't know if there is one. How can I find out? Good point though - if there was a dpc it wouldn't matter if the sill was porous, right? are you sure the drip mould works? Well, I'm not SURE the drip channel works but it looks OK and is not obstructed. I could run a hose over the sill to check. The question of the internal rendering is a red herring. It could be plaster or render, as long as it isn't repeat isn't waterproof then it's probably doing its job. If it were waterproof, the water would slowly but surely go further and further down your wall until a big rust red mushroom popped up between the floor joists. It was rendered internally, as I say, and clearly WAS trapping water. I have hacked it off under the window now. It was pretty hard stuff, and I guess waterproof (ish!) as it was dry on the surface and the bricks behind were damp. Also the render I hacked off didn't appear obviously damp - I'm pretty sure it was dry. I say "ish" because some damp did penetrate and showed on the decoration. Check the render, check the detail, keep the water out and you'll be OK. Easy when it's said like that in't it Err, yes :-) Thanks again for the ideas Patrick. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:51:07 +0100, Pete C
wrote: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:57:45 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:47:07 +0100, Pete C wrote: If you want a good sealer for the concrete sill have a look at Bondaglass G4 eg: http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/products/details/180.html That's an interesting one - a pond sealer. Should be waterproof then! Not sure about the colour though, Browny translucent, Mid Green, or Black. Could over paint it I suppose. Thanks for the pointer. Hi, I think the tranlucent is more like a varnish colour. Another possibility is a UV stabilised clear expoxy. Is that 'paint-on' or spread as a skim? Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message . ..
On 21 Jun 2004 09:05:57 -0700, (Meoww) wrote: Phil Addison wrote in message . .. My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did big snip I think you might be barking up the wrong tree here Phil. It's almost certain that your problems are due to the outside rendering and the poor detailing/workmanship of the window. big snip two It sounds like you're on the right track if you've sealed the cill. The chances of it being porous are quite remote and if it is, you could probably cure this with a water repellant. It's difficult to envisage exactly what you've got but if you've removed the plasterwork from the inside, you should be able to see if there's a dpc there or not. However, if you can't see it, it could be quite a major job to put one in and you're probably better going along the sealing it all route. Make sure water can't blow in from underneath and from the sides and that's about all you can do. I presume you're making good these seals with mastic? From your description of where the wall is wet it certainly looks like the culprit is the cill and not the wall. Just don't re-plaster internally with a waterproof mix. Browning and skim will do quite nicely for inside. If you haven't cured the problem at least you'll be able to see its manifestations and not run the risk of wet/dry rot further down! You may get effloresence until it all dries out but wiping this off is easy and it'll stop when the brickwork is dry. Don't suppose you can post a photograph? Cheers Patrick |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 21 Jun 2004 00:38:51 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote: Cement goes back to roman times. However, prior to Portland cement, it was more expensive, so it wasn't used for everything like it is today. Thanks Andrew for clearing that up. I haven't been able to get up there on a ladder yet to have a closer look, but last time the sill material looked pretty recent. I think the only way the sill will be letting water in is if there are cracks in the render. If it IS rendered like yours! If you stop the water entry and let it all dry out, you can use pretty much anything (personally, I use bonding coat as the scratch coat). However, none of the gypsom-based plasters are suitable if it's damp. I understand why you can't use these if it is permanently damp, but do you mean you can't use them if there is still residual damp that is expected to dry out through the plaster. In other words must it be completely dry before using plaster as scratch coat? Is that why cement render often seem to be used after damp treatment, so that it can be applied straightaway to the still wet brickwork? I have done a scratch (base) coat of cement (and lime if you like it) and sand in a 1:1:6 ratio, with waterproofer added. Follow up 24 hours later with regular plaster finish coat (no PVA required unless you leave it much longer and the scratch coat has dried). The sand and cement is very effective at keeping the water away from the plaster finish coat. However, you'll probably need to let the wall dry out first, at least so it doesn't feel and look wet. Are you saying if it is not totally dry I should use that sand and cement mix rather than bonding plaster as the scratch coat? What is the problem if it is too wet; won't stick I suppose? Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:42:15 +0100, "stuart noble"
wrote: [snippage restored for continuity] On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:10:29 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 13:23:57 +0100, "stuart noble" wrote: Sounds like you have lousy sills which you should ideally replace If you prefer to modify the existing, you need to get a flat surface, preferably sloping away a fraction. The 'concrete' they are made of does seem to be fairly soft, and no obvious concrete-type gravel visible at the surface. I did wonder if I might be able to grind them down in-situ to get a decent run-off slope. We had our limestone frontage restored last year and the stonemasons used an air chisel to rough it back and a stone rasp to smooth it. I wonder if I might achieve similar on these sills with my small SDS chisel and/or an angle grinder if its not too hard. Don't know where to get hold of a stone rasp though. Polyfilla Exterior filler is fairly easy to use as a skim although I would use car body filler if you can face the extra work. By 'extra work' do you mean sanding it smooth after it has gone off? That and polyester being generally sticky and difficult to work with. Ahh, yes. See what you mean. I had the impression that Polyfilla Exterior was not particularly durable or perhaps I'm biased by the interior stuff. As a skim, more durable than any cement based mix That would make it prime candidate then - cheap, easy to apply and durable then. Is your preference for body filler because of its better adhesion to the sill? I must say I would not relish working with the latter if an easier alternative would do the job. Then you need to get something genuinely waterproof on there. I'm not clear why you suggest both a skim and a waterproof paint. Skim to get it smooth/flat and provide a better base for the paint. OK. Pliolite paint is good but any solvent based paint will be better than conventional masonry paint, which is not at all waterproof IME. That was my other question (see my reply above), so thanks - I will avoid conventional masonry paint. I'm not familiar with Pliolite though - what is it? A type of synthetic rubber I believe. Macphersons, Johnstones, and most of the other trade outlets do it. Based on solvent naptha so not too environmentally friendly. Thanks, found Pliolite here http://www.eliokem.com/prod_coatings_plc.php By 'any solvent based paint' is that as in ordinary gloss woodwork paint? Yep, although a matt might look better on sills. Mine are coated in red oxide primer which is quite a good match for adjacent brickwork. The adjacent walls are rendered in a yellowish spar, so a light colour would be OK. Think I prefer the idea of a specialist paint for longer life though. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
"Phil Addison" wrote in message ... On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:42:15 +0100, "stuart noble" wrote: Not comimg in via the roof, the damp/water you are seeing ? A friend of mine had a severe damp problem under the window cill of an upstairs windows of an 1890's (I think) house. After much faffing, plaster removal etc was traced to an "over generous" piece of roofing felt poking (and loose/missing tile) into a gutter and diverting water into the brick cavity. Water was running down the cavity, around the window frame, around the cill and re-appearing on the brick work under the cill. Fixing the roof/gutter problem stopped the damp. |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:40:43 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote: I think the tranlucent is more like a varnish colour. Another possibility is a UV stabilised clear expoxy. Is that 'paint-on' or spread as a skim? Hi, Probably best to put it on with a spreader and brush it out. Have a look for epoxy concrete or driveway sealers for some examples. If it's a concrete sealer it will need to have UV inhibitors. Also it's better to seal around the window after the cill has been sealed, most sealants stick better to a non porous surface, and if the sealant starts to come away there's less chance of water getting into the cill. cheers, Pete. |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
In article ,
Phil Addison writes: On 21 Jun 2004 00:38:51 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: Cement goes back to roman times. However, prior to Portland cement, it was more expensive, so it wasn't used for everything like it is today. Thanks Andrew for clearing that up. I haven't been able to get up there on a ladder yet to have a closer look, but last time the sill material looked pretty recent. So does mine;-) I think the only way the sill will be letting water in is if there are cracks in the render. If it IS rendered like yours! OK, or cracks in the casting;-) If you stop the water entry and let it all dry out, you can use pretty much anything (personally, I use bonding coat as the scratch coat). However, none of the gypsom-based plasters are suitable if it's damp. I understand why you can't use these if it is permanently damp, but do you mean you can't use them if there is still residual damp that is expected to dry out through the plaster. In other words must it be completely dry before using plaster as scratch coat? The problem is if it takes weeks to dry out, as it well might. That's long enough to damage the plaster. You end up with the finish coat looking permanently dark (like it was wet), and the rear turns to powder. You'll probably also get white powder salts growing on the surface as the water carries salts to the surface and evaporates leaving them behind (looks like white mold), but that just brushes off. If the wall is decorated, it doesn't come off so easily, and left in the decorations, I've heard it said it can have a hygroscopic effect, keeping the area slightly damp. Is that why cement render often seem to be used after damp treatment, so that it can be applied straightaway to the still wet brickwork? Maybe. More likely is that because damp treatment usually doesn't work because it's wrongly diagnosed, you have to make the finish waterproof to hide the damp. Most damp treatment companies seem to only have equipment for injecting a damp proof course, so the only thing they're likely to diagnose is rising damp, which mostly isn't the cause. The sand and cement render will project against damp wall (unless it's soaking wet), without injecting it. Another factor may be to prevent the plaster bridging the new injected damp course. Sand and cement should be OK for this (as always, assuming it has waterproofer added). It may not be possible to inject low enough to avoid bridging by internal finishes due to outside conditions. I have done a scratch (base) coat of cement (and lime if you like it) and sand in a 1:1:6 ratio, with waterproofer added. Follow up 24 hours later with regular plaster finish coat (no PVA required unless you leave it much longer and the scratch coat has dried). The sand and cement is very effective at keeping the water away from the plaster finish coat. However, you'll probably need to let the wall dry out first, at least so it doesn't feel and look wet. Are you saying if it is not totally dry I should use that sand and cement mix rather than bonding plaster as the scratch coat? What is the problem if it is too wet; won't stick I suppose? I haven't tried when its very wet, but that might be an issue. The suction might be non-existant, and the PVA coat might not soak in to the brickwork (could dilute it less perhaps and hope it mixes with the moisture at the surface). -- Andrew Gabriel |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 22 Jun 2004 00:56:54 -0700, (Meoww) wrote:
Phil Addison wrote in message . .. On 21 Jun 2004 09:05:57 -0700, (Meoww) wrote: Phil Addison wrote in message . .. My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did warn her!) big snip It sounds like you're on the right track if you've sealed the cill. The chances of it being porous are quite remote and if it is, you could probably cure this with a water repellant. Not sure about 'sealed', but I hope so. I sprayed them twice with stuff sold for treating penetration problems in walls. Can't recall the name at the moment. It's difficult to envisage exactly what you've got but if you've removed the plasterwork from the inside, you should be able to see if there's a dpc there or not. However, if you can't see it, it could be quite a major job to put one in and you're probably better going along the sealing it all route. Can't see it so far. Make sure water can't blow in from underneath and from the sides and that's about all you can do. I presume you're making good these seals with mastic? That is possible. I didn't put a bead under the sill or at the vertical edge. Perhaps that would be a good idea. I used Unibond silicone from B&Q, about £7 a tube. From your description of where the wall is wet it certainly looks like the culprit is the cill and not the wall. Just don't re-plaster internally with a waterproof mix. Browning and skim will do quite nicely for inside. If you haven't cured the problem at least you'll be able to see its manifestations and not run the risk of wet/dry rot further down! You may get effloresence until it all dries out but wiping this off is easy and it'll stop when the brickwork is dry. I like the 'when' :-) Don't suppose you can post a photograph? Hi everyone. Hope these photos are useful. I took them yesterday. This is the inside wall http://www.pando.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Damp/Wall.htm and these are some shots of the sill taken with camera poked through the upper opener, and through the glass http://www.pando.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Damp/Sill.htm You can see the wall construction is a bit odd (in the tall edge-on photo). The top 3 courses are not flush with the rest and protrude about 1/2" into the room. The 4th course from the top protrudes about 1/4". That, and the different colour of the top 3 courses makes me suspect the original sash went lower that the recent uPVC frame. The darker brick at the top are also the dampest, but I think they might be getting slightly drier now they have been exposed a few days. Heavy rain tonight should be interesting but I don't expect to be able to get round there again before the weekend. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:50:38 +0100, "Ian Middleton"
wrote: "Phil Addison" wrote in message ... On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:42:15 +0100, "stuart noble" wrote: Not comimg in via the roof, the damp/water you are seeing ? No. She has had an attic conversion which completely replaced the roof over there, and it didn't cure the damp. A friend of mine had a severe damp problem under the window cill of an upstairs windows of an 1890's (I think) house. After much faffing, plaster removal etc was traced to an "over generous" piece of roofing felt poking (and loose/missing tile) into a gutter and diverting water into the brick cavity. Water was running down the cavity, around the window frame, around the cill and re-appearing on the brick work under the cill. Fixing the roof/gutter problem stopped the damp. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:23:16 +0100, Pete C
wrote: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 23:40:43 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: I think the tranlucent is more like a varnish colour. Another possibility is a UV stabilised clear expoxy. Is that 'paint-on' or spread as a skim? Hi, Probably best to put it on with a spreader and brush it out. Have a look for epoxy concrete or driveway sealers for some examples. If it's a concrete sealer it will need to have UV inhibitors. Also it's better to seal around the window after the cill has been sealed, most sealants stick better to a non porous surface, and if the sealant starts to come away there's less chance of water getting into the cill. Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? Pete, I did put the new silicone bead seal around AFTER treating the sill. Guess it will have to come off again if I DO need to paint/spread/skim with some other stuff as well. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 22 Jun 2004 23:08:51 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote: In article , Phil Addison writes: On 21 Jun 2004 00:38:51 GMT, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote: Cement goes back to roman times. However, prior to Portland cement, it was more expensive, so it wasn't used for everything like it is today. Thanks Andrew for clearing that up. I haven't been able to get up there on a ladder yet to have a closer look, but last time the sill material looked pretty recent. So does mine;-) ;-) I think the only way the sill will be letting water in is if there are cracks in the render. If it IS rendered like yours! OK, or cracks in the casting;-) I meant I'm not convinced it is that construction, but I haven't had a chance to test it further for brick innards. If you stop the water entry and let it all dry out, you can use pretty much anything (personally, I use bonding coat as the scratch coat). However, none of the gypsom-based plasters are suitable if it's damp. I understand why you can't use these if it is permanently damp, but do you mean you can't use them if there is still residual damp that is expected to dry out through the plaster. In other words must it be completely dry before using plaster as scratch coat? The problem is if it takes weeks to dry out, as it well might. That's long enough to damage the plaster. You end up with the finish coat looking permanently dark (like it was wet), and the rear turns to powder. You'll probably also get white powder salts growing on the surface as the water carries salts to the surface and evaporates leaving them behind (looks like white mold), but that just brushes off. If the wall is decorated, it doesn't come off so easily, and left in the decorations, I've heard it said it can have a hygroscopic effect, keeping the area slightly damp. That makes sense. Is that why cement render often seem to be used after damp treatment, so that it can be applied straightaway to the still wet brickwork? Maybe. More likely is that because damp treatment usually doesn't work because it's wrongly diagnosed, you have to make the finish waterproof to hide the damp. Most damp treatment companies seem to only have equipment for injecting a damp proof course, so the only thing they're likely to diagnose is rising damp, which mostly isn't the cause. The sand and cement render will project against damp wall (unless it's soaking wet), without injecting it. Oh aren't we cynics here :-). My daughter had two quotes from builders before I got volunteered to look at it. First guy said to hack off the plaster, and render it with sand/cement. He didn't notice apparently that it was already done and the plaster skim so thin in places you could actually eyeball the cement!! Second guy was sure it just needed silicone fluid treatment outside. Another factor may be to prevent the plaster bridging the new injected damp course. Sand and cement should be OK for this (as always, assuming it has waterproofer added). It may not be possible to inject low enough to avoid bridging by internal finishes due to outside conditions. True. I suppose there are some outside conditions that can't be rectified, but on here we would rectify them and not need the injection. I have done a scratch (base) coat of cement (and lime if you like it) and sand in a 1:1:6 ratio, with waterproofer added. Follow up 24 hours later with regular plaster finish coat (no PVA required unless you leave it much longer and the scratch coat has dried). The sand and cement is very effective at keeping the water away from the plaster finish coat. However, you'll probably need to let the wall dry out first, at least so it doesn't feel and look wet. Are you saying if it is not totally dry I should use that sand and cement mix rather than bonding plaster as the scratch coat? What is the problem if it is too wet; won't stick I suppose? I haven't tried when its very wet, but that might be an issue. The suction might be non-existant, and the PVA coat might not soak in to the brickwork (could dilute it less perhaps and hope it mixes with the moisture at the surface). I see. I'm now thinking of leaving it open for a few weeks or till its obviously drying before doing more. Thanks again everyone for such excellent details. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message ... That would make it prime candidate then - cheap, easy to apply and durable then. Is your preference for body filler because of its better adhesion to the sill? I must say I would not relish working with the latter if an easier alternative would do the job. Body filler is also cheap if you get it from a car paint trade outlet. Around a tenner for 3.5 kgs IIRC. It does have better adhesion and has the advantage of being waterproof without being tacky. However it is a bitch to use in this sort of situation. I find loads of hardboard scraps useful. Use them as a base for mixing and as an applicator, and chuck them for each mix. Only mix what you can apply in, say, 2 minutes (which isn't a lot for detailed work). A basic resin without filler (fibreglass resin) is very easy to use and has the same benefits. Thanks, found Pliolite here http://www.eliokem.com/prod_coatings_plc.php The adjacent walls are rendered in a yellowish spar, so a light colour would be OK. Think I prefer the idea of a specialist paint for longer life though. Johnstones had Magnolia on special offer recently ("Stormguard"), which made it virtually the same price as standard masonry paint. As an aside, it occurs to me that those cheap paving slabs are "concrete", yet water goes straight through them. |
#32
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message ... Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? 'Fraid so. These products are usually siloxanes which, unlike silicone, don't form a continuous film. They cure as microscopic pellets of grease/rubber which can be dislodged by (although not soluble in) water. Same stuff they use for dpc injection I think. |
#33
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message . ..
My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did warn her!!) who had done it up to re-sale. There was no sign of damp then, it all being freshly decorated. Hi If the builder rendered the whole place that is something of a caution sign. You dont generally render without good reason - although unfortunately some fools do. Walls are often rendered when its too much work to fix problems with them. Assuming the sills are in fact concrete, my big question now is how do I prove that it is (or is not) the sill before embarking on replacing them. You could just water proof them. I'm doubtful this would be achieved with silicone fluid. Tarred surfaces stay waterproof far longer than oil based paints and so on. You cant easily paint over tar though. Any waterproof paint would do for a while, but really you want something with good long life, as water penetration again would do a lot of damage. And ideally use internal plaster that lets any dampness dry, like lime plaster. But only once the wall's properly dried. More likely is that because damp treatment usually doesn't work because it's wrongly diagnosed, you have to make the finish waterproof to hide the damp. Most damp treatment companies seem to only have equipment for injecting a damp proof course, so the only thing they're likely to diagnose is rising damp, which mostly isn't the cause. The sand and cement render will project against damp wall (unless it's soaking wet), without injecting it. Oh aren't we cynics here :-). many are rather gullible unfortunately. My daughter had two quotes from builders before I got volunteered to look at it. First guy said to hack off the plaster, and render it with sand/cement. He didn't notice apparently that it was already done and the plaster skim so thin in places you could actually eyeball the cement!! Second guy was sure it just needed silicone fluid treatment outside. I wouldnt expect either to solve the problem. I wonder if I might achieve similar on these sills with my small SDS chisel and/or an angle grinder if its not too hard. Don't know where to get hold of a stone rasp though. no Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? Penetration is liable to be patchy. ust admit I tended to discount the external render because on the whole face of the house there is damp coming through only under the sills of 3 windows (sorry, didn't mention the downstairs one before - that is only a minor patch similar to the 2nd upstairs one). I imagine if the render was duff it would come through in arbitrary places. But what you say is quite possible, and I have rectified the useless seal between frame and reveal and sill. The problem is finding out which of the possible entry points is the cause. There arent by any chance cracks spreading out from some of the corners of the windows are there? If so, this picture might start adding right up. 1890s, soft brick, rendered, cracks at window corners, brickwork in poor condition under the render and wet: classic. If that is the deal, a possible explanation may be: 1. Mortar between bricks in such poor state that the wall begins to move and crack 2. Bad mortar also allows driving rain to penetrate easily 3. Cracks start appearing in wall 4. Quick bodge fix for all of the above is to apply render. The solution to this is to repair all the pointing - but there are important caveats with that. If that is your situation do get some more input before pulling render off, which may cause serious damage. where should this dpc be? Directly under the sill I suppose. I don't know if there is one. How can I find out? Good point though - if there was a dpc it wouldn't matter if the sill was porous, right? Any water penetration anywhere can be expected to freeze and slowly disintegrate whatever its freezing in. It sounds like you're on the right track if you've sealed the cill. The chances of it being porous are quite remote and if it is, you could probably cure this with a water repellant. Not sure about 'sealed', but I hope so. I sprayed them twice with stuff sold for treating penetration problems in walls. Can't recall the name at the moment. Sounds questionable to me. I used Unibond silicone from B&Q, about £7 a tube. try toolstation.com, something like 1.50 IIRC Good luck. Regards, NT |
#34
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message . ..
On 22 Jun 2004 00:56:54 -0700, (Meoww) wrote: snip I'll taken even money you've cured it! Another potential culprit was the actual seal of the window with the cill but it looks like you've done that one too! If your rain today was like our rain today, you'll know pretty soon 0)) Keep us posted Patrick p.s. do you do weddings too - excellent photos ;-) |
#35
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:23:35 GMT, Phil Addison
wrote: Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? Hi, Make a little 'dam' of blu tack on the cill, fill it with water and see what happens. Also might be worth pouring some water on the sill and checking any runoff doesn't flow round onto the render beneath. Could be worth treating those areas with silicone if you haven't done already. Another possibility is that water is getting into the render next to the window and soaking down past the edge of the cil, so it could be worth treating those areas too. Finally, if you've treated the cill itself with silicone you might have a job getting anything else to stick to it cheers, Pete. |
#36
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:29:39 +0100, "stuart noble"
wrote: Phil Addison wrote in message ... Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? 'Fraid so. Had a look at it after some rain and was pleased to see droplets rolling around on the sill. I appreciate it may not last very long though (any estimates?) These products are usually siloxanes which, unlike silicone, don't form a continuous film. They cure as microscopic pellets of grease/rubber which can be dislodged by (although not soluble in) water. Same stuff they use for dpc injection I think. Are you sure? I'm no chemist but once talked to the chemi-lab of the makers of Solignum when I was injecting it as a dpc. They told me that the stuff is not intended (indeed does not) fill up the pores of the bricks, but coats the internal surfaces of the pores with a very thin layer which changes the surface tension so that water does not rise past it. The upshot of this is that you can repeat the treatment if the first was inadequate. See http://groups.google.com/groups?as_u....demon.co.u k for 1997 post. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#37
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 23 Jun 2004 10:35:49 -0700, (Meoww) wrote:
Phil Addison wrote in message . .. On 22 Jun 2004 00:56:54 -0700, (Meoww) wrote: snip I'll taken even money you've cured it! That's what I like to hear - fingers crossed eh? Another potential culprit was the actual seal of the window with the cill but it looks like you've done that one too! If your rain today was like our rain today, you'll know pretty soon 0)) Keep us posted Had a look at it after some rain and was pleased to see droplets rolling around on the sill. I appreciate it may not last very long though (any estimates?) Patrick p.s. do you do weddings too - excellent photos ;-) No, I wouldn't dare. (*blush*) Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#38
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:11:41 +0100, Pete C
wrote: On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:23:35 GMT, Phil Addison wrote: Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? Make a little 'dam' of blu tack on the cill, fill it with water and see what happens. I like that idea - very neat. I've got a packet of plasticine left from the 'glass-slip' condensation vs damp test. Wonder if that'll stick well enough. If not I'll buy a pack of blutak (hate the stuff normally - wrecks the wallpaper when the family get their hands on it!). Also might be worth pouring some water on the sill and checking any runoff doesn't flow round onto the render beneath. Could be worth treating those areas with silicone if you haven't done already. Another possibility is that water is getting into the render next to the window and soaking down past the edge of the cil, so it could be worth treating those areas too. Yep, did all that, sprayed pretty much everything in site. The spray that got on the glass was a bugger to get off though. Meths and lots of elbow grease shifted it in the end. White spirit might have been better but didn't have any on site. Finally, if you've treated the cill itself with silicone you might have a job getting anything else to stick to it Doh... You mean like blutak or plasticene!!! cheers, Pete. Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#39
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
On 23 Jun 2004 04:48:41 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:
Phil Addison wrote in message . .. My daughter's house has had a patch of damp appearing under the upstairs windows since she bought the house 5 years ago from a builder (I did warn her!!) who had done it up to re-sale. There was no sign of damp then, it all being freshly decorated. Hi If the builder rendered the whole place that is something of a caution sign. You dont generally render without good reason - although unfortunately some fools do. Walls are often rendered when its too much work to fix problems with them. Eeek. I'll do some exploratory drilling to check the extent of this. Must say the brickwork under the patch I exposed is pretty ropey. I was going to repoint it before plastering, ut maybe I should render it (with no waterproofer additive) as well after all to bind it all together? OTOH, it only has a few courses to self support just there. Assuming the sills are in fact concrete, my big question now is how do I prove that it is (or is not) the sill before embarking on replacing them. You could just water proof them. I'm doubtful this would be achieved with silicone fluid. Had a look at it after some rain and was pleased to see droplets rolling around on the sill. I appreciate it may not last very long though (any estimates?) Tarred surfaces stay waterproof far longer than oil based paints and so on. You cant easily paint over tar though. I wasn't reckoning on tarring it - don't think my daughter would appreciate that. Any waterproof paint would do for a while, but really you want any idea how long. As I say, it is done now with silicone, but I anticipate having to redo it unless I put an overcoat of something on, such as one of those recommended in this thread. something with good long life, as water penetration again would do a lot of damage. And ideally use internal plaster that lets any dampness dry, like lime plaster. But only once the wall's properly dried. What is lime plaster? More likely is that because damp treatment usually doesn't work because it's wrongly diagnosed, you have to make the finish waterproof to hide the damp. Most damp treatment companies seem to only have equipment for injecting a damp proof course, so the only thing they're likely to diagnose is rising damp, which mostly isn't the cause. The sand and cement render will project against damp wall (unless it's soaking wet), without injecting it. Oh aren't we cynics here :-). many are rather gullible unfortunately. My daughter had two quotes from builders before I got volunteered to look at it. First guy said to hack off the plaster, and render it with sand/cement. He didn't notice apparently that it was already done and the plaster skim so thin in places you could actually eyeball the cement!! Second guy was sure it just needed silicone fluid treatment outside. I wouldnt expect either to solve the problem. I wonder if I might achieve similar on these sills with my small SDS chisel and/or an angle grinder if its not too hard. Don't know where to get hold of a stone rasp though. no OK, have given up that idea. Hmmm... I've just realised that everyone seems to be assuming that the sill is still porous. Don't forget I have given a very generous sloshing with silicone fluid. I WAS hoping you'd all say that should be OK, but the only comment on is from Andy saying his only helped a bit. Is it the case you all think that stuff was a waste of time? Penetration is liable to be patchy. ust admit I tended to discount the external render because on the whole face of the house there is damp coming through only under the sills of 3 windows (sorry, didn't mention the downstairs one before - that is only a minor patch similar to the 2nd upstairs one). I imagine if the render was duff it would come through in arbitrary places. But what you say is quite possible, and I have rectified the useless seal between frame and reveal and sill. The problem is finding out which of the possible entry points is the cause. There arent by any chance cracks spreading out from some of the corners of the windows are there? If so, this picture might start adding right up. 1890s, soft brick, rendered, cracks at window corners, brickwork in poor condition under the render and wet: classic. Well, there are some cracks around. I have already had to tie in the gable end wall (not where these windows are) that was found to be leaning out a bit when the loft conversion was done. I'll have a closer look at the corners next week, but I don't think we are in this scary scenario. If that is the deal, a possible explanation may be: 1. Mortar between bricks in such poor state that the wall begins to move and crack 2. Bad mortar also allows driving rain to penetrate easily 3. Cracks start appearing in wall 4. Quick bodge fix for all of the above is to apply render. May well be, but with spar outside and *if* it is all rendered inside, difficult to be sure. The solution to this is to repair all the pointing - but there are important caveats with that. If that is your situation do get some more input before pulling render off, which may cause serious damage. Absolutely. I have no intention of getting into that (I hope!). where should this dpc be? Directly under the sill I suppose. I don't know if there is one. How can I find out? Good point though - if there was a dpc it wouldn't matter if the sill was porous, right? Any water penetration anywhere can be expected to freeze and slowly disintegrate whatever its freezing in. Right. So a dpc under the sill is not the answer, so the sill must be waterproofed. It sounds like you're on the right track if you've sealed the cill. The chances of it being porous are quite remote and if it is, you could probably cure this with a water repellant. Not sure about 'sealed', but I hope so. I sprayed them twice with stuff sold for treating penetration problems in walls. Can't recall the name at the moment. Sounds questionable to me. Just have to wait and see if it dries out, or the 'blutak dam' tells me anything. I used Unibond silicone from B&Q, about £7 a tube. try toolstation.com, something like 1.50 IIRC Thanks. Noted for next time. Good luck. Regards, NT Phil The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/ Remove NOSPAM from address to email me |
#40
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Damp under upstairs window. Porous sill?
Phil Addison wrote in message ... Had a look at it after some rain and was pleased to see droplets rolling around on the sill. I appreciate it may not last very long though (any estimates?) IME 6 months or so. These products are usually siloxanes which, unlike silicone, don't form a continuous film. They cure as microscopic pellets of grease/rubber which can be dislodged by (although not soluble in) water. Same stuff they use for dpc injection I think. Are you sure? I'm no chemist but once talked to the chemi-lab of the makers of Solignum when I was injecting it as a dpc. They told me that the stuff is not intended (indeed does not) fill up the pores of the bricks, but coats the internal surfaces of the pores with a very thin layer which changes the surface tension so that water does not rise past it. The upshot of this is that you can repeat the treatment if the first was inadequate. I'm no chemist either but www.sovchem.co.uk might give you some ideas. |
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